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Luc Boye
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.17 10:59:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: darth solo
Originally by: Nebuli
Still maintain the original ECM system was FAR superior to the current system, the old system had its flaws agreed, but not like todays system.
If CCP cant come up with a way to fix I dont know why they dont just put it back how it was.
the old system was exact.. if u had 3 racial jammers u had -18 of whatever race.. this meant if i had a backup u would be screwed and i would kill you... i also liked that way...
it was a time of 1v1s in BS, who had the best skills won... now even frigs have ecm. and why would they not. its a game of chance and luck and i cant believe CCP have continued with it even though 90% of eve hates it.
What ^^ he said
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.17 11:14:00 -
[32]
i dont like the old system anymore,
but i even more hate the current situation, where every shipc an use a multispectral and be very effective with it.
my suggestion would b to limit ecm to the ew dediacted ships,
ecm to scorps, rooks, bbs and griffins,
dampeners to the gallente ones etc.
less ew could only b good for this game.
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Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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KilROCK
Minmatar
Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.17 11:23:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
i dont like the old system anymore,
but i even more hate the current situation, where every shipc an use a multispectral and be very effective with it.
my suggestion would b to limit ecm to the ew dediacted ships,
ecm to scorps, rooks, bbs and griffins,
dampeners to the gallente ones etc.
less ew could only b good for this game.
The problem isn't exactly ECM in general, it's multispecs and chance based system and probably, a bit too high strenght on the modules.
Reducing ECM to only dedicated platform is kinda harsh, Does that mean we get minmatar ships only being the ones able to use the useless target painting, amarr using Tracking disruptors and gallente dampeners?
ECM needs a fixing, and it's nice thinking about EVE where skills matters.
For Darth solo, you 1vs1 alot? When does that ever happen now? Everyone has instas, everyone has stabs, being jammed for me is only another way to miss a battle that wouldn't happen because half the people you'd find in a 1vs1 position, aren't willing to fight you in the first place.
Make ECM dedicated to Caldari ECM boats and you got gangs roaming around with purely ganka fitted ships. Not caring about anything else.
Fit to last? no, Fit to kill the crap out of everyone because there's nothing worth tanking for.
Multispecs are the problem, you don't see people flying around with racials just to kill and counter a certain kind of ships (infact i do, for caldari ships).
If someone has a brain to refit to fight you and can jam your ship because he did 'fit' a racial jammer, well. Who cares? If you want, you can fit ECCM and a racial on a non ECM dedicated boat won't be any good for them, same as a Multispec.
It's annoying to see people think EVE will be all magical and fun again without ECM working that effectivly.
You can moan, you can dream but shesh.
If you can't think of a viable way to fix it without reverting back to the old system or making it a purely caldari based option, well. Don't even post.
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Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.08.17 11:35:00 -
[34]
The current state of chance based ECM wouldn't be so bad if the effect of being jammed wasn't so overwhelming. If being jammed meant that some of your ship mods don't work, but you don't lose lock, then it'd be ok.
For complete jamm, it should be harder to achieve than current system. And ECCM still suck at resisting ECM
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KilROCK
Minmatar
Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.17 11:40:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ephemeron
The current state of chance based ECM wouldn't be so bad if the effect of being jammed wasn't so overwhelming. If being jammed meant that some of your ship mods don't work, but you don't lose lock, then it'd be ok.
For complete jamm, it should be harder to achieve than current system. And ECCM still suck at resisting ECM
I would like if jamming would stack, and affecting locking ammount.
So if you can lock maximum of 7 and you're jammed by 6, well. You can still lock.
Well obviously that would mean multispecs would probably reduce your locking ability by 1, and racial of 2 or 3, depending on the strenght you have on them, affected by your ship or not.
Higher strenght, more disrupting locking abilities
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Kunming
Amarr
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.17 11:51:00 -
[36]
In a strategic game like EVE, chance based stuff is most unwelcome.
An experienced FC only sees equations and calculations, throw in a random number into those and even the best tactics will be chance based. This is whats happening with jamming atm.
ECM should be rolled back to the old system. It required much more real skill (especially cycle jamming) and was a tactically calculatable element in pvp.
The current ECM system reminds me much of the RSD BBs back in the day when locking time was the most important attribute on a ship
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Midnighter
Minmatar
Liberal Trading Co
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2006.08.17 11:54:00 -
[37]
Compared to fighting under the old system I preffer the new system better.
It statisticaly still provides the same jamming as before (which will vary wildly when actually applied).
But it also adds in uncertainty.
This means that a BS or Recon with 5 multis would be GUARENTEED to jam all but the most dedicated anti-ECM pilots in old rules, but now there is the potential for the ECM to miss, thus not making it an INSTA-WIN.
Yes he will still probably lock him down EVERY cycle, but it is not guarenteed.
This actually means there is a balancing factor in the ECM. It is VERY powerfull, but it is not 100% effective. It also opens up ECM for smaller ships, as they can try a blast from one ECM to try and ahcieve a 20s window to fight/escape.
I rarely use ECM, but I like this environment. I am happy to fight these pilots as I understand the statistics, and know how to minimise their chances of taking me out.
ECCM are VERY powerful just now, and one ship in your gang, packing a few of them can TOTALLY neutralise an enemy ECM boat.
The statistics work, there are small holes to increase survival and there are ways to protect your gang.
Taking a step back to the old system is just that: Taking a step BACK.
If CCP decide that the new system is too imperfect for the game design and want to address issues, then they should take it a step forward. They should look at a new system that develops it further into something new and fine tuned and in line with what they feel is appropriate.
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Deepeh
Northern Intelligence
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.17 11:58:00 -
[38]
I would think making the jamming time to be around 10 sec and the cycle time for the jammer to activate again would be 20 sec would maybe fix some things. Also if you balance out targetting issues, like taking 25 sec to target something is just ridicilous even for a battleship. should be a max. cap of 17,5 sec to lock something or something equal.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly. |
Locke Ateid
Minmatar
Outrider Fleet Command
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:02:00 -
[39]
Is a step backwards such a bad things if the step forward was in the wrong direction anyway?
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Andrea Jaruwalski
Caldari
Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:03:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Locke Ateid
Is a step backwards such a bad things if the step forward was in the wrong direction anyway?
Not my fault if you can't adapt.
ECCM got boosted, now it's not CCP's fault if people are whiners and can't read sticky topics concerning upcoming "changes".
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Toolivus
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:06:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Locke Ateid
Is a step backwards such a bad things if the step forward was in the wrong direction anyway?
I hear that. Even though I wasn't around in those days I think I prefer the old system to the current.
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hired goon
Fate.
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:08:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Nebuli
Still maintain the original ECM system was FAR superior to the current system, the old system had its flaws agreed, but not like todays system.
If CCP cant come up with a way to fix I dont know why they dont just put it back how it was.
-omg-
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Midnighter
Minmatar
Liberal Trading Co
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:09:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Locke Ateid
Is a step backwards such a bad things if the step forward was in the wrong direction anyway?
Yes. Because as much as there are those who do not like the current system, there are just as many who do. And I think reverting to the old system would be a worse place than we are now.
Old System < New System
So a step back is in a wrong direction. I see the original step forward as being in the right direction.
My Alliance have experimented with a lot of ECCM modules and how to apply them, and we have had a number of surprising results that help deal with the power of ECM.
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KilROCK
Minmatar
Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:12:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Midnighter
Originally by: Locke Ateid
Is a step backwards such a bad things if the step forward was in the wrong direction anyway?
Yes. Because as much as there are those who do not like the current system, there are just as many who do. And I think reverting to the old system would be a worse place than we are now.
Old System < New System
So a step back is in a wrong direction. I see the original step forward as being in the right direction.
My Alliance have experimented with a lot of ECCM modules and how to apply them, and we have had a number of surprising results that help deal with the power of ECM.
Agreed, there's a counter for everything in this game, and even tho people don't want to use it or somehow can't use it on some ships, they'll still go out and call it overpowered and moan forever.
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Celeste Storm
Gallente
Elite United Corp
Antigo Dominion
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:14:00 -
[45]
Originally by: darth solo
*whine* ... i cant believe CCP have continued with it even though 90% of eve hates it.
u might want to change that. It must read: i cant believe CCP have continued with it even though 90% of the casual forum whiners hates it.
*goes whining about whiners whining in whining threads* 
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Locke Ateid
Minmatar
Outrider Fleet Command
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:21:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski
Originally by: Locke Ateid
Is a step backwards such a bad things if the step forward was in the wrong direction anyway?
Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski
Not my fault if you can't adapt.
No one blames you.
Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski
ECCM got boosted, now it's not CCP's fault if people are whiners and can't read sticky topics concerning upcoming "changes".
Then that something your going take up with the original poster for not paying attention. Course, it is CCP's fault for creating a ECM system that they themselves admitted doesn't work.
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KilROCK
Minmatar
Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:24:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Locke Ateid
Then that something your going take up with the original poster for not paying attention. Course, it is CCP's fault for creating a ECM system that they themselves admitted doesn't work.
They admitted it doesn't work? It works, It works great, it works. Does it? Yes, it does.
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Hayabusa Fury
Caldari
Wu-Tang Financial
Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:26:00 -
[48]
I see the problem being the loss of lock.
If there is a break in the jam then it takes too long to re-lock. I think a successful jam should make you unable to fire but you retain lock. Then, once the jam fails you unload on them. Basically it just becomes a DPS hit.
Then we can see if the radom generator is broken. I think cycle time and re-lock on top of it is the issue here. at least for large ships being jammed by smaller ones.
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"I can not recall the number of times my superior intellect has got me knee deep in ****!" --Harely Hayes |
KilROCK
Minmatar
Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:30:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Hayabusa Fury
I see the problem being the loss of lock.
If there is a break in the jam then it takes too long to re-lock. I think a successful jam should make you unable to fire but you retain lock. Then, once the jam fails you unload on them. Basically it just becomes a DPS hit.
Then we can see if the radom generator is broken. I think cycle time and re-lock on top of it is the issue here. at least for large ships being jammed by smaller ones.
It jams your ship targeting sensor strenghts, if it jams you, you shouldn't be able to 'lock' or have your ship manage the targets you had locked.
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Locke Ateid
Minmatar
Outrider Fleet Command
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:31:00 -
[50]
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Locke Ateid
Then that something your going take up with the original poster for not paying attention. Course, it is CCP's fault for creating a ECM system that they themselves admitted doesn't work.
They admitted it doesn't work? It works, It works great, it works. Does it? Yes, it does.
Do you seriously have to be so literal?
Fine let me rephase it then "Course, it is CCP's fault for creating a ECM system that they themselves admitted isn't balanced."
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KilROCK
Minmatar
Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:35:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Locke Ateid
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Locke Ateid
Then that something your going take up with the original poster for not paying attention. Course, it is CCP's fault for creating a ECM system that they themselves admitted doesn't work.
They admitted it doesn't work? It works, It works great, it works. Does it? Yes, it does.
Do you seriously have to be so literal?
Fine let me rephase it then "Course, it is CCP's fault for creating a ECM system that they themselves admitted isn't balanced."
Balanced? Is kinda is, you've been given the tools to prevent your ships to get jammed easily, now. Big deal? you don't use it. CCP fault? no, yours? no.
If you don't use them, you don't have a choice to moan, Hell. If they fixed this, i could run around with dampeners and keep at range and you couldn't do crap because you wouldn't use Sensor boosters, now you'd whine Sensor dampeners are overpowered because you don't use the modules given out to counter them? No, you wouldn't.
Now stop moaning.
If a t1 frigate wants to *****all their cap to run 2 cycle of a t1 multispec and kill you with about 10 other ships, well BIG DEAL.
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Wilfan Ret'nub
Singularity.
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:41:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Hayabusa Fury
They need to make it so the ECM is a defensive module not an offensive one.
ECM is a defensive module. Jamming a ship decreases it's DPS (barring FOF missiles, drones, smartbombs etc.) and so far noone died from jamming alone. Same goes for sensor damps and tracking disruptors. The only offensive EWAR is target painting and even that only in a support role - you still need other modules shooting the target.
What you want is to limit the defense from all ships to the ship made a successfull jam.
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
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Posted - 2006.08.17 13:12:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Hayabusa Fury
...
I don't know, but 1 module should not be able to take out an entire ship.
I think it is like any game that has a snare, stun or any move like jamming that 1 move can disable another player. It is just not fun. Which is the reason we are all here in the first place, for FUN...remember that module CCP?
[sarcasm]
yeah I agree, lets take out ew and especially warp scrambling...
[/sarcasm]
ECM used to work just like the warp stab/scramble thing still works now.. points.. if A > B then A wins.. fun fun fun.. used to have fleet flying around with enough ecm to be able to scramble what they wanted when they wanted..
I don't agree with the suggestion to make it so being jammed just makes it impossible to lock the jammer.. this means you can just pump up your eccm to make that neigh impossible.. if you're jammed you're jammed, tough luck
should it be nerfed? possibly ... been on either end, but the thing is, everyone can use warp scramblers and webbers, and trust me a combo of remote sensor dampeners and warp disruptors is just as crippling as ecm (and it always works, have a vexor use 2 dampeners on you, AB and warp disruptor and see how much he is to have at 19 km ..)
part of the game I guess, being a drone purist I have just accepted all the stuff (and yes if I need to pvp I use ecm domi, can you blame me without gunnery??)..
- All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me
- Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Typhoon and Dominix please |
Vathar
Elegance
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Posted - 2006.08.17 13:22:00 -
[54]
Well, While I agree that the current ECM system needs some tweaking, it's mostly fine.
the idea of being unable to activate modules on someone when you're jammed without losing the lock sounds nice to me. If you complain about realism, honestly balance matters more to me. An alternative would be to put a signature radius penalty to a ship activating an ECM ... the electronic noise it emits makes it shine like a beacon to your own sensors if its cycle fails or something like this. that way you can relock faster ...
Dynamic sensor and jamming strenghts ideas have been posted, meaning that jamming gets harder as successful cycles pass. could be nice too.
And multispecs could definitely receive a bit of tweaking, on this i agree
however, I can't stand people complaining that they get jammed constantly but can't be arsed to fit ECCM. That's like saying "I get killed constantly but won't bother to fit a tank". I get the feeling that those pilots want to reduce pvp to a tanking/dps contest. Maybe you don't have the slots to do it 1v1, but Eve isn't really geared towards 1v1 anyway. You got your BS raped by 10 frigs? how many mids do you think it represents? up to 30 maybe? If they're smart they won't pack 1web and 1 scrambler each, meaning they might get as much as 15 free mids for EW-ing the hell outta you. Big surprise heh?
Reminds me of people asking for BS 1v1 on Sisi. I can understand when they ask for "no ECM" since they want to test something, but when I hear a raven pilot asking for "no EW, no NOS" I usually go ROFL. Usually, those pilots have a vanilla setup and a set of crystals, making them tough as coffin nails, and they want us to engage in a tanking contest while they've probably got one of the best tanks in game. Of course, if they fit this huge tank, they can't defend properly against modules that don't deal direct damage to them, so why not asking to nerf the hell outta those modules i ask you?
_
Originally by: Stamm
Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing an uzi
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Dirtbag Monika
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Posted - 2006.08.17 13:46:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Vathar
An alternative would be to put a signature radius penalty to a ship activating an ECM ... the electronic noise it emits makes it shine like a beacon to your own sensors if its cycle fails or something like this. that way you can relock faster ...
This is quite a nice idea.
I think generally the biggest gripe for most ppl is the the 1 multi spec fitted ships and I would definately agree that the single multispec is the biggest and virtually only problem with ECM. We've probably all suffered the frustration of being jammed over and over again by a single multi. In particular I would say the BS is the the ship that suffers the most in these conditions as the relock time is so long. I think the Chance based system wouldn't be so bad if it were just tweaked a little.
Rather than all these exotic changes to the system how about tweaking the current system to make the single multispec/Jammer much less effective on none-ECM ships.
Ways to do this could be:
Increase sensor strength particularly on BS
Decrease the over all effectiveness of all ECM and maybe increase the bonus's on ECM ships
Cool Off period is not a bad idea and maybe a bonus for the reduction of this on ECM boats.
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MrJordanIOI
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.17 14:04:00 -
[56]
The cool off and partial jam are all great ideas for future expansions.
Right now there is one sad truth:
The random generator is utterly broken and/or the values are too high.
For now it may be just a claim, so best base it on some facts I guess.
All I can tell is that 5 med ECM drones with their puny strength should not be able to jam a BS, yet they can.
IOI
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Jerick Ludhowe
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
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Posted - 2006.08.17 14:24:00 -
[57]
Here is a somewhat radical suggestion to fix the ecm problem. How about both logistic drones and logistic modules be overhauled so that they can be used w/o requiring a lock on the ship you wish to "heal". I think this would give people a defensive group oriented option they can utilize while under the effect of Ewar.
Another option along the same general idea would be to implement a module that has a chance of removing the effect of ewar from a gang mates ship and making it imune to that form of ewar for a short period of time. These modules could come in a variety of flavors, specific modules designed to counter a specific ewar type and a "multi spec" version that would have a sustantially lower chance but be capable of removing the effect from all forms of ewar. Again I do not think these modules should require a lock to be used.
Notice that these suggestions are oriented more twards group play as I feel that the current combat model of eve make group combat extremely limited. Calling primary and gank under the cover of ecm is what gang pvp has comedown to at this point, lets spice it up a bit  .
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Sangxianc
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.17 14:54:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Sangxianc on 17/08/2006 14:55:16
Originally by: KilROCK
If you don't use them, you don't have a choice to moan, Hell. If they fixed this, i could run around with dampeners and keep at range and you couldn't do crap because you wouldn't use Sensor boosters, now you'd whine Sensor dampeners are overpowered because you don't use the modules given out to counter them? No, you wouldn't.
That's because a sensor booster has a positive effect on your ship, instead of only countering a negative one.
If ECCM, say, also increased signature resolution by 25%, then people would be more willing to fit it. That way they're not just being forced to fit the "anti gimp yourself" module to sort of, occassionaly, if they're lucky, prevent other peoples' win button with no actual positive aspect to make it useful when ECM isn't being used.
(KomradeVirtunov) I decided to google cat **** |
Lone Eagle
Penumbra Squadron
Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.08.17 15:15:00 -
[59]
What do you think of this idea? And you'll have to excuse me if it has already been brought up.
What if ECCM worked as a jammer-jammer. Activating the module would reduce the jamming strength of the selected ship.
That would make it so that it's not only useful if you're the one jammed.
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Sorja
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.08.17 15:42:00 -
[60]
Originally by: KilROCK
...you've been given the tools to prevent your ships to get jammed easily, now. Big deal? you don't use it. CCP fault? no, yours? no.
ECCM doesn't work.
I use it and against my 46 sensor strength I still get jammed 2 out of 3 attempts by a single multispec on a Curse.
But I already wrote that, you just didn't read it.
The problem is the chanced based system, nothing else.
This was stated trazillion times before CCP overhauled the ECM system and still they threw in what we have now.
How does it make you like in your gang, when you are asked why your 7 jammers ship didn't jam anything for the whole battle and the only thing you can reply would be like: 'not my fault, that Enyo got me jammed for the whole battle with his multispec'.
Huh?
____________________
Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings?
Quillan Rage > Iron ships |
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