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Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 13:45:00 - [1] BROKEN SHIPS: Flycatcher - has 1 totally usless bonus. You cant fit t2 standard launchers on that thing so small missile precision bonus is useless. Swap it to something more useful or increase grid and cpu. Nighthawk - yeah, caracal can do its job for 20 times less isk. BROKEN SKILLS: Tactical shield manipulation (RANK 4 !!!) - plz make it do something. ATM its just waste of skill training time. Shield upgrades - How much is 5% of 1 grid? ALOT? Dont think so, plz change this skill so that it reduces cpu usage instead of grid. Warhead upgrades - hell yeah, rank5 skill for 2% damage increase? Does anyone see something wrong when you look at surgical strikes 3% damage from rank4 skill? BROKEN MODULES: Ballistic control system I (II) - tech1 takes 35 cpu, tech2 40 cpu while gun damage mods take only 30 cpu (yes, t2 takes 30 allso). FoF and defender missiles - we should get more options with those things. XL shield boosters - These things take way too much cpu. Sure other races got some similar problems but i cant tell about those since im a pure caldari. Feel free to express your own ideas. Im sure i missed some things.
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 13:51:00 - [2] Also broken t2 skill progression. Fix this way: Introduce Assault Missiles Announce VERY publically that in 3months, a patch will be released in which the prequestites for t2 missiles will be increased, and if you do not have them, you will be unable to use the launchers. In that patch, once everyone has had fair warning and knows what is coming: Change the skill trees for t2 cruise to: Cruise Missile Specialisation I Cruise Missiles V Heavy Missile Specialisation IV Heavy Missiles V Standard Missile Specialisation IV Standard Missiles V Change the skill trees for t2 torps to: Torpedo Specialisation I Torpedoes V Assault Missile Specialisation IV Assault Missiles V Rocket Specialisation IV Rockets V Remove the rapid launch/sharpshooter reqs from t2 guns Laugh at the people who didn't pay attention and missed the changes
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente Does Not Compute	Posted - 2006.08.21 13:54:00 - [3] For fear of forum bannage I am going to contain my rage here As to the CPU Issue, you may find that Caldari ships as a whole tend to have more CPU to play with Defenders are being fixed afaik FoF.... Can my guns shoot while jammed ? No... Make the most of them. (Though when they decide to shoot a random non agressed targets I do feel your pain lol) Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
PeeWee Pee Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.21 13:55:00 - [4] Originally by: HippoKing Also broken t2 skill progression. Fix this way: Introduce Assault Missiles Announce VERY publically that in 3months, a patch will be released in which the prequestites for t2 missiles will be increased, and if you do not have them, you will be unable to use the launchers. In that patch, once everyone has had fair warning and knows what is coming: Change the skill trees for t2 cruise to: Cruise Missile Specialisation I Cruise Missiles V Heavy Missile Specialisation IV Heavy Missiles V Standard Missile Specialisation IV Standard Missiles V Change the skill trees for t2 torps to: Torpedo Specialisation I Torpedoes V Assault Missile Specialisation IV Assault Missiles V Rocket Specialisation IV Rockets V Remove the rapid launch/sharpshooter reqs from t2 guns Laugh at the people who didn't pay attention and missed the changes no ufcking thanks cheapo king i no trust anyone whoz make more than five posts a day on da whorum on a daily basis everyday
Stormhold FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.21 13:56:00 - [5] Edited by: Stormhold on 21/08/2006 13:57:06 Originally by: HippoKing stuff Unfair as hell, it should be so that there's "Small missiles" affecting std/rocket launchers and then specs, "Medium missiles" for heavies/assaults and "Large missiles" for torpedoes and cruises. Then again that'd be hard to fix since that'd scrap out 6 skills and add 3 new. This comes from someone who can't use t2 siege/cruises and isn't planning to be able to. In fact the change wouldn't affect my ability to use t2 at all.
PeeWee Pee Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.21 13:57:00 - [6] Originally by: Stormhold Originally by: HippoKing Also broken t2 skill progression. Fix this way: Introduce Assault Missiles Announce VERY publically that in 3months, a patch will be released in which the prequestites for t2 missiles will be increased, and if you do not have them, you will be unable to use the launchers. In that patch, once everyone has had fair warning and knows what is coming: Change the skill trees for t2 cruise to: Cruise Missile Specialisation I Cruise Missiles V Heavy Missile Specialisation IV Heavy Missiles V Standard Missile Specialisation IV Standard Missiles V Change the skill trees for t2 torps to: Torpedo Specialisation I Torpedoes V Assault Missile Specialisation IV Assault Missiles V Rocket Specialisation IV Rockets V Remove the rapid launch/sharpshooter reqs from t2 guns Laugh at the people who didn't pay attention and missed the changes Unfair as hell, it should be so that there's "Small missiles" affecting std/rocket launchers and then specs, "Medium missiles" for heavies/assaults and "Large missiles" for torpedoes and cruises. Then again that'd be hard to fix since that'd scrap out 6 skills and add 3 new. i take dat. gives me more bonii i no trust anyone whoz make more than five posts a day on da whorum on a daily basis everyday
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.21 13:58:00 - [7] I love that HK isnt afraid of being controversal though. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 13:59:00 - [8] Oh god please don't quote the whole thing Just do a quote like this: Originally by: HippoKing Really fracking long post
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:01:00 - [9] Edited by: Kamikaaazi on 21/08/2006 14:01:59 Originally by: HippoKing all that long missile skill req talk... looks fine IF we allso get atleast 3 different launchers per skill. Just like you guys got electon/ion/neutron or 75mm/125mm/150mm etc.
Deja Thoris Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:03:00 - [10] At the risk of being pedantic these arent only "caldari problems" Last I looked other ships have missiles and can shield tank. At the end of the day if this list is all the OP can come up with then the game is pretty damn well balanced.
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:05:00 - [11] Originally by: PeeWee Pee Originally by: HippoKing stuff no ufcking thanks cheapo king Ah yes, abuse. Now I see the error of my ways. You have shown me the light. Originally by: Stormhold Originally by: HippoKing stuff Unfair as hell, it should be so that there's "Small missiles" affecting std/rocket launchers and then specs, "Medium missiles" for heavies/assaults and "Large missiles" for torpedoes and cruises. Then again that'd be hard to fix since that'd scrap out 6 skills and add 3 new. This comes from someone who can't use t2 siege/cruises and isn't planning to be able to. In fact the change wouldn't affect my ability to use t2 at all. Missiles aren't meant to be identical to turrets, but at the moment, it takes a fraction of the amount of skills to use t2 cruise or torps as large guns of any kind. I'd rather see it get closer together with a slight bias towards one or the other than the massive gulf we have now). If the difference in skills was too big, maybe don't remove the rapid firing/sharpshooter skiills. And yes, I am aware I said rapid launch in the first post. Just a typo. Originally by: PeeWee Pee i take dat. gives me more bonii What benefits you isn't a good justification for balance.
Laythun Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:05:00 - [12] Originally by: HippoKing Oh god please don't quote the whole thing Just do a quote like this: Originally by: HippoKing Really fracking long post I agree with Mr King here. Change the prereq for missiles to mirro gunnery! OP caldari have more CPU, tactical shield manipulation does do something, read the description. *See You In Space Cowboy*
Chronus26 Gallente STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SKILLS: Tactical shield manipulation (RANK 4 !!!) - plz make it do something. ATM its just waste of skill training time. So training it to level 4 to use T2 sheild hardners is a waste of time? Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN MODULES: XL shield boosters - These things take way too much cpu. Thats funny, I can fit my ravens with an XL T2 booster and Torps resonably easy, much easier than fitting a Megathron... or a Domi... If you have trouble fitting one, your doing somthing horribly wrong. -----
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:08:00 - [14] Originally by: Chronus26 Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SKILLS: Tactical shield manipulation (RANK 4 !!!) - plz make it do something. ATM its just waste of skill training time. So training it to level 4 to use T2 sheild hardners is a waste of time? yes it is a waste of time since this skill doesnt give me any real bonuses.
Chronus26 Gallente STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Chronus26 Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SKILLS: Tactical shield manipulation (RANK 4 !!!) - plz make it do something. ATM its just waste of skill training time. So training it to level 4 to use T2 sheild hardners is a waste of time? yes it is a waste of time since this skill doesnt give me any real bonuses. I'd say its worth it just for the hardners, but yes maybe a more useful bonus could be applied but i'd say there are alot more things higher up on the priorities list ATM. -----
Twilight Moon Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:10:00 - [16] Edited by: Twilight Moon on 21/08/2006 14:11:34 Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SHIPS: Flycatcher - has 1 totally usless bonus. You cant fit t2 standard launchers on that thing so small missile precision bonus is useless. Swap it to something more useful or increase grid and cpu. What do you mean you can't? You can. Maybe you should rephrase that to "I can't fit as many T2 Standard Launchers on the Flycatcher as I want to".....in which case me awnser would be to tell you to buy a Caracal, and put 5x T2 Assault Launchers on it. Edit: What do you mean its "useless" when you refer to the bonus by the way? Why do you insist its useless without T2 Launchers. Fit T1 Launchers, the bonus affects all light missiles. ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Laythun Originally by: HippoKing Oh god please don't quote the whole thing Just do a quote like this: Originally by: HippoKing Really fracking long post I agree with Mr King here. Change the prereq for missiles to mirro gunnery! OP caldari have more CPU, tactical shield manipulation does do something, read the description. ooh it does? Lets release a rank 4 armor manipulation skill that prevents damage from penetrating the armor. AND heres the best part, you need it at lvl5 just to use capital armor reppers. Really useful skill, isnt it?
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Laythun Originally by: HippoKing Oh god please don't quote the whole thing Just do a quote like this: Originally by: HippoKing Really fracking long post I agree with Mr King here. Change the prereq for missiles to mirro gunnery! OP caldari have more CPU, tactical shield manipulation does do something, read the description. ooh it does? Lets release a rank 4 armor manipulation skill that prevents damage from penetrating the armor. AND heres the best part, you need it at lvl5 just to use capital armor reppers. Really useful skill, isnt it? Yes, it is if you want to fly capitals
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Twilight Moon Edited by: Twilight Moon on 21/08/2006 14:11:34 Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SHIPS: Flycatcher - has 1 totally usless bonus. You cant fit t2 standard launchers on that thing so small missile precision bonus is useless. Swap it to something more useful or increase grid and cpu. What do you mean you can't? You can. Maybe you should rephrase that to "I can't fit as many T2 Standard Launchers on the Flycatcher as I want to".....in which case me awnser would be to tell you to buy a Caracal, and put 5x T2 Assault Launchers on it. Edit: What do you mean its "useless" when you refer to the bonus by the way? Why do you insist its useless without T2 Launchers. Fit T1 Launchers, the bonus affects all light missiles. I got an alt that can use all dictors with t2 guns. I usually use heretic/eris cos of their price and slot layouts. Just trying to fit anything decent on caldari one makes me sick. I can get much better fittings on heretic than i can get on flycatcher. By "useless" i mean that its a bonus that doesnt affect rockets and since i can fit standard launchers without problems id say its a useless bonus.
Sakura Nihil Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:25:00 - [20] T2 missile spammers do have it a bit too easy, I'm afraid . Lead the way Hippo! OMG, WCS Nerf!
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:29:00 - [21] Edited by: Kamikaaazi on 21/08/2006 14:28:55 Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Laythun Originally by: HippoKing ... Originally by: HippoKing ... ... ... Yes, it is if you want to fly capitals You can all you want, but it wont change the fact that im right and its a usless timesink skill.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Sakura Nihil T2 missile spammers do have it a bit too easy, I'm afraid . Lead the way Hippo! gee, thats alot of useful information. Was there anything you acctually wanted to say?
Laythun Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:32:00 - [23] Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Laythun Originally by: HippoKing Oh god please don't quote the whole thing Just do a quote like this: Originally by: HippoKing Really fracking long post I agree with Mr King here. Change the prereq for missiles to mirro gunnery! OP caldari have more CPU, tactical shield manipulation does do something, read the description. ooh it does? Lets release a rank 4 armor manipulation skill that prevents damage from penetrating the armor. AND heres the best part, you need it at lvl5 just to use capital armor reppers. Really useful skill, isnt it? i need hull upgrades 5 to use capital reps, whats the difference?? quit ur whining and play the game *See You In Space Cowboy*
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:35:00 - [24] Edited by: HippoKing on 21/08/2006 14:36:45 Originally by: Kamikaaazi Edited by: Kamikaaazi on 21/08/2006 14:28:55 Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Laythun Originally by: HippoKing ... Originally by: HippoKing ... ... ... Yes, it is if you want to fly capitals You can all you want, but it wont change the fact that im right and its a usless timesink skill. No it isn't. It is not near useless if you want to fly capitals. You will die without it. If you think that makes it useless, don't train it and become famous as "that retard who fits LARs to his capitals". If you think the only reason for training skills is fort the bonus they offer, you are sadly mistaken. Why aren't you complaining about Spaceship command? 2% agility? Most pathetic bonus ever! Yet I have it to level5, not because I need 2% agility, but because I want to fly HACs. edit: as for timesinks, that's the point. Why do capitals need battleship V at all? Why not let people fly them with 1mil SP? Everything is about timesinking to a greater or lesser degree. If you took out all the timesinking, there would be no skills at all, and everyone would be maxed out pwnerers.
Deja Thoris Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:35:00 - [25] Originally by: Kamikaaazi You can all you want, but it wont change the fact that im right and its a usless timesink skill. This game is full of useless timesink skills Look at the cap navigation skills, I forget the name but some of them simply scream "timesink"
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:36:00 - [26] Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Laythun Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: HippoKing /quote] i need hull upgrades 5 to use capital reps, whats the difference?? quit ur whining and play the game wow, you must be one of those smart guys. Did you acctually read anything what i posted? I bet you havent even red hull upgrade skill description. You go do that and then you can come back here to apologize.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:53:00 - [27] Originally by: Alexander XVII The problem with changing the skill tree that everyone seems to be missing is that if you change the prereq's for T2 torps/cruise/etc, you have to overhaul the entire system. The prerequisites for the skills as HK laid out would intimate that you have to have rockets 5 to use standard missiles, followed by standard 5 to use assaults, which is not the case. Ergo, if you're going to run up the skill tree and essentially make nobody ever want to use missiles, you'd have to rework the entrie training set, which to use torps would look something like this: Torpedoes I Missile Launcher Operation V Cruise Missiles V Missile Launcher Operation IV Heavy Missiles V Missile Launcher Operation III Assault Missiles V Missile Launcher Operation II Standard Missiles V Missile Launcher Operation I Rockets V And then to use anything T2, you have to add in the specializations. So, in essence, in order to use t2 torps, in addition to training all the other ancillary skills, like the ability to fly a ship that can actually fire torps, as well as being able to use all its other modules, you'd have to train for almost 3 months straight on missile skills. This would make using missiles the most unwanted part of the game...great for those of you who are rails/hybrid/guns people. However, since I dont see CCP making such a bonehead change and angering 99% of caldari pilots as well as a decent percentage from other races by making them train rockets V before they can use standard missile launchers, I dont forsee it being a problem. Change skill tree, i dont mind. I can allready use all t2 missiles. BUT 1 things i demand if you do that. RELEASE MORE DIFFERENT LAUNCHERS! Something like 3 different launchers per different missile skill. I want "electon" siege launcher that gets bigger rof, shorter range, less fitting req, more precision etc. I want "neutron" siege launcher that has better rof, longer range, harder fitting req, less precision etc. Get my drift?
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:55:00 - [28] Originally by: Alexander XVII The problem with changing the skill tree that everyone seems to be missing is that if you change the prereq's for T2 torps/cruise/etc, you have to overhaul the entire system. The prerequisites for the skills as HK laid out would intimate that you have to have rockets 5 to use standard missiles ... And then to use anything T2, you have to add in the specializations. HK was talking only about the T2 progression, not raising the skills for T1 torps. Look again at the T1/T2 gunnery situation: to train large T2 guns you have to train small and medium guns to 5 whether you want to or not. This is not the case with missiles. It takes considerably less time to get T2 torps/cruise than it does to get T2 large guns.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Vasiliyan Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SHIPS: Flycatcher - has 1 totally usless bonus. And yet most of the interdictors I see are Flycatchers. I wonder why that could be? Comparing the CPU usage of weapon upgrades in isolation without considering the ships and launchers is silly. I don't see much evidence that Caldari have serious CPU problems more than other races. Shield upgrades is useful for fitting shield extenders which use noticable amounts of grid. I bet you are one of those who think that dictor is a great NPC ship? How come i never see caldari dictors in 0.0? Maybe its because they only got 1 low slot where to fit nanofibers, they are slow and they got heavy mass?
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Raider Zero Originally by: PeeWee Pee no ufcking thanks cheapo king Does every Caldari defend the T2 missile shortcut for personal gain, or do they really think it's fair? Not every caldari does
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:07:00 - [31] Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SKILLS: Shield upgrades - How much is 5% of 1 grid? ALOT? Dont think so, plz change this skill so that it reduces cpu usage instead of grid. Guess you missed the fact that it effects shield extenders and is crucial if you want to fit oversized like med on a frigate and large on a cruiser. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:10:00 - [32] Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SKILLS: Shield upgrades - How much is 5% of 1 grid? ALOT? Dont think so, plz change this skill so that it reduces cpu usage instead of grid. Guess you missed the fact that it effects shield extenders and is crucial if you want to fit oversized like med on a frigate and large on a cruiser. med extender on a frigate? You sure know alot about pvp. I personally shoot those guys who come to my gang with med slots fitted with extenders. Tho i guess it could be ok for PVE, but thats not what this game is about. Or is it?
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:13:00 - [33] Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SKILLS: Shield upgrades - How much is 5% of 1 grid? ALOT? Dont think so, plz change this skill so that it reduces cpu usage instead of grid. Guess you missed the fact that it effects shield extenders and is crucial if you want to fit oversized like med on a frigate and large on a cruiser. med extender on a frigate? You sure know alot about pvp. I personally shoot those guys who come to my gang with med slots fitted with extenders. Tho i guess it could be ok for PVE, but thats not what this game is about. Or is it? Never seen a med-ext jaguar? You clearly know all there is to know about PvP.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:17:00 - [34] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SKILLS: Shield upgrades - How much is 5% of 1 grid? ALOT? Dont think so, plz change this skill so that it reduces cpu usage instead of grid. Guess you missed the fact that it effects shield extenders and is crucial if you want to fit oversized like med on a frigate and large on a cruiser. med extender on a frigate? You sure know alot about pvp. I personally shoot those guys who come to my gang with med slots fitted with extenders. Tho i guess it could be ok for PVE, but thats not what this game is about. Or is it? Never seen a med-ext jaguar? You clearly know all there is to know about PvP. thats prolly because i shoot them. Id rather have that extender swapped to scramb, damp, tracking dist, jammer etc. Alot of ways to make it more useful for the gang. Dont forget, eve isnt a single player game.
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:19:00 - [35] Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SKILLS: Shield upgrades - How much is 5% of 1 grid? ALOT? Dont think so, plz change this skill so that it reduces cpu usage instead of grid. Guess you missed the fact that it effects shield extenders and is crucial if you want to fit oversized like med on a frigate and large on a cruiser. med extender on a frigate? You sure know alot about pvp. I personally shoot those guys who come to my gang with med slots fitted with extenders. Tho i guess it could be ok for PVE, but thats not what this game is about. Or is it? Never seen a med-ext jaguar? You clearly know all there is to know about PvP. thats prolly because i shoot them. Id rather have that extender swapped to scramb, damp, tracking dist, jammer etc. Alot of ways to make it more useful for the gang. Dont forget, eve isnt a single player game. Nor is it impossible to fly solo. Are you really trying to tell me that an entire skill that many people use (I myself find it essential when fitting caracals) is useless because you prefer EW in your gangs. Please, give it a rest. While we are at it, can we remove astrogeology. I'm sitting here in my cerberus, and I just can't see the point in it
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:29:00 - [36] When we are talking about shields, then grid isnt usually a problem. Allso it can be easily increased by PDS, RCU, MAPC. But cpu you can only increase by co-cpu's. I really didnt expect carebears like you to support me. (tho carebears usually "support" me by dropping nice loot, eg t2 fitted cerberus leftovers). You guys just want to mine in peace and shoot at those "smart and dangerous" npc-s.
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Kamikaaazi When we are talking about shields, then grid isnt usually a problem. Allso it can be easily increased by PDS, RCU, MAPC. But cpu you can only increase by co-cpu's. I really didnt expect carebears like you to support me. (tho carebears usually "support" me by dropping nice loot, eg t2 fitted cerberus leftovers). You guys just want to mine in peace and shoot at those "smart and dangerous" npc-s. I am by no means a carebear (OK, actually, today I am. I just spent a few hundred mil on fitting ships, and I'm running worlds collide atm because it is so obscenely profitable and easy to get that back). If you feel like throwing around abuse, do it somewhere else. Have you EVER tried to fit a caracal using anything but ECM? Have you EVER tried to make a viable solo jaguar build? You can't just assert that you are the fount of all PvP knowledge, and anyone who doesn't fit their ships just like you is a carebear or a noob. I use extenders on the ships that benefit from them. Maybe you should too. Shield upgrades skill is really useful when you are doing that: enough so that one of my PvP clones has the 3% extender grid usage implant in one of his slots.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:42:00 - [38] caracal are just expendable large tacklers with antifrig missiles. Assault launchers, mwd, webbers/scramblers or some other ew. Why the hell would anyone want a tanked caracal in his gang? I have tried jaguars, in fact i think i got about 10 of those things left. But i really dont find them so useful. Sure they are great solo ships, but for tackling i got stilettos that are much better.
MrBadidea Caldari The Children of Lilith	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:59:00 - [39] Originally by: HippoKing Missiles aren't meant to be identical to turrets, but at the moment, it takes a fraction of the amount of skills to use t2 cruise or torps as large guns of any kind. I'd rather see it get closer together with a slight bias towards one or the other than the massive gulf we have now). If the difference in skills was too big, maybe don't remove the rapid firing/sharpshooter skiills. And yes, I am aware I said rapid launch in the first post. Just a typo. There is more to this than just the SP going towards unlocking T2; T2 Guns tend to have more bonuses than T2 launchers have. 2 main reasons I trained up for T2 Siege: Increased Clipsize Increased ROF But with turrets, you also get increased range AND an increased damage mod. Don't cry about the ROF, because the spec skills lower that as well. I say the increased list of bonuses is worth the extra training time; T1 turrets with good skills are a nice match for T1 launchers, but when you start hitting the T2 weaponry, T2 turrets start to shine a lot more for me than T2 missiles.
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:04:00 - [40] Originally by: Kamikaaazi caracal are just expendable large tacklers with antifrig missiles. Assault launchers, mwd, webbers/scramblers or some other ew. Why the hell would anyone want a tanked caracal in his gang? I have tried jaguars, in fact i think i got about 10 of those things left. But i really dont find them so useful. Sure they are great solo ships, but for tackling i got stilettos that are much better. Are you really not getting this. Right, big letters time. Maybe it will help. Not everyone flies in gangs. Solo is still part of eve, and must be balanced just the same. Not everyone fits and flies their ships exactly like you. You aren't the be all and end all of pwn. You don't know all there is to know. Just because something is not of use to you, it is not useless. Skills are not just about the bonus they bestow.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:21:00 - [41] /me huggles Hippoking, you win the forums today. :-D
MrBadidea Caldari The Children of Lilith	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:34:00 - [42] Edited by: MrBadidea on 21/08/2006 16:35:02 Edited by: MrBadidea on 21/08/2006 16:34:28 Originally by: Gariuys /me huggles Hippoking, you win the forums today. :-D Impossible! You can't win the forums with Roule in your Corp!!!
Kraven Kor Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:43:00 - [43] Edited by: Kraven Kor on 21/08/2006 16:44:51 Originally by: Kamikaaazi BROKEN SHIPS: Flycatcher - has 1 totally usless bonus. You cant fit t2 standard launchers on that thing so small missile precision bonus is useless. Swap it to something more useful or increase grid and cpu. Nighthawk - yeah, caracal can do its job for 20 times less isk. Um... I can fit a whole rack of 6 T2 Standard Launchers, plus minimal tank, afterburner, and a BCU... And the Nighthawk has way more HP and fitting capability than the Cerberus, plus gang mod bonus on top of that. So, you are wrong on both points. Quote: BROKEN SKILLS: Tactical shield manipulation (RANK 4 !!!) - plz make it do something. ATM its just waste of skill training time. Actually, I like that I don't take armor damage until my shield is almost gone. Really helps on assault frigs. Your opinion may vary. Quote: Shield upgrades - How much is 5% of 1 grid? ALOT? Dont think so, plz change this skill so that it reduces cpu usage instead of grid. I actually kinda agree with you here. But, extenders use a fair amount of grid so this is useful there. I would kill for an "Advanced Shield Upgrades" skill, though. Quote: Warhead upgrades - hell yeah, rank5 skill for 2% damage increase? Does anyone see something wrong when you look at surgical strikes 3% damage from rank4 skill? Because missiles don't do random damage. I think this is balanced because sometimes, guns get 3% of crap while missiles would always get 2% of max. Get it? Got it? Gooooood. Quote: BROKEN MODULES: Ballistic control system I (II) - tech1 takes 35 cpu, tech2 40 cpu while gun damage mods take only 30 cpu (yes, t2 takes 30 allso). Kinda agree here, but it isn't that big a deal, and again balanced against the static vs. random damage equation (IMNSHO.) Quote: FoF and defender missiles - we should get more options with those things. Actually, defenders are about useless right now. FoF are fine as is, IMNSHO, so please elaborate there for arguments sake ;) Quote: XL shield boosters - These things take way too much cpu. ... Large Shield Booster II -> 165 MW, 115 TF, 160 cap, 240 HP boost, 4 seconds. XL Shield Booster II -> 550 MW, 230 TF, 400 cap, 600 HP boost, 5 seconds Now, that looks about right to me, but lets compare to armor reps... Medium Armor Rep II -> 173 MW, 28 TF, 160 cap, 320 hp rep, 12 seconds. Large Armor Rep II -> 2300 MW, 55 TF, 400 cap, 800 hp rep, 15 seconds. So, who is getting screwed again? Shield boosters get PG use a little more than doubled, and CPU exactly doubled. Armor tankers get their PG usage increased by over THIRTEEN TIMES, plus CPU usage just shy of doubled. Oh, and they repair for way less per second than shield boosters, though for a bit more cap efficiency. Quote: Sure other races got some similar problems but i cant tell about those since im a pure caldari. Feel free to express your own ideas. Im sure i missed some things. I think you have a few points to make, but lets stop saying "BROKEN" and "TOTALLY USELESS BONUS" as it makes your post sound like a whine, not like a valid "hey, lets look at this stuff" post. Also, doing a little research helps a lot. Strength through Unity, Discipline, and Honor!
Tao Han Caldari Crucial Electronics	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:47:00 - [44] I really should have made a Gallente char
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:11:00 - [45] Originally by: HippoKing Missiles aren't meant to be identical to turrets, but at the moment, it takes a fraction of the amount of skills to use t2 cruise or torps as large guns of any kind. I'd rather see it get closer together with a slight bias towards one or the other than the massive gulf we have now). If the difference in skills was too big, maybe don't remove the rapid firing/sharpshooter skiills. And yes, I am aware I said rapid launch in the first post. Just a typo. Maxxing missle support skills takes a bit more SP than maxxing gunnery support skills, though. About 2 mil IIRC. The increased SP need for the racial gunnery skill progression outweights that easily if you train for 2 different systems, of cource, but if missle skill progression would be changed to mirror gun skill progression missles would then have an disadvantage. Originally by: Kamikaaazi Tactical shield manipulation whinage Hull upgrades 4-5 takes over twice as much SP as TSM 1-4. Yes, it gives also 5% more armor, but that is not exactly worth 420k SP. Both skills are trained to their required lvl primary because they allow acess to t2 harderners. Also, how would you feel if invul fields would require in addition 360k SP to be effective? EAN2 does (although that module is even with the SP investment requirements in armor comp skills too efective).
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:16:00 - [46] Originally by: MrBadidea Originally by: Gariuys /me huggles Hippoking, you win the forums today. :-D Impossible! You can't win the forums with Roule in your Corp!!! Bah, I just joined. I still have win rights
PirateShampoo Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:17:00 - [47] I said it once and il say it again MISSILES SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN MADE A PRIMARY WEPON. Rails should of been Primary and not secondry
arbitrary Bad luck Clover Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:22:00 - [48] You win the thread at least Hippo - but please, I just started training up missiles so lay off the right & just struggle for equal BBQ-rights for awhile - wouldn't want the devs to change their ways just yet ___ Arbi all I want is for you to smile.
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:23:00 - [49] Originally by: arbitrary You win the thread at least Hippo - but please, I just started training up missiles so lay off the right & just struggle for equal BBQ-rights for awhile - wouldn't want the devs to change their ways just yet Yeah, but look at it the other way. Imagine if you'd just started training for guns, and you found out that it was going to take you 3months to get t2 large guns, while missile users could do it in one
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:55:00 - [50] Quote: Um... I can fit a whole rack of 6 T2 Standard Launchers, plus minimal tank, afterburner, and a BCU... And the Nighthawk has way more HP and fitting capability than the Cerberus, plus gang mod bonus on top of that. So, you are wrong on both points. AAH MY EYES... no sphere launcher? You god damn noob. I get a better setup for my caracal for 1/3 of the price. And the nighthawk, who the hell wants a frig killer CS. Have you ever looked at astarte, slepnir, absolution? They all are big brothers of HAC-s while the NH is just a sidekick of cerberus. Quote: Actually, I like that I don't take armor damage until my shield is almost gone. Really helps on assault frigs. Your opinion may vary. Stop talking **, this skill wont effect you in any way. Tho if it worked it would be better to leave at lvl0 because the shield regenerates faster when neard 30%, so who would care if some damage soaked to armor. Quote: Because missiles don't do random damage. I think this is balanced because sometimes, guns get 3% of crap while missiles would always get 2% of max. Get it? Got it? Gooooood. plz, cut the crap. I wont even add anything else to this comment. Quote:** ... Large Shield Booster II -> 165 MW, 115 TF, 160 cap, 240 HP boost, 4 seconds. XL Shield Booster II -> 550 MW, 230 TF, 400 cap, 600 HP boost, 5 seconds Now, that looks about right to me, but lets compare to armor reps... Medium Armor Rep II -> 173 MW, 28 TF, 160 cap, 320 hp rep, 12 seconds. Large Armor Rep II -> 2300 MW, 55 TF, 400 cap, 800 hp rep, 15 seconds. So, who is getting screwed again? Shield boosters get PG use a little more than doubled, and CPU exactly doubled. Armor tankers get their PG usage increased by over THIRTEEN TIMES, plus CPU usage just shy of doubled. Oh, and they repair for way less per second than shield boosters, though for a bit more cap efficiency. 230 cpu is total 26% of ravens cpu while 2300mw is near to 10-15% of any gunships powergrid.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:58:00 - [51] Originally by: HippoKing ]Yeah, but look at it the other way. Imagine if you'd just started training for guns, and you found out that it was going to take you 3months to get t2 large guns, while missile users could do it in one It actually took me a while to realize this... I havent even started on large t2 guns because it will take so long. I think I need to get away from eve to be able to stand that time... =) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
000Hunter000 Gallente Dummy Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.21 18:16:00 - [52] man people are tirsty today cuz i see a lot of whine And about the OP... err... u ever done an L4 mission with a caracal? Oh and NH will get a new bonus come Kali, the preciscion bonus will be replaced, atm it is unknown by what but i'm actually hoping for longer missile flight time (or missile speed, both serve the same purpose) and consequently longer targetting range on the ship itself. I do agree somewhat on the tac shield manipulation skill, perhaps a small percentage bonus to resistances per level? (hell even 1% per level would be kewl) but about it beeing a waste, it is needed to use active shieldhardners so it's not entirely a waste (i never had the problem of damage passing through my shields and into my armor though, cuz that is what it does, prevent damage penetrating ur shields when they are low) FoF - even though i am a missile w***ing shieldhugger i think we should be glad we have them at all, i don't think turret users have anything to shoot with at all when there jammed, atleast we got a way of fighting back. Hm, mebbe it's cuz i'm not a caldari that i don't see a whole lot wrong with missiles/shields, must be a racial thing Banner will be updated shortly
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.21 18:40:00 - [53] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: MrBadidea Originally by: Gariuys /me huggles Hippoking, you win the forums today. :-D Impossible! You can't win the forums with Roule in your Corp!!! Bah, I just joined. I still have win rights Why didnt I try harder to stay in Beagle? I miss out on the hippoking wubbing --------------------------- Originally by: HippoKing ...I suck at forums
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 18:53:00 - [54] Edited by: HippoKing on 21/08/2006 18:53:37 Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: MrBadidea Originally by: Gariuys /me huggles Hippoking, you win the forums today. :-D Impossible! You can't win the forums with Roule in your Corp!!! Bah, I just joined. I still have win rights Why didnt I try harder to stay in Beagle? I miss out on the hippoking wubbing I had no idea you were hear at all till you came up in chat yesterday People said nice things edit: and you can still have wubbing /me huggles lofty
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.21 18:56:00 - [55] Yeys They said nice things? --------------------------- Originally by: HippoKing ...I suck at forums
Cutie Chaser	Posted - 2006.08.21 19:13:00 - [56] Originally by: HippoKing stuff The reason that the skills system for missiles is the way that it is is because missiles are a SUPPORT skill for all of the races, with an exception for a subset of caldari. Amarr, Galente, and Minmatar ships all have missile hardpoints. They are supplementry, and it doesn't make any sense to force an Amarr pilot to invest 4mil SP into missiles to take advantage of T2 Torps for his Apocalypse when it is unlikely he'll fit missiles to any other Amarrian vessel(not that many use launchers on an apoc, but it is possible). Missiles are much like drones in this aspect. The path to T2 drones is pretty short as well, yet they are a primary weapon for a large variety of Galente ships, such as the Imicus, Vexor, Domi, Ishtar, and that ugly AF that looks like a bug. A pilot can quickly aquire T2 drone skills or T2 missile skills and use them as his primary weapon on a small subset of the ships of a single race. However because these are used on a huge number of ships it is necassary to keep the required training for them to be shorter. In addition to this the skills from Missiles and Drones do not help with the training of additional weaponry. A pure missile pilot who wishes to pick up Laser Turrents has to start from scratch, whereas a Blaster specialist already has a good chunk of the required support skills, along with gunnery V assumably. In further addition to this missile skills, as well as drone skills, only give you access to half of the ships of a single race. Having Large Beam Spec 4 pretty much gives you the ability to properly gear up ANY amarr ship in the area of weapons, whereas missile skills won't help too much if you are flying a Caldari railgun platform. The disparity exists because of these reasons I am sure. I started a discussion about these on the features board, which solicited a decent amount of feedback before some twit came on argueing that the idea of a standardized skill tree would nerf Minmatar because of Powergrid issues on minmatar crusiers. While it was completely non-sensical in relation to what I was discussing, it did bring to a later in-game discussion the Typhoon, which is a good example of a ships which utilizes a primary weapons system, along with 2 suplementarty ones (Projectiles + Drones and Cruise/Torp). If missiles skills and drones skills were brought more in line with the other weapon skills then it would be more skill intesnsive to fly fitted T2 than some Cap ships.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.21 19:17:00 - [57] Originally by: Cutie Chaser Originally by: HippoKing stuff The reason that the skills system for missiles is the way that it is is because missiles are a SUPPORT skill for all of the races, with an exception for a subset of caldari. Amarr, Galente, and Minmatar ships all have missile hardpoints. They are supplementry, and it doesn't make any sense to force an Amarr pilot to invest 4mil SP into missiles to take advantage of T2 Torps for his Apocalypse when it is unlikely he'll fit missiles to any other Amarrian vessel(not that many use launchers on an apoc, but it is possible). Missiles are >Not< a support weapon. They are the caldari's primary weapon. Drones are a support weapon, however. Saying missiles are support is paramount to saying that hybreds, projectiles and lasers are support weapons. May I ask, other than the harpy and moa / eagle, how many caldari ships do you see using hybreds? 3 use them as their primary weapon. 3 out of what, 40? Yes, missiles are sooo support weapons --------------------------- Originally by: HippoKing ...I suck at forums
Forgillo	Posted - 2006.08.21 19:29:00 - [58] Good lord Kamikazi you seriously need to appreciate that there is more out there than caldari and that sadly this game doesn't revolve around you wanting to fit x, y and z to your ship and for it to fit perfectly. This entire game has had stupid amounts of hours spent on balancing it. There are major differences between the different races but i really see know reason why a caldari person of all the races should complain as much. This game is too varied for you to state that you know everything about pvp, christ you havent even noticed that the caldari interdictor is the most popular one. Anyway Kamikazi stop your whining and pull yourself together, and Hippoking keep up the good work and all you other caldari people out there just be grateful for what you already have
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.08.21 19:52:00 - [59] stuff that is actually wrong with caldari: Jav ammo makes shield tankers cry. some ships need some serious low slot love i.e the cormorat would be much better off with a 8/3/2 layout. moa and eagle needs a 5th turrent slot ( and PG to fit it ) ferox needs to be more agile than any Battleship (before mods are taken into consideration ) that is all tbh.
Cutie Chaser	Posted - 2006.08.21 20:22:00 - [60] Originally by: Cutie Chaser missiles...are a SUPPORT skill for all of the races, with an exception for a subset of caldari... Please allow me to reiterate, Missiles are a support skill for RACERS OTHER THAN A SUBSET OF CALDARI. That means that it is a support skill for Minmatar, Amarr, Galente, and some Caldari ships(those with few launcher poitns and more turrent). And if you want to say the existence of the Kestrel, Caracal, Crow, Cerebrus, and Raven proves that missiles are SOMEHOW not a support skill (despite the fact that all other races use them, which is more then can be said for projectile turrents that you mention), then I would counter by saying that drones are also by your definition not support skills either due to the existence of the Imicus, Vexor, Domi, Ishtar, and Iskur.
Draaken Caldari hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.21 22:56:00 - [61] Originally by: lofty29 Missiles are >Not< a support weapon. They are the caldari's primary weapon. Caldari ships w/ launcher as primary system: 16 Caldari ships w/ turret as primary system: 11 Caldari ships w/o primary system (no bonus): 4 Caldari ships which can't decide: 1 (Raptor) So, just going by the numbers, it's not their primary weapon system, as "primary: launcher" and "primary: non-launcher" are pretty even. Counting in the ships that benefit from launcher as secondary, it tips that balance towards launchers as primary weapon system of choice for Caldari however. On top of that comes what Cutie Chaser said in his second explanation though: missiles are a support system for all other races, just like drones; making the respective skills equal to other "primary" (for the lack of a better term) weapon systems in terms of SP (and thus training time) investment would mean that everyone else would get screwed up, not Caldari -- either that, or all ships would have to be revised in their slot layouts, drone bays etc etc. The way it is at the moment, I daresay that everyone benefits most from the situation, unless a gigantic general overhaul is what you're looking for. Caldari/missiles are good for instant gratification, quick fun; there's nothing that can be said against that. But that's short-term thinking, and we're all in it for the long run, aren't we? ____________________ first!!1!! -Capsicum Originally by: Wrangler I lock, therefor I am.
Nicoli Voldkif Caelli-Merced	Posted - 2006.08.21 23:41:00 - [62] Okay realize with the proposed T2 skill redesign for missles you adding about a month and a half of training time to get all T2 missle skills over a gunner being able to use all T2 guns. Gunners would require: 6 skills at lvl 5 4 skills at lvl 4 2 skills at lvl 1 Missles would require: 7 skills at lvl 5 4 skills at lvl 4 2 skills at lvl 1 and that s not to mention that 3 of the lvl 5 skills for guns are required for all T2 large guns and thier bonuses effect ALL guns. Only 1 of the lvl 5 skills works for all missles and none of them are help any other weapon branch. The system is pretty balanced right now as always was, You get easier ability to cross train in gunnery, while you it is easier to specialize in missles. if anything I would see this hurt anyone who uses missle as a secondary weapon more than it would hurt caldari anyway. as they would have even more issue getting thier "secondary" weapon trained to T2. overall it just isn't needed. You trade easy to specialize missles for cross-train ability in guns.

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