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I'm training for Carrier, but can fighters hit fast Assault Frig...

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Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 4282	Posted - 2014.10.28 03:29:14 - [31] - Quote A web bonused ship (there are several to choose from) will do more for a single dreadnought than a carrier. But then a single dreadnought is generally a lossmail waiting to happen.
somedudeinaship Republic University Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2014.10.28 05:03:27 - [32] - Quote Make sure to use all faction module fittings for your ship. The really really nice ones!
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 503	Posted - 2014.10.28 06:04:39 - [33] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Quote: I embrace the tears. If I lose it I lose it. I want to have fun, not pay $10 a month to 'play it safe' You have the right mentality... but you are clearly not ready. Stick to smaller ships for the time being and attach yourself to people who actually do use capitals. After all... you don't want to end up like this guy. Quote: I just want to know how to avoid those automatic defeats in skirmishes. The tricks are... - plan - have allies - plan - don't put all your eggs in one basket - plan that your plan will go horribly wrong. edit: Quote: Well actually I plan to use it to support my friend who will be in a Dreadnaught. I KNOW he won't be able to hit small things. I just want to make sure I can get the little enemies while leaving the killing of battleships and bigger things to him. A dreadnought can't hit a battleship unless both are standing still and/or the battleship is webbed by 2 or 3x. A carrier can't really deal with smaller ships unless it completely gives up its primary role as a giant repair ship... in which case, it won't survive against anything battleship sized and up. I really hate to burst your bubble... but again, you are looking at ships that pretty much require fleet support from other frigates and battleships to perform well. That killmail made me loss SP. Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 769	Posted - 2014.10.28 06:38:07 - [34] - Quote Quote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. That's actually one of the best realizations a new player can have and it's certainly not sad. EVE is built to be a game where ships are divided to roles rather than firepower. Think about it like this - what would be the point of 300+ ship types in the game if there was a clear progression from smaller ships to bigger ones? It would only make an "end game" situation which is not that interesting. EVE is all about variety and choices. Quote: Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Price of the modules and their capability is not a guaranteed win in most situations - and that's a good thing. Sure, the expensive fit can get you that bleeding edge advantage in a tight fight, but only if you did everything else in the fight good. Think of it like this - if you give a Lamborghini to a 70 years old suburban grandma, the car has the potential to be extremely powerful but it all depends on the skill of the driver. The real design issue that many other games suffer from is the complete opposite philosophy - having a player with more money than brains own on the field just because he has the best gear. Quote: Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. Well, not exactly. Sure, you can't win in all situations, but that's the main point of the game. First, have a look at this (old but still good) solo (and some small gang) battleship PvP video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0FdO7pjMkY After watching it, do you still think that battleships are underpowered? By the way, there are many BS video out there, but I like this one because it shows that expensive fit is not that important (that whole fit costs about 500 mil... maybe even less now since the price drop of shield faction modules). What is important, however, is timing, tactics, positioning on the field and place where you choose to have a fight. Then comes shield management, bait tanking, capacitor management,... and after all that is done properly, more expensive modules would play a role. Battleships can certainly hit smaller targets, even the smallest ones. You just have to know how and when to approach and deal with them. Regarding battleships vs bigger ships: battleships are the biggest sub-capital ships and the only ones bigger belong to capital type. Capital ships are mainly designed and used for territory warfare (I didn't say sovereignty because they are used in lowsec for FW, POS and POCO warfare as well). You are not meant to engage a capital ship solo and they are not meant to be flown without sub-capital support. So, the theoretical 1vs1 battleship vs capital is very rare, if it ever happened. Multiple battleships in a fleet, however, have many advantages over capitals, including but not limited to: higher speed, better agility, better tracking and with some fits even higher firepower. Quote: I'm worried I'll have the same issues with a Carrier and want to learn about it before I fully commit the time and isk. Firstly, can fighters hit fast assault frigates? Is there something I can do to make SURE they can? Because if I get tackled and killed by 3 standard-fitted cheap ships while in a Carrier, I'm not sure I'd want to keep going like that. I get it if lots of ships are creative and organized and they kill me. I just want them to have to work harder than that haha. Carriers have a logistics and support role. They were not designed to be flown solo, although many inexperienced nullsec ratters tend to think so with hilarious killmails as a result. The main roles of a carrier are: shield repair for those who have shield rep bonuses. It's used mainly for repairing a damaged POS or in-space infrastructure elements; transferring fitted ships during deployment preparations. A carrier has a special bay where you can place fitted ships and transfer them to the staging system of whatever operation your corporation is engaged in; A carrier can fit a special Triage module which is specifically designed for it. Triage fitted carriers are used as remote repair support in mid-size engagements or as support to supercapitals. They are also used as sacrifice to save the supercapitals; Combat fitted carriers are mainly used in large numbers. There is a fleet doctrine called "Slowcats" that proved to be very effective way of using combat carriers. Google a bit about it and see what you can learn. as a remote repair support in capital escalation PvE sites in wormholes (the sites are actually designed for capital ship use and have special spawns if capital ships are present on the field); Some players use carriers to rat in 0.0 space. They often end up on the wrong side of a killmail and have been for years a source of amusement for general player population. Generally speaking, a carrier is a social ship and designed for individuals that participate in groups that can utilize them. If you prefer small scale and solo PvP it would be smart to consider whether you have a use for a capital ship. They can be useful in small groups, but it really depends of your in-game goals and style of play. For example, building a carrier yourself in a small class wormhole system held by your corp (since they have too much mass to enter some of the lower level W-Space system) can provide your small group with a great tactical advantage over whoever wants to hunt you in your home system, since the only way to have a carrier in, for example C1 class wormhole system, is to build one on site. I hope this wall of text helps you at least a bit o.0
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 769	Posted - 2014.10.28 06:50:52 - [35] - Quote Oh.. and I almost forgot.... No, carriers are not designed to be very effective against assault frigates. Theoretically, you could deal with them with neuts and webs, but your main concern when tackled by AFs would not be AFs themselves, but rather Cynosural field generators (obligatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKviRpvGXBs&feature=player_detailpage#t=55 ) fitted to them and what's waiting on the other side o.0
Baneken Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 341	Posted - 2014.10.28 06:52:05 - [36] - Quote It goes for a RL as well where USS Cole was almost sunk by two guys in a dingy while being refuelled at the harbour. Anyway as it's has been said many times over a lone capital is a dead capital and they die in WH all the time and even more so in low / null sec. Carrier is a logistic ship, yes it has fighters but those are more scare then an actual threat. Same goes for dreads that are literally the linchpin of capitals since their main stay is to sit and die while in siege.
virm pasuul Mine 'N' Refine Yulai Federation 177	Posted - 2014.10.28 12:00:27 - [37] - Quote OP you do realise this is a multiplayer game right? Playing it like a single player game can have dire consequences if the other guy brings friends and you don't. The whole ship and module system is designed to be a much more complicated version of rock paper scissors. It is very deliberate design that no one ship fit works for every circumstance. To know what to fit you need to know what situation you will be facing. it for the wrong situation and expect it to go badly. I agree with other in this thread, you have proved you are not ready for a carrier, concentrate on what you are ready for.
Mike Adoulin Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters 960	Posted - 2014.10.28 12:08:33 - [38] - Quote Your best defense, OP, from AssFrigs is having an escort of buddies either in Ishkurs.......or Ishtars. Altho if you want to go cheap a group of neut Domi's are also truly evil as well. Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 8767	Posted - 2014.10.28 12:50:18 - [39] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. I translate this as "why my big ship no have I-Win button???" In the distant past, Battleships were 'solopwnmobiles', so good at killing everything that the game became Battleships Online for a time. CCP fixed this by making big guns crap at shooting smaller targets, meaning the big ship either had to fit differently (using things like webs and/or target painters or in the case of some guns, range and transversal) OR needed support from other ships/players. Battleships are fine once you understand why they are the way they are.
Don Pera Saissore 15	Posted - 2014.10.28 15:17:51 - [40] - Quote Dude stay away from bigger ships for now, you shouldn't fly what you cant replace. That means if you cant earn enough isk ingame to cover your loss then don't undock. Pimping ships wont help you if you don't know how to use them properly. You cant buy experience with money, you have to earn it like the rest of us.

Bastion Arzi Mortis Angelus The Kadeshi 155	Posted - 2014.10.28 15:20:09 - [41] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. I'm worried I'll have the same issues with a Carrier and want to learn about it before I fully commit the time and isk. Firstly, can fighters hit fast assault frigates? Is there something I can do to make SURE they can? Because if I get tackled and killed by 3 standard-fitted cheap ships while in a Carrier, I'm not sure I'd want to keep going like that. I get it if lots of ships are creative and organized and they kill me. I just want them to have to work harder than that haha. this is why im staying subcap for the foreseeable future
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 800	Posted - 2014.10.28 16:49:20 - [42] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: someone im guessing lost a shiny ship to a frigate A frigate won't be able to break the tank of a carrier. Someone ran the numbers on what you would need to neut out a carrier recently, essentially it was 2 or 3 armageddons, or 1 Armageddon and 1 bhaalgorrn in order to break its cap and self repping power. Yaay!!!!
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 800	Posted - 2014.10.28 16:53:18 - [43] - Quote Bastion Arzi wrote: Rucia Laraan wrote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. I'm worried I'll have the same issues with a Carrier and want to learn about it before I fully commit the time and isk. Firstly, can fighters hit fast assault frigates? Is there something I can do to make SURE they can? Because if I get tackled and killed by 3 standard-fitted cheap ships while in a Carrier, I'm not sure I'd want to keep going like that. I get it if lots of ships are creative and organized and they kill me. I just want them to have to work harder than that haha. this is why im staying subcap for the foreseeable future This is not a design flaw. There is no dedicated progression (ie battleships are not inherently better than a frigate). There are options and variety. In that sense, that battleships aren't the alpha doctrine for everything, and smaller ships matter more than large ships if you have a swarm of them, snows that there is a balance for the game. In just about every game, a level 5 wizard loses to a level 90 wizard. There is nothing you can do about that, even if you bring 50 level 5 wizards, there is nothing. In eve, a group of frigates can destroy a battleship. Capitals and supers are another matter. Yaay!!!!
Elusive Panda Tactical Grace Inc. Nerfed Alliance Go Away 78	Posted - 2014.10.28 17:27:46 - [44] - Quote In EvE, Bigger is not better. You need to use the right tool for the right job. You're trying to use an ICBM to lit a match. A destroyer will be infinitely better at killing frigates than a carrier, for a fraction of the price. You cannot just buy the "best ship" and go out rolling everyone like you would in a full gladiator warlock vs a warlock in blues. If you take out a carrier solo or even with a friend in a dreadnought, you WILL get tackled, dropped and killed. Then posted on reddit and laughed at. Don't be that guy.
Rucia Laraan Triton Engineering 1	Posted - 2014.10.28 18:41:56 - [45] - Quote Lots of good info here. In the end I will go for the carrier just because it will be fun to have a carrier. I will plan to go out with my corp buddies though, in different sized ships. I now know how important it is to have versatility in your fleet. I plan to use it however I can and learn as I go. I'll play it safe at first and slowly got for bigger rewards at higher risks. The first time I take out my carrier will be in dead space with the protection of my entire corporation :) Thank you all for the info! Even those who want to feed on my inexperience in game (talking about locator agents, haha) are painting a picture for me on what I need to watch out for and how to learn to protect my ass. I love feeling the sting of loss in games. X-COM, hardcore-mode dungeon crawlers, and other games that punish death he most are the most fun to play. It's the fact that I try to avoid the death that makes the death such a stimulating concept. Overall, I love the design of the game. There is beauty is it's complexity. While I think there are imbalances, it is on me to adapt to them, which I suppose is what makes the game balanced in the end. Thanks for the info, and to those who want to kill me, come get me! :)
Nerath Naaris Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy 900	Posted - 2014.10.28 20:52:59 - [46] - Quote Don-¦t fear the Assault Frigate, fear the mighty Interceptor! Forum-unbanned since 2011.10.20.
Pine Marten Galaxy Eaters The Explicit Alliance 80	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:27:38 - [47] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Lots of good info here. In the end I will go for the carrier just because it will be fun to have a carrier. I will plan to go out with my corp buddies though, in different sized ships. I now know how important it is to have versatility in your fleet. I plan to use it however I can and learn as I go. I'll play it safe at first and slowly got for bigger rewards at higher risks. The first time I take out my carrier will be in dead space with the protection of my entire corporation :) Thank you all for the info! Even those who want to feed on my inexperience in game (talking about locator agents, haha) are painting a picture for me on what I need to watch out for and how to learn to protect my ass. I love feeling the sting of loss in games. X-COM, hardcore-mode dungeon crawlers, and other games that punish death he most are the most fun to play. It's the fact that I try to avoid the death that makes the death such a stimulating concept. Overall, I love the design of the game. There is beauty is it's complexity. While I think there are imbalances, it is on me to adapt to them, which I suppose is what makes the game balanced in the end. Thanks for the info, and to those who want to kill me, come get me! :) EvE does have a hardcore mode. It's called "Don't update your clone"
Harrison Tato Yamato Holdings 178	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:43:50 - [48] - Quote Some interesting historical reading on the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_York_(90)
Vald Tegor Empyrean Guard Tactical Narcotics Team 148	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:55:30 - [49] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Quote: I embrace the tears. If I lose it I lose it. I want to have fun, not pay $10 a month to 'play it safe' You have the right mentality... but you are clearly not ready. Stick to smaller ships for the time being and attach yourself to people who actually do use capitals. After all... you don't want to end up like this guy in a mining carrier killed by ventures. I highly doubt the OP has the game knowledge, or the friends necessary to go into a C3 wormhole, steal a Thanatos, and insurance fraud it into that quality of a lolmail. (you can't get capitals out of a C3 you see)
Rucia Laraan Triton Engineering 2	Posted - 2014.10.28 22:18:56 - [50] - Quote I don't have that much knowledge, but you'd think people on the forums of a game with a slowly dying population would seek to encourage play instead of simply telling someone how little they know. Eve is the most complex game I've ever seen. I know that I am unfamiliar with about 90% of the game's content. That's why I'm here... It's not news that I'm a noob. I should appreciate that it probably makes some people feel better to tell me that, but it is known :)

Cancel Align NOW Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 140	Posted - 2014.10.29 01:26:50 - [51] - Quote Phoenix Jones wrote: Bastion Arzi wrote: Rucia Laraan wrote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. I'm worried I'll have the same issues with a Carrier and want to learn about it before I fully commit the time and isk. Firstly, can fighters hit fast assault frigates? Is there something I can do to make SURE they can? Because if I get tackled and killed by 3 standard-fitted cheap ships while in a Carrier, I'm not sure I'd want to keep going like that. I get it if lots of ships are creative and organized and they kill me. I just want them to have to work harder than that haha. this is why im staying subcap for the foreseeable future This is not a design flaw. There is no dedicated progression (ie battleships are not inherently better than a frigate). There are options and variety. In that sense, that battleships aren't the alpha doctrine for everything, and smaller ships matter more than large ships if you have a swarm of them, snows that there is a balance for the game. In just about every game, a level 5 wizard loses to a level 90 wizard. There is nothing you can do about that, even if you bring 50 level 5 wizards, there is nothing. In eve, a group of frigates can destroy a battleship. Capitals and supers are another matter. TL;DR Eve is not the card game 500 it is paper scissor rock.


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