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Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.10.23 20:53:45 - [1] - Quote I think a lot of people will agree logistics ships need some attention. Being a avid logi pilot myself I thought I would put down some of my ideas. 1. Force T2 Logistics to use Medium reps . a.) The current range bonus is fine. (when using medium reps) b.) Give it a bonus to rep amount. c.) Add a high slot module that will give project Anit EWAR and loose the offensive and drone bonusGÇÖs as nobody uses them. (Some examples) Minmatar- anti web Gallente- anti damp Caldari- anti ecm Amarr- anti neut 2. Introduce t2 logistics frigs. Because that would just be amazing. 3. Introduce a battle cruiser sized MJD capable logistics ship. a.) Massively less mobile than the cruisers. b.) Logistics module similar to the bastion module. 1min cool down on MJD and increased rep amount and range when engaged with the inability to receive remote reps. (aww itGÇÖs a little triage carrier) c.) Can use large remote reps I hope it is not lost to CCP that some people specialize in certain fields. Some guys are nuts about cepters, some just fly ECM ships, some have a strange addiction to interdictors, and some of us love logistics. I know logistics is a touchy subject and I know it needs a REWORKING (not a nerf nuke). Kicking logi in the pants does not have to be painful make it exciting. Give the logi pilots of eve something to be excited about. PLEASE Love, Cr Turist. P.S please give the bassi some love that ship is hurting soooooo bad.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 153	Posted - 2014.10.23 21:00:09 - [2] - Quote I can get behind some of this. A t2 BC based on a third CBC hull (stealth request for more combat battlecruisers, teehee) would be an interesting thing. The issue then becomes making sure that these new Heavy Logisitics ships don't become too much more powerful in terms of rep/s relative to the potential incoming DPS for the engagements they would be good for. The other problem is that this sort of change, once worked out properly, also does things like affect PVE substantially, so it would need some fairly careful working over. Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.10.23 21:20:41 - [3] - Quote James Baboli wrote: I can get behind some of this. A t2 BC based on a third CBC hull (stealth request for more combat battlecruisers, teehee) would be an interesting thing. The issue then becomes making sure that these new Heavy Logisitics ships don't become too much more powerful in terms of rep/s relative to the potential incoming DPS for the engagements they would be good for. The other problem is that this sort of change, once worked out properly, also does things like affect PVE substantially, so it would need some fairly careful working over. the key strength to current logistics is mobility. thats why i say kill this ships mobility and force it to use the (logi modual) where it gets no incoming reps. yes the ship should have SOME tank but not getting reps means u choose. do i wanna rep my fleet or save my own skin. could make for some fun fights
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 154	Posted - 2014.10.23 21:25:15 - [4] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: James Baboli wrote: I can get behind some of this. A t2 BC based on a third CBC hull (stealth request for more combat battlecruisers, teehee) would be an interesting thing. The issue then becomes making sure that these new Heavy Logisitics ships don't become too much more powerful in terms of rep/s relative to the potential incoming DPS for the engagements they would be good for. The other problem is that this sort of change, once worked out properly, also does things like affect PVE substantially, so it would need some fairly careful working over. the key strength to current logistics is mobility. thats why i say kill this ships mobility and force it to use the (logi modual) where it gets no incoming reps. yes the ship should have SOME tank but not getting reps means u choose. do i wanna rep my fleet or save my own skin. could make for some fun fights The issue is that this then massively favors shield logi over armor logi due to the existence of ASBs and their capless rep ability. It allows you to push out massively more reps than armor for the same amount of local tank and cap dedicated to this. Such a module would strongly hurt the already fairly rough off armor brawling meta, as having your logi primaried one by one off the field and cracking faster than the equivalent shield logi due to the nature of ASBs vs AARs would make for a bad fight. Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.10.23 21:29:41 - [5] - Quote oo let me be clear. these ships should not have a local rep bonus. that would be sooo dumb. if he goes in to "logi mode" he is putting himself at risk to save others. the argument about ASB and AAR can be made about any ship. its like saying its not fair missiles dont use cap but hybrids do.
Daoden The Scope Gallente Federation 93	Posted - 2014.10.23 21:40:26 - [6] - Quote Progression of a logi pilot Logi frigate --> T1 logi Cruiser --> T2 Logi Cruiser --> Carrier a T2 logi frigate would be interesting but a logi BC is not needed and we don't really need anything between cruiser and carrier for logi. A small gang of nesters (if you actually manage to run across them) is already tough to crack and they really aren't considered to be a logi ship. Adding a bigger more tankier logi ship is not a good idea, if anything it would be abused in trade hubs for neutral logi.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 154	Posted - 2014.10.23 21:52:15 - [7] - Quote Daoden wrote: Progression of a logi pilot Logi frigate --> T1 logi Cruiser --> T2 Logi Cruiser --> Carrier a T2 logi frigate would be interesting but a logi BC is not needed and we don't really need anything between cruiser and carrier for logi. A small gang of nesters (if you actually manage to run across them) is already tough to crack and they really aren't considered to be a logi ship. Adding a bigger more tankier logi ship is not a good idea, if anything it would be abused in trade hubs for neutral logi. It isn't necessary, but would be an interesting choice. I support both of the concepts, but the proposed implementation is not to my liking in the slightest. Quote: oo let me be clear. these ships should not have a local rep bonus. that would be sooo dumb. if he goes in to "logi mode" he is putting himself at risk to save others. the argument about ASB and AAR can be made about any ship. its like saying its not fair missiles dont use cap but hybrids do. The point was more that the normally decent fittings on t2 ships, combined with the ability to push resists very high and the existence of XLASBs to put massive burst tank out makes the inability to receive incoming reps much much more problematic on armor ships than on shield ships, as it becomes much easier to cap coast out of a cycle when your reps don't use cap. Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.10.23 21:53:18 - [8] - Quote Daoden wrote: Progression of a logi pilot Logi frigate --> T1 logi Cruiser --> T2 Logi Cruiser --> Carrier a T2 logi frigate would be interesting but a logi BC is not needed and we don't really need anything between cruiser and carrier for logi. A small gang of nesters (if you actually manage to run across them) is already tough to crack and they really aren't considered to be a logi ship. Adding a bigger more tankier logi ship is not a good idea, if anything it would be abused in trade hubs for neutral logi. i agree with ur progression chart however after the patch jump distances will be massively kicked in the balls as we all know. i can tell you what the answer will be to large alliances if they cant bring more triage. BRING MORE LOGI !!! the important part of the new BC concept is that if the ship is not in ""logi mode" then its reps are crazy weak, but it can get reps. going into logi mode give the ability to GIVE reps and not get them. its the same idea of a triage carrier only this does not get a bonus to local reps. and OFC the reps it does give have to be tuned to not be over powered. And please dont tell the SM3LL guy about nestor fleets.
Daoden The Scope Gallente Federation 93	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:00:45 - [9] - Quote No offense but ever since Bastion module came out everyone and their mother wants a "something" mode on a new ship or an existing one. If you want a logi ship you don't need a "mode". You just need a logi ship. trying to add in something for the sake of adding something doesn't make the game any better. The idea of having a BC with crappy reps is indeed possible already, but adding a module that will boost their repping power but make it so they cannot receive any assistance seems like a waste. Sounds more like I sacrifice my ship to save another, and there are other ways to do that, (RIP my kitsune but you saved our carrier) I would prefer more ships like the scimitar with a bonus to shield reps and tracking links, only instead of tracking links lets add something else to it like maybe a ship with a bonus to remote SEBOs or ECCM.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 154	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:02:43 - [10] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: Daoden wrote: Progression of a logi pilot Logi frigate --> T1 logi Cruiser --> T2 Logi Cruiser --> Carrier a T2 logi frigate would be interesting but a logi BC is not needed and we don't really need anything between cruiser and carrier for logi. A small gang of nesters (if you actually manage to run across them) is already tough to crack and they really aren't considered to be a logi ship. Adding a bigger more tankier logi ship is not a good idea, if anything it would be abused in trade hubs for neutral logi. i agree with ur progression chart however after the patch jump distances will be massively kicked in the balls as we all know. i can tell you what the answer will be to large alliances if they cant bring more triage. BRING MORE LOGI !!! the important part of the new BC concept is that if the ship is not in ""logi mode" then its reps are crazy weak, but it can get reps. going into logi mode give the ability to GIVE reps and not get them. its the same idea of a triage carrier only this does not get a bonus to local reps. and OFC the reps it does give have to be tuned to not be over powered. And please dont tell the SM3LL guy about nestor fleets. So, outside this "logi mode" how much do they rep, and do they have an inherent range bonus, or is it dependent on this mini-triage, or is it split between the two? Do they have 3 reps and this logi module to keep them underpowered outside it, or do they have the space for more? Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.

baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13699	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:05:40 - [11] - Quote What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:09:25 - [12] - Quote outside of logi mode the reps and range should come at face value of that modual. having 4 reps with the modual so 5 highslots would be to me a natural go to. the key to the ship is the modual. its a effective logistics ship because of the modual. the other bonus it gets would be something that would require some more brainstorming.
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:12:14 - [13] - Quote baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi and i think thats funny as hell coming from a goon.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 154	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:14:32 - [14] - Quote baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. If there was a way to do that without nerfing high end PvE into the ground, I would agree with you right now. As it is, I think something more like missile explosion size vs sig radius would be more appropriate and easier to balance with the current PvE, and also encourage more tactical game play as far as pulsing props to enhance sig radius, etc. Quote: outside of logi mode the reps and range should come at face value of that modual. having 4 reps with the modual so 5 highslots would be to me a natural go to. the key to the ship is the modual. its a effective logistics ship because of the modual. the other bonus it gets would be something that would require some more brainstorming. So, outside of this fairly niche role, you can get substantially more out of a standard logi cruiser with A type reps if your entire proposal is followed. The implementation, if not the concept, is not done baking and should probably be pushed back a step until you have the relation of these two very similar ship types balanced against each other. Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Daoden The Scope Gallente Federation 93	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:18:12 - [15] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi how ever i must say having a optimal range on logi would be kinda cool. the farther away you are the less effective your reps and i think thats funny as hell coming from a goon. Guardian setup I fly for PvP logi has ECCM, guess how many falcons itll take to jam 1 logi with that setup 100% of the time. no multiply by the number of logi on grid, subtract DPS for each falcon you have to field, and now watch your fleet get torn to pieces. You clearly have not gone up against a large fleet, and by large I don't just me 10-20 players.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13699	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:19:33 - [16] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi ECM doesnt work hence why it was retired from everyones fleets several years ago. Neuts are also no good in large fleet fights. Damps work but only if you dedicate an entire secondary fleet to it which means only the big powerblocks can use it and it is useless on a carrier force supported by supers. Logi is simply too powerful and is going to have to be delt with. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:22:06 - [17] - Quote Daoden wrote: Cr Turist wrote: baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi how ever i must say having a optimal range on logi would be kinda cool. the farther away you are the less effective your reps and i think thats funny as hell coming from a goon. Guardian setup I fly for PvP logi has ECCM, guess how many falcons itll take to jam 1 logi with that setup 100% of the time. no multiply by the number of logi on grid, subtract DPS for each falcon you have to field, and now watch your fleet get torn to pieces. You clearly have not gone up against a large fleet, and by large I don't just me 10-20 players. Wow your right. i have never been in a big fight u caught me.
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:22:52 - [18] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Cr Turist wrote: baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi ECM doesnt work hence why it was retired from everyones fleets several years ago. Neuts are also no good in large fleet fights. Damps work but only if you dedicate an entire secondary fleet to it which means only the big powerblocks can use it and it is useless on a carrier force supported by supers. Logi is simply too powerful and is going to have to be delt with. the guys in Provi would not agree with you that neuts are not effective.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 926	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:23:14 - [19] - Quote baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. i agree .. but the question becomes how too apply the stacking penalty ? - using current stacking penalty ratios .. after about the 4th rep mod repping becomes pretty weak.. 1 logi per ship is too harsh a nerf - adding a reduced stacking penalty just for reps perhaps? ... so you might be able too double or triple the amount of mods before hitting the cliff - or perhaps adding a hard set limit of modules and everything after is useless Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
Daoden The Scope Gallente Federation 93	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:23:41 - [20] - Quote I vote they increase the lockbreaker bombs jam strength to make it useable

baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13699	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:27:18 - [21] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: the guys in Provi would not agree with you that neuts are not effective. The people in provi haven't had a war with us. Neuts have never worked and not for a lack of trying. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 927	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:28:29 - [22] - Quote on T2 logis themselves .. some ideas - add 1 mid slot per ship ... particularly on the oneiros/scimitar too allow for use of remote TC's - better cap too reduce the amount of cap mods needed for solo reppers and allows for remote TC's - reduce the T2 resists .. they shouldn't be as tough as HAC's with half the sig radius .. also logis need more weaknesses - maybe add more utility support mod bonuses too them .. projected eccm for instance.. i also think the T1 logi has far too much rep range for the ease of SP and cost too get into them Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:29:23 - [23] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Cr Turist wrote: baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. i find most people that say a fleet is not killable dont know what a falcon are. maybe a keres? people dont put pressure on logi thats teh problem the people that do have no issue with them. you have to make the logi work. switch targets. use jamming drones, damp them. wear down their cap make them make a navagation error. thats how u kill logi ECM doesnt work hence why it was retired from everyones fleets several years ago. Neuts are also no good in large fleet fights. Damps work but only if you dedicate an entire secondary fleet to it which means only the big powerblocks can use it and it is useless on a carrier force supported by supers. Logi is simply too powerful and is going to have to be delt with. The point of this post was to throw an idea out. logi is a great area in eve its fun its stressful if you mess up your fleet dies. i agree logi in its current form needs to be tweaked. but you cant kill it off. if you do then giant blocks will just blob harder than they already do NC. being one of those that would. what i want is for logi to take skill to fly make it something that if your pilots are good at it you have an advantage. adding in choices on ships is not a bad thing. adding in a new type of logistics ship would be great just for the fact it would give people another option.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 155	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:34:32 - [24] - Quote Harvey James wrote: on T2 logis themselves .. some ideas - add 1 mid slot per ship ... particularly on hte oneiros/scimitar too allow for use of remote TC's - better cap too reduce the amount of cap mods needed for solo reppers and allows for remote TC's - reduce the T2 resists .. they shouldn't be as tough as HAC's with half the sig radius .. also logis need more weaknesses - maybe add more utility support mod bonuses too them .. projected eccm for instance.. i also think the T1 logi has far too much rep range for the ease of SP and cost too get into them T2 logi with an extra slot just become even tougher to kill in PVP, and now I can put 6 links on an incursion scimitar. yey. Better cap negates the high skill requirements that currently one of the few things keeping logi in check. It is possible to permarun 4 large reps on a scimitar with 3 mods and the rigs for cap at full skills and a couple mill in your head. T2 resists are the one thing least likely to change on logistics ships, as they need every little bit of those resists to counter lower base HP and extreme neut susceptibility on scimi/oni or ECM on your partners ship in basi/guardi More bonuses on these ships will quickly make them even more brokenly powerful as these remove the counters currently in place for logi, such as jamming one out via concerted effort or a dedicated hamming squad. t1 logi are in a reasonable place for the most part (though I would like the rep amount reduced slightly so shiny medium reps don't out perform large reps, merely make parity) Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 927	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:42:40 - [25] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Harvey James wrote: on T2 logis themselves .. some ideas - add 1 mid slot per ship ... particularly on hte oneiros/scimitar too allow for use of remote TC's - better cap too reduce the amount of cap mods needed for solo reppers and allows for remote TC's - reduce the T2 resists .. they shouldn't be as tough as HAC's with half the sig radius .. also logis need more weaknesses - maybe add more utility support mod bonuses too them .. projected eccm for instance.. i also think the T1 logi has far too much rep range for the ease of SP and cost too get into them T2 logi with an extra slot just become even tougher to kill in PVP, and now I can put 6 links on an incursion scimitar. yey. Better cap negates the high skill requirements that currently one of the few things keeping logi in check. It is possible to permarun 4 large reps on a scimitar with 3 mods and the rigs for cap at full skills and a couple mill in your head. T2 resists are the one thing least likely to change on logistics ships, as they need every little bit of those resists to counter lower base HP and extreme neut susceptibility on scimi/oni or ECM on your partners ship in basi/guardi More bonuses on these ships will quickly make them even more brokenly powerful as these remove the counters currently in place for logi, such as jamming one out via concerted effort or a dedicated hamming squad. t1 logi are in a reasonable place for the most part (though I would like the rep amount reduced slightly so shiny medium reps don't out perform large reps, merely make parity) there base HP is almost as good as HAC's actually .. its usually the lack of slots and the need for cap mods that restrict HP.. the low sig and strong speed makes them tank better than HAC's do.. but same high resists as HAC's are unjustifiable .. they are there too support the fleet rep others .. not too tank better than the ships they are supporting Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 155	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:53:13 - [26] - Quote Harvey James wrote: James Baboli wrote: Harvey James wrote: on T2 logis themselves .. some ideas - add 1 mid slot per ship ... particularly on hte oneiros/scimitar too allow for use of remote TC's - better cap too reduce the amount of cap mods needed for solo reppers and allows for remote TC's - reduce the T2 resists .. they shouldn't be as tough as HAC's with half the sig radius .. also logis need more weaknesses - maybe add more utility support mod bonuses too them .. projected eccm for instance.. i also think the T1 logi has far too much rep range for the ease of SP and cost too get into them T2 logi with an extra slot just become even tougher to kill in PVP, and now I can put 6 links on an incursion scimitar. yey. Better cap negates the high skill requirements that currently one of the few things keeping logi in check. It is possible to permarun 4 large reps on a scimitar with 3 mods and the rigs for cap at full skills and a couple mill in your head. T2 resists are the one thing least likely to change on logistics ships, as they need every little bit of those resists to counter lower base HP and extreme neut susceptibility on scimi/oni or ECM on your partners ship in basi/guardi More bonuses on these ships will quickly make them even more brokenly powerful as these remove the counters currently in place for logi, such as jamming one out via concerted effort or a dedicated hamming squad. t1 logi are in a reasonable place for the most part (though I would like the rep amount reduced slightly so shiny medium reps don't out perform large reps, merely make parity) there base HP is almost as good as HAC's actually .. its usually the lack of slots and the need for cap mods that restrict HP.. the low sig and strong speed makes them tank better than HAC's do.. but same high resists as HAC's are unjustifiable .. they are there too support the fleet rep others .. not too tank better than the ships they are supporting If the HACs used as much of their total slots for tank as the logi did, the HACs would generally have better tank. And I agree in the case of the basi/guardi they have almost the same base EHP as the HACs, but they also have almost the same sig as the HACs, and no MWD bonus if they are forced into a situation they need an MWD for. Scimi/oni are much thinner ships than HACs. Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 61	Posted - 2014.10.23 23:39:56 - [27] - Quote No more active rep mods bonus, can still fit them but nowhere near as good. Make the Rep drone bonus 100-200% per Level Make the drones bays bigger (bandwidth stays the same)
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 155	Posted - 2014.10.23 23:43:40 - [28] - Quote Tappits wrote: No more active rep mods bonus, can still fit them but nowhere near as good. Make the Rep drone bonus 100-200% per Level Make the drones bays bigger (bandwidth stays the same) So, absolutely destroy several styles of PVE overnight, making several kinds of content simply unreasonable in a single move? yey. Also, this still does nothing about the fact that any ship which can catch reps is nigh invulnerable once the reps catch in PVP. Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 61	Posted - 2014.10.23 23:56:28 - [29] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Also, this still does nothing about the fact that any ship which can catch reps is nigh invulnerable once the reps catch in PVP. There is 100% no counter to drones. James Baboli wrote: So, absolutely destroy several styles of PVE overnight, making several kinds of content simply unreasonable in a single move? Life finds a way. Some people say the upcoming jump changes are simply unreasonable too. does not stop it form happening. Trying to put stacking penalty's on the reps will be ok for super small scale stuff but eve is more than 1v1's it needs to scale up to 256man fleets or there's no point.
MJ Incognito Macabre Votum Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:00:11 - [30] - Quote Harvey James wrote: baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. i agree .. but the question becomes how too apply the stacking penalty ? - using current stacking penalty ratios .. after about the 4th rep mod repping becomes pretty weak.. 1 logi per ship is too harsh a nerf - adding a reduced stacking penalty just for reps perhaps? ... so you might be able too double or triple the amount of mods before hitting the cliff - or perhaps adding a hard set limit of modules and everything after is useless The way you penalize reps is to have a 2ndary recharge rate on shields/armor that affects max capacity only. This way, as damage comes in, you can degrade the max capacity limit without degrading the actual incoming shields/armor. This means a ship will die over extended time of applied damage, but will sustain durability which is/was the whole arguement for logistics to be implemented way back when. Simple calculator that takes something like 7-10% max HP degredation for all incoming damage. So lets say a fleet hits you're 10,000 shield HP ship for 5,000 post mitigated damage. That ship would then have a maximum shield capacity of 9500 before any more damage come's in. The recharge rate for this type of 2ndary recharge would be something in the range of 3-5 minutes... so over the course of a fight, your shields could recharge to maximum capacity if you stop taking damage... but if you're sustaining damage and do not warp out, then you're toast eventually... no matter how many repairs you get. That's especially important in a Capital vs sub-capital battle where one side is virtually unkillable atm.

James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 155	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:03:30 - [31] - Quote James Baboli wrote: So, absolutely destroy several styles of PVE overnight, making several kinds of content simply unreasonable in a single move? Life finds a way. Some people say the upcoming jump changes are simply unreasonable too. does not stop it form happening.[/quote] Doesn't mean that it doesn't destroy the play style as it currently exists, for at most a chance at changing the meta in null. Warp speed change and jump changes hit everyone evenly, slowed down isk farming and so on. This hits the PvE side, where fights large enough to require logi as it requires a 5B investment in tank and a 1B hull, along with a t2 battleship to locally tank the content to do it by going local. Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 61	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:10:23 - [32] - Quote James Baboli wrote: This hits the PvE side, where fights large enough to require logi as it requires a 5B investment in tank and a 1B hull, along with a t2 battleship to locally tank the content to do it by going local. I need context because i cannot work out what your trying to say... if logis have to use drones to rep and not remote reps in what PVE context is it going to completely destroy that type of pve?
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 155	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:15:18 - [33] - Quote Tappits wrote: James Baboli wrote: This hits the PvE side, where fights large enough to require logi as it requires a 5B investment in tank and a 1B hull, along with a t2 battleship to locally tank the content to do it by going local. I need context because i cannot work out what your trying to say... if logis have to use drones to rep and not remote reps in what PVE context is it going to completely destroy that type of pve? I am talking about incursions, and some ways of running c3 and c4 sites Incursion rats eat drones. They especially eat logi drones. If you can suddenly lose 20% of the rep on each of your logi as your drones are alpha'd off the field and now you have to rep upwards of 10k incoming DPS, this will end up killing ships fast. Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 851	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:30:40 - [34] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Cr Turist wrote: the guys in Provi would not agree with you that neuts are not effective. The people in provi haven't had a war with us. Neuts have never worked and not for a lack of trying. There is a pretty effective way to counter sub capital logi with Praetor EV-900s assuming (which is a fairly big assumption) that the hostiles don't firewall and your line grunts are half able to do things for themselves. There is also another way to use neuts effectively and harder to counter but not gonna hand that one out on a plate. EDIT: Its definitely not a hard counter though or an I can win button.
Komi Toran Paragon Trust The Bastion 335	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:39:21 - [35] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: i agree with ur progression chart however after the patch jump distances will be massively kicked in the balls as we all know. What people apparently don't all know is that carriers will be able to take gates. Your BC logi is thus already obsolete.
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 851	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:44:44 - [36] - Quote ^^ I can't wait til the fun unfolds when capitals can take gates, I can see a lot more special casing (like hics stopping them jumping gates) coming up to stop issues down the line :D
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 155	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:46:30 - [37] - Quote They aren't entirely obsoleted, as they bring more rep power to highsec. This is not, most of the time, a good thing for highsec pvp, with the much lower average gang size. Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 851	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:53:36 - [38] - Quote James Baboli wrote: They aren't entirely obsoleted, as they bring more rep power to highsec. This is not, most of the time, a good thing for highsec pvp, with the much lower average gang size. Small gangs in highsec can unlike larger null engagements effectively use ECM against logi. One highsec war I was in a single falcon put enough pressure on their 5 RR ships to make them breakable with a small gang.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 157	Posted - 2014.10.24 01:05:54 - [39] - Quote Rroff wrote: James Baboli wrote: They aren't entirely obsoleted, as they bring more rep power to highsec. This is not, most of the time, a good thing for highsec pvp, with the much lower average gang size. Small gangs in highsec can unlike larger null engagements effectively use ECM against logi. One highsec war I was in a single falcon put enough pressure on their 5 RR ships to make them breakable with a small gang. Ah, but the OP had something saying they had some major anti-EWAR buff, so I made the assumption that this put ECM back into the "eh, maybe" category. Yes, I do incursions. Find out how to be as space rich as me here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 851	Posted - 2014.10.24 01:13:51 - [40] - Quote Ah wasn't following your train of thought.

Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy 650	Posted - 2014.10.24 03:54:08 - [41] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: I think a lot of people will agree logistics ships need some attention. Being a avid logi pilot myself I thought I would put down some of my ideas. 1. Force T2 Logistics to use Medium reps . a.) The current range bonus is fine. (when using medium reps) b.) Give it a bonus to rep amount. c.) Add a high slot module that will give project Anit EWAR and loose the offensive and drone bonusGÇÖs as nobody uses them. (Some examples) Minmatar- anti web Gallente- anti damp Caldari- anti ecm Amarr- anti neut 2. Introduce t2 logistics frigs. Because that would just be amazing. 3. Introduce a battle cruiser sized MJD capable logistics ship. a.) Massively less mobile than the cruisers. b.) Logistics module similar to the bastion module. 1min cool down on MJD and increased rep amount and range when engaged with the inability to receive remote reps. (aww itGÇÖs a little triage carrier) c.) Can use large remote reps I hope it is not lost to CCP that some people specialize in certain fields. Some guys are nuts about cepters, some just fly ECM ships, some have a strange addiction to interdictors, and some of us love logistics. I know logistics is a touchy subject and I know it needs a REWORKING (not a nerf nuke). Kicking logi in the pants does not have to be painful make it exciting. Give the logi pilots of eve something to be excited about. PLEASE Love, Cr Turist. P.S please give the bassi some love that ship is hurting soooooo bad. As a logi pilot, I'm amazed and a little sceptical that you have ever flown logi. mainly because I can't imagine the havoc this change would do to incursions.. Not being able to fit large remote reppers would be the death of these fleets. Bastiion modes would be next to useless in situations where you have to rep on the move. It may be true that basi need some love but after the changes you outline here they will need major love to even remain functional. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á- [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 28	Posted - 2014.10.24 07:16:47 - [42] - Quote ok so after some thought and some very good points i have come to a couple of conclusions. 1. people that run incursions hate anything to do with change. 2. people who PVE really dont like change. when i wrote this i must admit my mind was on pvp as that is what i do every day. it struck me with the upcoming changes carrier triage will be much harder to insert into fights and even harder to move around. with that frame of mind i started thinking about as a logi pilot what changes to my loved scimi could i deal with? the scimi is a amazing ship it moves well, its had a decent tank, and its repping power is good. but then it dawned on me. i have flow the same 3 damn ships for the last 8 years. scimi, guard, onei. yeah the nestor thing is cool and everyone loves to drop a triage but in most day to day runnings its the same 3. i see all these F1 kittys getting all they cool ships and i ask myself why cant i have more options? im sorry to all the bears out running incursions that some 0.0 guy wants ccp to ruin your game and ensure you never have any what to farm isk. maybe you will have to fit something that looks like tank on your vindis and machs.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 61	Posted - 2014.10.24 07:57:23 - [43] - Quote James Baboli wrote: I am talking about incursions, and some ways of running c3 and c4 sites Incursion rats eat drones. They especially eat logi drones. If you can suddenly lose 20% of the rep on each of your logi as your drones are alpha'd off the field and now you have to rep upwards of 10k incoming DPS, this will end up killing ships fast. Sounds like a good change then. If incursion rats like killing drones it means a competent logi pilot will be needed to keep in range of his rep drones to save them before they die and can use his (limited range) remote reps to rep his drones. It will mean skill comes into it and having a real life person controlling the logi and not someone multi boxing the hole incursion fleet solo. This fixes meany problems not just OP logis... you can all thank me some other time.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13699	Posted - 2014.10.24 08:40:54 - [44] - Quote Rroff wrote: baltec1 wrote: Cr Turist wrote: the guys in Provi would not agree with you that neuts are not effective. The people in provi haven't had a war with us. Neuts have never worked and not for a lack of trying. There is a pretty effective way to counter sub capital logi with Praetor EV-900s assuming (which is a fairly big assumption) that the hostiles don't firewall and your line grunts are half able to do things for themselves. There is also another way to use neuts effectively and harder to counter but not gonna hand that one out on a plate. EDIT: Its definitely not a hard counter though or an I can win button. One bomb and that blob of drones is gone. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 417	Posted - 2014.10.24 09:42:29 - [45] - Quote If there was a simple way to rebalance all the hulls with +XX to resists and + xx to local tanks.... You could flip logi so that they boost resists and thus force everyone to local tank. Caveat: I've only had one coffee, this may be the derpiest idea on earth. Probably is, but screw it - I'm allowed one a month Edit: Would be too big a step change to ever get in.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 61	Posted - 2014.10.24 10:00:26 - [46] - Quote afkalt wrote: You could flip logi so that they boost resists and thus force everyone to local tank. That is an interesting way to do it. I am shore it has problems but interesting nether the less.
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 29	Posted - 2014.10.24 10:28:05 - [47] - Quote i think making a logi that is drone base is a awesome idea. i mean we do have drone races in this game why not. maybe a destroyer class drone logi ship? but i think making a ship that has close to no maneuverability with a little better tank would be cool. any good logi pilot will tell you maneuverability is key. i say have a class that deviates from that and on top make the pilot make a choice does he wanna rep his buddys and be effective or does he wanna increase his own ability to stay alive. as much as the PVE pilots hate me saying this its seems i think you should have to pilot your ship not just alt tab activate reps and forget about it. make a choice.
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 29	Posted - 2014.10.24 10:38:59 - [48] - Quote afkalt wrote: If there was a simple way to rebalance all the hulls with +XX to resists and + xx to local tanks.... You could flip logi so that they boost resists and thus force everyone to local tank. Caveat: I've only had one coffee, this may be the derpiest idea on earth. Probably is, but screw it - I'm allowed one a month Edit: Would be too big a step change to ever get in. you know it would be cool thing to look at even if it is just as like a last ditch thing you can only recive the benefits when below a certain percentage of shield or armor remaining and in the mean time the logi repping you would be loosing cap do the the mod being active
sapage1 Destructive Influence Northern Coalition. 0	Posted - 2014.10.24 13:09:22 - [49] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: you know it would be cool thing to look at even if it is just as like a last ditch thing you can only recive the benefits when below a certain percentage of shield or armor remaining and in the mean time the logi repping you would be loosing cap do the the mod being active Turist for president!!!
Arronicus Bitter Lemons Brothers of Tangra 1188	Posted - 2014.10.24 13:29:17 - [50] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: I think a lot of people will agree logistics ships need some attention. Being a avid logi pilot myself I thought I would put down some of my ideas. Logis seem fine for me. Each have their own little strengths and weaknesses. Cr Turist wrote: 1. Force T2 Logistics to use Medium reps . a.) The current range bonus is fine. (when using medium reps) b.) Give it a bonus to rep amount. Lost me here. How is making them use medium instead of large reps, but then modifying the medium reps to act as large reps, anything but over-complicating a working system? If it's for the capacitor or range, just ask for more capacitor regen, or a bigger cap usage bonus. Personally, I think the cap, range, and large reps are fine Cr Turist wrote: c.) Add a high slot module that will give project Anit EWAR and loose the offensive and drone bonusGÇÖs as nobody uses them. 1) Offensive bonuses. You might want to check out logistics ships, there are none. 2) On the off chance you mean the optional remote assistance bonuses, yes, they are useful. They get used in incursion fleets, they get used in small gangs. 3) I'm going to assume you've yet to watch an alliance tournament, or well rounded logi/ahac/t3 gang, because the bonused logi drones are VERY valuable. Cr Turist wrote: 2. Introduce t2 logistics frigs. Because that would just be amazing. P.S please give the bassi some love that ship is hurting soooooo bad. Yes, I think we can all agree t2 logi frigs would be nice. The basi is pretty solid, aside from the need for perhaps a small hitpoint increase. If you're having capacitor problems, that is the result of your skills. If you're having speed problems, revise which logi you are using. If you're having fitting problems, they're meant to be very tight. reconsider the fittings, and check your skills.

Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 39	Posted - 2014.10.24 13:31:21 - [51] - Quote -1 While I don't think logi needs a nerf (except maybe to range, since they're outside the range of most EWar), they don't need a buff either.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1336	Posted - 2014.10.24 14:31:47 - [52] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: i think making a logi that is drone base is a awesome idea. i mean we do have drone races in this game why not. maybe a destroyer class drone logi ship? but i think making a ship that has close to no maneuverability with a little better tank would be cool. any good logi pilot will tell you maneuverability is key. i say have a class that deviates from that and on top make the pilot make a choice does he wanna rep his buddys and be effective or does he wanna increase his own ability to stay alive. as much as the PVE pilots hate me saying this its seems i think you should have to pilot your ship not just alt tab activate reps and forget about it. make a choice. If PvE logi were alt-tabbed with reppers on a target, incursion fleet would completely die every night. Neut hard enough to prevent reppers from cycling and target swaps would insure the sites don't get completed but I guess it's ok to make assumption on how logi work in content you don't run... If you want to nerf logi without breaking some content, you would have to allow a certain number of reppers or ship to rep the target like now and have a diminishing return mechanics past a threshold. You would probably have different class of repper module having a different threshold and possibly different diminishing curve. The "unkillable fleet" baltec1 speaks about is real but only really spawn once you reach a certain size threshold anyway.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 61	Posted - 2014.10.24 14:44:14 - [53] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: If PvE logi were alt-tabbed with reppers on a target, incursion fleet would completely die every night. Neut hard enough to prevent reppers from cycling and target swaps would insure the sites don't get completed but I guess it's ok to make assumption on how logi work in content you don't run... If you want to nerf logi without breaking some content, you would have to allow a certain number of reppers or ship to rep the target like now and have a diminishing return mechanics past a threshold. You would probably have different class of repper module having a different threshold and possibly different diminishing curve. The "unkillable fleet" baltec1 speaks about is real but only really spawn once you reach a certain size threshold anyway. O no some one made a suggestion that might hurt the way i play and i might have to think for myself for new options. Let me come up with a dumb idea about making reppers have diminishing returns to distract every one. The unkillable fleet scenario could potentially be 2 T2 logis in a 5 man gang... vs another 5 man gang, N+1 Fleets are the counter to the logis and is not necessary the preceding scenario.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1336	Posted - 2014.10.24 15:09:07 - [54] - Quote Tappits wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: If PvE logi were alt-tabbed with reppers on a target, incursion fleet would completely die every night. Neut hard enough to prevent reppers from cycling and target swaps would insure the sites don't get completed but I guess it's ok to make assumption on how logi work in content you don't run... If you want to nerf logi without breaking some content, you would have to allow a certain number of reppers or ship to rep the target like now and have a diminishing return mechanics past a threshold. You would probably have different class of repper module having a different threshold and possibly different diminishing curve. The "unkillable fleet" baltec1 speaks about is real but only really spawn once you reach a certain size threshold anyway. O no some one made a suggestion that might hurt the way i play and i might have to think for myself for new options. Let me come up with a dumb idea about making reppers have diminishing returns to distract every one. The unkillable fleet scenario could potentially be 2 T2 logis in a 5 man gang... vs another 5 man gang, N+1 Fleets are the counter to the logis and is not necessary the preceding scenario. Applying e-war to a single logi boat to counter 50% of their reps, or 100% if they are in a cap chain mode, is not the same unsolvable problem as doing it to a member of a 20+ ship logi wing. N+1 fleet will always exist. If it's not logi, it will be another type of ships as long as the game exist because I can bring my friends and so can you. The only thing that will remove the N+1 is stacking penalty. For anything without diminishing returns, more will always be better if you want to win. A flat nerf, no matter how implemented, only mean people will bring more to get the same effect because there is no penalty to it.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 417	Posted - 2014.10.24 15:20:26 - [55] - Quote To be fair, because a logi change affects incursions is no reason to NOT fix the problem, it is simply a reason to alter incursions at the same time.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 62	Posted - 2014.10.24 16:40:38 - [56] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Applying e-war to a single logi boat to counter 50% of their reps, or 100% if they are in a cap chain mode, is not the same unsolvable problem as doing it to a member of a 20+ ship logi wing. This just shows how little you know about the subject matter (Logis pvp) and e-war mechanics in pvp and roaming gang setups. I the hypothetical situation of the 5v5 roaming fleets having a fight. I will bring 2 guardians 2 ishtars (because there FOTM) and a Heretic because why not. Please tell me what e-war a standard 5 man gang will have that can take out this? Even a full rack of jams on a rook all on 1 logi does not 100% guaranty that youGÇÖre going to get it jammed. Even if you do the other logi can rep for about a min In the mean time we blap the rook.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 92	Posted - 2014.10.24 18:24:16 - [57] - Quote Tappits wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Applying e-war to a single logi boat to counter 50% of their reps, or 100% if they are in a cap chain mode, is not the same unsolvable problem as doing it to a member of a 20+ ship logi wing. This just shows how little you know about the subject matter (Logis pvp) and e-war mechanics in pvp and roaming gang setups. I the hypothetical situation of the 5v5 roaming fleets having a fight. I will bring 2 guardians 2 ishtars (because there FOTM) and a Heretic because why not. Please tell me what e-war a standard 5 man gang will have that can take out this? Even a full rack of jams on a rook all on 1 logi does not 100% guaranty that youGÇÖre going to get it jammed. Even if you do the other logi can rep for about a min In the mean time we blap the rook. neuts and damps. put both on geddons. 2 un bonus damps puts a guardian with links down to 40km (OH damps) almost within geddon neut range.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 163	Posted - 2014.10.24 20:55:48 - [58] - Quote Tappits wrote: James Baboli wrote: I am talking about incursions, and some ways of running c3 and c4 sites Incursion rats eat drones. They especially eat logi drones. If you can suddenly lose 20% of the rep on each of your logi as your drones are alpha'd off the field and now you have to rep upwards of 10k incoming DPS, this will end up killing ships fast. Sounds like a good change then. If incursion rats like killing drones it means a competent logi pilot will be needed to keep in range of his rep drones to save them before they die and can use his (limited range) remote reps to rep his drones. It will mean skill comes into it and having a real life person controlling the logi and not someone multi boxing the hole incursion fleet solo. This fixes meany problems not just OP logis... you can all thank me some other time. Except that drones will be alpha'd off the field, rather than shot in such a way as to be saveable, like 2-5% armor damage (from full shield) per volley. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 163	Posted - 2014.10.24 20:56:50 - [59] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: Tappits wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Applying e-war to a single logi boat to counter 50% of their reps, or 100% if they are in a cap chain mode, is not the same unsolvable problem as doing it to a member of a 20+ ship logi wing. This just shows how little you know about the subject matter (Logis pvp) and e-war mechanics in pvp and roaming gang setups. I the hypothetical situation of the 5v5 roaming fleets having a fight. I will bring 2 guardians 2 ishtars (because there FOTM) and a Heretic because why not. Please tell me what e-war a standard 5 man gang will have that can take out this? Even a full rack of jams on a rook all on 1 logi does not 100% guaranty that youGÇÖre going to get it jammed. Even if you do the other logi can rep for about a min In the mean time we blap the rook. neuts and damps. put both on geddons. 2 un bonus damps puts a guardian with links down to 40km (OH damps) almost within geddon neut range. Now, how many gangs roam with geddons, and how long can you OH your damps? Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 163	Posted - 2014.10.24 20:58:32 - [60] - Quote afkalt wrote: To be fair, because a logi change affects incursions is no reason to NOT fix the problem, it is simply a reason to alter incursions at the same time. Thus my argument against specific implementations, rather than against logi changes as a whole. I would like to see logi changes that make sense, and don't kill my preferred gameplay style, like signature radius effecting reps receivable. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.

Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 63	Posted - 2014.10.24 21:14:29 - [61] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: neuts and damps. put both on geddons. 2 un bonus damps puts a guardian with links down to 40km (OH damps) almost within geddon neut range. Why would any roaming fleet be anywhere near neut Armageddons? and why would bringing the lock ranges down on the 2 logis mean the logis are going to be within 40 km from well anything that's trying to kill them still? James Baboli wrote: [quote=afkalt]I would like to see logi changes that make sense, and don't kill my preferred gameplay style I don't mind changes as long as it does not change the way I do things... but you can nerf every one else thanks.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 163	Posted - 2014.10.24 21:50:43 - [62] - Quote Tappits wrote: James Baboli wrote: I would like to see logi changes that make sense, and don't kill my preferred gameplay style I don't mind changes as long as it does not change the way I do things... but you can nerf every one else thanks. Eh, so long as the content is theoretially accessible with t2 logi and t2 or pirate BS and t2 fits, I don't care. If it isn't then I have problems with it,. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 63	Posted - 2014.10.24 22:37:26 - [63] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Tappits wrote: James Baboli wrote: I would like to see logi changes that make sense, and don't kill my preferred gameplay style I don't mind changes as long as it does not change the way I do things... but you can nerf every one else thanks. Eh, so long as the content is theoretially accessible with t2 logi and t2 or pirate BS and t2 fits, I don't care. If it isn't then I have problems with it,. So if they make it so its better to run them in lets say a gang of hacs rather than a BS? what will you do?
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 165	Posted - 2014.10.24 23:40:07 - [64] - Quote Tappits wrote: James Baboli wrote: Tappits wrote: James Baboli wrote: I would like to see logi changes that make sense, and don't kill my preferred gameplay style I don't mind changes as long as it does not change the way I do things... but you can nerf every one else thanks. Eh, so long as the content is theoretially accessible with t2 logi and t2 or pirate BS and t2 fits, I don't care. If it isn't then I have problems with it,. So if they make it so its better to run them in lets say a gang of hacs rather than a BS? what will you do? I would fly HACs. If the PvE content has a lower barrier to entry, and is not suicidally dangerous to run with mostly t2 fits, I would have no issue with anything proposed. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Things I support: Channel links directly from tab. Tech 3 battleships. Brains over blobs.
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 30	Posted - 2014.11.04 21:06:25 - [65] - Quote Things i love about EVE. 1. the guy that says dont touch logi because it will hurt incursions. this is the same guy who says yes nerf capitals!!!! turn eve into the L.A. Freeway online. (really we tryed to move 60 dreads today through gates and it was comical.) i say you took my capitals away CCP should make you have to fit more than a invul on your BATTLESHIP to fight 50 other BATTLESHIPS. 2. people are so freaked out about the thought of changing logi that it must be a good idea. i have flown logi for years and as i said before i would like the logi world to get a shake up. we are changing all these different aspects of eve why not i mean we all know how OP HICs where right they got a look why not logi. ( if you dont see the humor in that your a moron.) to CCP I say. Thank you for phebe or as i like to call it TRAFFIC JAM Online. (hope your looking into that whole 40 man roam causes TIDI issue.) now lets look at not only logi but recons and for gods sake ishtars. (you know ishtars thats the cruiser sized hull with the frig sized sig and the battle cruser sized tank with the battle ship sized weapons.)
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 208	Posted - 2014.11.04 21:27:16 - [66] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: Things i love about EVE. 1. the guy that says dont touch logi because it will hurt incursions. this is the same guy who says yes nerf capitals!!!! turn eve into the L.A. Freeway online. (really we tryed to move 60 dreads today through gates and it was comical.) i say you took my capitals away CCP should make you have to fit more than a invul on your BATTLESHIP to fight 50 other BATTLESHIPS. Its more like 16 other battleships, a handfull (<20) of cruisers and a handful of frigates (again <20) and the one or two communities that do run this content with a single invuln on their battleships run hugely expensive deadspace invulns, rigs and a damage control, as well as an LSE, along with a logi percentage that would make most corps blanch, running as high as 1 logi for every 3 battleships, as well as a pair of perfect boosters covering all 4 flavors of links. For this sort of investment and organization, not to mention the high standards of logi in these communities, its not unthinkable to be able to run high end content with fairly light tank. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
Antillie Sa'Kan Forging Industries Silent Infinity 716	Posted - 2014.11.04 21:48:36 - [67] - Quote James Baboli wrote: baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. If there was a way to do that without nerfing high end PvE into the ground, I would agree with you right now. PvE content can be re-balanced to accommodate any changes to logi. Incursions could use a bump up in difficulty or a nerf in rewards anyway.
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 30	Posted - 2014.11.04 21:50:22 - [68] - Quote maybe i am wrong but i was under the impression the fit for a shield vindi is [Vindicator, New Setup 1] Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Damage Control II Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier Core X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II [empty rig slot] please correct me if im wrong about this fit but i dont see a LSE. and last i checked the only cruser on field is the logi and frigs pay no role at all. and since we are talking about logi. how about the scimi fit they run. as i recall they have almost 0 tank and just run remote links? i think they run a rig. now how is that not a little broken. if you are to argue that they spend so much time and effert with all this money they spend on fits all im gonna do is log in my super and titan and say but but but so did I. and yes im butt hurt about my toys but its ok im sure CCP will figure something out till then its time to fly ishtars. you know the ishtar its the cruser sized hull with t2 resists with a frig sized sig battle ship sized guns and a battle cruser tank that can hit anywhere on the field.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 208	Posted - 2014.11.04 21:56:44 - [69] - Quote Antillie Sa'Kan wrote: James Baboli wrote: baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. If there was a way to do that without nerfing high end PvE into the ground, I would agree with you right now. PvE content can be re-balanced to accommodate any changes to logi. Incursions could use a bump up in difficulty or a nerf in rewards anyway. Why? Let us look at what happens to those who try to run incursions without the acquired knowledge locked up in the communities and the theorycrafting done mostly in private in those communities. They die horribly. The highsec incursion communities however, have reduced them to a formula through massive work and deep theory-crafting and way more losses of things being tested than one wants to admit (mostly in the early days, but continuing through now). The ships are setup in such a way as to run these sites optimally, and FCs in incursions typically have deep knowledge of arcance mechanics found in few other places, like various forms of E-wars and the aggression mechanics, and use these to make their fleets safe. Tanks are well under the point where it is economical to gank them in many communities, and the only issue is that gankers haven't formed up to do so, or haven't effectively figured out when and where ships will be pinned down by rats for them. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 30	Posted - 2014.11.04 22:00:09 - [70] - Quote point is that incursain ans mission runners will adapt just as low and nullsec pvp players will. we need a change. and since ccp is into making changes that feel like pulling teeth. why not look at the logi. i would love some new ideas that people have. what do u think logi should be? BTW i love the idea of a drone based logi for gallent. that would be a really nice add. and fall in with the race. or maybe we can make ishtar logi!! you know the ishtar its the cruiser sized hull with t2 resists that has the battle ship sized guns the frig sized sig and the battle cruser sized tank that can hit anyplace on the field.

James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 208	Posted - 2014.11.04 22:02:52 - [71] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: snipped dual Pithum A vindi please correct me if im wrong about this fit but i dont see a LSE. and last i checked the only cruser on field is the logi and frigs pay no role at all. and since we are talking about logi. how about the scimi fit they run. as i recall they have almost 0 tank and just run remote links? i think they run a rig. now how is that not a little broken. if you are to argue that they spend so much time and effert with all this money they spend on fits all im gonna do is log in my super and titan and say but but but so did I. This is a 3-4 billion isk vindicator, with not 1 invuln, but 2, both of them priced around a billion isk, a damage control and a rig. This is not the single invuln setup that was being discussed, which is almost entirely an ISN and Helix thing and is run with a large shield extender. As for scimitars, most communities put a damage control and 5 links on the vanguard scimitars, where the opposition is 5-8 cruisers or 2 cruisers and 1 battleship and a handful of frigates. On an unshiny HQ scimitar, there is typically 2 t2 invulns and an afterburner, allowing speed tank and high resists, as they naturally take shameless advantage of the fairly flat t2 minmatar resists, which are highest in the areas which they have the best natural resists. On the other hand, no one runs a shield rig on scimitars. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 30	Posted - 2014.11.04 22:04:11 - [72] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Cr Turist wrote: snipped dual Pithum A vindi please correct me if im wrong about this fit but i dont see a LSE. and last i checked the only cruser on field is the logi and frigs pay no role at all. and since we are talking about logi. how about the scimi fit they run. as i recall they have almost 0 tank and just run remote links? i think they run a rig. now how is that not a little broken. if you are to argue that they spend so much time and effert with all this money they spend on fits all im gonna do is log in my super and titan and say but but but so did I. This is a 3-4 billion isk vindicator, with not 1 invuln, but 2, both of them priced around a billion isk, a damage control and a rig. This is not the single invuln setup that was being discussed, which is almost entirely an ISN and Helix thing and is run with a large shield extender. As for scimitars, most communities put a damage control and 5 links on the vanguard scimitars, where the opposition is 5-8 cruisers or 2 cruisers and 1 battleship and a handful of frigates. On an unshiny HQ scimitar, there is typically 2 t2 invulns and an afterburner, allowing speed tank and high resists, as they naturally take shameless advantage of the fairly flat t2 minmatar resists, which are highest in the areas which they have the best natural resists. On the other hand, no one runs a shield rig on scimitars. i had hopes you were gonna stop the madness but i see thats not gonna happen.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 208	Posted - 2014.11.04 22:05:20 - [73] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: point is that incursain ans mission runners will adapt just as low and nullsec pvp players will. we need a change. and since ccp is into making changes that feel like pulling teeth. why not look at the logi. i would love some new ideas that people have. what do u think logi should be? BTW i love the idea of a drone based logi for gallent. that would be a really nice add. and fall in with the race. or maybe we can make ishtar logi!! you know the ishtar its the cruiser sized hull with t2 resists that has the battle ship sized guns the frig sized sig and the battle cruser sized tank that can hit anyplace on the field. So far, the changes proposed are changes purely to make changes, while CCP has been making changes with the intention of re-shaping the game and generating a reasonable level of balance between races, between t1 and t2, between t1 and faction, between t2 and pirate, etc. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 208	Posted - 2014.11.04 22:10:42 - [74] - Quote As I have been saying, I would love to see signature radius based logi. This means that a t2 logi ship has the hard choice of fitting large reps (which it is designed for, given the bonuses) and applying most of its reps to battleships, while smaller things have much less effect from these brute force reps, or fit mediums (possibly deadspace mediums, preserving the ability to rep about as hard as t2 larges) and apply the reps better to smaller ships, at the cost of increased cost if they use deadspace reps or lower rep power if they don't. It also means that frigate and t1 cruiser logi end up with similar stats relative to the sorts of gangs they are typically used with, and so it is mostly t2 logi being nerfed. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 30	Posted - 2014.11.04 22:11:04 - [75] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Cr Turist wrote: point is that incursain ans mission runners will adapt just as low and nullsec pvp players will. we need a change. and since ccp is into making changes that feel like pulling teeth. why not look at the logi. i would love some new ideas that people have. what do u think logi should be? BTW i love the idea of a drone based logi for gallent. that would be a really nice add. and fall in with the race. or maybe we can make ishtar logi!! you know the ishtar its the cruiser sized hull with t2 resists that has the battle ship sized guns the frig sized sig and the battle cruser sized tank that can hit anyplace on the field. So far, the changes proposed are changes purely to make changes, while CCP has been making changes with the intention of re-shaping the game and generating a reasonable level of balance between races, between t1 and t2, between t1 and faction, between t2 and pirate, etc. What? the purpose of this thread was to have people throw some ideas around about what can be done with logistics. eve is getting a overhaul m8 and everything is getting touched by putting down ideas maybe some dev on his coffee break will read this and say oo thats a cool idea we should look into that. logi needs to be changed. point blank. however i would like to see a change not a nerf maybe some added content.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 99	Posted - 2014.11.04 22:26:40 - [76] - Quote Tappits wrote: Lady Rift wrote: neuts and damps. put both on geddons. 2 un bonus damps puts a guardian with links down to 40km (OH damps) almost within geddon neut range. Why would any roaming fleet be anywhere near neut Armageddons? and why would bringing the lock ranges down on the 2 logis mean the logis are going to be within 40 km from well anything that's trying to kill them still? James Baboli wrote: [quote=afkalt]I would like to see logi changes that make sense, and don't kill my preferred gameplay style I don't mind changes as long as it does not change the way I do things... but you can nerf every one else thanks. means logis need to be closer to the fleet and thus easier to get to for neuts and what not instead of being out of range of everything. OH for 4+mins wtih 2 damps OHed everyone should roam with a geddon or 2.
Warde Guildencrantz TunDraGon Cynosural Field Theory. 1073	Posted - 2014.11.04 22:32:22 - [77] - Quote baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. i'd say what we need is a stacking penalty (I'm talking for large scale fights) on focus firing so fights are not a game of checkers and the mechanics of wings and squads would actually matter forcing logi to be spread and more difficult to do, as well as firing. But this would never happen. TunDraGon Director ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us My ship fits
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 30	Posted - 2014.11.04 22:37:04 - [78] - Quote the stacking idea is interesting. personally i would like to see more options for logistics ships. a couple new hulls would be really cool and give people the option to change things up. T2 logi frigs soo need to be a thing. with the changes in movement roaming is gonna be a key way to get fights once again. a scimi has little to no issue keeping up with a cruiser or above fleet however you are seeing more and more frig and destroyer based fleets these days. i think a cool little logi frig to complement those fleets would be pritty cool. ofc you would have to limit its range and ehp but i think having a alternative to a burst would be nice.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 208	Posted - 2014.11.04 23:08:39 - [79] - Quote Warde Guildencrantz wrote: baltec1 wrote: What we need is something like stacking penalties on logi to end the unkillable fleets. i'd say what we need is a stacking penalty (I'm talking for large scale fights) on focus firing so fights are not a game of checkers and the mechanics of wings and squads would actually matter forcing logi to be spread and more difficult to do, as well as firing. But this would never happen. What level of stacking penalty? I think one where through about 4-5 logi (16-25 reps) the penalty is fairly negligible and rewards strongly having logi in a small gang, but becomes very severe over 14-16 logi on the same target (56-80 reps) makes it more possible to kill ships in medium gangs, and to kill ships other than through alpha or getting out of logi range in fleet fights. (note, this change would hurt incursions, so those saying I won't accept any change that hurts them can eat it, it just doesn't make them impossible) I also would like to see capital reps reduced in how they apply on subcaps, but cannot find a good method of doing so other than a similar mechanism for signature radius, but this just makes MWDs a much larger part of catching reps, etc. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships


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