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Rucia Laraan Triton Engineering 0	Posted - 2014.10.27 17:52:51 - [1] - Quote Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. I'm worried I'll have the same issues with a Carrier and want to learn about it before I fully commit the time and isk. Firstly, can fighters hit fast assault frigates? Is there something I can do to make SURE they can? Because if I get tackled and killed by 3 standard-fitted cheap ships while in a Carrier, I'm not sure I'd want to keep going like that. I get it if lots of ships are creative and organized and they kill me. I just want them to have to work harder than that haha.
xXxMLG420sw4gxXx Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2014.10.27 17:55:08 - [2] - Quote Fighters have hard time against cruisers, let alone against AFs. Carriers are more of a logistics platform rather than a standalone pwnboat
Rowells Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans 1566	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:01:08 - [3] - Quote use scout drones
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 796	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:08:13 - [4] - Quote A fighter bay can hold a few hundred drones. A fleet of warriors should do. If you are tackled by a af though, you have bigger problems than you think you do. Yaay!!!!
Cynadore 3 R Corporation 3	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:20:31 - [5] - Quote Heavy neuts. Offset your cycles. Then set your drones on him. That's the only way a single carrier can deal with smaller ships. You'd better hope he doesn't have a warp disruptor with more range than your neuts though, otherwise he'll keep you pinned while his buddies arrive.
Rucia Laraan Triton Engineering 0	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:23:35 - [6] - Quote Heavy Neuts? is that short for something or is that the name of a drone type?
Findell Ronuken Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:26:18 - [7] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. I'm worried I'll have the same issues with a Carrier and want to learn about it before I fully commit the time and isk. Firstly, can fighters hit fast assault frigates? Is there something I can do to make SURE they can? Because if I get tackled and killed by 3 standard-fitted cheap ships while in a Carrier, I'm not sure I'd want to keep going like that. I get it if lots of ships are creative and organized and they kill me. I just want them to have to work harder than that haha. A Heavy Neut can reach out ot about 24km easily on a carrier thats the limit usually on a AF Also a flight of 9-10 warrior II's will handle them nicely. Some battleships can hit smaller targets but yeah battleships arent for solo pvp. The largest thing you should be flying for solo pvp are the tier 3 battle cruisers like talos and such.
Gaan Cathal Angry Mustellid The Periphery 12	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:54:33 - [8] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Heavy Neuts? is that short for something or is that the name of a drone type? Wait, you've got as far as thinking about training for a Carrier - apparently in a PVP context - and you don't know what Capacitor Neutralisers are?
Jessica Duranin Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 279	Posted - 2014.10.27 19:07:18 - [9] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Heavy Neuts? is that short for something or is that the name of a drone type? Duuude, you really shouldn't go anywhere near a carrier for now. Learn about basic mechanics first, then learn what a carrier actually is and what they are used for and if you then still feel the need for a carrier THEN you should train for one. EDIT: Your killboard is funny. xD
Rucia Laraan Triton Engineering 1	Posted - 2014.10.27 19:30:21 - [10] - Quote I do know of cap neutralizers. I just hadn't heard them called neuts before. And yes, I've been unfortunate, as shown by my killboard :) I knew I was likely to lose my ships when I put them in harms way. I did it as a learning experience. Expensive, but invaluable lessons indeed.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 6415	Posted - 2014.10.27 19:31:00 - [11] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Nope. It was done on purpose. Otherwise you would have a meta where there is no reason to use anything smaller or less expensive (like in most other MMOs). Rucia Laraan wrote: Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. 3 or 4 battleships that know what they are doing can take down a carrier or dreadnought... much the same way 3 or 4 cruisers can do against a battleship... or 3 or 4 frigates against a cruiser. Then again... larger ships do have the advantage of having more and better fitting options to counter smaller vessels... though, that usually comes at the cost of being effective against ships of the same size. Rucia Laraan wrote: I'm worried I'll have the same issues with a Carrier and want to learn about it before I fully commit the time and isk. Firstly, can fighters hit fast assault frigates? Is there something I can do to make SURE they can? Because if I get tackled and killed by 3 standard-fitted cheap ships while in a Carrier, I'm not sure I'd want to keep going like that. - No. Fighters can't even hit a frigate standing still once they start orbiting it. In fact... you should not be using Fighters much, if at all. You want to stick with regular drones (Lights, Heavies, and Sentries in particular). - Target painters and Omni-Directional Tracking Links (with tracking script loaded) can increase the ability for fighters to hit stuff... but they'll still be quite terrible against ships smaller than a cruiser. - Unless you completely fail at properly fitting a carrier, it should be impossible for 3 frigates to even break through your shields (even if you are armor tanked). However, 3 frigates CAN keep you pinned down indefinitely unless you have specifically fit to counter them (which will come at the cost of your ability to do other things). Also... keep in mind that in EVE larger ships tend to require more support than smaller ships. Capital ships lies on the extreme edge of that line of thought... being almost completely dependent on smaller support ships to ensure their effectiveness and survival. What capitals give in return is a massive force multiplier either in the form of anti-structure and large-ship-murderboats (Supercarrier, Dreadnoughts, Titan) or "staying power" bonuses and repair systems (Carriers, Titans). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. "How did you veterans start?"
Jessica Duranin Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 281	Posted - 2014.10.27 19:38:06 - [12] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: And yes, I've been unfortunate, as shown by my killboard :) It's not so much that you lost ships (everyone loses ships) but the type and fit of ships you lost. That coupled with your desire to fly a carrier looks like "I'm going to fit the biggest and most expensive ship I can sit in and then go PWN everyone!!!11". That's just not how EvE works.
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 108	Posted - 2014.10.27 19:45:49 - [13] - Quote I'd link my AB Harpy loss to two supers with fighters (the only hostiles on field except for a Moros which did 0 damage), BEFORE the Kronos drone changes. I'd also link my MWD Sabre loss to two supers with fighters on a completely different occasion, long before that. Target painters and webs will go a long way in increasing the effectiveness of fighters against small ships, and with the Kronos changes they're even better now than they were back then. So not really buying the argument that fighters are awful against subcaps. The only real downside is that they're slow. Alt of [redacted on advice from a reputable internet spaceships lawyer]
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 17374	Posted - 2014.10.27 19:50:33 - [14] - Quote Your fighters will barely do ** to an AF unless its webbed to and TPed to hell. On the other hand.. 10 Hobbies would utterly the out an assault frig... Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?**
Ralph King-Griffin Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 6215	Posted - 2014.10.27 19:58:15 - [15] - Quote someone im guessing lost a shiny ship to a frigate "I'm also quite confident that you are laughing and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers." =]I[=
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 6416	Posted - 2014.10.27 20:05:48 - [16] - Quote Primary This Rifter wrote: So not really buying the argument that fighters are awful against subcaps. The only real downside is that they're slow. Fighters will generally land their initial volley if they are heading towards a target. However, once they settle into a stable orbit around a target their speed generally overcomes their tracking. They also have a signature resolution of 400 (battleship class) which just makes their tracking against smaller targets even worse. Here is another way to see fighters; they are basically sentry drones with engines and a tiny range. Have you ever tried to hit a target orbiting your sentry drones at close range? Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. "How did you veterans start?"
J'Poll CDG Playgrounds 4741	Posted - 2014.10.27 20:09:31 - [17] - Quote OP. With these questions and track record.... Please get into a carrier, ASAP but let me know when you do and where. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Rucia Laraan Triton Engineering 1	Posted - 2014.10.27 20:10:39 - [18] - Quote Jessica Duranin wrote: Rucia Laraan wrote: And yes, I've been unfortunate, as shown by my killboard :) It's not so much that you lost ships (everyone loses ships) but the type and fit of ships you lost. That coupled with your desire to fly a carrier looks like "I'm going to fit the biggest and most expensive ship I can sit in and then go PWN everyone!!!11". That's just not how EvE works. Well actually I plan to use it to support my friend who will be in a Dreadnaught. I KNOW he won't be able to hit small things. I just want to make sure I can get the little enemies while leaving the killing of battleships and bigger things to him.
Ralph King-Griffin Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 6216	Posted - 2014.10.27 20:17:02 - [19] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Jessica Duranin wrote: Rucia Laraan wrote: And yes, I've been unfortunate, as shown by my killboard :) It's not so much that you lost ships (everyone loses ships) but the type and fit of ships you lost. That coupled with your desire to fly a carrier looks like "I'm going to fit the biggest and most expensive ship I can sit in and then go PWN everyone!!!11". That's just not how EvE works. Well actually I plan to use it to support my friend who will be in a Dreadnaught. I KNOW he won't be able to hit small things. I just want to make sure I can get the little enemies while leaving the killing of battleships and bigger things to him. sounds like you need another friend/s to take care of the little enemies "I'm also quite confident that you are laughing and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers." =]I[=
E-2C Hawkeye State War Academy Caldari State 690	Posted - 2014.10.27 20:18:05 - [20] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Heavy Neuts? is that short for something or is that the name of a drone type? Neuts steal his capacitor. No power no warp disruptor. Forgive me for saying so but if you dont know what neuts are maybe you should hold off on the carrier? Or you may provide a kill mail and content for others.
Rucia Laraan Triton Engineering 1	Posted - 2014.10.27 20:25:07 - [21] - Quote E-2C Hawkeye wrote: Rucia Laraan wrote: Heavy Neuts? is that short for something or is that the name of a drone type? Neuts steal his capacitor. No power no warp disruptor. Forgive me for saying so but if you dont know what neuts are maybe you should hold off on the carrier? Or you may provide a kill mail and content for others. Others said the same thing earlier in the forum post to me. I know about cap neutralizers but have just never heard the term "neuts" when referring to them. It's like when you're the last person to hear a common phrase in high school by random chance haha.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13717	Posted - 2014.10.27 20:29:14 - [22] - Quote You aren't ready for capitals Op, it will all end in tears. Also, don't try to make a pvp battleship cap stable. Its ironic advice coming from me but please don't do that. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Rucia Laraan Triton Engineering 1	Posted - 2014.10.27 20:34:20 - [23] - Quote I embrace the tears. If I lose it I lose it. I want to have fun, not pay $10 a month to 'play it safe'
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 6417	Posted - 2014.10.27 20:42:48 - [24] - Quote Quote: I embrace the tears. If I lose it I lose it. I want to have fun, not pay $10 a month to 'play it safe' You have the right mentality... but you are clearly not ready. Stick to smaller ships for the time being and attach yourself to people who actually do use capitals. After all... you don't want to end up like this guy. Quote: I just want to know how to avoid those automatic defeats in skirmishes. The tricks are... - plan - have allies - plan - don't put all your eggs in one basket - plan that your plan will go horribly wrong. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. "How did you veterans start?"
Jessica Duranin Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 281	Posted - 2014.10.27 20:43:37 - [25] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: I just want to know how to avoid those automatic defeats in skirmishes. By using the right ship for the job. A carrier isn't the right ship for a 2 man gang. (Neither is a dread)
Rucia Laraan Triton Engineering 1	Posted - 2014.10.27 22:20:48 - [26] - Quote What should I get for my fitting to protect against frigates? Webbers? Drone Links for Range? Cap neutralizers to help me to counter scramblers? Sentries versus Light drones with range Links?
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 11520	Posted - 2014.10.27 23:56:14 - [27] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: What should I get for my fitting to protect against frigates? Webbers? Drone Links for Range? Cap neutralizers to help me to counter scramblers? Sentries versus Light drones with range Links? A bunch of friends in carriers. Nothing else is going to deter, let alone kill, a frigate gang coming at you and your friend in his dread. You have five high slots for neuts, and a skilled pilot can ignore your neuts by timing cap boosters anyway. Consider that you were asking about fighters killing frigates. Fighters are useful against battleships and cruisers in certain cases, but absolutely useless against anything smaller. A single flight of mediums or lights is pitiful, and you'd be lucky to even kill a single frigate with them before your carrier dies. Also, it's more likely that you'll run into an Ishtar gang than into frigates. In that case, your situation will be absolutely hopeless and you'll just be a couple of free capital killmails for whoever happens to be roaming by. Twitter: @EVEAndski "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -á-á - Abrazzar
Cancel Align NOW Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 138	Posted - 2014.10.28 01:02:21 - [28] - Quote Time to brush off the locator agents.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People 606	Posted - 2014.10.28 01:32:39 - [29] - Quote A carrier is a giant repair platform used for capital brawls, large gang warfare, and infranstructure repair, nothing else. it is never used solo because it cannot defend itself well. It only survives if you have cover; trust me when i say, a carriers' arsenal is not adequate to defeat competent assault frigates, cruisers, or battlecruisers. if it were, people would be using them to PvP all the time. And you cannot repair a sieged blap dread either - immune to all remote effects. and non-sieged drad does wose damage then a cruiser. and a blap dread will not work without 2-3 webbing lokis or a vigilant. And that too requires logistics and more support. it is much much better to use a gank cruiser and a falcon, for starters. ishtar falcon, or thorax blackbird even. or sabre falcon. just dont do it.
Serene Repose 1574	Posted - 2014.10.28 03:22:02 - [30] - Quote If you throw them just right. It's all in the wrist. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 4282	Posted - 2014.10.28 03:29:14 - [31] - Quote A web bonused ship (there are several to choose from) will do more for a single dreadnought than a carrier. But then a single dreadnought is generally a lossmail waiting to happen.
somedudeinaship Republic University Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2014.10.28 05:03:27 - [32] - Quote Make sure to use all faction module fittings for your ship. The really really nice ones!
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 503	Posted - 2014.10.28 06:04:39 - [33] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Quote: I embrace the tears. If I lose it I lose it. I want to have fun, not pay $10 a month to 'play it safe' You have the right mentality... but you are clearly not ready. Stick to smaller ships for the time being and attach yourself to people who actually do use capitals. After all... you don't want to end up like this guy. Quote: I just want to know how to avoid those automatic defeats in skirmishes. The tricks are... - plan - have allies - plan - don't put all your eggs in one basket - plan that your plan will go horribly wrong. edit: Quote: Well actually I plan to use it to support my friend who will be in a Dreadnaught. I KNOW he won't be able to hit small things. I just want to make sure I can get the little enemies while leaving the killing of battleships and bigger things to him. A dreadnought can't hit a battleship unless both are standing still and/or the battleship is webbed by 2 or 3x. A carrier can't really deal with smaller ships unless it completely gives up its primary role as a giant repair ship... in which case, it won't survive against anything battleship sized and up. I really hate to burst your bubble... but again, you are looking at ships that pretty much require fleet support from other frigates and battleships to perform well. That killmail made me loss SP. Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 769	Posted - 2014.10.28 06:38:07 - [34] - Quote Quote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. That's actually one of the best realizations a new player can have and it's certainly not sad. EVE is built to be a game where ships are divided to roles rather than firepower. Think about it like this - what would be the point of 300+ ship types in the game if there was a clear progression from smaller ships to bigger ones? It would only make an "end game" situation which is not that interesting. EVE is all about variety and choices. Quote: Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Price of the modules and their capability is not a guaranteed win in most situations - and that's a good thing. Sure, the expensive fit can get you that bleeding edge advantage in a tight fight, but only if you did everything else in the fight good. Think of it like this - if you give a Lamborghini to a 70 years old suburban grandma, the car has the potential to be extremely powerful but it all depends on the skill of the driver. The real design issue that many other games suffer from is the complete opposite philosophy - having a player with more money than brains own on the field just because he has the best gear. Quote: Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. Well, not exactly. Sure, you can't win in all situations, but that's the main point of the game. First, have a look at this (old but still good) solo (and some small gang) battleship PvP video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0FdO7pjMkY After watching it, do you still think that battleships are underpowered? By the way, there are many BS video out there, but I like this one because it shows that expensive fit is not that important (that whole fit costs about 500 mil... maybe even less now since the price drop of shield faction modules). What is important, however, is timing, tactics, positioning on the field and place where you choose to have a fight. Then comes shield management, bait tanking, capacitor management,... and after all that is done properly, more expensive modules would play a role. Battleships can certainly hit smaller targets, even the smallest ones. You just have to know how and when to approach and deal with them. Regarding battleships vs bigger ships: battleships are the biggest sub-capital ships and the only ones bigger belong to capital type. Capital ships are mainly designed and used for territory warfare (I didn't say sovereignty because they are used in lowsec for FW, POS and POCO warfare as well). You are not meant to engage a capital ship solo and they are not meant to be flown without sub-capital support. So, the theoretical 1vs1 battleship vs capital is very rare, if it ever happened. Multiple battleships in a fleet, however, have many advantages over capitals, including but not limited to: higher speed, better agility, better tracking and with some fits even higher firepower. Quote: I'm worried I'll have the same issues with a Carrier and want to learn about it before I fully commit the time and isk. Firstly, can fighters hit fast assault frigates? Is there something I can do to make SURE they can? Because if I get tackled and killed by 3 standard-fitted cheap ships while in a Carrier, I'm not sure I'd want to keep going like that. I get it if lots of ships are creative and organized and they kill me. I just want them to have to work harder than that haha. Carriers have a logistics and support role. They were not designed to be flown solo, although many inexperienced nullsec ratters tend to think so with hilarious killmails as a result. The main roles of a carrier are: shield repair for those who have shield rep bonuses. It's used mainly for repairing a damaged POS or in-space infrastructure elements; transferring fitted ships during deployment preparations. A carrier has a special bay where you can place fitted ships and transfer them to the staging system of whatever operation your corporation is engaged in; A carrier can fit a special Triage module which is specifically designed for it. Triage fitted carriers are used as remote repair support in mid-size engagements or as support to supercapitals. They are also used as sacrifice to save the supercapitals; Combat fitted carriers are mainly used in large numbers. There is a fleet doctrine called "Slowcats" that proved to be very effective way of using combat carriers. Google a bit about it and see what you can learn. as a remote repair support in capital escalation PvE sites in wormholes (the sites are actually designed for capital ship use and have special spawns if capital ships are present on the field); Some players use carriers to rat in 0.0 space. They often end up on the wrong side of a killmail and have been for years a source of amusement for general player population. Generally speaking, a carrier is a social ship and designed for individuals that participate in groups that can utilize them. If you prefer small scale and solo PvP it would be smart to consider whether you have a use for a capital ship. They can be useful in small groups, but it really depends of your in-game goals and style of play. For example, building a carrier yourself in a small class wormhole system held by your corp (since they have too much mass to enter some of the lower level W-Space system) can provide your small group with a great tactical advantage over whoever wants to hunt you in your home system, since the only way to have a carrier in, for example C1 class wormhole system, is to build one on site. I hope this wall of text helps you at least a bit o.0
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 769	Posted - 2014.10.28 06:50:52 - [35] - Quote Oh.. and I almost forgot.... No, carriers are not designed to be very effective against assault frigates. Theoretically, you could deal with them with neuts and webs, but your main concern when tackled by AFs would not be AFs themselves, but rather Cynosural field generators (obligatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKviRpvGXBs&feature=player_detailpage#t=55 ) fitted to them and what's waiting on the other side o.0
Baneken Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 341	Posted - 2014.10.28 06:52:05 - [36] - Quote It goes for a RL as well where USS Cole was almost sunk by two guys in a dingy while being refuelled at the harbour. Anyway as it's has been said many times over a lone capital is a dead capital and they die in WH all the time and even more so in low / null sec. Carrier is a logistic ship, yes it has fighters but those are more scare then an actual threat. Same goes for dreads that are literally the linchpin of capitals since their main stay is to sit and die while in siege.
virm pasuul Mine 'N' Refine Yulai Federation 177	Posted - 2014.10.28 12:00:27 - [37] - Quote OP you do realise this is a multiplayer game right? Playing it like a single player game can have dire consequences if the other guy brings friends and you don't. The whole ship and module system is designed to be a much more complicated version of rock paper scissors. It is very deliberate design that no one ship fit works for every circumstance. To know what to fit you need to know what situation you will be facing. it for the wrong situation and expect it to go badly. I agree with other in this thread, you have proved you are not ready for a carrier, concentrate on what you are ready for.
Mike Adoulin Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters 960	Posted - 2014.10.28 12:08:33 - [38] - Quote Your best defense, OP, from AssFrigs is having an escort of buddies either in Ishkurs.......or Ishtars. Altho if you want to go cheap a group of neut Domi's are also truly evil as well. Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 8767	Posted - 2014.10.28 12:50:18 - [39] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. I translate this as "why my big ship no have I-Win button???" In the distant past, Battleships were 'solopwnmobiles', so good at killing everything that the game became Battleships Online for a time. CCP fixed this by making big guns crap at shooting smaller targets, meaning the big ship either had to fit differently (using things like webs and/or target painters or in the case of some guns, range and transversal) OR needed support from other ships/players. Battleships are fine once you understand why they are the way they are.
Don Pera Saissore 15	Posted - 2014.10.28 15:17:51 - [40] - Quote Dude stay away from bigger ships for now, you shouldn't fly what you cant replace. That means if you cant earn enough isk ingame to cover your loss then don't undock. Pimping ships wont help you if you don't know how to use them properly. You cant buy experience with money, you have to earn it like the rest of us.
Bastion Arzi Mortis Angelus The Kadeshi 155	Posted - 2014.10.28 15:20:09 - [41] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. I'm worried I'll have the same issues with a Carrier and want to learn about it before I fully commit the time and isk. Firstly, can fighters hit fast assault frigates? Is there something I can do to make SURE they can? Because if I get tackled and killed by 3 standard-fitted cheap ships while in a Carrier, I'm not sure I'd want to keep going like that. I get it if lots of ships are creative and organized and they kill me. I just want them to have to work harder than that haha. this is why im staying subcap for the foreseeable future
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 800	Posted - 2014.10.28 16:49:20 - [42] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: someone im guessing lost a shiny ship to a frigate A frigate won't be able to break the tank of a carrier. Someone ran the numbers on what you would need to neut out a carrier recently, essentially it was 2 or 3 armageddons, or 1 Armageddon and 1 bhaalgorrn in order to break its cap and self repping power. Yaay!!!!
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 800	Posted - 2014.10.28 16:53:18 - [43] - Quote Bastion Arzi wrote: Rucia Laraan wrote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. I'm worried I'll have the same issues with a Carrier and want to learn about it before I fully commit the time and isk. Firstly, can fighters hit fast assault frigates? Is there something I can do to make SURE they can? Because if I get tackled and killed by 3 standard-fitted cheap ships while in a Carrier, I'm not sure I'd want to keep going like that. I get it if lots of ships are creative and organized and they kill me. I just want them to have to work harder than that haha. this is why im staying subcap for the foreseeable future This is not a design flaw. There is no dedicated progression (ie battleships are not inherently better than a frigate). There are options and variety. In that sense, that battleships aren't the alpha doctrine for everything, and smaller ships matter more than large ships if you have a swarm of them, snows that there is a balance for the game. In just about every game, a level 5 wizard loses to a level 90 wizard. There is nothing you can do about that, even if you bring 50 level 5 wizards, there is nothing. In eve, a group of frigates can destroy a battleship. Capitals and supers are another matter. Yaay!!!!
Elusive Panda Tactical Grace Inc. Nerfed Alliance Go Away 78	Posted - 2014.10.28 17:27:46 - [44] - Quote In EvE, Bigger is not better. You need to use the right tool for the right job. You're trying to use an ICBM to lit a match. A destroyer will be infinitely better at killing frigates than a carrier, for a fraction of the price. You cannot just buy the "best ship" and go out rolling everyone like you would in a full gladiator warlock vs a warlock in blues. If you take out a carrier solo or even with a friend in a dreadnought, you WILL get tackled, dropped and killed. Then posted on reddit and laughed at. Don't be that guy.
Rucia Laraan Triton Engineering 1	Posted - 2014.10.28 18:41:56 - [45] - Quote Lots of good info here. In the end I will go for the carrier just because it will be fun to have a carrier. I will plan to go out with my corp buddies though, in different sized ships. I now know how important it is to have versatility in your fleet. I plan to use it however I can and learn as I go. I'll play it safe at first and slowly got for bigger rewards at higher risks. The first time I take out my carrier will be in dead space with the protection of my entire corporation :) Thank you all for the info! Even those who want to feed on my inexperience in game (talking about locator agents, haha) are painting a picture for me on what I need to watch out for and how to learn to protect my ass. I love feeling the sting of loss in games. X-COM, hardcore-mode dungeon crawlers, and other games that punish death he most are the most fun to play. It's the fact that I try to avoid the death that makes the death such a stimulating concept. Overall, I love the design of the game. There is beauty is it's complexity. While I think there are imbalances, it is on me to adapt to them, which I suppose is what makes the game balanced in the end. Thanks for the info, and to those who want to kill me, come get me! :)
Nerath Naaris Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy 900	Posted - 2014.10.28 20:52:59 - [46] - Quote Don-¦t fear the Assault Frigate, fear the mighty Interceptor! Forum-unbanned since 2011.10.20.
Pine Marten Galaxy Eaters The Explicit Alliance 80	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:27:38 - [47] - Quote Rucia Laraan wrote: Lots of good info here. In the end I will go for the carrier just because it will be fun to have a carrier. I will plan to go out with my corp buddies though, in different sized ships. I now know how important it is to have versatility in your fleet. I plan to use it however I can and learn as I go. I'll play it safe at first and slowly got for bigger rewards at higher risks. The first time I take out my carrier will be in dead space with the protection of my entire corporation :) Thank you all for the info! Even those who want to feed on my inexperience in game (talking about locator agents, haha) are painting a picture for me on what I need to watch out for and how to learn to protect my ass. I love feeling the sting of loss in games. X-COM, hardcore-mode dungeon crawlers, and other games that punish death he most are the most fun to play. It's the fact that I try to avoid the death that makes the death such a stimulating concept. Overall, I love the design of the game. There is beauty is it's complexity. While I think there are imbalances, it is on me to adapt to them, which I suppose is what makes the game balanced in the end. Thanks for the info, and to those who want to kill me, come get me! :) EvE does have a hardcore mode. It's called "Don't update your clone"
Harrison Tato Yamato Holdings 178	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:43:50 - [48] - Quote Some interesting historical reading on the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_York_(90)
Vald Tegor Empyrean Guard Tactical Narcotics Team 148	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:55:30 - [49] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Quote: I embrace the tears. If I lose it I lose it. I want to have fun, not pay $10 a month to 'play it safe' You have the right mentality... but you are clearly not ready. Stick to smaller ships for the time being and attach yourself to people who actually do use capitals. After all... you don't want to end up like this guy in a mining carrier killed by ventures. I highly doubt the OP has the game knowledge, or the friends necessary to go into a C3 wormhole, steal a Thanatos, and insurance fraud it into that quality of a lolmail. (you can't get capitals out of a C3 you see)
Rucia Laraan Triton Engineering 2	Posted - 2014.10.28 22:18:56 - [50] - Quote I don't have that much knowledge, but you'd think people on the forums of a game with a slowly dying population would seek to encourage play instead of simply telling someone how little they know. Eve is the most complex game I've ever seen. I know that I am unfamiliar with about 90% of the game's content. That's why I'm here... It's not news that I'm a noob. I should appreciate that it probably makes some people feel better to tell me that, but it is known :)
Cancel Align NOW Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 140	Posted - 2014.10.29 01:26:50 - [51] - Quote Phoenix Jones wrote: Bastion Arzi wrote: Rucia Laraan wrote: Over time I've come to a sad realization. Expensive ships are not as good as small fast ships. Expensive battleships with over a billion isk in modules still loses easily to 2 cheap assault frigates with tackling. To me it seems like a major design issue. Battleships really have no purpose against higher ships. They can't hit the small ships but they CAN be hit by large ships. Worst of both worlds. I'm worried I'll have the same issues with a Carrier and want to learn about it before I fully commit the time and isk. Firstly, can fighters hit fast assault frigates? Is there something I can do to make SURE they can? Because if I get tackled and killed by 3 standard-fitted cheap ships while in a Carrier, I'm not sure I'd want to keep going like that. I get it if lots of ships are creative and organized and they kill me. I just want them to have to work harder than that haha. this is why im staying subcap for the foreseeable future This is not a design flaw. There is no dedicated progression (ie battleships are not inherently better than a frigate). There are options and variety. In that sense, that battleships aren't the alpha doctrine for everything, and smaller ships matter more than large ships if you have a swarm of them, snows that there is a balance for the game. In just about every game, a level 5 wizard loses to a level 90 wizard. There is nothing you can do about that, even if you bring 50 level 5 wizards, there is nothing. In eve, a group of frigates can destroy a battleship. Capitals and supers are another matter. TL;DR Eve is not the card game 500 it is paper scissor rock.

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