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Bloggers #25, EVE Economics

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)

Wrangler	Posted - 2006.08.16 16:54:00 - [1] As we all know, economics is a complicated thing, at least I think so. But how does it all work in EVE? Maybe that question won't be fully answered here, but at least we'll understand things and especially inflation in EVE a bit better. Head over to the blog page and read it yourself! "Endless money forms the sinews of war." ~ Cicero Wrangler Assistant Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads Knowledge Base - Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions

Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.16 16:56:00 - [2] Edited by: Eilie on 16/08/2006 17:03:55 nice one yay, I was first lol OK, now that I actually read it: I have always thought that the insurance system was the largest source of ISK being added to the game. It really needs to be looked at as it causes lots of inflation. Also, Quote: To keep this relatively short, the number of people able to fly HACs has increased significantly, and yet the number that can be supplied by manufacturers has not - this would suggest that demand has increased, but supply has not. I wonder whos fault that is... cough CCP cough Stupid Lottery coughcough*
Hehulk 5punkorp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.16 16:59:00 - [3] Woohoo! ---------- Please choose one signature image, as per the forum rules. - Teblin
Ather Ialeas Viziam	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:00:00 - [4] This one's a really interesting blog for a change...I want to see how you fit 4 turrets to Punisher tho' since it has only three turret slots ------- I'm not an alt.

Redundancy	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Ather Ialeas This one's a really interesting blog for a change...I want to see how you fit 4 turrets to Punisher tho' since it has only three turret slots Phooey. Well, I stopped flying tech 1 frigates a while ago, and I must have been thinking about the Retribution. It doesn't really matter if it's a practical fitting though, it's just an example.

Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:11:00 - [6] Edited by: Andargor theWise on 16/08/2006 17:12:07 Redundancy, thanks for the insight on basic macroeconomics and how they relate to the game. Could you comment on the other areas where there is unexpected inflation such as minerals I say "unexpected" because people have been assuming that macro mining and character farming would cause the mineral markets to crash, which is clearly not the case. What could be the cause of this? Increased production as characters get more cash? -
Magunus The Forsakened Few	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:11:00 - [7] Any chance of comparing total ISK Faucets to total ISK Sinks by day? I would be interested to see if inflation of specific goods is due to more isk coming into the game or a possibly a transfer from several lower priced goods to a single higer priced good. (Are more people buying 1 HAC, for example, rather than spending money on 2 or 3 battleships?) --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
EvilNate Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:16:00 - [8] Interesting but... scratcheshead -------- www.bydi.org
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:19:00 - [9] Woot! More of this sort of thing. I realise that it probably takes a fair amount of work to extract that data from the DB, but I love this information. Oh, and that graph of HAC prices/HAC pilot numbers is really going to fan the flames of the HAC BPO/T2 lottery debate.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:24:00 - [10] Originally by: Blog Since this is a very important point that people seem to miss very frequently when this is discussed: trading money between two people doesn't (usually) increase the amount of money in circulation. Although trading money between people doesn't affect the amount of money in circulation, it can still result in inflation as in this common scenario: Step 1) Person X sells tons of GTCs for ISK. Step 2) Person X uses his 'free' ISK to bid higher on T2 BPOs and other rare items. Step 3) Inflation! Resulting in the real players having to work harder to have a chance to win a T2 BPO auction! I bet 100 mil that this post is deleted which will prove CCP knows they really messed up the economy with GTC sales and unfair T2 lotto!

Doc Brown Gallente Tyrell Corp Curse Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Emily Spankratchet Woot! More of this sort of thing. I realise that it probably takes a fair amount of work to extract that data from the DB, but I love this information. Oh, and that graph of HAC prices/HAC pilot numbers is really going to fan the flames of the HAC BPO/T2 lottery debate. I don't know why you are shocked, it makes perfect sense: the prices of HAC's are going to rise in step with demand since there is a limited amout that can be made per day. Demand is vastly outstripping supply with almost all T2 items, hence the uber inflation on those. You don't see that on T1 items because the T1 market isn't based around monopoloies. _________________________________________________ There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations.
Altariel Teleri Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:29:00 - [12] Well this blob shows that 7 (its 7 right?) HAC BPO's obviously is NOT enough. I would urge CCP to introduce more HAC BPO's so they match the numbers of other new t2 BPO's out there. Minmatar Freedom!
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Doc Brown Demand is vastly outstripping supply with almost all T2 items, hence the uber inflation on those. You don't see that on T1 items because the T1 market isn't based around monopoloies. More like an oligarchy. -
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:31:00 - [14] Thank you for that info. Compared to other MMOGs, EVE has remarkably little problems with inflation, at least as I experience it. Although you scratch some aspects of EVE's macroeconomics,I still do not understand why this is the case. I really would like to get some information about the total ISK/character ratio over time. Compare this to the total average costs of an item (sum up the standard prize of all items in game devided through the number of the different item types) over time. I would say, that the wealth of the average character is increasing (more ISK in game), but simultaniously the average price of an item is increasing as well. Idealy, the between those two should remain the same, but I would not be surprised, when the average wallet today can buy a lesser amount of average-price-items then let's say two years ago. Juwi Kotch
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:35:00 - [15] Originally by: Eilie Originally by: Blog Since this is a very important point that people seem to miss very frequently when this is discussed: trading money between two people doesn't (usually) increase the amount of money in circulation. Although trading money between people doesn't affect the amount of money in circulation, it can still result in inflation as in this common scenario: Step 1) Person X sells tons of GTCs for ISK. Step 2) Person X uses his 'free' ISK to bid higher on T2 BPOs and other rare items. Step 3) Inflation! Resulting in the real players having to work harder to have a chance to win a T2 BPO auction! I bet 100 mil that this post is deleted which will prove CCP knows they really messed up the economy with GTC sales and unfair T2 lotto! Selling GTCs for ISK does not generate one ISK in game, thus does not contribute to inflation at all. It just redistributes ISK ownership. Juwi Kotch
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:36:00 - [16] The one thing I'd most like to see in a future one of these is some sort of scale of the eve economy. Even if it's not a true and complete GDP of Eve, I think it would help put a lot of debate into context. Though lines like this certainly help: Originally by: Dev blog ...3 billion ISK per day out of the economy in Eve, but this is actually a drop in the ocean in the overall economy of Eve. In terms of T2 items, it would be interesting if we could get an update of those vagabond graphs a month or so after invention hits, to see just how much impact the supply increase has. Would also be interesting to see things like proportion of HAC's produced through invention vs from BPOs. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Gierling Gallente Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:39:00 - [17] I think this is very enlightening becuase it illustrates that the Dmand curve increases fairly linearly due to the skill system, however the supply curve is artificially restrained.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:44:00 - [18] Originally by: Juwi Kotch Originally by: Eilie Originally by: Blog Since this is a very important point that people seem to miss very frequently when this is discussed: trading money between two people doesn't (usually) increase the amount of money in circulation. Although trading money between people doesn't affect the amount of money in circulation, it can still result in inflation as in this common scenario: Step 1) Person X sells tons of GTCs for ISK. Step 2) Person X uses his 'free' ISK to bid higher on T2 BPOs and other rare items. Step 3) Inflation! Resulting in the real players having to work harder to have a chance to win a T2 BPO auction! I bet 100 mil that this post is deleted which will prove CCP knows they really messed up the economy with GTC sales and unfair T2 lotto! Selling GTCs for ISK does not generate one ISK in game, thus does not contribute to inflation at all. It just redistributes ISK ownership. Juwi Kotch Umm yea, you just repeated what I said... It redistributes the ISK to someone who doesn't deserve it. This than lets him use that money to bid higher on rare items than he could have normally which leads to inflation of those items.
Malthooz	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:47:00 - [19] Thats a substantial amount of info to get over in one blog. I appluade you for that one. Definately an interesting read, of course the amount of HAC skills sold could also be broken down again as a general rule by the race of the character and then based against the race of HAC, so as to break it down further. Would be interesting to see more breakdowns like this in future for certain.
Ather Ialeas Viziam	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:53:00 - [20] Originally by: Altariel Teleri Well this blob shows that 7 (its 7 right?) HAC BPO's obviously is NOT enough. I would urge CCP to introduce more HAC BPO's so they match the numbers of other new t2 BPO's out there. ... I actually hadn't heard how many HAC BPO:s there were...only that BoB holds six of 'em...but 7 in total? ------- I'm not an alt.


Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:55:00 - [21] Very interesting blog Redundancy. Some interesting things there. Good to have such blogs which are kinda off-track. Also good to know what CCP is looking at within Eve as well Email Us \| Forum Rules \| Website

Karunel Nuevos Horizontes	Posted - 2006.08.16 17:58:00 - [22] 20 BPOs per T2 item IIRC.
Andros vonBek Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.08.16 18:02:00 - [23] Edited by: Andros vonBek on 16/08/2006 18:02:59 7 per HAC type, or 8, or whatever, not 7 overapp overapp? overall...
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2006.08.16 18:07:00 - [24] Originally by: Doc Brown I don't know why you are shocked, it makes perfect sense: the prices of HAC's are going to rise in step with demand since there is a limited amout that can be made per day. I'm not shocked by that - it's logical consequence of the introduction of the skills and the items they allow you to use. The was aimed more at what will happen to the threads complaining about the BPO lottery - now they can move on from general hand waving arguments to bandying figures about. I'm not sure I'll be able to take it.
Swifty McSwift	Posted - 2006.08.16 18:09:00 - [25] Yes would be nice to see some figures on overall player wealth, and comparitively that of majour coporations to see if the isk generation is coming from increased overall player wealth (which is taxed as a percentage of earnings in corps so corp wallets should reflect this) EvE has a unique economical model. You call items such as T2 Luxury goods. Luxury implies that they are not essential but we all know that many T2 Items are required to gain an edge on opponents and win. For example lets take two identical players one in a rifter, one in a T2 rifter (the wolf) with equal skill this is gonna be pretty clear cut so these items are not a luxury but a requirement to compete. Luxury items are slightly better in eve T2 is generally alot better my HD projector perfoms the same function to the same end as a 14" tv, being able to snipe from 200+km through T2 ammo or not is a big difference in capability. Also unlike real life economics there is no circle of repetition. In real life jo blogs as a young man buys goods type A, marries and buys goods type B whilst children restart at buying goods type A and so on and so forth. In eve were all racing to the "end game" even many of the newer accounts will be pampered alts that will never touch T1 items. Another problems is GTC sales. Instead of younger players being forced as you would be in RL to begin at the lower levels (rent flat-own flat-own house) in EVE you can use an outside factor to attain the buying power of the older players. These factors put increased stress on the high end markets as the natural balancing is gone. Hence I-Win goods have massive prices. Balancing the economy therefore would appear to be deeply intwined with balancing gameplay. Will be very interesting to hear your ideas.
Sorela Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.16 18:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Eilie Umm yea, you just repeated what I said... It redistributes the ISK to someone who doesn't deserve it. This than lets him use that money to bid higher on rare items than he could have normally which leads to inflation of those items. No that's not how it works. The fact that he is getting lots of money doesn't make an item he want inflate in cost. Even if he has more money he isn't going to spend more on purpose. If this T2 BPO he's bidding on can be gotten for 20 billion he will only bid 20 billion. Now if there is excess cash in the system caused by the things detailed in this blog then he might have to bid higher due to his competitors having more cash. The fact that he is getting a lot of cash from other people from what you consider to be an unfair method isn't going to lead to inflation though.
Swifty McSwift	Posted - 2006.08.16 18:19:00 - [27] Originally by: Sorela No that's not how it works. The fact that he is getting lots of money doesn't make an item he want inflate in cost. Even if he has more money he isn't going to spend more on purpose. If this T2 BPO he's bidding on can be gotten for 20 billion he will only bid 20 billion. Yes it does. If there were no easy way to wealth and we have our 20b bpo there would be only a few people willing to buy it. When people can conjure there isk out of the air without effort you increase the number of people wih sufficient wealth to purchase the BPO. Now there are 10 people with suffcient wealth to purchase the BPO and thus demand has increased the seller can now increase the cost of the BPO to 25B as he has more opportunity to sell it and can demand a higher price for it.
Chelle Green Amarr Green Trading Associates	Posted - 2006.08.16 18:19:00 - [28] You could give a load of economy students an excellent dissertation if you let them have access to the Eve transaction history. Hell you could probably keep a team of dedicated economists busy for years.
Elara Scorpii	Posted - 2006.08.16 18:23:00 - [29] Dear Dev, This is a great topic. One thing i didn't see mentioned is that you did not take in account the growing number of people in eve. In economy they explicitly say in all books, all other things equal... well in Eve.. the amount of people does not stay the same. The larger number or items bought is b/c you have a constantly increasing base of players, where you would of course get a higher number of for e.g. HAC purchases, almost regardless of pricing. Just my 2 cents! PS: This is great, keep up the complexity, it's only healthy!
Hakera Minmatar Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.08.16 18:33:00 - [30] Edited by: Hakera on 16/08/2006 18:41:24 Edited by: Hakera on 16/08/2006 18:33:11 Red, That is certaintly a nice overview of the economy from a basic RPI but I wonder about the income per capita figures. This would be the total income from primary activities per head. I dont know if you can collate all npc bounties and perhaps applying the base ore price, a value of ore mined as well (edit forgot margin trading on npc goods as well). Since only these activites create isk, whilst secondary player activities just redistrubute it minus the small number of sinks along the way it is a good measure of inflation caused by rising income and general spending power. I guess you could start with the basic which is total player/corp wallet isk per head in eve (isk supply) then drill down into income per head of primary activity. Loot income would be an x factor but cant be measured reallistically unless you take the difference between the primary source income and the total isk per head. I wonder, does this spark any discussion that the T2 supply limitations are no longer needed and true market forces be allowed to rule prices rather than artificial supply constraints amongst CCP? anyway, thanks for the info Red, always nice to see. ps can you bump tux on the cloak production tree issues while your there!



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