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Apochix	Posted - 2006.08.14 08:44:00 - [31] This sounds more like one of those arguements where people who have been playing the game longer just can't believe they're being handily defeated by younger players. "Guys, it's not fair, we have 30 million skill points each, and fly in 200 million isk ships. That alone should cause their ships to explode into billions of particles of tritanium without us firing a shot." Anyway, I also agree with everyone else that ECM needs a nerf. However it only needs one more update to make it right. It should only be allowed on ships built for ECM. This means blackbird, scorpion, rook and falcon. Oh, and that little caldari frig that nobody ever uses. Fitting a Domi with nos, jammers, a huge tank and heavy drones is a little overkill IMO. However, guess what guys?! This wouldn't affect us at all, SINCE WE USE ECM SPECIFIC SHIPS. Sorry we haven't been around the game long enough to have our egos self-inflated by the number of our skill points, otherwise we may use our deimos' and pilgrim's to pop thrashers and rookie ships too.
Mirasta Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.14 08:50:00 - [32] Originally by: Aram Gishno Now you know what all those people you've ganked felt like :) <carebear> Leave me alone! I want to play the game my way! And I want to fit lots and lots of expanders! <pirate> Muahahahahha! Too bad for you, adapt and fit stabs, use a scout and instas or die you little fluffy carebear! Adapt! <carebear> but.. but.. you killed my ship! I'm sure you can see the irony :) I LOLed
Wheya Amarr Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen	Posted - 2006.08.14 09:08:00 - [33] I find the anti-multispectral comments rather amusing. You think multispectrals are bad? Imagine you and your corp would restrict yourself to ships of one race only because of roleplay reasons (what a strange idea). Of course your enemies knows it and therefore fit adequate racial jammers. That's bad. My utmost respect to PIE and 1PG who still fight under this conditions. I do not. I enjoy the industrial aspect of EVE instead. PvP is dead. It's only outblobbing and EW and... don't get me started talking about other issues.
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.14 09:26:00 - [34] Edited by: Sir Juri on 14/08/2006 09:33:40 Its not just ECM beeing powerfull with no skills and using it on frigates/cruisers. Lets not forget the tech2 ECM fitted scorpion with both multi spec and racials failing to jam a tech1 cruiser with no eccm for 5-6cycles when its a jamming boat, and with good skills Actually I had more succesfull jamming with a ship thats not a scorpion. edit; But I do think ecm/electronic warfare should be a big part of the game just as guns and a tank is. Just need to think of a new way to implement ecm so its not just about "luck", it shouldnt be a lottery. And I dont think ecm and other forms of electronic warfare should be limited to a few ships, every ship should be able to use it, offcourse not as good. damn need to make a new sig...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.14 09:30:00 - [35] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 09:31:54 ECM needs to be for EW ships only. If ccp feels that some normal ships needs ecm to have a fighting chance, they have not reached balance in my opinion. I would like to compare this with the stunning effect in other games like WoW actually. Did you happen to see anyone stunned for 30 seconds in WoW, and then stunned again after 10 more seconds for another 30? And all it takes to do this is basicly one multispectral. You dont gimp your ship in any significant way either, since all it takes is one slot. You throw it on there and usually it works a few times in a fight. Its overpowered as hell and ccp should feel ashamed for not hotfixing this fast. I dont know why they dont see this as a major problem with the game. I think it is. Edit: Tuxford has said they are looking into it, but not when. Its probably not being fixed for Kali One... I dont even think Kali One will be on time with its current features. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kinsy Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.14 09:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Leilani Solaris AYDS are ghey, they blobbed my zealot On another note, NERF ECM! /me whistles...
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.14 09:39:00 - [37] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 09:31:54 ECM needs to be for EW ships only. If ccp feels that some normal ships needs ecm to have a fighting chance, they have not reached balance in my opinion. I would like to compare this with the stunning effect in other games like WoW actually. Did you happen to see anyone stunned for 30 seconds in WoW, and then stunned again after 10 more seconds for another 30? And all it takes to do this is basicly one multispectral. You dont gimp your ship in any significant way either, since all it takes is one slot. You throw it on there and usually it works a few times in a fight. Its overpowered as hell and ccp should feel ashamed for not hotfixing this fast. I dont know why they dont see this as a major problem with the game. I think it is. Edit: Tuxford has said they are looking into it, but not when. Its probably not being fixed for Kali One... I dont even think Kali One will be on time with its current features. I believe electronic warfare including ecm should not be limited only to specific ships. I think that would be unfair and boring tbh. Guns/tank/ecm/nos and everything else, gives more depth and tactics in the game. Game would be boring if you pick up caracal for instance and said, okey lets fit missiles and a tank... hmm thats all folks! But they need to change it from that stupid "lottery" system. Make it with something that has stats more tangeable like guns/tank/nos/trackin disruptor etc. Dampeners need to be changed some to. And fitting one ECM should be like fitting one gun, not more. damn need to make a new sig...
Mung Face	Posted - 2006.08.14 09:47:00 - [38] It's true all of us in AYDS are quite terrible at EVE which is one of the main reasons why we use ECM. At the moment we currently have two ships dedicated to jamming targets while we discuss (over ventrilo for faster communication) the best way we should activate our modules on targets. EVE is quite an intense game as far as reactions go, there is so much to do whilst fighting so we figured if targets are jammed we won't have to worry about getting hit by them, then can discuss the best way to hit the F1-F8 keys to eliminate targets. Some of us are still quite new to combat, I sometimes get to F3 and forget what to do next and have to start all over but Gilb is always friendly and helps me out, he is really a great leader. Sorry to all the people we have angered, from now on we will not be using ECM but instead flying our 2.5m combat SP Tech 1 cruisers straight into battleships etc to die and hopefully will one day become as good as you guys are (any helpful tips are also appreciated as we are indeed quite new to this game). Love, Mung Face.
Boonaki Caldari Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.08.14 09:55:00 - [39] Bring 2 carriers, covert ops, and sensor boosted inties. Camp the gates (on top of the gates) as soon as they warp in (or your covert ops find their safes) the sensor boosted inties attack them with their fighters. With a stab/ecm setup the fighters will shred them rather quickly. Fear the Ibis of doom!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.14 09:55:00 - [40] Originally by: Sir Juri I believe electronic warfare including ecm should not be limited only to specific ships. I think that would be unfair and boring tbh. Guns/tank/ecm/nos and everything else, gives more depth and tactics in the game. Game would be boring if you pick up caracal for instance and said, okey lets fit missiles and a tank... hmm thats all folks! But they need to change it from that stupid "lottery" system. Make it with something that has stats more tangeable like guns/tank/nos/trackin disruptor etc. Dampeners need to be changed some to. And fitting one ECM should be like fitting one gun, not more. Nobody is suggesting removing nos, tracking disruptors, target painters, dampeners or any other form of electronic warfare from normal ships. The game would still have loads of tactical options open. Its very frustrating. Also you can have lots of "fun" in a frigate gang where you use multispectrals and dampeners in combination. Even if a cycle fails, the dampeners will make sure the other ship doesnt regain the lock until its way too late. Ravens with a full rack of ecm modules and wcs in the lows... dominix with nos and ecm... its not even funny anymore. People dont use the ships in the way they were originally designed because ecm is so powerful its always better than tanking. You think its boring to not have ecm on normal ships? Well, its pretty boring to bring a battleship into a fight and dont get to fire a single gun too, before dying. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:03:00 - [41] ECM is fecked at the moment and needs a good beating with a nerf bat. I liked the suggestion of a cooldown, using that coupled with a non chance based way of using them would be best imo. As for the suggestion that ECM be a caldari only feature (people only ever mention BB, Scorp, Rook and Falcon) that would be extremely crappy ... they should get quite a large bonus to ECM modules but not be the only people who can fit it. (and I loled as well to the carebear comparison )
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:07:00 - [42] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 09:56:12 Originally by: Sir Juri I believe electronic warfare including ecm should not be limited only to specific ships. I think that would be unfair and boring tbh. Guns/tank/ecm/nos and everything else, gives more depth and tactics in the game. Game would be boring if you pick up caracal for instance and said, okey lets fit missiles and a tank... hmm thats all folks! But they need to change it from that stupid "lottery" system. Make it with something that has stats more tangeable like guns/tank/nos/trackin disruptor etc. Dampeners need to be changed some to. And fitting one ECM should be like fitting one gun, not more. Nobody is suggesting removing nos, tracking disruptors, target painters, dampeners or any other form of electronic warfare from normal ships. The game would still have loads of tactical options open. ECM in its current form is very overpowered. Also you can have lots of "fun" in a frigate gang where you use multispectrals and dampeners in combination. Even if a cycle fails, the dampeners will make sure the other ship doesnt regain the lock until its way too late. Ravens with a full rack of ecm modules and wcs in the lows... dominix with nos and ecm... its not even funny anymore. People dont use the ships in the way they were originally designed because ecm is so powerful its always better than tanking. You think its boring to not have ecm on normal ships? Well, its pretty boring to bring a battleship into a fight and dont get to fire a single gun too, before dying. I dont dissagree with that. But they should be able to create a new ECM system which will still allow non jamming boats to use it. One that works in a new way. Its not fun to not fire one shot it happens to me many times in ravens to, but we should be able to have both. Both ecm for everyone but not as good as now and making jamming boats better, no stupid lottery but then much more crap when used on normal ships. Well I dont have a clue how to fix it really all I want is no stupid lottery. Fact is a jamming boat should be uber at jamming. And I dont want ECM to be as good on non jamming boats, but still a viable option. And I want ECM/dampeners to be a part of EVE as much as guns/tank, but again in a better system then the one that is existing now. Oh and dont forget to whine about dampeners to.. if they fix ecm without fixing dampeners we will see a million threads about those the next day damn need to make a new sig...
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:13:00 - [43] Originally by: Sir Juri I believe electronic warfare including ecm should not be limited only to specific ships. I think that would be unfair and boring tbh. Guns/tank/ecm/nos and everything else, gives more depth and tactics in the game. Game would be boring if you pick up caracal for instance and said, okey lets fit missiles and a tank... hmm thats all folks! If ecm brings more "depth" why does every man and his drone (get it? :P) use it? ecm en masse = win button. Look at the tournament, wouldn't it be fun if everyone only fought with guns missiles for a change? when you discourage blobbing you bring about fun for everyone. I want to go into fights knowing that i have a chance at winning. Not as it is now where ihave to weigh up their numbers and factor in each ship probably has ecm... therefore i need equal numbers or slightly less to engage with a chance of not being jammed the entire fight.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:15:00 - [44] Fine. Lets just make ecm modules have about 10% chance to jam when used against a battleship on a normal ship. But when used on EW ships, ship bonuses makes this 50% instead. That would be fine with me. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Larsson7 Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:19:00 - [45] If we look at covert cloaking or strip miners as an example of how ECM should possibly work, this is a possible alternative. Make ECM something silly like 1000 PG each with a 99% reduction for ECM specialised ships (Scorp, Rook, Falcon, Blackbird) Warping into fights to be jammed by 25 ships all packing ecm is absurd.
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:19:00 - [46] Originally by: eLLioTT wave Originally by: Sir Juri I believe electronic warfare including ecm should not be limited only to specific ships. I think that would be unfair and boring tbh. Guns/tank/ecm/nos and everything else, gives more depth and tactics in the game. Game would be boring if you pick up caracal for instance and said, okey lets fit missiles and a tank... hmm thats all folks! If ecm brings more "depth" why does every man and his drone (get it? :P) use it? ecm en masse = win button. Look at the tournament, wouldn't it be fun if everyone only fought with guns missiles for a change? when you discourage blobbing you bring about fun for everyone. I want to go into fights knowing that i have a chance at winning. Not as it is now where ihave to weigh up their numbers and factor in each ship probably has ecm... therefore i need equal numbers or slightly less to engage with a chance of not being jammed the entire fight. Read my whole post plz. I dont like the way ECM is implemented now in its current form/system. But if balanced better perhaps a whole new way then yes I do think it brings more depth into the game. If you cant handle more factors then shoot/tank, well then im sorry, but you should have to. guns och bara en massa tank=I CS:source damn need to make a new sig...
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:20:00 - [47] Originally by: Larsson7 If we look at covert cloaking or strip miners as an example of how ECM should possibly work, this is a possible alternative. Make ECM something silly like 1000 PG each with a 99% reduction for ECM specialised ships (Scorp, Rook, Falcon, Blackbird) Warping into fights to be jammed by 25 ships all packing ecm is absurd. Every ship I seen from your corp packs ECM, especially your megathrons damn need to make a new sig...
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:26:00 - [48] Originally by: Larsson7 If we look at covert cloaking or strip miners as an example of how ECM should possibly work, this is a possible alternative. Make ECM something silly like 1000 PG each with a 99% reduction for ECM specialised ships (Scorp, Rook, Falcon, Blackbird) no no no no no no no (and no) That kind of scenario would lead to all new players selecting caldari as they would then be without a shadow of doubt be the 1 win button (eve on easy mode already) (as for your first point, covert cloaks fit on two ships of all races and strip miners were a new training tree for all races)
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:32:00 - [49] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Originally by: Larsson7 If we look at covert cloaking or strip miners as an example of how ECM should possibly work, this is a possible alternative. Make ECM something silly like 1000 PG each with a 99% reduction for ECM specialised ships (Scorp, Rook, Falcon, Blackbird) no no no no no no no (and no) That kind of scenario would lead to all new players selecting caldari as they would then be without a shadow of doubt be the 1 win button (eve on easy mode already) (as for your first point, covert cloaks fit on two ships of all races and strip miners were a new training tree for all races) No they wouldnt. The caldari EW ships were designed to have low firepower while being good at jamming. Thats why they are good in groups and not solo pwnmobiles. You get the solo pwnmobiles when you can use multispectrals on dominix and raven. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:43:00 - [50] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Radioactive Babe Originally by: Larsson7 If we look at covert cloaking or strip miners as an example of how ECM should possibly work, this is a possible alternative. Make ECM something silly like 1000 PG each with a 99% reduction for ECM specialised ships (Scorp, Rook, Falcon, Blackbird) no no no no no no no (and no) That kind of scenario would lead to all new players selecting caldari as they would then be without a shadow of doubt be the 1 win button (eve on easy mode already) (as for your first point, covert cloaks fit on two ships of all races and strip miners were a new training tree for all races) No they wouldnt. The caldari EW ships were designed to have low firepower while being good at jamming. Thats why they are good in groups and not solo pwnmobiles. You get the solo pwnmobiles when you can use multispectrals on dominix and raven. My point is that the Caldari race would be overpowered, you would be insane to go against a mostly caldari fleet in any other races ships (when the new tier3 BS's come out Caldari will be overpowered as it is - wont show immediately as most caldari pilots have poorish hybrid gun skills)
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:46:00 - [51] Originally by: Radioactive Babe My point is that the Caldari race would be overpowered, you would be insane to go against a mostly caldari fleet in any other races ships (when the new tier3 BS's come out Caldari will be overpowered as it is - wont show immediately as most caldari pilots have poorish hybrid gun skills) Caldari are designed to be the high tech race and have the only EW battleship in the game. Its very easy for anyone to train for a scorpion no matter what race you ship fly. Takes 1 week maybe? So your idea of racial fleets are pretty foreign in this game. Its never caldari vs gallente fleets etc. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tas Devil JUDGE DREAD Inc. Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:49:00 - [52] My god the OP is useless... I'd really like to see a 7 man gang all fitted with multi's kill and equal number of experienced PVPers even if they didn't fit EW... perhaps your problem is you thought you'd pawn them straight up and are going to fight them alone and unprepared ? The best Laugh ever ... Credit goes to Killer8 for this ! Oh and apparently the mods tell me there is bad language on his site so beware kids :)
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:52:00 - [53] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 10:21:17 Fine. Lets just make ecm multispectrals have about 10% chance to jam (when fully skilled in signal dispersion) when used against a battleship on a normal ship. But when used on EW ships, ship bonuses makes this 50% instead. That would be fine with me. In fact, lets cut their strength in half and then give bonuses to EW ships. That would make the math like this... hypnos multispectral has 2.4 strength and with signal dispersion 5 it becomes 3.0. Chance to jam Raven (strength 22) becomes 3/22 = 13.6%. Why go to all that effort? Calculate the chance of a multispec jamming a raven which is using 1 midslot ECCM (racial). Deciding that ECM is overpowered because people don't want to use the counters provided is pointless, imho. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.08.14 10:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 10:46:27 Originally by: Radioactive Babe My point is that the Caldari race would be overpowered, you would be insane to go against a mostly caldari fleet in any other races ships (when the new tier3 BS's come out Caldari will be overpowered as it is - wont show immediately as most caldari pilots have poorish hybrid gun skills) Caldari are designed to be the high tech race and have the only EW battleship in the game. Its very easy for anyone to train for a scorpion no matter what race you fly. Takes 1 week maybe? No gunskills needed. So your idea of racial fleets are pretty foreign in this game. Its never caldari vs gallente fleets etc. As you pointed out, if i was a new Amarr/Gallente/Minnie player I would have to train up a different skill tree if i wanted to use ewar, people wont bother - they will just go with the i win race and no-one will create characters of any other race
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.14 11:01:00 - [55] Originally by: Avon Why go to all that effort? Calculate the chance of a multispec jamming a raven which is using 1 midslot ECCM (racial). Deciding that ECM is overpowered because people don't want to use the counters provided is pointless, imho. Using 1 Hypnos multispectral from ship with no ecm bonuses: 4.8 base + 25% from maxed signal dispersion = 6.0 strength. Raven has 22 strength. Chance to jam Raven without eccm = 6/22 = 27.2%. Chance to jam Raven with 1 racial medium slot eccm = 27.2/2 = 13.6%. Every 20 seconds you get a new chance. So in 1 minute, you get 3 tries. Im not exacly sure how to calculate the chance to get a jam in 3 tries. Is it like this? Chance to NOT jam = 100 - 27.2 = 72.8 = 0.728 0.728 * 0.728 * 0.728 = 0.385 = 38.5% chance to NOT jam with 3 tries = 61.5% to JAM in 3 tries? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.14 11:02:00 - [56] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 10:46:27 Originally by: Radioactive Babe My point is that the Caldari race would be overpowered, you would be insane to go against a mostly caldari fleet in any other races ships (when the new tier3 BS's come out Caldari will be overpowered as it is - wont show immediately as most caldari pilots have poorish hybrid gun skills) Caldari are designed to be the high tech race and have the only EW battleship in the game. Its very easy for anyone to train for a scorpion no matter what race you fly. Takes 1 week maybe? No gunskills needed. So your idea of racial fleets are pretty foreign in this game. Its never caldari vs gallente fleets etc. As you pointed out, if i was a new Amarr/Gallente/Minnie player I would have to train up a different skill tree if i wanted to use ewar, people wont bother - they will just go with the i win race and no-one will create characters of any other race Yeah EWAR should be open to everyone, caldari might be better with it just as gallenet is with drones but everyone should be able to use it, just as youll see a raven packing drones. damn need to make a new sig...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.14 11:12:00 - [57] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Jim McGregor Im not exacly sure how to calculate the chance to get a jam in 3 tries. Is it like this? 43.25% Jenny, I really hate your tendencies to just jump into threads with "conclusions" and not explaining how you reach them. How did you calculate that? I want to learn it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Larsson7 Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.14 11:13:00 - [58] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Radioactive Babe Originally by: Larsson7 If we look at covert cloaking or strip miners as an example of how ECM should possibly work, this is a possible alternative. Make ECM something silly like 1000 PG each with a 99% reduction for ECM specialised ships (Scorp, Rook, Falcon, Blackbird) no no no no no no no (and no) That kind of scenario would lead to all new players selecting caldari as they would then be without a shadow of doubt be the 1 win button (eve on easy mode already) (as for your first point, covert cloaks fit on two ships of all races and strip miners were a new training tree for all races) No they wouldnt. The caldari EW ships were designed to have low firepower while being good at jamming. Thats why they are good in groups and not solo pwnmobiles. You get the solo pwnmobiles when you can use multispectrals on dominix and raven. My point is that the Caldari race would be overpowered, you would be insane to go against a mostly caldari fleet in any other races ships (when the new tier3 BS's come out Caldari will be overpowered as it is - wont show immediately as most caldari pilots have poorish hybrid gun skills)
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.14 11:14:00 - [59] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 14/08/2006 11:16:57 Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Jim McGregor Im not exacly sure how to calculate the chance to get a jam in 3 tries. Is it like this? 43.25% Jenny, I really hate your tendencies to just jump into threads with "conclusions" and not explaining how you reach them. How did you calculate that? I want to learn it. /me lub short and simple, optimised^^. CBA to explain on forums. (3 choose 1) * success^1 * failure^2 ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.14 11:24:00 - [60] Originally by: Kitty O'Shay CCP's random number generator is broken. ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.

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