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Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
2030
   |
Posted - 2014.10.10 23:58:00 -
[61] - Quote
Lady Thanatos wrote:Jarod Garamonde wrote:Plus, ISBoxer fleets make quality players not want to play.
By continuing to allow ISBoxers to do what they do, you're risking driving loyal players away from the game, in favor of a guy with 20 accounts who's just going to end up quitting when the next hot-ticket MMO goes live. Don't think so highly of yourself. If you are complaining about ISBoxers you are not a "quality" player.
I may not be particularly good at this game, but I fancy myself a "quality player". I care about the community, I interact with other players as they deserve to be interacted with, and I am respectful but honest with the devs.
I've been with EVE in one form or another from the beginning, and I will hopefully be there when it's time for EVE to say good-bye to us all.
I am neither doomsayer nor white knight. I am a member of this community. There are plenty of players, ISBoxer or not, that are not and have no interest with being involved in the social aspect of the game. They are just like the RMT crowd.... they don't care about the game, or any of us. ISBoxers are solely responsible for this nerf, and a playstyle that used to be fun is going to suffer because of them.
Dave Stark wrote:source, if you'd be so kind?
Read this thread. Plenty of people are saying it, in not-so-many words.
That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... |
JC Anderson
State Protectorate
Caldari State
1164
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 01:28:00 -
[62] - Quote
For those of you who forgot, anything is better than the way they once were.
Couldn't fit covert ops cloaking devices, used cruise missiles, and the stealth bomber skill effected how fast you could fly when cloaked as well as a modifier to allow you to tear up small and fast ships using cruise missiles.
They actually moved faster cloaked than unclocked with stealth bomber 5. But could not warp cloaked since they couldn't fit the cov ops. :(
Regardless, when did bombers start becoming an issue? Is it primarily the decloak issue, or is it the bombs that people are complaining about? |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
DARKNESS.
2258
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 03:18:00 -
[63] - Quote
JC Anderson wrote:For those of you who forgot, anything is better than the way they once were.
Couldn't fit covert ops cloaking devices, used cruise missiles, and the stealth bomber skill effected how fast you could fly when cloaked as well as a modifier to allow you to tear up small and fast ships using cruise missiles.
They actually moved faster cloaked than unclocked with stealth bomber 5. But could not warp cloaked since they couldn't fit the cov ops. :(
Regardless, when did bombers start becoming an issue? Is it primarily the decloak issue, or is it the bombs that people are complaining about?
Idk, I recall something about bombers being able to blap frigates in the olden days. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6441
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 03:22:00 -
[64] - Quote
JC Anderson wrote:Regardless, when did bombers start becoming an issue? Is it primarily the decloak issue, or is it the bombs that people are complaining about?
If you've been vaporized by Boat and you know he and like 15 guys are giggling madly as the killmails of your elitepvp fits are splattered all over fleetchat
Yeah
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
2030
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 03:38:00 -
[65] - Quote
JC Anderson wrote:For those of you who forgot, anything is better than the way they once were.
Couldn't fit covert ops cloaking devices, used cruise missiles, and the stealth bomber skill effected how fast you could fly when cloaked as well as a modifier to allow you to tear up small and fast ships using cruise missiles.
They actually moved faster cloaked than unclocked with stealth bomber 5. But could not warp cloaked since they couldn't fit the cov ops. :(
Regardless, when did bombers start becoming an issue? Is it primarily the decloak issue, or is it the bombs that people are complaining about?
It's the ISBoxers. Period.
ISBoxer needs the banhammer.
That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... |
Kalissis
123
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 04:18:00 -
[66] - Quote
ISBoxer are nearly not affected by this, you can just adjust your configuration. Other not so strict bomber groups are done for, Bombers Bar bombing runs RIP. |
Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
2030
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 04:40:00 -
[67] - Quote
Kalissis wrote:ISBoxer are nearly not affected by this, you can just adjust your configuration. Other not so strict bomber groups are done for, Bombers Bar bombing runs RIP.
To be fair, Bombers Bar was done for, when DNS Black decided it would be a totally awesome idea to involve his nullsec alliance in DUST.
That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... |
Dalto Bane
V I R I I
Ineluctable.
146
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 05:37:00 -
[68] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5108193#post5108193
We are getting way off topic. I have created a thread to continue the ISBoxer discussion so that we can get back on track. Come at me bro
Dalto Bane for CSM10- Getting an early start. -á-My posts are my platform
|
Josef Djugashvilis
2595
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 06:51:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ocih wrote:Jarod Garamonde wrote:It's simple.... we ban the ISBoxers. And it removes a lot of issues in EVE. When 5 guys can symphony slaughter 200 actual players the game becomes a poopsock. It's a form of botting and everyone knows it.
Apart from CCP...
This is not a signature. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6442
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 06:59:00 -
[70] - Quote
Kalissis wrote:ISBoxer are nearly not affected by this, you can just adjust your configuration. Other not so strict bomber groups are done for, Bombers Bar bombing runs RIP.
The future is fleets of bombers where you have 5 multiboxers?
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4335
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 11:15:00 -
[71] - Quote
I'm all for the nerfs as long as it continues causing moxnix to sperg out about "the cartels" some more. This change shouldn;t really make much of a difference to guys who are actually good at bombing runs, just to multiboxers controlling them all through fleet warps alone, so sounds like a good change.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Crimson Draufgange
Extreme Overkill Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 20:51:00 -
[72] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Just remove bombs aoe.
They explode on impact. Deal even more damage. Like 15-20k alpha. Now you have bombs.
Like they did with Doomsdays, which, by the way, are being enabled in low sec.
Bombs in low sec, please please please please please please.
- Crimson Draufgange, CEO of Extreme Overkill Inc. |
Spy 21
Infidelia Black
222
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 21:49:00 -
[73] - Quote
Milan Nantucket wrote:I have had bombs chucked at me. They need a buff because i have yet to be blowed up by one.
I did blow myself up once...
.... or twice
S
Obfuscation for the WIN on page 3... |
Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
130
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 22:55:00 -
[74] - Quote
Crimson Draufgange wrote:
Bombs in low sec, please please please please please please.
I would find this fantastically fun. It will make the learning curve for high sec newbies venturing into low sec even steeper.
|
Freako X
Doom Inc
149
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 23:49:00 -
[75] - Quote
Perhaps there are plans for different types of bombers:
1. Torpedo only.
2. Rapid heavy.
3. Bomb only (lower delay or multiple launchers)
4. Current version.
5. Capital torp (1 - 2 launchers)
Maybe a combat only version with no recon stealth bonus (more hp and resists)
Or maybe they are updating med, lower slot lay-out, changes to fitting, mass, etc so that nemesis and manticore are as frequently used as purifier or hound. Maybe remove damage type bonus and move to generic? |
Crimson Draufgange
Extreme Overkill Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 02:45:00 -
[76] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Crimson Draufgange wrote:
Bombs in low sec, please please please please please please.
I would find this fantastically fun. It will make the learning curve for high sec newbies venturing into low sec even steeper.
It would be a ton of fun! The learning curve wouldn't be to bad. Did I mention the fun?
- Crimson Draufgange, CEO of Extreme Overkill Inc. |
JC Anderson
State Protectorate
Caldari State
1167
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 07:15:00 -
[77] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Idk, I recall something about bombers being able to blap frigates in the olden days.
Old bonuses on them were to moving while cloaked speed, and then the other mucked around with explosion velocity when you fired at small ships... Or maybe it increased their signature radius. I can't remember the exact method that was used. |
JC Anderson
State Protectorate
Caldari State
1167
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 07:19:00 -
[78] - Quote
Spy 21 wrote:Milan Nantucket wrote:I have had bombs chucked at me. They need a buff because i have yet to be blowed up by one. I did blow myself up once... .... or twice S
Always funny to see the final blow on a loss mail listed as the very same person who had their ship explode. :P |
Oxide Ammar
165
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 07:33:00 -
[79] - Quote
JC Anderson wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:
Idk, I recall something about bombers being able to blap frigates in the olden days.
Old bonuses on them were to moving while cloaked speed, and then the other mucked around with explosion velocity when you fired at small ships... Or maybe it increased their signature radius. I can't remember the exact method that was used.
I watched multiple old youtube videos of bombers with cruise missiles, they were able to instant blap frig at 0 m/s
Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing. |
Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
87
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 07:56:00 -
[80] - Quote
I like cookies. |
Vel'drinn
Sol Research and Development
Aurora Foundation
37
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 11:06:00 -
[81] - Quote
Covert cloakies decloaking each other would suck by proximity. As is you have the challenge level of one dude failing to engage his cloak in large fleets wrecking a shot at a bombing run. Fleet movements are not going to be manageable in anything greater than a squad. I don't get the regression in mechanics, these fleets are DESIGNED to be sneaky and people are not supposed to like them. This is especially true for anchored fleets.
This is just going to making covert fleets annoying to fly. You won't have time to get everyone setup on their own tacs and bomb spots before bombing fleets. The battlefield may change too much in that time but its more about the time to set things up properly.
Warpins at range by squad to launch bombs is going to expose the whole fleet a lot more. I'm sure bomber FCs are getting nightmares thinking about it. Decloaking is simply going to take a lot of fun with bomber fleets right out. Pulling off a good run takes planning and skill. The concepts are simple enough but those that consistently pull them off know the intricacies of bombing runs and the limitations of the most fragile frigates in game.
Furthermore, bombers are a weapon in the world of coalitions that allow the few to take on the many. I would like to get a dev blog that really highlights 'the problem' as all I see here are distractions towards other issues. |
Vel'drinn
Sol Research and Development
Aurora Foundation
39
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 11:06:24 -
[82] - Quote
Covert cloakies decloaking each other would suck by proximity. As is you have the challenge level of one dude failing to engage his cloak in large fleets wrecking a shot at a bombing run. Fleet movements are not going to be manageable in anything greater than a squad. I don't get the regression in mechanics, these fleets are DESIGNED to be sneaky and people are not supposed to like them. This is especially true for anchored fleets.
This is just going to making covert fleets annoying to fly. You won't have time to get everyone setup on their own tacs and bomb spots before bombing fleets. The battlefield may change too much in that time but its more about the time to set things up properly.
Warpins at range by squad to launch bombs is going to expose the whole fleet a lot more. I'm sure bomber FCs are getting nightmares thinking about it. Decloaking is simply going to take a lot of fun with bomber fleets right out. Pulling off a good run takes planning and skill. The concepts are simple enough but those that consistently pull them off know the intricacies of bombing runs and the limitations of the most fragile frigates in game.
Furthermore, bombers are a weapon in the world of coalitions that allow the few to take on the many. I would like to get a dev blog that really highlights 'the problem' as all I see here are distractions towards other issues. |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
257
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 11:42:00 -
[83] - Quote
Here is some peoples train of thought...
Item X killed me x number of times. This means X is over powered and needs a nerf because I couldn't possibly be the problem... |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
304
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 11:42:20 -
[84] - Quote
Here is some peoples train of thought...
Item X killed me x number of times. This means X is over powered and needs a nerf because I couldn't possibly be the problem... |
Decian Cor
Disconnected.
Ineluctable.
179
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 00:52:00 -
[85] - Quote
I think any talk of removing AOE from bombs is ridiculously stupid.
What do you think a bomb is? Bombs are literally MEANT to be area of effect. That's why when you drop a JDAM on some insurgents, you have to be cognizant of the blast radius and the surrounding buildings and area, friendlies, etc. If you want to remove bombs all together, then do so. But don't take away the effects of a BOMB, and still try to call it a BOMB.
TL; DR ban ISKboxing.
Unfiltered for the masses.
http://imgur.com/mzSl1Ie |
Decian Cor
Trust Doesn't Rust
Triumvirate.
191
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 00:52:28 -
[86] - Quote
I think any talk of removing AOE from bombs is ridiculously stupid.
What do you think a bomb is? Bombs are literally MEANT to be area of effect. That's why when you drop a JDAM on some insurgents, you have to be cognizant of the blast radius and the surrounding buildings and area, friendlies, etc. If you want to remove bombs all together, then do so. But don't take away the effects of a BOMB, and still try to call it a BOMB.
TL; DR ban ISKboxing.
[u]Unfiltered for the masses.[/u]
http://imgur.com/mzSl1Ie
|
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland
Test Alliance Please Ignore
831
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 14:44:00 -
[87] - Quote
There is nothing wrong with the cloaking mechanics for bombers. The problem is not bombers, covert cloaks, or even ISBoxer (in this case). The number of bombers that can be ISBoxed successfully is limited by the number of bombs that can be simultaneously launched before they start destroying each other. That number is exactly 8. If your fleet was destroyed by a single squad of bombers, it was because you don't know how bombs work, how to mitigate their damage, or how to craft a fleet that can survive it. This is why shield doctrines are so rare in nulsec these days.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Concussion_Bomb
FACT: Each bomb has a 99.5% armor resistance to its own damage type an nothing to other damage types.
FACT: Each bomb has 240 armor HP and 50 structure HP. No shields.
FACT: Each bomb does between 6400 and 8000 damage based on skills and whether it is loaded in its matching racial bomber.
FACT: Each Stealth Bomber has a +5% damage bonus to bombs of its racial damage type per Covert Ops skill level.
FACT: Every bomb has an explosion radius of 400 meters. (This is not the same as its AoE, which is 15km.)
FACT: Every bomb has a signature radius of 400 meters.
This means with the minimum skills required (covops 1) a bomb will do 6400 damage to bombs of other types (instantly annihilating every other type of bomb within 15km), and exactly 6400*(1-.995)=32 damage to its own type. So it will take 240/32=7.5 (rounded to 8) bombs to destroy another bomb of the same type. If there are enough bonused bombs, that number will be reduced to 7.
Therefore, only as many as 8 bombs can be launched in the same direction from the same location at once before they start destroying each other, which means that an ISBoxed bomber fleet is limited to 8 bombers. If your fleet can't take 8 bombs, you're doing it wrong.
Since armor doctrines tend to have much smaller signature radii than shield doctrines (400 being the magic number), they are now the dominant tanking type in nulsec due to reduced bomb damage. Hence, baltec fleet, AHACs, etc.
There are a number of defenses to bombs.
- If you kill the bomber that launched the bomb before it detonates, the bomb will not detonate.
- If you destroy the bomb before it detonates... duh. They have a 400sigRad and very few HP. Zap them.
- If your dictors surround your fleet with bubbles, bombers will have a very hard time engaging you because they won't be able to warp at the proper ranges, and/or they may get caught and die.
- For God's sake turn off your microwarp drive. They increase your signature radius by a huge amount.
- Don't try to MJD out. It also increases your sigrad. By the time you see the bombs and activate it, its too late. (Server ticks OP.)
In short, bombs are powerful but only when used properly. Both bombs and bombers are fragile and easily destroyed. They have multiple counters. The only issue I see is how bombs have pushed shield doctrines out despite the obvious counters. I believe this is more a problem with the penalties given to shield extenders and shield rigs in relation to the damage application formula.
For example, a typical Rokh with 3x CDFEs and 1 LSE will have a 592m signature radius before links. A max-skilled and mindlinked Claymore can reduce this to 388 meters. A Baltec Megathron will have a base sigRad of 380 meters. Holy crap, that a big difference. Now add in the armor equivalent Eos-links and that gets further reduced to 249 meters. The Rokh gets almost no reduction to bomb damage. Yet the Mega gets a ~37.5% reduction.
Armor tanks have skills that reduce their penalties. Why do shields not have skills to reduce their sigRad penalties? CCP, give us a skill to reduce the sigRad penalty of shield extenders. There is already one for shield rigs. (Shield Rigging)
GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥
-Grath Telkin, 2014.
Free PASTA! |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland
The 99 Percent
891
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 14:44:11 -
[88] - Quote
There is nothing wrong with the cloaking mechanics for bombers. The problem is not bombers, covert cloaks, or even ISBoxer (in this case). The number of bombers that can be ISBoxed successfully is limited by the number of bombs that can be simultaneously launched before they start destroying each other. That number is exactly 8. If your fleet was destroyed by a single squad of bombers, it was because you don't know how bombs work, how to mitigate their damage, or how to craft a fleet that can survive it. This is why shield doctrines are so rare in nulsec these days.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Concussion_Bomb
FACT: Each bomb has a 99.5% armor resistance to its own damage type an nothing to other damage types.
FACT: Each bomb has 240 armor HP and 50 structure HP. No shields.
FACT: Each bomb does between 6400 and 8000 damage based on skills and whether it is loaded in its matching racial bomber.
FACT: Each Stealth Bomber has a +5% damage bonus to bombs of its racial damage type per Covert Ops skill level.
FACT: Every bomb has an explosion radius of 400 meters. (This is not the same as its AoE, which is 15km.)
FACT: Every bomb has a signature radius of 400 meters.
This means with the minimum skills required (covops 1) a bomb will do 6400 damage to bombs of other types (instantly annihilating every other type of bomb within 15km), and exactly 6400*(1-.995)=32 damage to its own type. So it will take 240/32=7.5 (rounded to 8) bombs to destroy another bomb of the same type. If there are enough bonused bombs, that number will be reduced to 7.
Therefore, only as many as 8 bombs can be launched in the same direction from the same location at once before they start destroying each other, which means that an ISBoxed bomber fleet is limited to 8 bombers. If your fleet can't take 8 bombs, you're doing it wrong.
Since armor doctrines tend to have much smaller signature radii than shield doctrines (400 being the magic number), they are now the dominant tanking type in nulsec due to reduced bomb damage. Hence, baltec fleet, AHACs, etc.
There are a number of defenses to bombs.
- If you kill the bomber that launched the bomb before it detonates, the bomb will not detonate.
- If you destroy the bomb before it detonates... duh. They have a 400sigRad and very few HP. Zap them.
- If your dictors surround your fleet with bubbles, bombers will have a very hard time engaging you because they won't be able to warp at the proper ranges, and/or they may get caught and die.
- For God's sake turn off your microwarp drive. They increase your signature radius by a huge amount.
- Don't try to MJD out. It also increases your sigrad. By the time you see the bombs and activate it, its too late. (Server ticks OP.)
In short, bombs are powerful but only when used properly. Both bombs and bombers are fragile and easily destroyed. They have multiple counters. The only issue I see is how bombs have pushed shield doctrines out despite the obvious counters. I believe this is more a problem with the penalties given to shield extenders and shield rigs in relation to the damage application formula.
For example, a typical Rokh with 3x CDFEs and 1 LSE will have a 592m signature radius before links. A max-skilled and mindlinked Claymore can reduce this to 388 meters. A Baltec Megathron will have a base sigRad of 380 meters. Holy crap, that a big difference. Now add in the armor equivalent Eos-links and that gets further reduced to 249 meters. The Rokh gets almost no reduction to bomb damage. Yet the Mega gets a ~37.5% reduction.
Armor tanks have skills that reduce their penalties. Why do shields not have skills to reduce their sigRad penalties? CCP, give us a skill to reduce the sigRad penalty of shield extenders. There is already one for shield rigs. (Shield Rigging)
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
|
Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
2259
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 09:16:12 -
[89] - Quote
Remember that one time when I said
Jarod Garamonde wrote:It's simple.... we ban the ISBoxers.
and then it happened?
Good times.
That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...
[#savethelance]
|
Ormand Audel
14th Legion
The Bloc
13
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 09:55:54 -
[90] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Armor tanks have skills that reduce their penalties. Why do shields not have skills to reduce their sigRad penalties? CCP, give us a skill to reduce the sigRad penalty of shield extenders. There is already one for shield rigs. (Shield Rigging) Because shields have passive regen is my guess.
E: Actually, I thought about that a bit more and the equivalent of passive regen for armor is the large buffer.. So I suppose a skill makes sense?
And Jarod, ISBoxer isn't being banned. Certain features are, but it's not isboxer specific. |
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