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Ilaister Task Force Proteus Protean Concept 111	Posted - 2014.10.14 02:50:00 - [1] - Quote It's been a topic of discussion across this forum, quality podcasts and OOG haunts of Eve players for a long time. We all know here is where you want to be for quality pew, high value ganks and the best environment to really exercise those predator instincts so why are so few groups moving in and developing? Appreciate this is also a question that's been asked before and perhaps those newer groups are keeping their heads down for fear of eviction/lack of interest in out of game media or whathaveyou, but the 'incursions are better ISK/hr' argument rings hollow and blaming Fozzie for the WH changes is demonstrably baseless - despite frigholes being a little pointless (unless the sleeper loot lore shenanigans result in T3 frigs, in which case GG CCP). Personally, I'd like to see more chestbeating from w-space groups. More propaganda, more presence in reddit, Eve-O forums and wherever the hell else telling people how spiffy things are here so the next time our crew fights someone it's a fresh group. The next time we open a hole the dead POSes we logged 3 months ago have been superseded by new ones. The next time we look to recruit they're not all coming from dead nullbear organisations or failing w-space blob alliances. Scanning chains is easier than ever before. Acess to every corner of New Eden is still available daily. GFs still occur more often than is ever reported. The ISK isn't as great as it used to be but it's still better than scrubbing around in low for DEDs or running missions. Maybe if we open our arms we can catalyse the change we all want to see in the space we live and love.
Jack Miton Isogen 5 3845	Posted - 2014.10.14 03:06:00 - [2] - Quote I blame myself. I'm just too scary :( Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/
Aquila Sagitta Blue-Fire 519	Posted - 2014.10.14 03:12:00 - [3] - Quote Ilaister wrote: We all know here is where you want to be for quality pew, high value ganks and the best environment to really exercise those predator instincts so why are so few groups moving in and developing? Fear. Fear of losing everything. Blue-Fire Best Fire
Hidden Fremen Lazerhawks 516	Posted - 2014.10.14 03:12:00 - [4] - Quote Ilaister wrote: Personally, I'd like to see more chestbeating from w-space groups. Most of what you said, I like. Just not the above quoted. Snipped signature for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Hatshepsut IV Cascading Failure Un.Bound 298	Posted - 2014.10.14 03:13:00 - [5] - Quote People have this opinion of wormholes being this place with an incredibly high bar of entry in a game which already has a huge bar of entry learning curvewise. That sort of filters out a lot of people who might otherwise come here. Tl;dr Scanning is hard? You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad \| Cascading Failure Public Channel \| Aspiring Failure
Hatshepsut IV Cascading Failure Un.Bound 298	Posted - 2014.10.14 03:24:00 - [6] - Quote Hidden Fremen wrote: Ilaister wrote: Personally, I'd like to see more chestbeating from w-space groups. Most of what you said, I like. Just not the above quoted. I think he means more grandstanding with goal of getting the good word of bobs holy land out there and less the other kind. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad \| Cascading Failure Public Channel \| Aspiring Failure
Andrew Jester Origin. Black Legion. 715	Posted - 2014.10.14 03:46:00 - [7] - Quote scanning/rolling for possibility of a fight when the majority of time people POS up is great if you either have enough people or have no life. It's way easier to wait for a ping, log in, get on titan, and go straight to fight. Even finding fights in general is easier in LS. When you don't want to make a massive time commitment, WH space blows. If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
Scrubnbubble Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions 25	Posted - 2014.10.14 05:07:00 - [8] - Quote Hatshepsut IV wrote: Tl;dr Scanning is hard?
calaretu Honestly We didnt know Unsettled. 220	Posted - 2014.10.14 05:27:00 - [9] - Quote Andrew Jester wrote: scanning/rolling for possibility of a fight when the majority of time people POS up is great if you either have enough people or have no life. It's way easier to wait for a ping, log in, get on titan, and go straight to fight. Even finding fights in general is easier in LS. When you don't want to make a massive time commitment, WH space blows. Some of us actually enjoy the thrill of the hunt. ~Bringer of happiness http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
Angsty Teenager Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 599	Posted - 2014.10.14 05:53:00 - [10] - Quote calaretu wrote: Andrew Jester wrote: scanning/rolling for possibility of a fight when the majority of time people POS up is great if you either have enough people or have no life. It's way easier to wait for a ping, log in, get on titan, and go straight to fight. Even finding fights in general is easier in LS. When you don't want to make a massive time commitment, WH space blows. Some of us actually enjoy the thrill of the hunt. Not everybody is a neckbeard loser in his basement who has all day to play video games.
calaretu Honestly We didnt know Unsettled. 221	Posted - 2014.10.14 07:41:00 - [11] - Quote Angsty Teenager wrote: calaretu wrote: Andrew Jester wrote: scanning/rolling for possibility of a fight when the majority of time people POS up is great if you either have enough people or have no life. It's way easier to wait for a ping, log in, get on titan, and go straight to fight. Even finding fights in general is easier in LS. When you don't want to make a massive time commitment, WH space blows. Some of us actually enjoy the thrill of the hunt. Not everybody is a neckbeard loser in his basement who has all day to play video games. Your assumptions did actually make me laugh. Thank you for that ~Bringer of happiness http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
Irya Boone Never Surrender. 393	Posted - 2014.10.14 07:44:00 - [12] - Quote because Wh suppose to be a place to live in , but just pass through , settle your campement , farm , make money , an go another place. But some players thought : hell no let's stay in this WHsystem. This is why so few live in WH ... and also because living in WH means risk of loosing EVRYTHING if your main POS get blapped CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 161	Posted - 2014.10.14 07:51:00 - [13] - Quote Well the most common reasons are the fact that there's not nearly as much PVP for the PVP pilots as elsewhere, and when there is, it's mostly numbers-based ganking with little skill or tactics involved, and there's too much risk for PVE pilots. And everything involves more effort than elsewhere. Scanning with a mapper is a massive time-sink.
Mister Tuggles Faceless Men 104	Posted - 2014.10.14 09:25:00 - [14] - Quote From a PvE perspective, unless you are in a c5/6 running cap escalations the risk vs reward is too low. You can basically make the same isk/hr in incursions in damn near 100% safety. Incursions also run nearly 24/7. With a bit of luck you can make significantly more Isk/hr in the safety of an upgraded sov NS. With WH's you need an active corp membership to be able to run sites effectively. From a PvP perspective you rarely get good fights in actual WH space. You fly around in cloaky gangs and hope you run across someone trying to clear sites. That or you sit on your hole and wait for another gang to come through. And to people saying you risk losing everything if you get sieged... This isn't really a problem now. I know a few of the large c5/6 corps still attack each other (ADHOC losing their entire system recently), but for the most part no one is going to waste their time attacking anything under a c5. You have no real risk in that department.
Papa Django CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue 38	Posted - 2014.10.14 10:22:00 - [15] - Quote Mister Tuggles wrote: And to people saying you risk losing everything if you get sieged... This isn't really a problem now. I know a few of the large c5/6 corps still attack each other (ADHOC losing their entire system recently), but for the most part no one is going to waste their time attacking anything under a c5. You have no real risk in that department. I have seen / been commited in 5 evictions attempt in wh <=C4 in 4 or 5 months. It happens ... From the POV of a small wh corp CEO trying to build a wh corp in low class wh, it is ... So ******* hard. Reasons are well known : 1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class 2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp 3- Nothing can be done solo 4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory) 5- Skills & knowledge need for the player (lots of things to know) Reasons 1, 2 and 3 could be fixed by CCP. Reasons 4 et 5 are just nice as it is. If you want more people in low class wh, up the blue loots reward and remove Hyperion (mass based jump distance especially). It is the only way.
Bronya Boga Isogen 5 490	Posted - 2014.10.14 11:54:00 - [16] - Quote Papa Django wrote: From the POV of a small wh corp CEO trying to build a wh corp in low class wh, it is ... So ***** hard. No its not. We worked hard to grow from a 6 man corp to a 20+ one. More work + more exposure = growth Papa Django wrote:** Reasons are well known : 1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class 2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp 3- Nothing can be done solo 4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory) 5- Skills & knowledge needed for the player (lots of things to know) 1. Agreed 2. No it didn't. Its an illusion. Stop regurgitating this misconception. 3. Also a lie. Check J110706. 4. T3 arent mendatory. Thats an old standard. 5. A week tops is what needed to know the basics Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
Andrew Jester Origin. Black Legion. 715	Posted - 2014.10.14 12:13:00 - [17] - Quote calaretu wrote: Angsty Teenager wrote: calaretu wrote: Andrew Jester wrote: scanning/rolling for possibility of a fight when the majority of time people POS up is great if you either have enough people or have no life. It's way easier to wait for a ping, log in, get on titan, and go straight to fight. Even finding fights in general is easier in LS. When you don't want to make a massive time commitment, WH space blows. Some of us actually enjoy the thrill of the hunt. Not everybody is a neckbeard loser in his basement who has all day to play video games. Your assumptions did actually make me laugh. Thank you for that With thrill of the hunt comes despair of the hunt when you don't find anything, and my experience was despair too often outweighed thrill. Not what I'm trying to do in a video game... If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
Papa Django CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue 38	Posted - 2014.10.14 12:16:00 - [18] - Quote Bronya Boga wrote: 2. No it didn't. Its an illusion. Stop regurgitating this misconception. It is a disaster. We have lost the ability to roll quickly connexions. It is too time consuming now. Controlling the environement is a core basic in wormhole exploitation. Bronya Boga wrote: 3. Also a lie. Check J110706. What can i check instead of the kb with your system name ? Bronya Boga wrote: 4. T3 arent mendatory. Thats an old standard. They are. We try to play with low skilled pilots in BC and it is a pain. We do it anyway because we want to bring more people in wspace, especially new players, but it is hard. Bronya Boga wrote: 5. A week tops is what needed to know the basics I don't know what you put under the basics but to train an autonomous wormhole player it takes months.
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Ixtab. 1909	Posted - 2014.10.14 12:25:00 - [19] - Quote Wormhole space isn't that active at the moment because: * there are a lack of conflict drivers to encourage PVP in wormhole space. * no substantial content has been added in years, so their is nothing new to entertain vets or promote wormholes to newer players. * in most cases, the rewards do not justify the risk. Equivalent isk can be earned in in k-space without as much risk or investment. * wormholes aren't "special" anymore and practically everything there was to discover has been discovered and documented. * CCP is focused on k-space not w-space. +1
Lloyd Roses Blue-Fire 713	Posted - 2014.10.14 12:38:00 - [20] - Quote Papa Django wrote: Bronya Boga wrote: 4. T3 arent mendatory. Thats an old standard. They are. We try to play with low skilled pilots in BC and it is a pain. We do it anyway because we want to bring more people in wspace, especially new players, but it is hard. Bronya Boga wrote: 5. A week tops is what needed to know the basics I don't know what you put under the basics but to train an autonomous wormhole player it takes months. Oh, please. It takes a bunch of days until people learn how to scan a wormhole and 20secs on eve-survival to check how-to ISK. Then you tell people to use dscan and you're ready. Maybe add a boot camp on wormholian behaviour and explain choke points. Yeah, elite wormholian successfully educated. Literally the only difference between w-space and k-space is having to scan the outgate and that local thingy. I didn't see any news in your ranks in the last encounter, all basis/ishtars/tengus/HICs. And given your enthusiasm to fight I'd rather blame that instead of a rumored T3-meta. Ed: Might be that I ran into one of your alliance-bros, so excuse that little detail please. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Levina Windstar Mekalon Industry 32	Posted - 2014.10.14 12:41:00 - [21] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Wormhole space isn't that active at the moment because: * CCP is focused on k-space not w-space. This...
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 771	Posted - 2014.10.14 12:56:00 - [22] - Quote Levina Windstar wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Wormhole space isn't that active at the moment because: * CCP is focused on k-space not w-space. This... Also there are people moving into W-space, but most are not capable of launching the fleet to deal with anybody c4 and up. They aren't large groups, and they generally don't grandstand. There are some farmers, some 2 to 3 solo groups, etc. Thinking straight off the top of my head though, the main "issue" people don't see others is probably because its easy to "blueball" in wormhole space. Just wait a day, hole collapses, and unless they plan on evicting you, you are fine. This is a issue with POS's itself though (aka to get people to fight, you have to threaten to evict them, then follow through with it, but killing pos's suck in c4 and below). To be blunt though, lack of conflict drivers. The only current one is having "a grudge". Wspace needs to be worth a little more or there needs to be a reason to fight over something. Yaay!!!!
Aladar Dangerface Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept 12	Posted - 2014.10.14 13:07:00 - [23] - Quote Papa Django wrote: [quote=Bronya Boga] 2. No it didn't. Its an illusion. Stop regurgitating this misconception. It is a disaster. We have lost the ability to roll quickly connexions. It is too time consuming now. Controlling the environement is a core basic in wormhole exploitation. [quote=Bronya Boga] It is not that time consuming compared to pre-Hyperion. Make a spot 200 off the other side of the hole, jump cap, web it to 200 and web it back. The risk is not substantially greater than before if u are on the ball and it adds another couple of minutes on to the time it used to take. I think it's more the mentality that since it's not 100% safe it shouldn't be done. And if that's ur thinking then u don't belong in wh space anyway. Post looks a little ****** but I'm on my phone so suck it.
Bronya Boga Isogen 5 490	Posted - 2014.10.14 13:07:00 - [24] - Quote Papa Django wrote: It is a disaster. We have lost the ability to roll quickly connexions. It is too time consuming now. Controlling the environement is a core basic in wormhole exploitation. 30 seconds is too long for you? Papa Django wrote: What can i check instead of the kb with your system name ? Not my system but a solo astero stayed there for a few days solo got a bunch of kills. Or maybe you never seen Baby Dadys work. Go to the youtube channel Deciple of Bob. You will see A lot of solo in whs. Papa Django wrote: They are. We try to play with low skilled pilots in BC and it is a pain. We do it anyway because we want to bring more people in wspace, especially new players, but it is hard. Its easy I dont understand why its hard for you. Papa Django wrote: I don't know what you put under the basics but to train an autonomous wormhole player it takes months. Explain polarity = 10 minutes Explain mass and time = 20 minutes Explain proper scouting = 30 minutes. BOOM. done. jesus christ well you look at that 60 minutes to teach the basics. Take the rest of the 167 hours and get a bit better about it. Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
Bronya Boga Isogen 5 490	Posted - 2014.10.14 13:10:00 - [25] - Quote Aladar Dangerface wrote: Papa Django wrote: [quote=Bronya Boga] 2. No it didn't. Its an illusion. Stop regurgitating this misconception. It is a disaster. We have lost the ability to roll quickly connexions. It is too time consuming now. Controlling the environement is a core basic in wormhole exploitation. [quote=Bronya Boga] It is not that time consuming compared to pre-Hyperion. Make a spot 200 off the other side of the hole, jump cap, web it to 200 and web it back. The risk is not substantially greater than before if u are on the ball and it adds another couple of minutes on to the time it used to take. I think it's more the mentality that since it's not 100% safe it shouldn't be done. And if that's ur thinking then u don't belong in wh space anyway. Post looks a little ****** but I'm on my phone so suck it. Its faster to just slowboat the dred. Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
Terrorfrodo Renegade Hobbits for Mordor 666	Posted - 2014.10.14 13:27:00 - [26] - Quote Nowhere else in EVE it's as easy to go solo as in wspace. You don't even need good player skills, just knowledge. I've been doing it for a long while. Only downside is that there are so few others in wspace, but that is actually less of an issue when being solo, because basically everything you do find is some sort of challenge. A lone Drake or Tengu ratting is poor content for a 15-man gang, but for a solo player it's an interesting find. Without a good reason nobody will siege a tower of a one-man corp, if only because they rightly assume that there is not much stuff in it. And even if someone would do it, it's easy to pack everything into one Orca and log it off for a while until the invaders get bored and leave. For pvp, it is a considerable advantage that no other people alarm potential targets by moving carelessly through the chain, **** up bookmarks or otherwise disrupt things with their incompetence. .
Obil Que Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance 159	Posted - 2014.10.14 14:00:00 - [27] - Quote There are so many variables at play, many of them with competing/cross purposes making w-space frustrating for those that are not already over inclined to live there. Much of this list is from the perspective of a group that has been in w-space a short time relative to many, is on the smaller side, more PvE than PvP focused and perhaps indicative of many corps coming from k-space to w-space other than pure PvP organizations. You have a highly non-casual playstyle in w-space (many activities take more time to set up or execute compared to k-space). This can limit character participation due to lack of "fun" when the setup takes up considerable portions of playtime. The risk level is much higher than any other space when you do go out to engage in content which is required in w-space as nothing is handed to you to do. PvE groups suffer from the EVE rewards system where group play is disincentivized through split rewards when solo/small group would suffice. This discourages increasing group participation. Group play, however, is necessitated by the increased risk level in order to operate efficiently or securely. POS mechanics foster distrust and awox/thievery making recruitment harder than it needs to be further limiting corporation growth potential. Corporation numbers are needed in order to provide adequate concentration of pilots online at a given time for either participation or protection. PvP groups in wormhole space are very efficient compared to corps either starting up, PvE focused, or with casual player membership allowing for a smaller number of dedicated PvP pilots to cripple a seemingly larger corporation that has a less organized/spread membership. Encountering PvP organization in multiple timezones can exacerbate this effect making it seem futile to operate in w-space. The PvP "meta" is T3 which has a significant price tag in both ISK and skillpoints for members who see T3 fleets as a dead stop to their activities. I'm sure there are more but that's just been our experience. We're still here, however, and loving w-space despite all this. Addressing POSes will go a long way to improving the recruitment capabilities of fledgling w-space corps. Addressing PvE rewards will improve the state of affairs for w-space residents. Both will draw more people including PvP players. I personally would love to see unique PvE content like k-space -> w-space escalations or anything like the null-sec anomalies in w-space that will draw in more day tripping pilots. So many w-space corps report that they often have been able to recruit with their guns that each person that enters w-space for rewards and becomes a target is future potential w-space corp member. Even seemingly simple changes to T3 production materials could mean a major improvement in w-space use if those changes ripple out to industrialists and pilots using those products
Axloth Okiah Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 510	Posted - 2014.10.14 14:19:00 - [28] - Quote This biggest problem always was and still is how ******* difficult is to have stuff and bring new people to the damned space, ie. POS security, corp roles, etc. Fix that and we are all set for population boom. All this stuff about rolling, conflict drivers, evictions and whatever is secondary to that. I'm still waiting for the personal ship hangar we've been promised to have right after Odyssey. W-Space Realtor
Papa Django CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue 38	Posted - 2014.10.14 14:37:00 - [29] - Quote Bronya Boga wrote: 30 seconds is too long for you? 30sec to roll a hole ? Come on plz ... You are just trolling. Bronya Boga wrote: Not my system but a solo astero stayed there for a few days solo got a bunch of kills. Or maybe you never seen Baby Dadys work. Go to the youtube channel Deciple of Bob. You will see A lot of solo in whs. Ok you have a solo astero player able to gank solo. Congratulations . Bronya Boga wrote: Its easy I dont understand why its hard for you. BC cant tank sleepers BS for example. The last waves in C3 data/relic are dangerous without a properly remote setup. BC are ok for combat ano in C1 to C3. But they need very good intel because they are too slow to w/o. DS usage is not a safe method to protect against gank. You need a scout on each connexion in the system. And new players have not usually others account to do that. So they need support from vet guys. It's not an easy thing. Bronya Boga wrote: Explain polarity = 10 minutes Explain mass and time = 20 minutes Explain proper scouting = 30 minutes. BOOM. done. jesus christ well you look at that 60 minutes to teach the basics. Take the rest of the 167 hours and get a bit better about it. First, most people don't handle a new concept the first time, they need one, two or three time the same information again. Second you forgot a lot of things : - what is a static, how to find the core data of each connexion type (mass & duration) - how to set up wh dedicated overviews - how to deal with POS - how to set up a fit for wh farm, fit for wh pvp, fit for wh logi, - how to fastly scan down a system - how to use third party tool to share the intel data - how to use bookmarks - how to scout safely a POS - how to find a guy in wspace only with dscan - how to takes advantage of sensor overlay in a pvp context - what kind of data we need when encountering other player in wh (corp info, kb, is in a wh group so need to know the main wh entities) - the differences between wspace and kspace pvp - how to pve relatively safely regarding to your ship type - how to roll a hole - etc ... i forgot surely things here There is plenty of things needed to be repeated many times because it is not possible for a person to learn all theses things instantly.
Terrorfrodo Renegade Hobbits for Mordor 667	Posted - 2014.10.14 14:53:00 - [30] - Quote Obil Que wrote: I personally would love to see unique PvE content like k-space -> w-space escalations Great idea. Occasionally, mission-runners in low-sec or even hisec would be offered special missions for which a wormhole in a nearby system is spawned that they have to scan down. In the wspace system they'll find a mission site that is of similar difficulty as their usual missions (=easy) but pays as much as a w-space site would, or more. Level 1 agents could offer missions into c1, level 2 to c2 etc. No such missions in c5/6. To not generate too many additional wormholes, these special holes would only appear if a pilot actually accepts the mission; I expect most of these missions would be turned down like the new burner missions. .
Bronya Boga Isogen 5 491	Posted - 2014.10.14 15:21:00 - [31] - Quote 1. No im not trolling should take you longer then 60 seconds. If it does figure it out. 2. How else do you define solo? I dont understand. 3.drakes can run solo c3 anoms. It is known. Besides the fact that if you are in wormholes and think you deserve to make money easily solo you will leave disappointed. Whs encourage team play. Embrace that ****. Alright for this one try to keep up Static is your constant connection every wh will have no matter what. It always goes to the same type of space. C1 and c3 have 1 kspace static, c2 have two statics one to wspace one to kspace, c4 has 2 wspace statics and c5/6 have 1 wspace static. Use siggy(w/e) to look what they are until you memorize them. Take pvp overview add wormholes and scan probes. Done. Explaining divisional access takes 5 minutes no more. Link fit in corp. Done. Practice. Open siggy. make homepage. Dont close. Learn dscan which isnt an exclusive skill nedded to wspace so lets not count it. Teach proper scouting (told ya before 30 minutes) Aggro timer dont matter. Polarity. Most likely will brawl. Scout ahead of time. Dont be stupid. Dscan. Dont afk. Math is easy. See calculator for details. How long did that take you to read that? See its fast not months. This was fun give me more :) Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
Jay Joringer United System's Commonwealth 412	Posted - 2014.10.14 15:39:00 - [32] - Quote Bronya Boga wrote: drakes can run solo c3 anoms. It is known. It is known. Always bet on stupid http://smug-bastard.blogspot.co.uk
Marox Calendale Human League 32	Posted - 2014.10.14 15:52:00 - [33] - Quote Papa Django wrote: [quote=Bronya Boga] ... BC cant tank sleepers BS for example. The last waves in C3 data/relic are dangerous without a properly remote setup. BC are ok for combat ano in C1 to C3. ... Try C4 Sites with Nagas. Take a Fleet with 2 Basilisk and 1 or 2 HAM Tengus for the frigates and at least a Minimum of 5 or 6 Nagas. We used to do C4 Sites in that configuration in about 4 - 7 Minutes each.
Aladar Dangerface Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept 12	Posted - 2014.10.14 15:56:00 - [34] - Quote Bronya Boga wrote: Aladar Dangerface wrote: Papa Django wrote: [quote=Bronya Boga] 2. No it didn't. Its an illusion. Stop regurgitating this misconception. It is a disaster. We have lost the ability to roll quickly connexions. It is too time consuming now. Controlling the environement is a core basic in wormhole exploitation. [quote=Bronya Boga] It is not that time consuming compared to pre-Hyperion. Make a spot 200 off the other side of the hole, jump cap, web it to 200 and web it back. The risk is not substantially greater than before if u are on the ball and it adds another couple of minutes on to the time it used to take. I think it's more the mentality that since it's not 100% safe it shouldn't be done. And if that's ur thinking then u don't belong in wh space anyway. Post looks a little ****** but I'm on my phone so suck it. Its faster to just slowboat the dred.
MooMooDachshundCow Incertae Sedis 92	Posted - 2014.10.14 16:13:00 - [35] - Quote Axloth Okiah wrote: This biggest problem always was and still is how ******* difficult is to have stuff and bring new people to the damned space, ie. POS security, corp roles, etc. Fix that and we are all set for population boom. All this stuff about rolling, conflict drivers, evictions and whatever is secondary to that. I'm still waiting for the personal ship hangar we've been promised to have right after Odyssey. ^^This. Remember also that the POS issues are part of what leads to the notorious WH mega-thefts. These thefts are entertaining to watch, and highly lucrative, but can still end a corp/alliance if it sufficiently undermines trust or morale. Certainly the meta-game of corp thievery is part of what makes Eve great, and I'm not opposed to it. I don't begrudge anyone for using the mechanic while it exists, but rather just that these issues can directly lead to less people living in wormholes. Managing roles and divisions isn't all bad, but in the end there's almost always someone else who can get to your stuff. People don't like knowing that their stuff isn't secure. I think this is a strong argument.
Papa Django CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue 38	Posted - 2014.10.14 16:20:00 - [36] - Quote Marox Calendale wrote: Papa Django wrote: [quote=Bronya Boga] ... BC cant tank sleepers BS for example. The last waves in C3 data/relic are dangerous without a properly remote setup. BC are ok for combat ano in C1 to C3. ... Try C4 Sites with Nagas. Take a Fleet with 2 Basilisk and 1 or 2 HAM Tengus for the frigates and at least a Minimum of 5 or 6 Nagas. We used to do C4 Sites in that configuration in about 4 - 7 Minutes each. Thx for the tips, let me give you one. With 20 bombers you can clean a wave in 10 sec (the bomb flight time). Usefull huh ? @Bronya Boga Ok you close a hole in 60 sec, you are my new hero.
MooMooDachshundCow Incertae Sedis 92	Posted - 2014.10.14 16:26:00 - [37] - Quote Papa Django wrote: Thx for the tips, let me give you one. With 20 bombers you can clean a wave in 10 sec (the bomb flight time). Usefull huh ? And you can pop all your blue loot with that last "extra" bomb. I'd be all like "It's not about the money, it's about sending a message".
CivilWars Rolled Out Black Legion. 208	Posted - 2014.10.14 16:46:00 - [38] - Quote Because more people find k-space more enjoyable than w-space, duh? I don't play EVE for the type of space that I live in, I play it for what I can do in said space. If people like to PVE it can be done easier/faster/cheaper in k-space than w-space in most scenarios. If people like to PVP it can be done easier/faster/cheaper in k-space than w-space in most scenarios. I have friends who do enjoy the "thrill of the hunt" that you can only get in w-space, but even they get tired of going days, and sometimes weeks, without finding anything to eat. We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. Hidden Fremen liked your forum post:...
Bronya Boga Isogen 5 492	Posted - 2014.10.14 16:58:00 - [39] - Quote Papa Django wrote: Marox Calendale wrote: Papa Django wrote: [quote=Bronya Boga] ... BC cant tank sleepers BS for example. The last waves in C3 data/relic are dangerous without a properly remote setup. BC are ok for combat ano in C1 to C3. ... Try C4 Sites with Nagas. Take a Fleet with 2 Basilisk and 1 or 2 HAM Tengus for the frigates and at least a Minimum of 5 or 6 Nagas. We used to do C4 Sites in that configuration in about 4 - 7 Minutes each. Thx for the tips, let me give you one. With 20 bombers you can clean a wave in 10 sec (the bomb flight time). Usefull huh ? @Bronya Boga Ok you close a hole in 60 sec, you are my new hero. \o/ Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
chris elliot Yoyodyne corporation Shadow Cartel 414	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:02:00 - [40] - Quote There arent more people in w-space because holy cockandballs batman it's boring.
Andrew Jester Origin. Black Legion. 715	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:26:00 - [41] - Quote MooMooDachshundCow wrote: Papa Django wrote: Thx for the tips, let me give you one. With 20 bombers you can clean a wave in 10 sec (the bomb flight time). Usefull huh ? And you can pop all your blue loot with that last "extra" bomb. I'd be all like "It's not about the money, it's about sending a message". I wish it was about the money :< If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
RudinV Hard Knocks Inc. 411	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:32:00 - [42] - Quote can some1 explain what ts wanted to say?
Andrew Jester Origin. Black Legion. 715	Posted - 2014.10.14 19:26:00 - [43] - Quote RudinV wrote: can some1 explain what ts wanted to say? nothing important. just dumb bear rambling If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
Kirasten No Vacancies 110	Posted - 2014.10.15 01:46:00 - [44] - Quote Papa Django wrote: Mister Tuggles wrote: And to people saying you risk losing everything if you get sieged... This isn't really a problem now. I know a few of the large c5/6 corps still attack each other (ADHOC losing their entire system recently), but for the most part no one is going to waste their time attacking anything under a c5. You have no real risk in that department. I have seen / been commited in 5 evictions attempt in wh <=C4 in 4 or 5 months. It happens ... From the POV of a small wh corp CEO trying to build a wh corp in low class wh, it is ... So ******* hard. Reasons are well known : 1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class 2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp 3- Nothing can be done solo 4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory) 5- Skills & knowledge needed for the player (lots of things to know) ( EDIT : And i forgot the discipline needed, lots of player can't bear that) Reasons 1, 2 and 3 could be fixed by CCP. Reasons 4 et 5 are just nice as it is. If you want more people in low class wh, up the blue loots reward and remove Hyperion (mass based jump distance especially). It is the only way. A lot of this is just craziness. I was drug into a c2 before I had even finished the training missions and into a c5 before I could t2 fit the rattlesnakes we use to use for sites. I didn't even know how to play eve. I learned to play eve in a wormhole. So telling people its hard is bollocks. Like most people, I don't like the mass mechanic added in Hyperion, but acting like its so much extra work is just lies. In those low class systems you are talking about, what is the size of the hole? A 1 bil hole takes 2 orcas to slowboat back .. what is that, 15 seconds?
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 838	Posted - 2014.10.15 02:06:00 - [45] - Quote Compared to much of eve and gaming in general w-space needs quite a bit of commitment in time and effort to really do it proper which not everyone has room for - I doubt I would start into w-space these days if I hadn't already now having family commitments and 3x the hours at work that I didn't have when I first moved into w-space.
Angsty Teenager Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 601	Posted - 2014.10.15 02:38:00 - [46] - Quote Answer is easy and simple. There are three kinds of people in eve. They are smart people and dumb people. Currently in w-space, there is no reason for dumb people to live there. PVE sites in C4-C1 are too difficult and too unrewarding for the amount of effort required to make it risk free (dumb people don't do things that have what they perceive as risk, they usually die in risky scenarios because they thought it was risk free--not because they did it anyway despite knowing it was risky). They can't live in C5 or C6 space because that's even more riskier and also requires that they put effort into actually doing the PVE, and some intelligence as well--they don't have that. On the PVP side, the dumb pvp'ers cannot find targets because there are no dumb people doing dumb things. This is a combination off dumb players not doing PVE in WH's, and also the fact that WH's are so sparsely populated that dumb PVP'ers cannot find each other. So neither party lives in WH space. I'm sure some come and try to, but quickly get bored or killed by the few people still active in wormholes. Similarly, there is no reason for smart people to live in WH's. The PVE is bad and requires significant effort to actually make it better than standard PVE in kspace or market trading--and the PVP is way too sparse and is significantly harder to find than in k-space. Some people are masochistic and like this, but frankly this is a fact--WH pvp is harder to get than k-space pvp by many orders of magnitude and k-space pvp is just as fun, there is no significant difference--ESPECIALLY after Pheobe, when lowsec/nullsec becomes significantly safer for capital brawls to happen in. The fun/effort ratio of playing the game in wormholes is significantly worse than playing it in k-space. tl;dr i lost my train of though halfway through and I really just think that w-space is **** because it's way too much effort to actively force fights in general, and the flip side of just waiting for fights to come to you doesn't work due to the lack of population.
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 1704	Posted - 2014.10.15 05:24:00 - [47] - Quote Percieved risks are nowadays 500% more than the actual risk. I have been trying to recruit miners. Mostly for de-mining activities (picture a flock of Procurers pushed ahead of the troops like sheep in a minefield). However, it's hard to convince people that they won't be baiting when they want to be mining. I mean, hello, you roll yourself in and everyone chows down on the pimp nerd food in gravs, and just watch for a new sig. It's that simple. You'll make billions. And then, when there is something to bait, you'll get cheap-ass PVP handed to you on a plate. But no, it's all "mew mew mew wormhole mining is too dangerous"and "mew mew mew you'll get evicted fo sho" and so on. I can honestly say if you want to have a crack at my POS, you're welcome to waste 4 days of your life doing it. I'll even let you loot all the stuff I can't just MJD out of the bubbles. PVPers need a supply of people to shoot, but they also need to be proportional. 15 Proteus and 6 guardians blobbing the hell out of a couple of noobs is lame. Bring Rifters instead, you're supposedly all elite PVPers. The victims will still die horribly, but they won't get discouraged and just move back to k-space. Blobby elitists are their own worse enemy. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Ixtab. 1911	Posted - 2014.10.15 07:28:00 - [48] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: I have been trying to recruit miners. Mostly for de-mining activities (picture a flock of Procurers pushed ahead of the troops like sheep in a minefield). However, it's hard to convince people that they won't be baiting when they want to be mining. I mean, hello, you roll yourself in and everyone chows down on the pimp nerd food in gravs, and just watch for a new sig. It's that simple. You'll make billions. And then, when there is something to bait, you'll get cheap-ass PVP handed to you on a plate. But no, it's all "mew mew mew wormhole mining is too dangerous". They are right. Why take the risk of mining in wormholes when you can do it in k-space which has the benefit of local? +1
Abraham Nalelmir Probe Patrol Ixtab. 38	Posted - 2014.10.15 07:41:00 - [49] - Quote My take on this is: WH's were suffering long before Hyperion, I remember my early days in a C4, then I went down to a C3 for about 6 months, I had more activities than what I found when I moved to a C5... it was good money making in the C5 back then, but we hardly found any targets willing to take a risk fighting us... and when a target finds us, it either be our logoff time, or there are not enough people to engage. I was training for a dread to use it in our cap escalations in C5, but Hyperion came and screwed it all, because the group I am with now, are moving away from C5s... So I would put the problem from my POV: 1. WH's already had problems before Hyperion 2. People who had plans for their life in WH's got part of their plans destroyed because of the surprise of Hyperion 3. Loss of interest in WH's after they got to this situation. Now I don't say Hyperion is the cause of all of this, yes I was annoyed that I spent 3.5 bill on a dread I will never use in the coming weeks perhaps, but I adapted... before I adapt I was in the shock stage of what I saw in the expansion... People who did not manage to pass that shock stage have gone, but I still think there might be hope again from newcomers to the game, totally new people, who did not see how it was before Hyperion, and will never complain about anything because they did not know how it was before... those guys may get in WH's again and build them up on the new shape they are now. Many complains I saw about the expected (incoming?) nerf for colaky ships next to each others, and that might add its affects on part of the remaining people in WHs as well... but a newcomer will not feel the same pain as we do now... a newcomer will find a way to manage the spawn distance better than us because he never experienced it as it was before, so he will be already adapted to this change (which is not a change for him). Maybe existing WH entities can take a little risk and try to recruit those new people and give them the required resources to live in wspace, then let them go on their own as a separate entity, that for sure will increase wspace residents numbers... (I actually tried to do that before but did only make it on papers, because of reasons Aquila Sagitta might know :D) Anyways, that was my take on it, and as I said, I'm still fresh in WH's so some (or most) of this might sound wrong or not accurate. In Go.. ECM I trust
Abraham Nalelmir Probe Patrol Ixtab. 38	Posted - 2014.10.15 07:43:00 - [50] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Trinkets friend wrote: I have been trying to recruit miners. Mostly for de-mining activities (picture a flock of Procurers pushed ahead of the troops like sheep in a minefield). However, it's hard to convince people that they won't be baiting when they want to be mining. I mean, hello, you roll yourself in and everyone chows down on the pimp nerd food in gravs, and just watch for a new sig. It's that simple. You'll make billions. And then, when there is something to bait, you'll get cheap-ass PVP handed to you on a plate. But no, it's all "mew mew mew wormhole mining is too dangerous". They are right. Why take the risk of mining in wormholes when you can do it in k-space which has the benefit of local? Fit a procurer with T2 shield tank, get some drones in it, and then you can combine mining with PVP/being a bait for your invisible pvp fleet... that for sure is not in kspace too much. In Go.. ECM I trust
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 368	Posted - 2014.10.15 07:45:00 - [51] - Quote I personally hope that the established corporations who have dominated wh space continue to hemorrhage members and lose control over their surrounding space a little more each time. Your establishments are just as terrible as the CFC/N3/PL. You complain more too. Nothing will ever change about the culture of WH until you are gone. It's really that simple. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 368	Posted - 2014.10.15 07:47:00 - [52] - Quote Abraham Nalelmir wrote: Fit a procurer with T2 shield tank, get some drones in it, and then you can combine mining with PVP/being a bait for your invisible pvp fleet... that for sure is not in kspace too much. Baiting like that is more common than you think. You're not some elite space warrior. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 165	Posted - 2014.10.15 08:01:00 - [53] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: I personally hope that the established corporations who have dominated wh space continue to hemorrhage members and lose control over their surrounding space a little more each time. Your establishments are just as terrible as the CFC/N3/PL. You complain more too. Nothing will ever change about the culture of WH until you are gone. It's really that simple. How do these "established corporations" actually dominate wh space?
Abraham Nalelmir Probe Patrol Ixtab. 38	Posted - 2014.10.15 08:23:00 - [54] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: Abraham Nalelmir wrote: Fit a procurer with T2 shield tank, get some drones in it, and then you can combine mining with PVP/being a bait for your invisible pvp fleet... that for sure is not in kspace too much. Baiting like that is more common than you think. You're not some elite space warrior. I'm not that elite warrior, but just throwing out the thoughts in my yhead In Go.. ECM I trust
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 368	Posted - 2014.10.15 08:31:00 - [55] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Caleb Seremshur wrote: I personally hope that the established corporations who have dominated wh space continue to hemorrhage members and lose control over their surrounding space a little more each time. Your establishments are just as terrible as the CFC/N3/PL. You complain more too. Nothing will ever change about the culture of WH until you are gone. It's really that simple. How do these "established corporations" actually dominate wh space? Responding to you properly would take way too much time. read this again Quote: I can honestly say if you want to have a crack at my POS, you're welcome to waste 4 days of your life doing it. I'll even let you loot all the stuff I can't just MJD out of the bubbles. and then take that in mind when you browse the wormhole subforum at large. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
Lloyd Roses Blue-Fire 717	Posted - 2014.10.15 08:41:00 - [56] - Quote Angsty Teenager wrote: Answer is easy and simple. There are three kinds of people in eve. They are smart people and dumb people. Currently in w-space, there is no reason for dumb people to live there. PVE sites in C4-C1 are too difficult and too unrewarding for the amount of effort required to make it risk free (dumb people don't do things that have what they perceive as risk, they usually die in risky scenarios because they thought it was risk free--not because they did it anyway despite knowing it was risky). They can't live in C5 or C6 space because that's even more riskier and also requires that they put effort into actually doing the PVE, and some intelligence as well--they don't have that. On the PVP side, the dumb pvp'ers cannot find targets because there are no dumb people doing dumb things. This is a combination off dumb players not doing PVE in WH's, and also the fact that WH's are so sparsely populated that dumb PVP'ers cannot find each other. So neither party lives in WH space. I'm sure some come and try to, but quickly get bored or killed by the few people still active in wormholes. Similarly, there is no reason for smart people to live in WH's. The PVE is bad and requires significant effort to actually make it better than standard PVE in kspace or market trading--and the PVP is way too sparse and is significantly harder to find than in k-space. Some people are masochistic and like this, but frankly this is a fact--WH pvp is harder to get than k-space pvp by many orders of magnitude and k-space pvp is just as fun, there is no significant difference--ESPECIALLY after Pheobe, when lowsec/nullsec becomes significantly safer for capital brawls to happen in. The fun/effort ratio of playing the game in wormholes is significantly worse than playing it in k-space. tl;dr i lost my train of though halfway through and I really just think that w-space is ** because it's way too much effort to actively force fights in general, and the flip side of just waiting for fights to come to you doesn't work due to the lack of population. You missed the third kind of person though. The guy who is to lazy to get SOV but still wants to throw up a TCU in home, and likes the nebulae and the outgoing connections. Small difference to living in low, but a vital one. The isolation a wormhole system has to offer is charming on its own :) King Fu Hostile wrote: Caleb Seremshur wrote:** I personally hope that the established corporations who have dominated wh space continue to hemorrhage members and lose control over their surrounding space a little more each time. Your establishments are just as terrible as the CFC/N3/PL. You complain more too. Nothing will ever change about the culture of WH until you are gone. It's really that simple. How do these "established corporations" actually dominate wh space? He's probably talking of SSC, NoHo, HK and disavowed. All of these are pretty it and if they want you dead, they just pour their numbers onto you. Just imagine an invasion with those entities having as many guardians as you got pilots in fleet... Doesn't help that they got pretty kickass FCs to top it off. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Ixtab. 1911	Posted - 2014.10.15 10:40:00 - [57] - Quote Abraham Nalelmir wrote: Fit a procurer with T2 shield tank, get some drones in it, and then you can combine mining with PVP/being a bait for your invisible pvp fleet... that for sure is not in kspace too much. Irrelevant. It's still more risk for equal or less reward compared to k-space. +1
ChrisLCTR Lazerhawks 150	Posted - 2014.10.15 10:47:00 - [58] - Quote To kind of bring it back to the OP's track, I think part of the issue is the pure toxicity of the community at large, and all of the bitter poo-flinging that happens, due to people not having desirable experiences during their stay in WH space. As it turns out, a lot of the people who talk on these forums are actually quite fed up with WH's due to not being very successful in them, and of course I point to the guys who are chilling in massive Null-Sec alliances, who get their kicks playing ping-warrior online and probably Archeage, since that seems to be the off-game flavor of the month. To each their own I suppose. Whether the people who 'retired' from WH space did so because of stagnation within corp, internal drama and politics, lack of active directors, shady members etc, it all leads to generally the same outcome. They leave, and then fire shots from the other side. Hyperion was just a big excuse to leave for everyone that wanted to leave for a long time as it is. Rolling WH's isn't that hard, just use your brains and smash more ships through a wormhole. Now imagine that you are a newish player, or maybe an older one who wants to try WH space for the first time. One of the things you might do is come to the WH forums to try and gain some insight on what the community is like, and what the game change might be. What this person is going to find, is nothing but trolling, bitterness, and overall misleading commentary that has a strong bias against the WH gameplay. They end up mislead, or afraid to come in here because other people say in the worst ways possible that it cannot be fun, and they will inevitably be evicted, or never find anything to do, or in trend with a LOT of the posts here, it's just too hard. This forum and the people in it generally discourage anyone from approaching WH space at all. You don't nurture, you destroy it yourselves inadvertently with all of the cynicism and false information. Don't get me wrong, some of what is talked about is actual facts, but so little that it's almost negligible. WH space is whatever you want to make of it. The problem is we don't have enough inspired fresh blood that will come in and prove a lot of you incorrect, or take all of the information you say with a grain of salt. You might not find all of your content within WH space, but it's sure as hell a plethora of content if you're actually willing to not be terrible and work for it. This whole purebred WH content crap is ridiculous. Content is content, and WH's are still fine, nobody wants to adapt to anything anymore, and people became too soft. TL'DR WH's are the same as always, people are more lazy in EVE as a whole, +e Keep the laughter in Slaughter
Ilaister Task Force Proteus Protean Concept 111	Posted - 2014.10.15 10:52:00 - [59] - Quote Pros of W-Space: ISK - Yes running anoms isn't as profitable as it used to be, but I can still make more money throwing two ventures into an instrumental or running a relic or ghost than any incursion. I've never run them (too many horror stories about incursion comms) but I really don't buy this argument at all. Cluster-wide access - We go everywhere, access pretty much any content in any other area of space. I'm rarely more than 10j from a hub. I can run a 10/10 DED in a back end null one night and run SOE missions the next day if I so choose. I'm not shooting the same organisation that lives next door to me day after day in the same comps. Pew - I can't destroy 10b worth of someone's assets in a single engagement in lowsex in a 10-v-10 fight (or lose them, it's exhilarating.) We have no local so getting a fight and winning it does not depend solely on your ability to dupe the enemy. You can actually hunt. Many fights depend on every single pilot in your gang having a good fit, flying well, using their ship to its maximum potential. Rarely is a pilot in a wh-gang is just a number. I can close a connection and make life super difficult for my opponents to reinforce. They can do the same, but if my probing was extensive enough I can get my reinforcements round another route, or probe faster than they do to get them in that way. Which is huge fun IMO. I think we've explored the cons pretty comprehensively already. Eve players are good at cons. Despite all of them though, three lowsec pirates came into w-space to setup our corp two years ago - we flew mainly BCs in PvP and made far more isk than we were used to running C3s. Brave newbies opened dropbears around the same time. I feel like we don't see these new groups coming in anymore. Is that a perception issue? Cos if it is it's our job to change that. Not CCPs. Jester is right, WH's take a lot of time. A lot of that is ameliorated by a couple of players with more gametime on their hands than the rest however. Personally I take pride in the fact we work harder for our content than other areas. Where is the sense of achievement in sitting on a titan and bridging to a blob fight, win or lose? Bronya is right. WHs aren't as hard as people make them out to be. Unless you're 'stupid'. But as Trinket points out we probably have a smaller proportion of those in w-space than in other areas. Looking at the thread, can we crystallise our requirements of CCP into two areas? Sort our POSes so we can recruit and add some new content so there is another draw/conflict driver for us and newer groups to give up their lowsec pipe or rented null system. I honestly feel like the rest is fixable by us.
Ilaister Task Force Proteus Protean Concept 111	Posted - 2014.10.15 10:54:00 - [60] - Quote ChrisLCTR wrote: SO MUCH TRUTH I think this may have been my point all along. I just don't want to get my corpies assets burned for expressing this opinion too strongly.
Random Yotosala The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Enemy Spotted. 0	Posted - 2014.10.15 11:57:00 - [61] - Quote Kirasten wrote: Papa Django wrote: Mister Tuggles wrote: And to people saying you risk losing everything if you get sieged... This isn't really a problem now. I know a few of the large c5/6 corps still attack each other (ADHOC losing their entire system recently), but for the most part no one is going to waste their time attacking anything under a c5. You have no real risk in that department. I have seen / been commited in 5 evictions attempt in wh <=C4 in 4 or 5 months. It happens ... From the POV of a small wh corp CEO trying to build a wh corp in low class wh, it is ... So ******* hard. Reasons are well known : 1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class 2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp 3- Nothing can be done solo 4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory) 5- Skills & knowledge needed for the player (lots of things to know) ( EDIT : And i forgot the discipline needed, lots of player can't bear that) Reasons 1, 2 and 3 could be fixed by CCP. Reasons 4 et 5 are just nice as it is. If you want more people in low class wh, up the blue loots reward and remove Hyperion (mass based jump distance especially). It is the only way. A lot of this is just craziness. I was drug into a c2 before I had even finished the training missions and into a c5 before I could t2 fit the rattlesnakes we use to use for sites. I didn't even know how to play eve. I learned to play eve in a wormhole. So telling people its hard is bollocks. Like most people, I don't like the mass mechanic added in Hyperion, but acting like its so much extra work is just lies. In those low class systems you are talking about, what is the size of the hole? A 1 bil hole takes 2 orcas to slowboat back .. what is that, 15 seconds? So, you've been living in a big corp that does the closing for you. I hope you understand that it's not the case for the small corps. PS: Orcas cost money and time.
Ned Black Driders 95	Posted - 2014.10.15 12:32:00 - [62] - Quote The reason I moved out of WH space is because I got a kid, and with that I have two 2 seconds AFK notice and then be AFK for two minutes or two hours... if that, and that is a bad thing in WH space. I can not be part of PvE nor PvP fleets, and while I could sit and spin my ship in POS or do some scanning, its not that much fun... I moved to null, but I could not be part of the roaming gangs nor the gate camps in anything but a cloaky for the same reasons. And with null being what it is that was not very popular. I left the corp in null and started ninja scanning instead. I guess I could sustain my accounts doing that, but its still not fun to have to go AFK every now and then so I recently decided to take (yet) another break from eve. Oh, well, if EvE is still alive when (if?!?) I get more time I am most likely coming back like always.
Andrew Jester Origin. Black Legion. 718	Posted - 2014.10.15 13:13:00 - [63] - Quote Ilaister wrote: Pew - I can't destroy 10b worth of someone's assets in a single engagement in lowsex in a 10-v-10 fight (or lose them, it's exhilarating.) You're dumb, people fly bling ** in low sec just like you do in WHs. The rest of the pros were p good though. Ilaister wrote: Jester is right Never 4get Ilaister wrote: ChrisLCTR wrote:** SO MUCH TRUTH I think this may have been my point all along. I just don't want to get my corpies assets burned for expressing this opinion too strongly. This sentiment is exactly part of what's wrong. If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
RudinV Hard Knocks Inc. 411	Posted - 2014.10.15 13:36:00 - [64] - Quote Ilaister wrote: Jester is right Andrew Jester wrote: You're dumb MUCH BETTER
Blodhgarm Dethahal Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept 182	Posted - 2014.10.15 13:46:00 - [65] - Quote I think all you old farts need to get out of wormholes because you are too old and stubborn to adapt and all your bitching is rubbing off on other people -Bl+¦d http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space.
Nash MacAllister Anomalous Existence Low-Class 185	Posted - 2014.10.15 13:49:00 - [66] - Quote Ilaister wrote: I honestly feel like the rest is fixable by us. There have been many well-thought points made on the "why" part, some I agree with, some I don't. But this had become a self-fulfilling prophecy in that as people have cried the sky is falling, it causes more and more to leave, thereby magnifying the issues. Most of w-space is the same as it was 3-4 years ago, mainly just minor tweaks to mechanics, although almost across the board CCP has done a terrible job communicating on them. IMHO, the end result, accelerated burnout in w-space. While we used to have enough new folks interested in dipping their feet in the water to replace the bittervets while they were on an Eve sabbatical, it seems the tide has shifted. Couple this with the noticeable decline in wh activity (would love to see real numbers on this from CCP), it makes drawing folks in and them committing to the efforts to create content even more difficult. Brute force scanning of chains is yielding fewer and fewer results (i.e. PVP), while the percentage of gank engagements versus actual fleet fights has gone up. I speak mostly of C1-C4 but of course we see all class wh in our chains and hs diving. In the end, it is going to be up to us as w-space residents to adapt and overcome. CCP is clearly not going to help up in any meaningful way, anytime soon. There does seem to be more cooperation between established wh entities when something juicy is found, i.e. nullbears running wh escalations and such, so that is good to see. I think eventually the voids where people have left will be replaced by newcomers or reformed groups, but as it stands, only the solid wh entities are going to be able to weather the storm here. You can only scan so many chains before people get tired of it. regardless of the ISK, which is still substantial. I do believe wspace is mostly still driven by PVP, not ISK, and a lack of decent PVP is what is fueling our current issues. So the more we can get folks out scanning and bumping into each other, the better the odds we can connect for some good fights and get w-space as a whole back on track. *Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...*
Obil Que Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance 162	Posted - 2014.10.15 14:12:00 - [67] - Quote Nash MacAllister wrote: Brute force scanning of chains is yielding fewer and fewer results (i.e. PVP), while the percentage of gank engagements versus actual fleet fights has gone up. I speak mostly of C1-C4 but of course we see all class wh in our chains and hs diving. In the end, it is going to be up to us as w-space residents to adapt and overcome. CCP is clearly not going to help up in any meaningful way, anytime soon. There does seem to be more cooperation between established wh entities when something juicy is found, i.e. nullbears running wh escalations and such, so that is good to see. I think eventually the voids where people have left will be replaced by newcomers or reformed groups, but as it stands, only the solid wh entities are going to be able to weather the storm here. You can only scan so many chains before people get tired of it. regardless of the ISK, which is still substantial. I do believe wspace is mostly still driven by PVP, not ISK, and a lack of decent PVP is what is fueling our current issues. So the more we can get folks out scanning and bumping into each other, the better the odds we can connect for some good fights and get w-space as a whole back on track. Until w-space becomes more profitable for group operation vs. solo, the overwhelming thing you're going to find in C1-C4 is solo players. I assume these are the gank engagements you speak of. It certainly has been what I've been encountering this past week (though I won't complain about being able to blow up people). EVE may not be about ISK for you, as perhaps a more established EVE player, but my gut tells me, from conversations with the players I've brought into our corp, that for many it is ALL about the ISK. More often than not, the players I'm encountering are strongly looking to PLEX with ISK. While the subscription cost for EVE is small in the grand scheme of things, probably on top of other games, other expenses, etc. etc. it is a cost that many do not want to endure when getting into the game. Appropriate ISK rewards for group play draws groups. Groups support PvP fleets. I don't see how you can have one without the other. Fleet level PvP isn't likely to happen in w-space without the ISK generation to support it. I'm continually surprised how many PvP focused organizations seem to gloss over that connection.
Ned Black Driders 95	Posted - 2014.10.15 14:14:00 - [68] - Quote Nash MacAllister wrote: Ilaister wrote: I honestly feel like the rest is fixable by us. I think eventually the voids where people have left will be replaced by newcomers or reformed groups, but as it stands, only the solid wh entities are going to be able to weather the storm here. You can only scan so many chains before people get tired of it. regardless of the ISK, which is still substantial. I do believe wspace is mostly still driven by PVP, not ISK, and a lack of decent PVP is what is fueling our current issues. So the more we can get folks out scanning and bumping into each other, the better the odds we can connect for some good fights and get w-space as a whole back on track. You may be right, yet the amount of active people in EvE HAVE dropped quite significantly. Just a few years ago at this time of day there would be approximatly 35-40k players logged in, and even if the US side of things saw a slight dip it was still quite a bit of people online at any time. Today an hour after DT there were 12k people when I went to log in... and right now when I checked it was 21-22k... and this is only slightly before euro prime time. So while you may be right that other will come in and replace the bittervets it is also possible that people simply log off and say fu*k it, not worth the time and effort.
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Ixtab. 1911	Posted - 2014.10.15 14:50:00 - [69] - Quote That's a good point... High PLEX prices are contributing to less people in wormhole space. I've unstubbed my alt due to the price, as have many others. I also know people that have left C5 space and moved to highsec because it's easier to earn isk from incursions. +1
RudinV Hard Knocks Inc. 411	Posted - 2014.10.15 14:51:00 - [70] - Quote this^ numbers are decreasing quite significantly. i remember 50k+ online, now most of the time i see 25-30. more ccp 32fox fixing wspace and we will have 15k online to next year
James Rapture Dead Star Syndicate 4	Posted - 2014.10.15 14:55:00 - [71] - Quote 2 cents coming from a smaller Corporation that frequently day trips into Wspace and has held a system or two before: I think the lack of newbros in Wspace comes from the lack of fleets that show pilots just how much fun each type of activity in a wormhole can be. From PvE to PvP. Combat to Industry. The middlemen to show the ropes to pilots coming from Highsec are often nowhere to be found. It seems like bigger jspace groups will mostly take those already experienced and fully interested where as kspace Corps don't always provide wormhole operations on their menu. It is tough to fully experience all that there is when you are either going at it solo, or are in a Corporation that thinks they can no longer be in Wspace because they "are not big enough". You do not need a T3 fleet with six thousand Guardians to run in Wspace. Just don't be a ****** on your POS setup, be smart when bearing, and do not be scared to fight. Prove your worth to BOB and he will reward. This is to all future Wspace Fleet Commanders: Grab some ships and just do it. Grab anyone interested and just do it. The forum and websites on wormholes and it's mechanics will only take you so far. Figure out doctrines that work for you and keep your team interested. Be smart and fly cheap but to maximum efficiency. TL;DR : Smaller groups that want to do it, try it and keep at it. We did. Large groups, get some experienced and willing FC's to run smaller operations in lower class holes. Everyone alike quit bitching about ISK vs REWARD and just have fun. If you want great ISK/HR then stick to empire. ^My Opinion.
Bronya Boga Isogen 5 496	Posted - 2014.10.15 15:05:00 - [72] - Quote Random Yotosala wrote: Kirasten wrote: Papa Django wrote: Mister Tuggles wrote: And to people saying you risk losing everything if you get sieged... This isn't really a problem now. I know a few of the large c5/6 corps still attack each other (ADHOC losing their entire system recently), but for the most part no one is going to waste their time attacking anything under a c5. You have no real risk in that department. I have seen / been commited in 5 evictions attempt in wh <=C4 in 4 or 5 months. It happens ... From the POV of a small wh corp CEO trying to build a wh corp in low class wh, it is ... So ******* hard. Reasons are well known : 1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class 2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp 3- Nothing can be done solo 4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory) 5- Skills & knowledge needed for the player (lots of things to know) ( EDIT : And i forgot the discipline needed, lots of player can't bear that) Reasons 1, 2 and 3 could be fixed by CCP. Reasons 4 et 5 are just nice as it is. If you want more people in low class wh, up the blue loots reward and remove Hyperion (mass based jump distance especially). It is the only way. A lot of this is just craziness. I was drug into a c2 before I had even finished the training missions and into a c5 before I could t2 fit the rattlesnakes we use to use for sites. I didn't even know how to play eve. I learned to play eve in a wormhole. So telling people its hard is bollocks. Like most people, I don't like the mass mechanic added in Hyperion, but acting like its so much extra work is just lies. In those low class systems you are talking about, what is the size of the hole? A 1 bil hole takes 2 orcas to slowboat back .. what is that, 15 seconds? So, you've been living in a big corp that does the closing for you. I hope you understand that it's not the case for the small corps. PS: Orcas cost money and time. <- Small corp. Still roll with orcas. It takes 15 seconds. Quit exaggerating Also if you cant afford an orca you are doing wormholes wrong Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
Nash MacAllister Anomalous Existence Low-Class 185	Posted - 2014.10.15 15:27:00 - [73] - Quote RudinV wrote: this^ numbers are decreasing quite significantly. i remember 50k+ online, now most of the time i see 25-30. more ccp 32fox fixing wspace and we will have 15k online to next year I concur and am a tad concerned what this means as a long-term trend as it is approaching that state in my eyes. If the overall Eve population goes down, regardless if it is mains and/or alts, it doesn't bode well for w-space population levels and pilot replenishment. I myself have started planning to consolidate accounts simply due the cost of plex. If anyone doubts the trend, or just wants more detail - http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility Definitely not looking favorable, but it could just be a result of account consolidation and inactives finally leaving the game. Hard to say without better data... *Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...*
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 165	Posted - 2014.10.15 15:34:00 - [74] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: He's probably talking of SSC, NoHo, HK and disavowed. All of these are pretty it and if they want you dead, they just pour their numbers onto you. Just imagine an invasion with those entities having as many guardians as you got pilots in fleet... Doesn't help that they got pretty kickass FCs to top it off. KK, I see, but then there's also the reality where 90% wormhole inhabitants never see any of those corps, and even fewer are ever threatened by them.
Papa Django CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue 40	Posted - 2014.10.15 15:59:00 - [75] - Quote Bronya Boga wrote: <- Small corp. Still roll with orcas. It takes 15 seconds. Quit exaggerating Also if you cant afford an orca you are doing wormholes wrong A corp able to roll a 2bil mass connexion in 15 sec is not a small corp. It needs 4 orca and 4 orca pilot to do that, (And it takes closer to a few mins then 15 secs) and i don't count scout and ECM support. Stop writing garbage things plz.
Ilaister Task Force Proteus Protean Concept 113	Posted - 2014.10.15 16:19:00 - [76] - Quote RudinV wrote: Ilaister wrote: Jester is right Andrew Jester wrote: You're dumb MUCH BETTER Pfft. He calls everyone dumb, it's like his catchphrase ;)
Andrew Jester Origin. Black Legion. 718	Posted - 2014.10.15 16:23:00 - [77] - Quote Ilaister wrote: RudinV wrote: Ilaister wrote: Jester is right Andrew Jester wrote: You're dumb MUCH BETTER Pfft. He calls everyone dumb, it's like his catchphrase ;) I wouldn't have to if people weren't stupid :c If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
Ilaister Task Force Proteus Protean Concept 113	Posted - 2014.10.15 16:26:00 - [78] - Quote Ha... and I wouldn't have to post threads exposing the flaws in my intellect if everybody stopped with the ouin ouin and got out into space and shot things. The circle of fingerpointing continues.
Alundil Isogen 5 719	Posted - 2014.10.15 16:35:00 - [79] - Quote Papa Django wrote: Bronya Boga wrote: <- Small corp. Still roll with orcas. It takes 15 seconds. Quit exaggerating Also if you cant afford an orca you are doing wormholes wrong A corp able to roll a 2bil mass connexion in 15 sec is not a small corp. It needs 4 orca and 4 orca pilot to do that, (And it takes closer to a few mins then 15 secs) and i don't count scout and ECM support. Stop writing garbage things plz. Nope. If you can't figure this out with some combo of orca plus battleships and don't have a few pilots/alts who can swap hulls them I'm sorry. But it doesn't take 4 orcas and 4 orca pilots. 1 orca, perhaps 2, and some battleships is all it takes. You should investigate further options provided by mass calc and battleship capable pilots before claiming it can only be done by 4 orcas. In the meantime please let us know where you roll with 4 orcas and we can come offer tips and advice. That is all. I'm right behind you
Alundil Isogen 5 719	Posted - 2014.10.15 16:38:00 - [80] - Quote Papa Django wrote: bleating One might also state that a self described 'small corp' living in C6 space, as well a C2 space, is kind of asking for a difficult time based on split numbers between holes. Just sayin. I'm right behind you
Andrew Jester Origin. Black Legion. 718	Posted - 2014.10.15 16:39:00 - [81] - Quote Ilaister wrote: Ha... and I wouldn't have to post threads exposing the flaws in my intellect if everybody stopped with the ouin ouin and got out into space and shot things. The circle of fingerpointing continues. I shoot things daily, blame isn't on me If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
Obil Que Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance 163	Posted - 2014.10.15 16:47:00 - [82] - Quote Alundil wrote: Papa Django wrote: Bronya Boga wrote: <- Small corp. Still roll with orcas. It takes 15 seconds. Quit exaggerating Also if you cant afford an orca you are doing wormholes wrong A corp able to roll a 2bil mass connexion in 15 sec is not a small corp. It needs 4 orca and 4 orca pilot to do that, (And it takes closer to a few mins then 15 secs) and i don't count scout and ECM support. Stop writing garbage things plz. Nope. If you can't figure this out with some combo of orca plus battleships and don't have a few pilots/alts who can swap hulls them I'm sorry. But it doesn't take 4 orcas and 4 orca pilots. 1 orca, perhaps 2, and some battleships is all it takes. You should investigate further options provided by mass calc and battleship capable pilots before claiming it can only be done by 4 orcas. In the meantime please let us know where you roll with 4 orcas and we can come offer tips and advice. That is all. The minimum bodies you need without introducing polarization delay of 5 minutes is 4 pilots, three who are Orca capable plus 1 Orca and 1 Battleship and it takes longer than 15 seconds. You need to make a total of 3 Orca transits + 1 battleship transit in tandem with 1 of those Orca transits. That's 4 pilots. Pilot 1: Orca in and back (now with some minor slowboating on the other side due to jump distances) - Now polarized Pilot 2: Jumps into Orca makes transit (again with some slowboating and session changes) - Now polarized Pilot 3: Jumps into Orca and with Pilot 4 in a Battleship, close the hole. - Both polarized on the return This isn't at all a "large corp" operation (though your Orca is at a decent level of risk for probably 3 minutes or so while you do this). It isn't, however, a 15 second exercise when using 1 Orca. If you did have 3 Orca pilots and 1 Battleship, you can do it very quickly but as that was pointed out, is also a "weathier" corp option. Size really isn't the factor here.
Bronya Boga Isogen 5 498	Posted - 2014.10.15 19:24:00 - [83] - Quote Obil Que wrote: Alundil wrote: Papa Django wrote: Bronya Boga wrote: <- Small corp. Still roll with orcas. It takes 15 seconds. Quit exaggerating Also if you cant afford an orca you are doing wormholes wrong A corp able to roll a 2bil mass connexion in 15 sec is not a small corp. It needs 4 orca and 4 orca pilot to do that, (And it takes closer to a few mins then 15 secs) and i don't count scout and ECM support. Stop writing garbage things plz. Nope. If you can't figure this out with some combo of orca plus battleships and don't have a few pilots/alts who can swap hulls them I'm sorry. But it doesn't take 4 orcas and 4 orca pilots. 1 orca, perhaps 2, and some battleships is all it takes. You should investigate further options provided by mass calc and battleship capable pilots before claiming it can only be done by 4 orcas. In the meantime please let us know where you roll with 4 orcas and we can come offer tips and advice. That is all. The minimum bodies you need without introducing polarization delay of 5 minutes is 4 pilots, three who are Orca capable plus 1 Orca and 1 Battleship and it takes longer than 15 seconds. You need to make a total of 3 Orca transits + 1 battleship transit in tandem with 1 of those Orca transits. That's 4 pilots. Pilot 1: Orca in and back (now with some minor slowboating on the other side due to jump distances) - Now polarized Pilot 2: Jumps into Orca makes transit (again with some slowboating and session changes) - Now polarized Pilot 3: Jumps into Orca and with Pilot 4 in a Battleship, close the hole. - Both polarized on the return This isn't at all a "large corp" operation (though your Orca is at a decent level of risk for probably 3 minutes or so while you do this). It isn't, however, a 15 second exercise when using 1 Orca. If you did have 3 Orca pilots and 1 Battleship, you can do it very quickly but as that was pointed out, is also a "weathier" corp option. Size really isn't the factor here. Let me clear this the **** up. We have 1 bil static (2 orcas back and forth) ill time my orca next time for travel time. 2 bil holes are a bit trickier but it hasnt gotten much worse then prehyperion. Still 2 bil hole. Still require the same ships. Still the same risk.just takes 15 seconds longer to burn the orca back to the hole. HTFU Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
Obil Que Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance 164	Posted - 2014.10.15 19:39:00 - [84] - Quote Bronya Boga wrote: Let me clear this the ** up. We have 1 bil static (2 orcas back and forth) ill time my orca next time for travel time. 2 bil holes are a bit trickier but it hasnt gotten much worse then prehyperion. Still 2 bil hole. Still require the same ships. Still the same risk.just takes 15 seconds longer** to burn the orca back to the hole. HTFU Emphasis mine. +1 Those 1B mass statics are pretty nice. Living in a C2 with a 1B C1 static and 2B HS and now a C4 with 2B C3, I would thoroughly enjoy slamming a 1B static shut with 2 orca trips. I remember unfondly rolling the C1 for content in a Retreiver. Solo. I'm quite glad now for the Hyperion connections and not having to do much rolling at all to find deep chains to fly in.
Incindir Mauser Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy 475	Posted - 2014.10.15 20:14:00 - [85] - Quote Axloth Okiah wrote: This biggest problem always was and still is how ******* difficult is to have stuff and bring new people to the damned space, ie. POS security, corp roles, etc. Fix that and we are all set for population boom. All this stuff about rolling, conflict drivers, evictions and whatever is secondary to that. I'm still waiting for the personal ship hangar we've been promised to have right after Odyssey. +1 Pretty much this.
unimatrix0030 Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed. 152	Posted - 2014.10.15 20:55:00 - [86] - Quote Axloth Okiah wrote: This biggest problem always was and still is how ******* difficult is to have stuff and bring new people to the damned space, ie. POS security, corp roles, etc. Fix that and we are all set for population boom. All this stuff about rolling, conflict drivers, evictions and whatever is secondary to that. I'm still waiting for the personal ship hangar we've been promised to have right after Odyssey. +1 on this also. There is also a big skill gap between C5 space and c1-c4 space. Sure you can run c5 sites with a couple of basilisks and a few 10 drakes/tengu's but the big pay off is in capital escalations. Wich are quite skill intensive. And doing without those the risk/reward balance is way off, even worse then c4's . And this is one of the big reasons c5-space is empty and does not or get very few new people. Go cap or go lower. Also for c5-space we should emphisize that evictions are rare because they are boring. Nobody gets evicted out of c5 space except to settle a grudge. My Corp was in Transmission Lost and got evicted by disavowed, and we ended up joining them... . Name the last 5 evictions without any grudges please? There are none in the last few years... . For c6 space i think we are ok because of the few number of holes.
RudinV Hard Knocks Inc. 413	Posted - 2014.10.15 21:12:00 - [87] - Quote Aaaand again we can see very well known bias that number after C shows size of the balls of the guys who live there, their skill and courage and blablabla, the funniest thing that 80% of "high" class wh residents are very afraid of cap escalations farm, and even when trying to farm use armor dreads and 3-4cycles per site. Plus to that, wh seems unsettled just because no API anymore, so now u can't say was this hole active 5 mins ago or 1months, CCP wants u to think and feel this space is unkown, the minus of that it's not that interesting aswell
Kirasten No Vacancies 111	Posted - 2014.10.15 23:29:00 - [88] - Quote Random Yotosala wrote: Kirasten wrote: Papa Django wrote: Mister Tuggles wrote: And to people saying you risk losing everything if you get sieged... This isn't really a problem now. I know a few of the large c5/6 corps still attack each other (ADHOC losing their entire system recently), but for the most part no one is going to waste their time attacking anything under a c5. You have no real risk in that department. I have seen / been commited in 5 evictions attempt in wh <=C4 in 4 or 5 months. It happens ... From the POV of a small wh corp CEO trying to build a wh corp in low class wh, it is ... So ******* hard. Reasons are well known : 1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class 2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp 3- Nothing can be done solo 4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory) 5- Skills & knowledge needed for the player (lots of things to know) ( EDIT : And i forgot the discipline needed, lots of player can't bear that) Reasons 1, 2 and 3 could be fixed by CCP. Reasons 4 et 5 are just nice as it is. If you want more people in low class wh, up the blue loots reward and remove Hyperion (mass based jump distance especially). It is the only way. A lot of this is just craziness. I was drug into a c2 before I had even finished the training missions and into a c5 before I could t2 fit the rattlesnakes we use to use for sites. I didn't even know how to play eve. I learned to play eve in a wormhole. So telling people its hard is bollocks. Like most people, I don't like the mass mechanic added in Hyperion, but acting like its so much extra work is just lies. In those low class systems you are talking about, what is the size of the hole? A 1 bil hole takes 2 orcas to slowboat back .. what is that, 15 seconds? So, you've been living in a big corp that does the closing for you. I hope you understand that it's not the case for the small corps. PS: Orcas cost money and time. It's funny that you think you know me. I moved into a c5/c4 with a corp that a 5 person fleet was a really active day. And with a 2 bil static you can bet I took part in rolling almost every time we rolled. No, orcas aren't cheap. But seeing how you can close your static in about 15 seconds, its probably worth the cost
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 1710	Posted - 2014.10.16 00:27:00 - [89] - Quote From my POV, as someone who does take the very few new bros (aka nublets) in from hisec who dare to believe, gives them a training plan and a couple of days training on probing, rollling, cloaking and so on, I agree with those who say that the elitism and overdone T3 + Guardian minimum buy-in shizzle is doing people out of a good time. I have also, consistently said that NO wormhole contains enough ISk inside it to support more than a couple of accounts, even if you don't plex your accounts. PLEX prices are on the rise because, dare I say it, you have clowns abusing ISBoxer and working the maths to farm Incursions or ice or mins or anomalies such that one man's effort is multiplied ten or more times and results in a time-efficient way to plex all the accounts and provide play money on top. This is not tinfoil hattery - how many UnimatrixOX, Borg0X, Versimilidude0X, blah blah blah are there? That's just the more (in)famous, there's dozens and dozens of people running 3-6 accounts via ISBoxer and soaking up bulk amounts of PLEX, doing whatever it is they are doing. (as an aside make no mistake, the reversal of the decloaking problem is solely to nerf ISBoxing bomber wings) That means that the very limited amount of ISK available in wormholes - and however inefficiently you can access it, especially as newbros - becomes less valuable and more time-intensive to PLEX your second account. I mean, when I were a lad I paid PLEX via ninja salvaging in hisec, and had 750M a month spare to buy shinies. Nowadays you can't even ninja salvage 200M a month (tractors being the major factor) and PLEX prices are nudging 800M. So this is how it ends, I think. A game where it's too hard, too expensive and too elitist to go do anything as a new bro;; the elders get burned out and dissatisfied and stop PLEXing their accounts, and activity drains away, leaving a handful of people running 20 accounts each. Wormholes aren't bearing the brunt of the lack of players solely. Aridia used to be the most deserted paart of EVE a few years ago. now it's Kador, and the Dronelands. Hundreds of systems with ~0.2 people per system, and a few systems in the dronelands with mobs of instadocking Rattlesnake / Thanny / AFKtars, all complaining their ISK/hr is not up with incursions. So what do we do as wormholers? I don't know, but certainly addressing the elitism will allow in more players. Keeping them in w-space I think is going to be impossible, as the ISK is just not good enough, and no, moving to C5's is not a solution for newbros. I think the addition of nullsec data and relic, and the buffing of data sites with better loot, may see more itinerants come in chasing them. But even so, the only advantage here is more data herons or maybe the odd Astero with 3 stabs or nanos, that books it the moment anything appears on d-scan. It may help add a bit of sustaining ISK to C1-3 but it still won't be enough to keep people in system. And, again, oon the elitism thing - when you're going to gank a dude, bring something smaller and make it a bit less ridiculous than dropping 10 T3's on a single Drake. Show a bit of skill, if you even have it. On top of that, if everyone pods people out, it adds to the PITA factor of wormhole existence. If you've got lucky enough to catch a guy on the hop, and he's a nub, maybe leaving him alive to reship won't kill you, and if it does, then more fool you. I also appreciate the irony of me saying this after the past week's killboard activity. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au

ISD Cyberdyne ISD Community Communications Liaisons 1593	Posted - 2014.10.16 00:39:00 - [90] - Quote Removed some trolling, disrespectful comments, and personal attacks. Please adhere to the forum rules, otherwise you risk your forum posting privileges. Thanks. Quote: 2. Be respectful toward others at all times. The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others. 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. 5. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. ISD Cyberdyne Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

Derek Wiildstar Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 20	Posted - 2014.10.16 01:28:00 - [91] - Quote Something that I had hoped Worm holes would have: Random dragons. Once upon a time in a game called WOW there were a few epic dragons that would randomly spawn. For a while when the game was young we'd have mass PvP fights over who would be allowed to kill the dragon before people got really organized and camped the dragons 24/7 with alts. I fought in battles that lasted 2-3 hours over said dragons and win or lose it was great sandbox content. The randomness of WH's takes care of camping issue that killed such content in wow and WH space ideally setup to have something odd and never encountered before to popup randomly. It could be something like a random spawn of some ancient malfunction sleeper drone that's built itself upto to the size of a very small moon by consuming everything in it's path. It would wander around it's hole looking for structures or players to consume and it would take a large group of players a while to take him down (low damage, high HP). Only found on DSCAN and it should encourage groups of players to fight over who's allowed to kill the it. EVE is really lacking when it comes to PvE encounters that led to PvP Brawls over the content. We're starting to see some fun brawls with exploration now that most people are using the same ships and are competing over the loot found in explorations sites. I'd like to see this trend continue with epic sized sleepers in W-Space. Start making PvE bosses like we see in other MMO's but in EVE's open sandbox environment. Here's a picture of what I want the first epic sleeper to look like: http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/385014-eve-online-windows-screenshot-players-can-explore-this-rogue.png
Thomas Hurt Future Methods 335	Posted - 2014.10.16 14:26:00 - [92] - Quote It comes down to Isk Vs. Risk. If you're not running capital escalations, the general hassle of wormhole living and the lack of local makes the isk fairly bad compared to Incursions or whatever.
Nash MacAllister Anomalous Existence Low-Class 197	Posted - 2014.10.16 15:20:00 - [93] - Quote Thomas Hurt wrote: It comes down to Isk Vs. Risk. If you're not running capital escalations, the general hassle of wormhole living and the lack of local makes the isk fairly bad compared to Incursions or whatever. But so what? I like risk, that's why I live and operate in wspace. I don't play an Internet Spaceship Game to maximize how much imaginary space currency I can make and call it fun because it clearly isn't. *Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...*
Obil Que Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance 169	Posted - 2014.10.16 15:58:00 - [94] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: From my POV, as someone who does take the very few new bros (aka nublets) in from hisec who dare to believe, gives them a training plan and a couple of days training on probing, rollling, cloaking and so on, I agree with those who say that the elitism and overdone T3 + Guardian minimum buy-in shizzle is doing people out of a good time. I have also, consistently said that NO wormhole contains enough ISk inside it to support more than a couple of accounts, even if you don't plex your accounts. PLEX prices are on the rise because, dare I say it, you have clowns abusing ISBoxer and working the maths to farm Incursions or ice or mins or anomalies such that one man's effort is multiplied ten or more times and results in a time-efficient way to plex all the accounts and provide play money on top. Perhaps in how people operate in wormhole space currently but I don't think this is true universally. There are mountains of ISK sitting in w-space. I see it every day as I move around chains. Combat sites, datas, relics, all sitting fallow with no one running them. Groups only considering their home anoms or those in their immediate static perhaps are left without enough content depending on the group size. But if a group is truly that large, they should be more than equipped to raid holes all up and down the chain for PvE. A dirty thought, yes I know but... It's interesting to me that as PvP'ers, groups spend significant time looking for PvE pilots to attack. Yet it almost seems that if PvP groups took to mass PvE in PvP capable ships (see TXGsycn's recent blog posts on how relatively easy this is especially in C3 space) that they'd probably attract other PvP groups and get the fights they're looking for. And if not, they've padded their wallet all along the way. I guess maybe that's a pipe dream that PvE and PvP in w-space wouldn't be mutually exclusive and at odds with each other but how attractive would that be to both types of players if a corp went ranging across w-space, crushing sleepers, collecting ISK, and taking on anyone who dared confront them? The efficiency experts will decry it isn't the most ISK/hr activity but aren't so many of us extolling the fun quotient to our play?
350125GO Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept 116	Posted - 2014.10.16 16:06:00 - [95] - Quote I think the problem in WHs is can be broken-down to a few things (notice the similarity to what resulted in the blue-doughnut): 1: Bittervets: lot's of whining going on in this thread, especially from former WH occupants 2: Win Eve Button: Bittervets complain more and more about making WH life easier, not about keeping it challenging or engaging (see thread(s) on allowing jump clones in WH space and all the whinging here and elsewhere about the mass related changes from Hyperion) 3: Isk per Hour: Isk per hour seems to have dominated all aspects of Eve and it's not for the good. People won't do anything unless it maxes out their isk/hr, and the everyone seems to point out how anyone new isn't maxing this out. Who cares if you can make more isk/hr running a relic site if you enjoy running combat sites? The WH community needs to speak about the fun we have, not how we maximize profits. Especially since most WH occupants claim to be only PVPrs that PVE is secondary. If that's the truth, then stop complaining about low class holes not being worth the effort. 4: Rise of the megacorps: It happens. Smaller corps go through slow periods (see this past summer) and people start leaving for the larger entities because they're the only ones that have enough people on line to do something. Then the larger corps/alliances can't find fights because the small corps can only field 5-10 ships against a 20man T3 fleet (unless of course it's Snails and Frogs, then they won't field a 20man fleet against a 10 man fleet because... who knows). Stop spinning your ships and have fun again. I'd also like to recommend that WH corps continue publicizing when they prey on nullbears like the recent Lazerhawks v. Fraternity reports. People will come to us when they know we eat bears for lunch. You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
RudinV Hard Knocks Inc. 414	Posted - 2014.10.16 16:32:00 - [96] - Quote u shouldnt say "we eat bears for lunch", not so long time ago, BU n QEX were eating bears for the breakfast, lunch, dinner and lots of times, we being very hungry smashed few frigos even at night. Bears didnt like this. bears whined to CCP and they "fixed" wspace> removed around 30-40% of residents (no i dont have numbers, just my friendlist says this)... so plz, be carefull when u talk about bears, unless u want to have only high sec exits
Obil Que Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance 169	Posted - 2014.10.16 17:07:00 - [97] - Quote All this makes me wonder, maybe the question is "What is worth fighting over in w-space?" Take a couple common understandings 1. Ganks in wormhole space, while entertaining is sub-optimal PvP experpience for all involved 2. Evictions in wormhole space are generally few and far between (listen to the latest DtP for commentary on this) 3. PvP engagements can end in two fleets wanting the other to jump into them with neither wanting to give this advantage. How often is this the case? 4. There is more than enough PvE sites for corps to run to fill their coffers. Do PvP groups do this typically to fund themselves or are PvP corps and members filling their wallets with alt activities not related to w-space? What are we fighting over? We're not fighting over sites. It's hard to say if this was ever an intent of wormhole space but the reality is they are not scarce resources to be fought over. We're not fighting over systems. More than enough to go around and rarely will two groups desire the same space. Are people fighting just to fight? Is this as any kind of a sustainable effort? Fights cost ISK to one or both sides. ISK that has to be replaced. Are wormhole members commonly making their ISK outside of wormholes? Sure, you have the few dedicated w-space residents that scout and scan and look. It is commonly thought that PvP fleets are then waiting for the ping, running on alts, out of game, simply there to engage and disappear. I have admittedly not lived in a PvP corp so I would love to hear if this is not the case. I would guess that a smaller PvP corp where the gang or fleet size is most active members, it isn't. But for a corp of a size where you reach the point where the ISK cannot support the corp, are they naturally drawn then out of w-space, on alt characters, doing other things to make ISK instead of operating in w-space thus adding to the emptiness? Is an answer to the OP question then that we need something w-space related to fight over and what would that look like?
Agondray Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces 143	Posted - 2014.10.16 17:59:00 - [98] - Quote I used to live there and hardly got to do anything, the alliance/corp i was in was killboard **** and didnt want anyone doing anything in the worm hole unless eyes were on every wh in and out. Other then mining which i couldnt do with out having multiple alts was sleeper hunting which they did in dreadnoughts and a couple of carriers and still did not happen until all wh eyes were covered. lastly they were arrogent, spouting off their mouthes and quickly panicked when a merc corp strated bringing in caps to kill them, and they could wage a proper war logging in to do nothing when they wanted to kick a corp out of another wormhole, bashed 2 unarmed towers while the merc corp and the corp they were attacking showed force and then my corp ceo and all tucked tail. "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Moonlit Raid State War Academy Caldari State 204	Posted - 2014.10.16 22:57:00 - [99] - Quote Hatshepsut IV wrote: People have this opinion of wormholes being this place with an incredibly high bar of entry in a game which already has a huge bar of entry learning curvewise. That sort of filters out a lot of people who might otherwise come here. Tl;dr Scanning is hard? Scanning is boring. I've been in long enough to know how even more boring it was before you could automatically arrange your probes, launch them all at once, resize the array in a single command. It's still boring. I dunno, something like a POS module that scans down whs? How about that? If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 1715	Posted - 2014.10.16 23:32:00 - [100] - Quote Obil Que wrote: Trinkets friend wrote: From my POV, as someone who does take the very few new bros (aka nublets) in from hisec who dare to believe, gives them a training plan and a couple of days training on probing, rollling, cloaking and so on, I agree with those who say that the elitism and overdone T3 + Guardian minimum buy-in shizzle is doing people out of a good time. I have also, consistently said that NO wormhole contains enough ISk inside it to support more than a couple of accounts, even if you don't plex your accounts. PLEX prices are on the rise because, dare I say it, you have clowns abusing ISBoxer and working the maths to farm Incursions or ice or mins or anomalies such that one man's effort is multiplied ten or more times and results in a time-efficient way to plex all the accounts and provide play money on top. Perhaps in how people operate in wormhole space currently but I don't think this is true universally. There are mountains of ISK sitting in w-space. I see it every day as I move around chains. Combat sites, datas, relics, all sitting fallow with no one running them. Groups only considering their home anoms or those in their immediate static perhaps are left without enough content depending on the group size. But if a group is truly that large, they should be more than equipped to raid holes all up and down the chain for PvE. A dirty thought, yes I know but... It's interesting to me that as PvP'ers, groups spend significant time looking for PvE pilots to attack. Yet it almost seems that if PvP groups took to mass PvE in PvP capable ships (see TXGsycn's recent blog posts on how relatively easy this is especially in C3 space) that they'd probably attract other PvP groups and get the fights they're looking for. And if not, they've padded their wallet all along the way. I guess maybe that's a pipe dream that PvE and PvP in w-space wouldn't be mutually exclusive and at odds with each other but how attractive would that be to both types of players if a corp went ranging across w-space, crushing sleepers, collecting ISK, and taking on anyone who dared confront them? The efficiency experts will decry it isn't the most ISK/hr activity but aren't so many of us extolling the fun quotient to our play? J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
Teleil Zoomers Usque Ad Mortem TCC. 3	Posted - 2014.10.16 23:35:00 - [101] - Quote im going out on a limb and gonna take a wild guess that its a comibination of things. subscriptions down, active log ins low, etc. if you are in a 25 man corp and only 3 people are online its kind of hard to do anything in jspace unless your ducks are in a row.
Kirasten No Vacancies 111	Posted - 2014.10.17 00:29:00 - [102] - Quote Teleil Zoomers wrote: im going out on a limb and gonna take a wild guess that its a comibination of things. subscriptions down, active log ins low, etc. if you are in a 25 man corp and only 3 people are online its kind of hard to do anything in jspace unless your ducks are in a row. Part of the point is "why are subscriptions and log ins down?"
Obil Que Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance 173	Posted - 2014.10.17 03:00:00 - [103] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: Obil Que wrote: Stuff and things Stuff and missing the point epeen waving Reinforcing stereotypes pffft
Senn Denroth Lazerhawks 221	Posted - 2014.10.17 03:14:00 - [104] - Quote As a leader in one of the larger corps out there I will tell you that the success of your corp in w-space does not fall down to the activity levels of other corps in w-space. It does impact the provision of content to a degree but will not define you as a success of a failure in w-space. The content is out there, you just have to find it! Yes Lazerhawks is a PVP focused entity living in w-space but above all we are out there to provide content to our members and keep it fun for everyone, whether that means we roam out null, go push someone elseGÇÖs castle over for whatever reason, we do it because overall it is a game and we want good content for our members. W-space has defeated many corps & alliances but normally all pertain to internal issues. KILL alliance for instance suffered from command issues (can't wait for g0hme to find this post and post up some BS) that I tried addressing but all fell on deaf ears, resulting in the active member base moving corps, something fresh, something active, with an understanding that if you don't provide content for your members w-space will be dead, but only for your members. What I mean by that is that w-space has lots of content out there. For me most nights it means logging in to our AU TZ and running some sites, scanning chains, doing production, but doing it actively with the other 10-15 members we have online at the time. Is there PVP all the time? No there isn't. Has it always been that way? Yes it has, ever since wormholes were introduced. Big doughnut? I laugh at that when I see those kinds of comments. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=25571398 or http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24484287 We're simply good mates that shoot each other in a spaceship game, providing each other with content in w-space, pretty simple really. Wormholes are not dead, however there may be a bit of stagnation at the moment but that's only because some of the larger corps that have leadership that are either not promoting or not even providing content generation in some way for their members. We saw this revealed recently when ADHC being mostly away from game, unable to field fleets etc, get their castle smashed over by SSC. It was content for both corps, and I think I can say very fun for both sides. There is also a second reason in that some smaller corps either donGÇÖt have the right motivation towards w-space, or are continually trying to hit above their weight without success. To the smaller corps out there that want to get in to wormhole space or are already in but struggling, I suggest you first review what players you have and how many. Realistically look at getting a wormhole for the size of your corp, or even a lower class wormhole making less ISK but being more manageable is going to be better for your members if theyGÇÖre having more fun. When I started out in OMFG we settled in a C2 with a HS/C3 static. You can operate in something like this quite easily, make a little bit of ISK. Get used to wormhole life, recruit, grow, or merge with a bigger corp when you want to move up. Even a C2 w HS/C4 works, easy access to kspace, you can farm your static and explore up the chain via the C4 static. So in the end, what does it come down to? People! If you know people in w-space, you will do well. People and PVP is deeply integrated in w-space, and deeply integrated in what makes this game popular. Generally we've found smaller entities that are ballsier than some of the larger stagnated bittervet corps/alliances in w-space seem to have more fun, and grow to be a much better corp in EVE/w-space. From that they get my respect, help and in a lot of cases they get some sort of protection from that respect. ItGÇÖs almost like they have a bit of a right to stay in w-space because they're helping provide content to other corps and their members. But for some however theyGÇÖre only in it for the numbers. They see PVP in w-space as an inconvenience and a hindrance when trying to meet their ISK targets. This I can tell you for sure is the wrong motive to be in w-space and even so in EVE as a whole. Please for the love of all that is holy change your thinking because this if you do think this because you are part of the stagnation of w-space. This example can apply to some larger entities that end up hording w-space members with this focus on non-PVP; mark my words, your stay in w-space will come to an end. Someone will come and push your sand castle over and you will lose it all. In the end, EVE is a people game, a social experiment in a way. ItGÇÖs about relationships, trust, loyalty, socialisation. And w-space only magnifies these aspects of the game. Sorry for the textwall. /end rant
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 775	Posted - 2014.10.17 03:35:00 - [105] - Quote Not a rant Senn. You have a lot of good talking points. Obil Que wrote: All this makes me wonder, maybe the question is "What is worth fighting over in w-space?" Take a couple common understandings 1. Ganks in wormhole space, while entertaining is sub-optimal PvP experpience for all involved 2. Evictions in wormhole space are generally few and far between (listen to the latest DtP for commentary on this) 3. PvP engagements can end in two fleets wanting the other to jump into them with neither wanting to give this advantage. How often is this the case? 4. There is more than enough PvE sites for corps to run to fill their coffers. Do PvP groups do this typically to fund themselves or are PvP corps and members filling their wallets with alt activities not related to w-space? What are we fighting over? We're not fighting over sites. It's hard to say if this was ever an intent of wormhole space but the reality is they are not scarce resources to be fought over. We're not fighting over systems. More than enough to go around and rarely will two groups desire the same space. Are people fighting just to fight? Is this as any kind of a sustainable effort? Fights cost ISK to one or both sides. ISK that has to be replaced. Are wormhole members commonly making their ISK outside of wormholes? Sure, you have the few dedicated w-space residents that scout and scan and look. It is commonly thought that PvP fleets are then waiting for the ping, running on alts, out of game, simply there to engage and disappear. I have admittedly not lived in a PvP corp so I would love to hear if this is not the case. I would guess that a smaller PvP corp where the gang or fleet size is most active members, it isn't. But for a corp of a size where you reach the point where the ISK cannot support the corp, are they naturally drawn then out of w-space, on alt characters, doing other things to make ISK instead of operating in w-space thus adding to the emptiness? Is an answer to the OP question then that we need something w-space related to fight over and what would that look like? This is my major concern. Ownership of a wormhole means basically nothing, but they can't really give wormholes a value without regiggering alot of things. Occupancy based wormhole site spawns? Better Site Spawns? Honestly, there needs to be loot. People do nullsec for isk and loot. Now we have the isk, but we have no loot. We all play videogames (mmo's specifically) for two things. One is to kill each other, and the second is to get phat lewt. Highsec has it with missions, lowsec has it with faction warfare and lp stores, nullsec has it with officer sites, and ded's, wormholes... They have just started with a few Ghost Sites, and future Nullsec Data/Relic sites. There need to be either the option for module drops from the end of running a combat site, or the option for items to build wormhole equipment dropping out of sites. You create a goldrush, and you'll have people flying in. Yaay!!!!
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 368	Posted - 2014.10.17 04:46:00 - [106] - Quote Don't you think that maybe putting some extra minerals or even ice in to the lower populated catagories of wormholes would work too? This obsession with ganking can only be fueled by having things to gank. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
Andiedeath Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance 286	Posted - 2014.10.17 06:23:00 - [107] - Quote Papa Django wrote: Mister Tuggles wrote: And to people saying you risk losing everything if you get sieged... This isn't really a problem now. I know a few of the large c5/6 corps still attack each other (ADHOC losing their entire system recently), but for the most part no one is going to waste their time attacking anything under a c5. You have no real risk in that department. I have seen / been commited in 5 evictions attempt in wh <=C4 in 4 or 5 months. It happens ... From the POV of a small wh corp CEO trying to build a wh corp in low class wh, it is ... So ******* hard. Reasons are well known : 1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class 2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp 3- Nothing can be done solo 4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory) 5- Skills & knowledge needed for the player (lots of things to know) ( EDIT : And i forgot the discipline needed, lots of player can't bear that) Reasons 1, 2 and 3 could be fixed by CCP. Reasons 4 et 5 are just nice as it is. If you want more people in low class wh, up the blue loots reward and remove Hyperion (mass based jump distance especially). It is the only way. I agree and disagree with some of these points... Here is my take. Point 1 - No one would disagree the balance between class 1-4, incursions and class 5-6 wormholes is NOT right. Based on difficulty I would suggest that Class 4 wormholes should be a similar isk per hour to Vanguards for a reasonable sized group 5-10. Class 3 = Assaults and Class 2 = scouts and Class 1's as they are now. Point 2 - To be honest I support Hyperion and the changes it brought, wormholes needed a shake up and we got it... FINALLY! I also think CCP has listened... Mostly... As they have toned down the spawn rate of the frigate wormholes and added some graphical and non-graphic ways to know the difference. This also helps with C1 (Medium ship) connections as well. I do think that the mass-based spawn distance should have been a large random spawn for ALL ship types Can spawn between randomly between 2 and 15km for instance) but thats just my personal opinion as I haven't validated that with the wider community as yet. Point 3 - All class 1 - 4 sites can be solo'd (other than maybe class 4 data/relic sites) Class 1 - Destroyer/T2 Frigate/T1 Cruiser Class 2 - HAC or Faction Cruiser Class 3 - Battle cruiser and strategic cruisers Class 4 - Marauders and carriers (though caps of course need to be built there) Point 4 - This just isn't true for lower class wormholes such as class 1-2. If your in a group with logistics you can also still be useful up to class 4 wormholes as we have seen in our class 4 and newer players. New players are generally scared of coming into wormhole space or recruiters are scared of letting them in... I for one WAS one of them. Although recently I have let numerous low SP character and found as long as they can at least cloak while warping (astero or Covert Ops Frigate) and have astrometics 4 and the other support skills to 2 they can be an effective part of the wormhole community. Point 5 - This is by far the biggest problem. I dont believe CCP does anywhere near enough to train/help new pilots in all aspects of EVE, all be it, it is much better than when I started in 2009. Players need knowledge to be able to leave their newbie system... Being a sandbox of course they should only assist pilots uptil a certain point although I believe the newbie experience still does not go far enough to keep new playersThis is something that I believe CCP needs to work on along with a much more active marketing program. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
stup idity 73	Posted - 2014.10.17 07:34:00 - [108] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: The problem here, and the point of mine which you missed, is not about ISK/hr. it's about ISK/day per wormhole. To repeat myself, ad nauseum, if for example a C4 site is worth 80M ISK and you get 2 per day your hole generates 160M ISK per day. Full stop. Every month, therefore, a C4 is worth 4.8 billion ISK, plus PI. That is nigh on 5 toons worth of PLEX, or 2.5 meatbods of residents assuming your income goes towards PLEX. Therefore, for group sizes above 5, any C4 wormhole is unsustainable (plus or minus PI, but assume 300M a month you push it out to 10 residents). Minus expenses (fuel, ships). I like this part of your post. One thing I like to add: PI alone can PLEX an account with relatively low skill and time investment if all three characters are used and the planets aren't totally **. Trinkets friend wrote:** True, people can farm their statics, but this becomes an equation of the total pool of C4 wormholes. Given 550 C4's and 2.5 stable residents per wormhole, C4's can (plus or minus PI, mining, gassing, data and relic income) support a total of 1375 accounts via PLEX. That's your hard upper limit, without the residents being on subscription. So assume another 1375 subbed accounts and you have a population of 5 toons per wormhole. And here I disagree. The theoretical upper limit of daily isk gain in a c4 (and any other class) is as high as 'home sites you can run undisturbed per day' * 'value of site'. The reason is pretty simple: each site that is finished will respawn shortly after in your constellation. (wh-systems) Permanent farming of an entire constellation is not very realistic, of course. Nevertheless, the achievable income increases with more actively farning people and therefore the cap of sustainable accounts per system can only be determined on the (perceived) status quo of your constellation and cannot be projected on other areas of c4-space or other activity levels. I am the Herald of all beings that are me.
Fehyd Rautha Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred 2	Posted - 2014.10.17 07:54:00 - [109] - Quote As someone who recently made the decisions to permanently move in to WHs, I'll write my findings. Before moving in, I only did some day tripping, lower class farming, ... I permanently moved in to WH because I like their 'unforgiving' nature. I like how it requires a certain amount of independence and I also really dislike the current null meta. The Cap/Super play style is just not my thing. I much more enjoy smaller gang engagements. Points made previously; Quote: Reasons are well known : 1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class 2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp 3- Nothing can be done solo 4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory) 5- Skills & knowledge needed for the player (lots of things to know) ( EDIT : And i forgot the discipline needed, lots of player can't bear that) - It's true that running incursions is better isk and much more relaxing than farming lower class WHs. In our C6, we make far more isk/hr running the sites, but they are a limited resources where as incursions can be run all day long really. I can make a lot more cash in High sec, than in j-space, simply because I can run incursions pretty much semi-AFK, all day long. - Hyperion has left me and I think the larger groups largely unaffected. If anything, we've found a fair bit of content using the frig holes. Rolling is about the same. I can see how it's harder for the small corps though. - I used to do the lower class holes solo, works fine. Never lost a ship. It's much more demanding than ie. incursions though. To be honest, EVE should be played with other players. - This is debatable. Lower class can definitely be done with anything. It is true that the more settled high class WH corps fly around in t3s. I suppose this can be disheartening when your own cruiser and BC fleet keeps running in to superior T3 fleets. On the other hand, skilling for t3s doesn't take that long and people can contribute to fleets in other ships too, ie. logi, ewar, tackle, scanning, ... - It is true that WH can be a bit of a daunting project for new players. There is much to learn. Scanning can be a challange, navigating wormholes can be tricky. Personally, I think this is up to us, the community. Joining an established corp can make this process a lot easier, as there's settled people who can answer your questions. That said, once everything was done, I found it quite easy to get in replacements, navigate the chains, make round trips to trade hubs to restock on ammo, paste, ... Quote: All this makes me wonder, maybe the question is "What is worth fighting over in w-space?" What are we fighting over? I just fight for fun. I don't really look to gain anything. I play and get in to fights for my enjoyment. I like the PVP aspect of EVE. For me this is entertainment, if you really want to boil it down to the basics. Personally, I fund my PvP with sites. I don't PvE often just enough to replace losses. Saving up billions in liquid cash doesn't really appeal to me. I have ships, I have a bunch of replacements and that's just good for me. :P
Chaotix Morwen Ugly Duckling Inc 16	Posted - 2014.10.17 07:55:00 - [110] - Quote Phoenix Jones wrote: Not a rant Senn. You have a lot of good talking points. Obil Que wrote: All this makes me wonder, maybe the question is "What is worth fighting over in w-space?" Take a couple common understandings 1. Ganks in wormhole space, while entertaining is sub-optimal PvP experpience for all involved 2. Evictions in wormhole space are generally few and far between (listen to the latest DtP for commentary on this) 3. PvP engagements can end in two fleets wanting the other to jump into them with neither wanting to give this advantage. How often is this the case? 4. There is more than enough PvE sites for corps to run to fill their coffers. Do PvP groups do this typically to fund themselves or are PvP corps and members filling their wallets with alt activities not related to w-space? What are we fighting over? We're not fighting over sites. It's hard to say if this was ever an intent of wormhole space but the reality is they are not scarce resources to be fought over. We're not fighting over systems. More than enough to go around and rarely will two groups desire the same space. Are people fighting just to fight? Is this as any kind of a sustainable effort? Fights cost ISK to one or both sides. ISK that has to be replaced. Are wormhole members commonly making their ISK outside of wormholes? Sure, you have the few dedicated w-space residents that scout and scan and look. It is commonly thought that PvP fleets are then waiting for the ping, running on alts, out of game, simply there to engage and disappear. I have admittedly not lived in a PvP corp so I would love to hear if this is not the case. I would guess that a smaller PvP corp where the gang or fleet size is most active members, it isn't. But for a corp of a size where you reach the point where the ISK cannot support the corp, are they naturally drawn then out of w-space, on alt characters, doing other things to make ISK instead of operating in w-space thus adding to the emptiness? Is an answer to the OP question then that we need something w-space related to fight over and what would that look like? This is my major concern. Ownership of a wormhole means basically nothing, but they can't really give wormholes a value without regiggering alot of things. Occupancy based wormhole site spawns? Better Site Spawns? Honestly, there needs to be loot. People do nullsec for isk and loot. Now we have the isk, but we have no loot. We all play videogames (mmo's specifically) for two things. One is to kill each other, and the second is to get phat lewt. Highsec has it with missions, lowsec has it with faction warfare and lp stores, nullsec has it with officer sites, and ded's, wormholes... They have just started with a few Ghost Sites, and future Nullsec Data/Relic sites. There need to be either the option for module drops from the end of running a combat site, or the option for items to build wormhole equipment dropping out of sites. You create a goldrush, and you'll have people flying in. You do know that t3s can only be produced from the salvage you get from sleepers right? Theyre the definition of wormhole equipment.
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 167	Posted - 2014.10.17 09:31:00 - [111] - Quote Chaotix Morwen wrote: You do know that t3s can only be produced from the salvage you get from sleepers right? Theyre the definition of wormhole equipment. But I think you agree that making profit from building a T3 from sleeper salvage is perhaps not quite as accessible as say, building a Gila from a BPC that dropped from a site you ran in 8 minutes.
Aladar Dangerface Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept 14	Posted - 2014.10.17 10:19:00 - [112] - Quote I like pancakes...................wait what were we talking about?
Kirasten No Vacancies 112	Posted - 2014.10.17 11:01:00 - [113] - Quote Phooey to not enough activity in w-space. We just got in a proper fight with Ixtab, although losses were minimal. Saw NoHo scouting through, but was unable to engage. Tried to get a fight with Dropbears and as we were just about to engage, Exit Strategy engaged them instead with a more impressive fleet than we could do anything but whelp against. The chain was very active tonight. See you all tomorrow. o/
Obil Que Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance 175	Posted - 2014.10.17 12:35:00 - [114] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: Obil Que wrote: Stuff and things I think you have got it all wrong here because you don't think past proximal evidence and look at systematics. Yes, there's "mountains" of ISK in wormholes. I assume you are considering a bunch of towers in an occupied system as constituting these alleged "mountains"or the fact people have hangars stocked with T3's. No. I was referring to the dirty PvE sites that proliferate w-space, untouched. You missed my point entirely and as stup idity pointed out and which you dismiss through some questionable equations is that the total value of w-space is not based on 2 spawns per week per system (factoring into your 2.5 meatbods per hole). This simply isn't based in reality. There is no knowledge of exactly how many sites there are in the entirety of w-space. The "mountains" of ISK I was referring to are those unoccupied systems that collect sites like flotsam, the systems where the dirty carebears who don't even run combat sites and simply use w-space for reaction towers and the like collect anoms. I see them all the time while out in space. Trinkets friend wrote: To further elaborate - if you clean your home hole, you get nothing more no matter how much effort you put in, so you log or leave (or, if a PVPer, hunt). in k-space, you can bang out missions day in and day out at a ISK/hr rate, etc. Every hour you devote to gaming rewards you. Not so in w-space. Very swftly, every hour you play begins making you nothing. So people leave. This is precisely the current thought process I referred to originally. That once you clear your home or maybe don't see X in your static, you are done. Why? Why is not the attitude to jump through those chains to find more? Why can't a corp range far and wide in a fleet capable of collecting the "mountains of ISK" in PvE sites in PvP capable ships? Would this not, if applied to more corporations, make for a more active w-space? Wouldn't this then be something to drive conflict because it seems to me that w-space doesn't really have anything to fight over... Trinkets friend wrote: Second point, you are clearly pained in the buttocks about losing PVE ships in wormhole space. Yes, i checked you on zkilllboard. Again. no. Thank you though for perpetuating the idea through the insinuation behind it that l33t PvP is the only game in town and someone who does PvE is somehow less of a worthy EVE player. It is the attitude that in many ways keeps new corporations, like mine, from ever wanting to enter w-space. I've operated this corp for over a year in w-space. I've taken great pride in being a corp that is different than that view, that welcomes new players and introduces them to w-space, that is a home for players who cannot devote hours and hours to gameplay such as burning someone out of their hole 23/7 for three days (I do enjoy reading about things like this on your blog, however, it is a very different side of EVE than I can play). As Senn said, EVE is a people game and I very much enjoy the style we play and the people I get to play with. It may look then to you as butthurt carebears. So be it. That attitude though of "cowering bears" applied to any group that 1) enjoys PvE because it is accessible content to their limited play 2) cannot bring a "gudfight" against a larger more organized group is part of what keeps smaller organizations out of w-space altogether, in my opinion. Trinkets friend wrote: Your accusation that PVP pilots spend time looking for PVE pilots to attack is erroneous, a falsity based on your own experiences. Personally, as Marlona Sky's fat goateed w-space cousin, I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get PVP pilots to attack my Nereus, and every so often it works. I also spend inordinate amounts of time trying to find PVE characters with buds, to tackle and troll out the buds. Often this is done via tackling T3's in my Nereus, hotdrop style. Or tackling hulks in my Nereus. Or anything, really. I attack PVE ships in my hauler to get them to fight back. Then, of course, my mates jump in and shoot the foes. It's called a Nereus And Switch. And it works. I love your Nereus. It is sitting in my EFT and I've highlighted it to my corp from the day I saw it on your blog. My point wasn't at all that PvE corps don't exist, that "cowering carebears" aren't based in reality. Of course they are, some corporations are like that. Some corporations also simply can't compete at your Nereus and Switch level either when the switch happens. My point was that maybe w-space would be a better place if the PvE corp had a place in the PvP corp towards a future w-space where those were less of separate actions and more of a single entity. Where the norm wasn't either "my sleeper Domi" or "my T3 blob" but something in between (as I mentioned referencing TXGsync) that had a different dynamic to w-space instead of us and them...maybe that's Obil Que's ideal world...
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 776	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:37:00 - [115] - Quote Chaotix Morwen wrote: You do know that t3s can only be produced from the salvage you get from sleepers right? Theyre the definition of wormhole equipment. Its the only thing that can be made out of salvage. You make either a T3, or a subsystem. That's it. Modules? Nope Rigs? Nope Ammo? Nope Scripts? Nope Probes? Nope Drugs? Nope Pos Equipment? Nope Anything besides a T3 cruiser? Nope. If there was more "variation" on what you could potentially build and use with Salvage from Sleepers, then yes salvage would go up, blueloot would rise, etc etc. Right now you build T3's, and nothing else. Yaay!!!!
Lloyd Roses Blue-Fire 719	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:43:00 - [116] - Quote Good thing T3s, with all their advantages, skill reqs etc. are this lucrative to build. Oh wait. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
350125GO Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept 118	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:49:00 - [117] - Quote For a group of player that complain heartily about nullbears, there sure is a lot of talk in this thread about how much money you can make and when you can do it. You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
Lakshata Chawla Blue-Fire 105	Posted - 2014.10.17 17:48:00 - [118] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: Good thing T3s, with all their advantages, skill reqs etc. are this lucrative to build. Oh wait. And then you cant even assemble then in Wspace.
Chaotix Morwen Ugly Duckling Inc 16	Posted - 2014.10.17 21:40:00 - [119] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Chaotix Morwen wrote: You do know that t3s can only be produced from the salvage you get from sleepers right? Theyre the definition of wormhole equipment. But I think you agree that making profit from building a T3 from sleeper salvage is perhaps not quite as accessible as say, building a Gila from a BPC that dropped from a site you ran in 8 minutes. Why should a highly specialized and advanced product be as accessible as t1 gear? Just like everything in wh's, you need to put in some extra effort. I build t3's on the side and i can assure i can make more building them than any Gila, mostly because t3 bpcs rarely cost me more than 1 million isk :P Maybe if you guys stop expecting everything to pump isk into your wallet as soon as you pick it up you will be a lot happier in whs. If you lot want to get faction bpc drops that take 1 hour to skill to build i recommend you head to Null, where you can join your instant gratification buddies.
Chaotix Morwen Ugly Duckling Inc 16	Posted - 2014.10.17 21:46:00 - [120] - Quote Phoenix Jones wrote: Chaotix Morwen wrote: You do know that t3s can only be produced from the salvage you get from sleepers right? Theyre the definition of wormhole equipment. Its the only thing that can be made out of salvage. You make either a T3, or a subsystem. That's it. Modules? Nope Rigs? Nope Ammo? Nope Scripts? Nope Probes? Nope Drugs? Nope Pos Equipment? Nope Anything besides a T3 cruiser? Nope. If there was more "variation" on what you could potentially build and use with Salvage from Sleepers, then yes salvage would go up, blueloot would rise, etc etc. Right now you build T3's, and nothing else. Yes you can only build t3's, its not like they're the most powerful ship that has stats that can only be beaten by capital ships, that has massive demand and little supply. If your just looking to get salvage prices up id assume your not building them...try building a few then complain about not getting much isk. Also why the hell would blue loot go up? Blue loot is not used in any construction, its sold directly to npcs...i highly doubt that will ever change.
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 1721	Posted - 2014.10.17 23:44:00 - [121] - Quote T3 production is a pain in the butt. You need gases, metals to make metallofullerenes. You need ribbons. You need minerals. You make precorsor components, which make second stage components, etc etc and blah blah blah. Gila BPC's drop from some stupid rat which takes no effort to kill, or a can which is essentially undefended in a data site, you get 6 minerals and can build it anywhere. You can't research it, true, but you don't need to. Stratios BPC's you go molest some highsec missions for a few hours, and lets be honest, you can blitz most missions quite efficiently. You save up your LP's and the Sisters of EVE just give the BPC to you. Add minerals, bingo. Or they now drop from drone complexes, if you bother doing them. So, yes, you can make money from T3 producton. But which stage of T3 production? Does anyone do all stages of T3 production, and if so, is the effort and value-add worth it? Do you do all stages, from blapping red crosses and huffing farts, to reacting metallofullerenes, blowing IQ on the minigame in data sites to get the relic components to feed into research to make the blueprints, to cook the subsystems? I doubt it. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
Chaotix Morwen Ugly Duckling Inc 16	Posted - 2014.10.18 06:40:00 - [122] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: T3 production is a pain in the butt. You need gases, metals to make metallofullerenes. You need ribbons. You need minerals. You make precorsor components, which make second stage components, etc etc and blah blah blah. Gila BPC's drop from some stupid rat which takes no effort to kill, or a can which is essentially undefended in a data site, you get 6 minerals and can build it anywhere. You can't research it, true, but you don't need to. Stratios BPC's you go molest some highsec missions for a few hours, and lets be honest, you can blitz most missions quite efficiently. You save up your LP's and the Sisters of EVE just give the BPC to you. Add minerals, bingo. Or they now drop from drone complexes, if you bother doing them. So, yes, you can make money from T3 producton. But which stage of T3 production? Does anyone do all stages of T3 production, and if so, is the effort and value-add worth it? Do you do all stages, from blapping red crosses and huffing farts, to reacting metallofullerenes, blowing IQ on the minigame in data sites to get the relic components to feed into research to make the blueprints, to cook the subsystems? I doubt it. Admittedly i dont gather every single material neccesary for the t3 production myself or via my corp members, i tend to buy the various relic off the market, and i buy all the low end gasses needed for my reaction POS...simply because they are sold so cheap compared to the effort. However every other material is either gathered by myself or my corp, its not like it takes much to build each t3 hull/subsystem. We on average get enough materials to build 4 Proteus and subsystem with every daytrip we take, thats 1.2 bil a day with plenty of extra ribbons and blue loot to push us further on the iskies front (usually have 4 guys take the plunge each time, so 300 mil each on Proteus alone). Yes the faction bpcs dropped in sites can outpace that if your lucky and get many drops in a row, and good on you if you manage that. But i doubt it.
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 168	Posted - 2014.10.18 07:24:00 - [123] - Quote "Deos not take much to build a T3", and you even casually mention a reaction POS, gas hauling but omit all references to reverse engineering and skills. Seriously dude, it's in no way even remotely comparable to building a faction ship from a BPC.
Brazilian Dream Caldari Provisions Caldari State 0	Posted - 2014.10.18 09:24:00 - [124] - Quote So profitable that everybody wants to do it :S
Jez Amatin Enso Corp 30	Posted - 2014.10.18 10:54:00 - [125] - Quote Chaotix Morwen wrote: However every other material is either gathered by myself or my corp, its not like it takes much to build each t3 hull/subsystem. We on average get enough materials to build 4 Proteus and subsystem with every daytrip we take, thats 1.2 bil a day with plenty of extra ribbons and blue loot to push us further on the iskies front (usually have 4 guys take the plunge each time, so 300 mil each on Proteus alone). Yes the faction bpcs dropped in sites can outpace that if your lucky and get many drops in a row, and good on you if you manage that. But i doubt it. so you day trip into system for 1.2 bil a day split between 4 characters? if so then wouldn't it be 300mil per day per character, presumably this is a bit longer as making t3 stuff will take a few days to prep etc... which on paper doesn't look too bad i guess, but its not exactly amazing. of course within that same time frame in hisec incursions u would have made that isk in 3hrs with virtually no risk, and you can make that in null for marginally more risk and little to no time investment in either k-space scenario. its not about instant gratification, its about making a game environment that is more fairly balanced considering the time, and isk investment you have to make to live in / enter wspace (unless u like to lose as many t3s as u build...). i know id rather be out shooting someone, than figuring out how much gas i have and whether or not i need to find a k-space exit to do x or y logi...
Imuji Swamphole Holdings Swamphole 5	Posted - 2014.10.18 11:45:00 - [126] - Quote Irya Boone wrote: because Wh suppose to be a place to live in , but just pass through , settle your campement , farm , make money , an go another place. But some players thought : hell no let's stay in this WHsystem. This is why so few live in WH ... and also because living in WH means risk of loosing EVRYTHING if your main POS get blapped Which is why you don't have one single POS, and you manage your roles and assets well. What's the point of bringing 20b worth of stuff into a WH if you use only 5b of it.
Chaotix Morwen Ugly Duckling Inc 16	Posted - 2014.10.18 12:54:00 - [127] - Quote Jez Amatin wrote: Chaotix Morwen wrote: However every other material is either gathered by myself or my corp, its not like it takes much to build each t3 hull/subsystem. We on average get enough materials to build 4 Proteus and subsystem with every daytrip we take, thats 1.2 bil a day with plenty of extra ribbons and blue loot to push us further on the iskies front (usually have 4 guys take the plunge each time, so 300 mil each on Proteus alone). Yes the faction bpcs dropped in sites can outpace that if your lucky and get many drops in a row, and good on you if you manage that. But i doubt it. so you day trip into system for 1.2 bil a day split between 4 characters? if so then wouldn't it be 300mil per day per character, presumably this is a bit longer as making t3 stuff will take a few days to prep etc... which on paper doesn't look too bad i guess, but its not exactly amazing. of course within that same time frame in hisec incursions u would have made that isk in 3hrs with virtually no risk, and you can make that in null for marginally more risk and little to no time investment in either k-space scenario. its not about instant gratification, its about making a game environment that is more fairly balanced considering the time, and isk investment you have to make to live in / enter wspace (unless u like to lose as many t3s as u build...). i know id rather be out shooting someone, than figuring out how much gas i have and whether or not i need to find a k-space exit to do x or y logi... I did state in my above post that each player makes 300 mil from the Proteus construction. not to mention the extra 100 mil or so per day in excess loot. Keep in mind my corp is a crappy indie corp barely capable of flying bc's reliably...imagine what a real corp can do, at least 3 times as much. I build my proteus close enough to within a day, so meh on the prep time. Hisec incursions are out of wack, i wont debate that, but in terms of what my lot do it seems fair, were risking about 200 mil worth of ships to make 1.2 bil+ in 8 hours, incursion runners have to move their crap, deal with drama, get into a fleet and trust some strangers to protect their blingy pirate ships, to make the same isk, it seems wh spelunking is easier. The advantage of whs is you can make your pvp isk easily, without kissing some nullsec alliances, or incursion fcs ass, that to me is worth the extra "effort" Heres an idea, if you lot cant deal with the time/effort associated with wormholes, maybe you shouldnt come to them, it means more room for people like me, who stick with it instead of whinging about not enough isk/hour.
Shilalasar Dead Sky Inc. 131	Posted - 2014.10.18 14:23:39 - [128] - Quote Chaotix Morwen wrote: I did state in my above post that each player makes 300 mil from the Proteus construction. not to mention the extra 100 mil or so per day in excess loot. Keep in mind my corp is a crappy indie corp barely capable of flying bc's reliably...imagine what a real corp can do, at least 3 times as much. I build my proteus close enough to within a day, so meh on the prep time. Hisec incursions are out of wack, i wont debate that, but in terms of what my lot do it seems fair, were risking about 200 mil worth of ships to make 1.2 bil+ in 8 hours, incursion runners have to move their crap, deal with drama, get into a fleet and trust some strangers to protect their blingy pirate ships, to make the same isk, it seems wh spelunking is easier. The advantage of whs is you can make your pvp isk easily, without kissing some nullsec alliances, or incursion fcs ass, that to me is worth the extra "effort" Heres an idea, if you lot cant deal with the time/effort associated with wormholes, maybe you shouldnt come to them, it means more room for people like me, who stick with it instead of whinging about not enough isk/hour. Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad. Lets start with the incursionstuff: Dealing with drama, getting into fleets and trusting strangers is exactly the same in a wormholecorp, it is also your personal decicion with whom you run. The only real reasons incurions are "communities" and not corps/alliances are wardecs and corptheft. So even not taking different spaces into account there is less risk. Try living with a few small corps in a wormhole, just coping every bookmark 5 times and putting it into a container is sooo much fun to do on a daily basis. Also noone is forcing incusionrunners to run officerfit piratebattleships, you can do it in T2 fit BS. Ofc you will loose efficiency but that is exactly the same everywhere else. Many wormhole- or lowsecalliances have run incursionsites on their own, so no need to kiss anything you would not kiss the whole time anyway. Same goes for nullsecratting, just take a wormhole there and you can do whatever you like, most likely they will dock up for hours anyways. Then there are your numbers, they are so all over the place it isn-¦t even funny. Are you doing the good old "if I mine it myself it is free" maths or are you just putting the numbers out in a bad way? Otherwise If you make 1.2B in 8 hours divided through 4 people you-¦d be making more money just buying everything off the market and spend the rest of the time salvaging wrecks on the perimeter gate. Since we are on the topic of gas, isn-¦t it funny how nullsec can-¦t produce t2 because "we have too little of those moonmins in this region" while lowerclass whs often for weeks get no gassites and never have enough highendgas to produce t3s from the ribbons you farmed yourself. Not to mention getting the right hullblueprints (though inventionchanges might do something there). And while I am at it and people are talking about the golden days of j-space, CCP has buffed every other space since then, so it is not just the nerfs hitting wormholes but also the buffs to anywhere else. No-rat-explorationsites everywhere, special beltrats and reworked FW for lowsec, carrierrattingbuffs and ESS for nullsec (and less war but that is not on CCP), incusions for highsec though they got shafted a bit too. If you have doubts if PvE buffs benefit the PvPers just look at lowsec 3 years ago and now.
Jez Amatin Enso Corp 30	Posted - 2014.10.18 17:26:59 - [129] - Quote Chaotix Morwen wrote: Heres an idea, if you lot cant deal with the time/effort associated with wormholes, maybe you shouldnt come to them, it means more room for people like me, who stick with it instead of whinging about not enough isk/hour. i look forward to making ur next daytrip as easy as possible... vov
Chaotix Morwen Ugly Duckling Inc 16	Posted - 2014.10.18 19:17:22 - [130] - Quote Shilalasar wrote: Chaotix Morwen wrote: I did state in my above post that each player makes 300 mil from the Proteus construction. not to mention the extra 100 mil or so per day in excess loot. Keep in mind my corp is a crappy indie corp barely capable of flying bc's reliably...imagine what a real corp can do, at least 3 times as much. I build my proteus close enough to within a day, so meh on the prep time. Hisec incursions are out of wack, i wont debate that, but in terms of what my lot do it seems fair, were risking about 200 mil worth of ships to make 1.2 bil+ in 8 hours, incursion runners have to move their crap, deal with drama, get into a fleet and trust some strangers to protect their blingy pirate ships, to make the same isk, it seems wh spelunking is easier. The advantage of whs is you can make your pvp isk easily, without kissing some nullsec alliances, or incursion fcs ass, that to me is worth the extra "effort" Heres an idea, if you lot cant deal with the time/effort associated with wormholes, maybe you shouldnt come to them, it means more room for people like me, who stick with it instead of whinging about not enough isk/hour. Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad. Lets start with the incursionstuff: Dealing with drama, getting into fleets and trusting strangers is exactly the same in a wormholecorp, it is also your personal decicion with whom you run. The only real reasons incurions are "communities" and not corps/alliances are wardecs and corptheft. So even not taking different spaces into account there is less risk. Try living with a few small corps in a wormhole, just coping every bookmark 5 times and putting it into a container is sooo much fun to do on a daily basis. Also noone is forcing incusionrunners to run officerfit piratebattleships, you can do it in T2 fit BS. Ofc you will loose efficiency but that is exactly the same everywhere else. Many wormhole- or lowsecalliances have run incursionsites on their own, so no need to kiss anything you would not kiss the whole time anyway. Same goes for nullsecratting, just take a wormhole there and you can do whatever you like, most likely they will dock up for hours anyways. Then there are your numbers, they are so all over the place it isn-¦t even funny. Are you doing the good old "if I mine it myself it is free" maths or are you just putting the numbers out in a bad way? Otherwise If you make 1.2B in 8 hours divided through 4 people you-¦d be making more money just buying everything off the market and spend the rest of the time salvaging wrecks on the perimeter gate. Since we are on the topic of gas, isn-¦t it funny how nullsec can-¦t produce t2 because "we have too little of those moonmins in this region" while lowerclass whs often for weeks get no gassites and never have enough highendgas to produce t3s from the ribbons you farmed yourself. Not to mention getting the right hullblueprints (though inventionchanges might do something there). And while I am at it and people are talking about the golden days of j-space, CCP has buffed every other space since then, so it is not just the nerfs hitting wormholes but also the buffs to anywhere else. No-rat-explorationsites everywhere, special beltrats and reworked FW for lowsec, carrierrattingbuffs and ESS for nullsec (and less war but that is not on CCP), incusions for highsec though they got shafted a bit too. If you have doubts if PvE buffs benefit the PvPers just look at lowsec 3 years ago and now. I have lived with a pair of small corps in a wh...they may or may not have been chased out after a bit of a debacle :P It isnt easy, but why should whs be easy? I spoke of incursions in the light of my experience with them, for what my guys do its less work in whs, i never stated that its true for the entire wh community. I do not believe what i mine is free, tbh those people **** me off, i do make more just buying materials off of the market. The reason i get my guys to get the stuff t build the t3s is to give them a source of income, many are 2 month old newbs so im getting them to do one of the easiest things in Eve, wh daytrip. The reason i posted the isk value for the proteus we sell is because people were complaining whs had no good drops, i was showing them they are wrong. If wh's havent been buffed, maybe that shows they dont need buffing? They offer a crapton of isk at very low risk and any newb can find them anywhere. (at least black holes are kinda good now, theres a buff)
Chaotix Morwen Ugly Duckling Inc 16	Posted - 2014.10.18 19:23:53 - [131] - Quote Jez Amatin wrote: Chaotix Morwen wrote: Heres an idea, if you lot cant deal with the time/effort associated with wormholes, maybe you shouldnt come to them, it means more room for people like me, who stick with it instead of whinging about not enough isk/hour. i look forward to making ur next daytrip as easy as possible... vov You are welcome to come and get us, on the off chance you find us, it shall be a glorious battle, followed promptly by my guys dieing without getting a shot off due to your falcon, and us getting instapopped by your cloaky proteus gang. But still glory!
Jez Amatin Enso Corp 30	Posted - 2014.10.18 19:40:46 - [132] - Quote Chaotix Morwen wrote: The reason i posted the isk value for the proteus we sell is because people were complaining whs had no good drops, i was showing them they are wrong. If wh's havent been buffed, maybe that shows they dont need buffing? They offer a crapton of isk at very low risk and any newb can find them anywhere. (at least black holes are kinda good now, theres a buff) ok maybe it works for u as a daytripper (which is fine by me) but that is a very narrow viewpoint on the overall issue of wspace population as per the OP. and im sure i dont need to explain that the blackhole buff only applies to a very small percentage of wspace - even calling that a buff is mildly entertaining, its was more a case of making them more habitable (most of them are still empty today).
Chaotix Morwen Ugly Duckling Inc 16	Posted - 2014.10.18 19:45:31 - [133] - Quote Jez Amatin wrote: Chaotix Morwen wrote: The reason i posted the isk value for the proteus we sell is because people were complaining whs had no good drops, i was showing them they are wrong. If wh's havent been buffed, maybe that shows they dont need buffing? They offer a crapton of isk at very low risk and any newb can find them anywhere. (at least black holes are kinda good now, theres a buff) ok maybe it works for u as a daytripper (which is fine by me) but that is a very narrow viewpoint on the overall issue of wspace population as per the OP. and im sure i dont need to explain that the blackhole buff only applies to a very small percentage of wspace - even calling that a buff is mildly entertaining, its was more a case of making them more habitable (most of them are still empty today). The fact that myself and others like me find it far more efficent and effective to daytrip rather than live in a wh probably helps answer the OP's question.
unimatrix0030 Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed. 152	Posted - 2014.10.19 07:30:49 - [134] - Quote T3 production is a high sec activity. Most are produced there CCP mentioned that in the posts to the industry changes. Most people don't manifacture anyway. So you can't realy count that as a wormhole activity.
Rek Seven Probe Patrol 1941	Posted - 2014.10.19 08:48:46 - [135] - Quote The new T3 destroyers should bring in some new players and they will be great for traversing those crappy small ship wormholes. We are still going to need new conflict drivers and content if there is ever going to be a sustained increase of activity in space though, IMO. +1
Chaotix Morwen Ugly Duckling Inc 16	Posted - 2014.10.19 10:52:03 - [136] - Quote unimatrix0030 wrote: T3 production is a high sec activity. Most are produced there CCP mentioned that in the posts to the industry changes. Most people don't manifacture anyway. So you can't realy count that as a wormhole activity. Right, the equipment that is built entirely out of components from whs cant be counted as a wormhole activity. And ofc you react the gasses in hisec too... The assembly of the t3 parts is the smallest portion of the job, If your going to rule out t3 stuff out as a wh activity then you might as well cut out ninja gas mining as well, because a large amount of it is done in lowsec.
Chaotix Morwen Ugly Duckling Inc 16	Posted - 2014.10.19 10:55:11 - [137] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: The new T3 destroyers should bring in some new players and they will be great for traversing those crappy small ship wormholes. We are still going to need new conflict drivers and content if there is ever going to be a sustained increase of activity in space though, IMO. I agree, were going to see a roughly 2 month boost to salvage prices before they go back to their normal iskies level. Itll end up drawing no more players than what are in whs currently.
Jestor's Testor Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 12	Posted - 2014.10.19 18:59:00 - [138] - Quote The reason I don't bother, is the fact that there I no personnel hanger. I may trust the pos owner to not handle my goods, but I'll never have my asserts open to every man my corp leadership lets through the door... Or anyone that has a password... I want a personal hanger that can hold my battleships, I'm not letting my items go to waste in space for all too see... I suggest making different level/sizes of pos, each with its own features like massive hangers than can distribute access... The cost would be more fuel to run, or harder to kill, ect. Perhaps even different versions such as miner pos, with a mineral compressor, or straight military pos, with lockdown feature and ect. Weaker poss,s in general but they can be built next to one another for support.
Jestor's Testor Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 12	Posted - 2014.10.19 18:59:59 - [139] - Quote The reason I don't bother, is the fact that there is no personnel hanger. I may trust the pos owner to not handle my goods, but I'll never have my assets open to every man my corp leadership lets through the door... Or anyone that has a password... I want a personal hanger that can hold my battleships, I'm not letting my items go to waste in space for all too see... I suggest making different level/sizes of pos, each with its own features like massive hangers than can distribute access... The cost would be more fuel to run, or easier to kill, ect. Perhaps even different versions such as miner pos, with a mineral compressor, or straight military pos, with lockdown feature and ect. Weaker poss,s in general but they can be built next to one another for support.
Nolak Ataru Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC 232	Posted - 2014.10.19 19:21:54 - [140] - Quote CCP: "I wonder what WH people want added to WH space...." WH: "Personal Hangars, revert ore sites to scan-down, give Rorqs a new role..." CCP: "Nah, let's make T3 destroyers."
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 179	Posted - 2014.10.19 22:02:43 - [141] - Quote There is actually a thing called Personal Hangar Array Then there's Corporate Hangar Array with divisions with access control Then there are POS forcefields with passwords It's perfectly viable to have 6 guys per tower with adequate privacy and security, and 6 guys have no problems splitting the costs of living. I'm not saying that POSes are perfect or even good, and the corp and tower management interfaces are absolutely terrible, but this "bloobloo no security" is total exaggeration and shouldn't really discourage anyone from setting shop in w-space.
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 179	Posted - 2014.10.19 22:06:16 - [142] - Quote Chaotix Morwen wrote: Rek Seven wrote: The new T3 destroyers should bring in some new players and they will be great for traversing those crappy small ship wormholes. We are still going to need new conflict drivers and content if there is ever going to be a sustained increase of activity in space though, IMO. I agree, were going to see a roughly 2 month boost to salvage prices before they go back to their normal iskies level. Itll end up drawing no more players than what are in whs currently. 2 months, based on what? A ship class built from sleeper poop that is cheaper than strategic cruiser, and less SP-intensive will boost wh income for years. (if it's a usable ship)
Chaotix Morwen Ugly Duckling Inc 16	Posted - 2014.10.20 12:58:20 - [143] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Chaotix Morwen wrote: Rek Seven wrote: The new T3 destroyers should bring in some new players and they will be great for traversing those crappy small ship wormholes. We are still going to need new conflict drivers and content if there is ever going to be a sustained increase of activity in space though, IMO. I agree, were going to see a roughly 2 month boost to salvage prices before they go back to their normal iskies level. Itll end up drawing no more players than what are in whs currently. 2 months, based on what? A ship class built from sleeper poop that is cheaper than strategic cruiser, and less SP-intensive will boost wh income for years. (if it's a usable ship) 2 months based on how quickly people give up on gimicky toys. I highly doubt these ships will be particularly effective, and will be used for the sake of being used. T3 or not its still a destroyer hull, and will be easily destroyed by a competent cruiser, unless ofc ccp make these things into op montrosities that beat the regular t3s stats...in which case i will admit im wrong.
Stalence Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 31	Posted - 2014.10.20 17:00:47 - [144] - Quote I'm primarily a Faction Warfare player but dabble in wormholes (both for occasional PVP on my main, as well as for PVE and PI on some alts) so perhaps I can offer some insight from the outside. Wormholes have some hardcore mechanics that essentially raise the bar for all who are interested in entering them to only hardcore players. The rats are deadlier than any other part of space. The players are sneakier and arguably deadlier than any other area of space and finally, the logistics of living in a wormhole are arguably more challenging most other areas of space (ship repair, affording to keep a POS fueled, while covering ship losses, etc). This hardcore environment all but ensure only hardcore players stick around in wormholes for any considerable amount of time. I believe, getting more players involved in wormhole space starts with getting more individual pilots into wormholes and not just asking how to get new corps to enter wormholes in droves. High skill point and ship cost requirements dissuade a lot or players interested in wormholes from joining established corporations and being able to actively participate in established corporations. Basically, to improve the ecosystem of wormholes, I think you may need to take a lesson from Faction WarfareGÇª Whether youGÇÖre a veteran player with the ability to fly HACs, Triage, T3s, and Black Ops battleships or a couple week-old character that can barely fit a meta T1 frigate we can find a place where you will have a role an can make valuable contributions to our corp/alliance and fleets. Start recruiting the noobs of today, theyGÇÖll be your veteran pilots, FCs, and corp founders of tomorrow. If the barrier of entry to wormhole corps requires the skill points and self-sufficiency to fly and repeatedly lose well-fit T2 cruisers, battlecruisers and T3s in PVP repeatedly you can expect to be missing out on a good chunk of the player base. Additionally, I think CCP should at least look at adding the following to the game or improve it to get more people willing to stake a claim in wormhole space. 1)Lower the barrier of entry for the PVE content in lower-class wormholes. I still think the skill point requirement is too high to run some of the sites and itGÇÖs a detterant to getting new players immediately into wormholes. 2)Allow for medical clones in wormholes. New players entering wormholes are likely not going to be experienced with the loving embrace of a dictorGÇÖs bubbles. When that happens and you lose your ship, upgrading your clone is basically a forgone conclusion. Having the ability to wake up in your POSGÇÖs Clone Vat Module would be a lot more forgiving to players new to wormholes than having to potentially fly back across the galaxy over and over again to your holeGÇÖs entrance as you repeatedly learn that lesson. (Again this may be too hardcore for players new to wormholes, itGÇÖs akin to starting a level all over again without the luxury of save points. It can and will get frustrating learning the ropes of constant D-Scan and burning out of bubbles). 3)Fix corp management roles. The risk of corp theft related to complicated roles management is something that keeps a lot of casual corporations from investing the time and ISK to plant a POS and stock it with modules and ships. Similarly, allowing the ability to have corp or alliance ship contracts in a wormhole may be nice too as an aside from a publicly accessible corp hangar. 4)Remove the mystery of System effects. TheyGÇÖve been published in dev blogs by why not have them in the client itself where it is easily accessible to pilots who are new to wormholes? Veterans will know effects off the top of their head but why canGÇÖt a player new to the environment right-click the sun or show info on the system and see what these wormhole effects are?
Greg Inglis Storm Planet 0	Posted - 2014.10.22 12:58:56 - [145] - Quote super high risk. unbelievably low reward.
350125GO Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept 119	Posted - 2014.10.22 14:35:02 - [146] - Quote Greg Inglis wrote: high risk. unbelievably fun. Fixed it for you. If you want rewards, play a slot machine. I play for fun and that's what I have in WH's. You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
Brazilian Dream Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.10.22 14:48:33 - [147] - Quote lol
Bronya Boga Isogen 5 513	Posted - 2014.10.22 15:10:48 - [148] - Quote Greg Inglis wrote: super high risk. unbelievably low reward. Can you define super high risk? Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
350125GO Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept 119	Posted - 2014.10.22 15:33:22 - [149] - Quote Bronya Boga wrote: Greg Inglis wrote: super high risk. unbelievably low reward. Can you define super high risk? I think it means he's likely to lose his Drake. You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 180	Posted - 2014.10.22 15:41:46 - [150] - Quote Chaotix Morwen wrote: King Fu Hostile wrote: Chaotix Morwen wrote: Rek Seven wrote: The new T3 destroyers should bring in some new players and they will be great for traversing those crappy small ship wormholes. We are still going to need new conflict drivers and content if there is ever going to be a sustained increase of activity in space though, IMO. I agree, were going to see a roughly 2 month boost to salvage prices before they go back to their normal iskies level. Itll end up drawing no more players than what are in whs currently. 2 months, based on what? A ship class built from sleeper poop that is cheaper than strategic cruiser, and less SP-intensive will boost wh income for years. (if it's a usable ship) 2 months based on how quickly people give up on gimicky toys. I highly doubt these ships will be particularly effective, and will be used for the sake of being used. T3 or not its still a destroyer hull, and will be easily destroyed by a competent cruiser, unless ofc ccp make these things into op montrosities that beat the regular t3s stats...in which case i will admit im wrong. Well, so far CCP has failed to introduce a single gimicky toy that gets abandoned after two months. Also, two destroyer hulls in zkill top 10.
Bronya Boga Isogen 5 513	Posted - 2014.10.22 15:43:06 - [151] - Quote 350125GO wrote: Bronya Boga wrote: Greg Inglis wrote: super high risk. unbelievably low reward. Can you define super high risk? I think it means he's likely to lose his Drake. You can lose your drake in wspace? Thats not what I signed up for. Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
Malcaz Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.10.22 19:44:57 - [152] - Quote I looked into joining a w-space corp for a while, but all the paranoia puts me off. Eve is a game that I play for fun, and that makes it not fun to me. Also, it is hard to even find a decent w-space corp that is openly recruiting, probably for that reason.
Bronya Boga Isogen 5 514	Posted - 2014.10.22 20:00:35 - [153] - Quote Malcaz wrote: I looked into joining a w-space corp for a while, but all the paranoia puts me off. Eve is a game that I play for fun, and that makes it not fun to me. Also, it is hard to even find a decent w-space corp that is openly recruiting, probably for that reason. There are tons of wspace corps that recruite quite easily. Tbh if by paranoia you mean full api checks and divisional access then your fears are those are things all good corps do for the security of its members Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
Malcaz Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.10.22 20:09:08 - [154] - Quote Bronya Boga wrote: Malcaz wrote: I looked into joining a w-space corp for a while, but all the paranoia puts me off. Eve is a game that I play for fun, and that makes it not fun to me. Also, it is hard to even find a decent w-space corp that is openly recruiting, probably for that reason. There are tons of wspace corps that recruite quite easily. Tbh if by paranoia you mean full api checks and divisional access then your fears are those are things all good corps do for the security of its members Not that, it's the general attitude of paranoia. It's not enjoyable. Not many good ones. And mostly for lower tier wormholes.
Bronya Boga Isogen 5 514	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:21:39 - [155] - Quote Malcaz wrote: Bronya Boga wrote: Malcaz wrote: I looked into joining a w-space corp for a while, but all the paranoia puts me off. Eve is a game that I play for fun, and that makes it not fun to me. Also, it is hard to even find a decent w-space corp that is openly recruiting, probably for that reason. There are tons of wspace corps that recruite quite easily. Tbh if by paranoia you mean full api checks and divisional access then your fears are those are things all good corps do for the security of its members Not that, it's the general attitude of paranoia. It's not enjoyable. Not many good ones. And mostly for lower tier wormholes. Im confused did you play with truly paranoid people? We always joke about it but full disclosure we aint all like that ahaha its just a spaceship game and wspace lets us truly experience it like we think this game should be Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery Prolapse. 1730	Posted - 2014.10.22 23:28:36 - [156] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Well, so far CCP has failed to introduce a single gimicky toy that gets abandoned after two months. Also, two destroyer hulls in zkill top 10. Nestor. Edit: Corax, Primae, Target Spectrum Breaker CODE. Q.E.D. J's before K's. Prolapse. Turning holes inside out with pew pew. http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
Ilaister Task Force Proteus Protean Concept 114	Posted - 2014.10.23 00:14:49 - [157] - Quote Malcaz wrote: Bronya Boga wrote: Malcaz wrote: I looked into joining a w-space corp for a while, but all the paranoia puts me off. Eve is a game that I play for fun, and that makes it not fun to me. Also, it is hard to even find a decent w-space corp that is openly recruiting, probably for that reason. There are tons of wspace corps that recruite quite easily. Tbh if by paranoia you mean full api checks and divisional access then your fears are those are things all good corps do for the security of its members Not that, it's the general attitude of paranoia. It's not enjoyable. Not many good ones. And mostly for lower tier wormholes. Security is the job of your leadership to deal with. One of the many reasons why it's ******* ace being a director in wspace. If security is becoming a regular discussion in any WH corp then something is very wrong. I know of a couple corps recruiting across all classes, high and low. Lazerhawks and some bros have opened a new chan specifically to draw people like you back in. Give somone in the thread here a poke if you are serious about coming into our gassy folds.
Proclus Diadochu Isogen 5 1860	Posted - 2014.10.23 00:26:09 - [158] - Quote Bronya Boga wrote: Malcaz wrote: Bronya Boga wrote: Malcaz wrote: I looked into joining a w-space corp for a while, but all the paranoia puts me off. Eve is a game that I play for fun, and that makes it not fun to me. Also, it is hard to even find a decent w-space corp that is openly recruiting, probably for that reason. There are tons of wspace corps that recruite quite easily. Tbh if by paranoia you mean full api checks and divisional access then your fears are those are things all good corps do for the security of its members Not that, it's the general attitude of paranoia. It's not enjoyable. Not many good ones. And mostly for lower tier wormholes. Im confused did you play with truly paranoid people? We always joke about it but full disclosure we aint all like that ahaha its just a spaceship game and wspace lets us truly experience it like we think this game should be Bronya did just recruit about a handful of Obstergo guys... 0effs to give. I think Jilozz told me he even told them he was a spai when joining :P Really, the paranoia thing does exist in wormholes, but even with current mechanics, and good recruiting, it is relatively easy to avoid thefts and shenanigans. Just takes some learning/effort. I would advise ANY would-be future corp CEO's in wormholes to find some successful CEO's/directors and pick their brains for the do's and don'ts of wormhole leadership, corp, POS, and role management, and learn about the hits and misses of good and terrible recruiting. Lot's of experience currently available to players, and many of them are willing to share and talk to you. "Join W-Space" channel ingame. Irrelevant \| Twitter: @autoritare E-mail: [email protected] My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/ The Diogenes Club \| Join W-Space \| Down The Pipe
Brazilian Dream Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.10.23 05:04:24 - [159] - Quote Belle epoche Arise again Gorgeous nebulae Ominous desses Friends and foes alike Dwell in dark deep Infinite killmails await Corps merge and crumble Kings and pawns surrender to Bob's Grace!
Iyokus Patrouette No Vacancies 182	Posted - 2014.10.23 05:08:31 - [160] - Quote Proc buying us all fancy coats again. Seems like the best way to get people into wormholes. ---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
Luwc Brodozers Inc. 250	Posted - 2014.10.23 08:59:08 - [161] - Quote To me personaly getting told this "If you are the typical Eve player that plays about 2-3 hours a day then perhaps wormholes are not for you." has been a pretty big turn off so far. So I had to find a group/place that does not require a "no job 23/7 EVE" Lifestyle :p http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Winthorp 2816	Posted - 2014.10.23 09:46:19 - [162] - Quote Iyokus Patrouette wrote: Proc buying us all fancy coats again. Seems like the best way to get people into wormholes. I got so cold wearing a singlet and waiting for Mr Diadochu to send me a long promised new coat that my arms got frostbite and i had to cut them off only to be replaced with robot arms.
calaretu Honestly We didnt know Unsettled. 221	Posted - 2014.10.23 11:21:39 - [163] - Quote Proclus Diadochu wrote: Quote: quotes ... I would advise ANY would-be future corp CEO's in wormholes to find some successful CEO's/directors and pick their brains for the do's and don'ts of wormhole leadership, corp, POS, and role management, and learn about the hits and misses of good and terrible recruiting. Lot's of experience currently available to players, and many of them are willing to share and talk to you. "Join W-Space" channel ingame. This. Because theres no reason not to ~Bringer of happiness http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 183	Posted - 2014.10.23 11:34:26 - [164] - Quote Luwc wrote: To me personaly getting told this "If you are the typical Eve player that plays about 2-3 hours a day then perhaps wormholes are not for you." has been a pretty big turn off so far. So I had to find a group/place that does not require a "no job 23/7 EVE" Lifestyle :p No idea who tells stuff like that, unsurprisingly wormholers are normal people with RL just like everyone else.
Arronicus Bitter Lemons Brothers of Tangra 1181	Posted - 2014.10.23 12:03:25 - [165] - Quote Terrorfrodo wrote: Obil Que wrote: I personally would love to see unique PvE content like k-space -> w-space escalations Great idea. Occasionally, mission-runners in low-sec or even hisec would be offered special missions for which a wormhole in a nearby system is spawned that they have to scan down. In the wspace system they'll find a mission site that is of similar difficulty as their usual missions (=easy) but pays as much as a w-space site would, or more. Level 1 agents could offer missions into c1, level 2 to c2 etc. No such missions in c5/6. To not generate too many additional wormholes, these special holes would only appear if a pilot actually accepts the mission; I expect most of these missions would be turned down like the new burner missions. You'd have to move these wormholes off the scanning system, just like escalations themselves cant be probed out. The pilot going into w-space would still face teh risk of doing content in the system, and could still bring friends in and out through the wormhole with him, which I assume would collapse on completion of the mission, but having it spawn for everyone to probe out (and see immediately on their overlay) would create a ridiculous level of risk not even seen in level 5 lowsec missions (it doesnt announce to the entire syste that content has appeared)
Senn Denroth Lazerhawks 226	Posted - 2014.10.23 12:19:25 - [166] - Quote Malcaz wrote: Bronya Boga wrote: Malcaz wrote: I looked into joining a w-space corp for a while, but all the paranoia puts me off. Eve is a game that I play for fun, and that makes it not fun to me. Also, it is hard to even find a decent w-space corp that is openly recruiting, probably for that reason. There are tons of wspace corps that recruite quite easily. Tbh if by paranoia you mean full api checks and divisional access then your fears are those are things all good corps do for the security of its members Not that, it's the general attitude of paranoia. It's not enjoyable. Not many good ones. And mostly for lower tier wormholes. Is that why you're still in NPC corp? Good luck with your 'fun' in kspace :P
Necharo Rackham The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 44	Posted - 2014.10.23 12:47:59 - [167] - Quote Luwc wrote: To me personaly getting told this "If you are the typical Eve player that plays about 2-3 hours a day then perhaps wormholes are not for you." It kind of depends. The majority of the people I know in w-space are have a fairly regular RL, though there are some students who are online a lot. Usually when limited player-time is an issue it's other way around; recruit who plays 2-3 hours a day complaining that they can't do exactly what they want that day, be it highsec supplies/nullsec roaming etc. As long as you are willing to roll with what the chain brings you, 2-3hours are fine.
350125GO Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept 121	Posted - 2014.10.23 12:51:20 - [168] - Quote Senn Denroth wrote: Malcaz wrote: Bronya Boga wrote: Malcaz wrote: I looked into joining a w-space corp for a while, but all the paranoia puts me off. Eve is a game that I play for fun, and that makes it not fun to me. Also, it is hard to even find a decent w-space corp that is openly recruiting, probably for that reason. There are tons of wspace corps that recruite quite easily. Tbh if by paranoia you mean full api checks and divisional access then your fears are those are things all good corps do for the security of its members Not that, it's the general attitude of paranoia. It's not enjoyable. Not many good ones. And mostly for lower tier wormholes. Is that why you're still in NPC corp? Good luck with your 'fun' in kspace :P There's no place more paranoid than sov holding null. It's why I got out. I was so sick of being concerned of who was a spy, who wasn't, and all the BS about the long scam in the "meta" of the game. Aside from trying to weed out players who will empty out a corp hangar, I have yet to see a WH corp that's paranoid about anything. WH's are too random to bother to place spies anywhere. Alt's are for scouting, not spying. You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
Kern Hotha 66	Posted - 2014.10.25 08:29:32 - [169] - Quote The thing keeping me out of w-space isn't the lack of pilots there; in fact, it's the opposite. When wormholes first appeared in the game I envisioned creating with friends a small base in a vastly remote system that might flourish hidden from the rest of the galaxy. Obviously that's not at all what w-space offers. The ease of travel, the large fleets, the goddamn capitals, the very concept of "day tripping" - they all create an environment that is simply disappointing. We distinguish the excellent man from the common man by saying that the former is the one who makes great demands upon himself, and the latter who makes no demands on himself. Jose Ortega y Gasset (1883 - 1955)
Kaderu Narada Future Methods 1	Posted - 2014.10.25 21:51:03 - [170] - Quote It's because the isk:risk ratio is totally out of whack. A lot of players (not me, I'm not a Poor) need to make their isk in W-space, and unless you're running capital escalations it's just not very good considering the hassle of living out of a POS, the necessity of daily scanning, and the constant risk of getting dropped on by a cloaky T3 gang.
Kirasten No Vacancies 114	Posted - 2014.10.26 01:12:40 - [171] - Quote Necharo Rackham wrote: Luwc wrote: To me personaly getting told this "If you are the typical Eve player that plays about 2-3 hours a day then perhaps wormholes are not for you." It kind of depends. The majority of the people I know in w-space are have a fairly regular RL, though there are some students who are online a lot. Usually when limited player-time is an issue it's other way around; recruit who plays 2-3 hours a day complaining that they can't do exactly what they want that day, be it highsec supplies/nullsec roaming etc. As long as you are willing to roll with what the chain brings you, 2-3hours are fine. ^This. Bob directs us as he wills. It's when you try to thwart his will that you get frustrated.
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery Prolapse. 1779	Posted - 2014.10.28 01:43:12 - [172] - Quote Kern Hotha wrote: The thing keeping me out of w-space isn't the lack of pilots there; in fact, it's the opposite. When wormholes first appeared in the game I envisioned creating with friends a small base in a vastly remote system that might flourish hidden from the rest of the galaxy. Obviously that's not at all what w-space offers. The ease of travel, the large fleets, the goddamn capitals, the very concept of "day tripping" - they all create an environment that is simply disappointing. SD yourself out and go hump Sanctums. Then you can be disappointed with nullsec. J's before K's. Prolapse. Turning holes inside out with pew pew. http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au

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