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Veshta Yoshida
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Posted - 2006.08.22 08:24:00 -
[31]
If I have understood the discussion of instas correctly, they are only causing problems when present in People/Places.
If that is so, wouldn't an upper limit to "active" bookmarks go a long way to minimize the resulting lag?
If a player wishes to use more or different BMs than the ones active, he will then have to swap them with vouchers from hangar/cargo.
A limit of 500 active bookmarks or so would be enough to cover most regions if I am not mistaken, and the remaining bookmarks can then be stored in containers to be added when needed.
Removing instas completely is a bad idea as it would make intra-system navigation a nightmare. Surely my Apocalypse onboard navi-computer can remember where its been .. I mean its Amarr, not Minmatar technology.
Everyone likes a ferret in their pants! |
Dearnen
Gallente
Eve University
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Posted - 2006.08.22 08:40:00 -
[32]
My thoughts:
I use instas, but I don't like them much. They're a pain the ass, but without them I'd die a lot more often.
So, I offer the following changes to "solve" the problem:
1. Bookmarks cannot be setup within 40km of a gate.
2. Closest warp in point to any object or bookmark location is 20km.
3. A skill that improves warp in accuracy by 5km per level.
This solution allows bookmarks to continue to be used as originally intended. It makes it impossible to set up a bookmark that allows one to warp right to a gate. However, it allows more skilled pilots to warp in closer to the gate.
There is no single fix to resolve the problem. However, I believe that with a few adjustments such as these, the problems can be resolved in a satisfactory way for most of us.
It allows both gate camps and blockade running. It drastically reduces the load on the database server. And, it still allows setting up bookmarks in useful and valuable locations.
-Dearnen
Liberty Forever! |
Infrared Raven
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.22 08:41:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
So I suppose before the "insta" exploit for bookmarks was discovered, this entire game was "unplayable?"
There was no "before the insta exploit". When we started this game, we were busy mining for our first cruiser in empire. After we got our first cruiser, we explored space. As we explored space, we found the insta "exploit" soon afterwards. (Personaly, I would never call it s an exploit anyway.)
Bun in todays world, where you have tech II ammo, 50mil SP players and all sorts of nasty stuff, there is no way to play this game without instas.
One system doesn't hold enuff attractions (or players) to log in, pvp for two hours, and log out. So you are FORCED to travel. Under no circumstances I want to spend 1 hour of my two hours a day in EVE approaching gates.
This is a game, in the end, a game is about fun, and traveling without bookmarks is no fun whatsoever.
For Caracal, Thorax, Blackbird, Vexor, Osprey and more Cruiser BPOs - Contact me! |
Something Random
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2006.08.22 08:42:00 -
[34]
Its all my fault... blame me. I have loads.
Its not an exploit - neither are safespots. As above read the freaking player guide.
What exactly makes you so sure the crashes are to do with INSTAS and INSTAS alone ? can somebody point me to the threads/blogs/news that declares this please.
My thoughts to fix....
A skill that allows 2km less warp in point per level...
increased power and range of sentry guns around gates...
NUTS theres always someone that uses each side of this story...
but my choice is to get these things back client side, in a fully encrypted pgp style way. Then they merely become a command to server, using a public key method.
Copying will be nulled, as will all current bookmarks i guess. Wouldnt everyone win eventually... i know the pirates will talk lovingly about the 'Great Bookmark Cull' for many many years.
Random.
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Dynamist
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Posted - 2006.08.22 08:46:00 -
[35]
I think it would be cool to have the "warp to 15km" dump you at a random point 15km from your target instead of 15km short. That would render instas useless. Having a skill to increase accuracy seems to make sense as well, since I agree driving the big ships 15km to every gate is pretty annoying.
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Vactet
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Posted - 2006.08.22 08:48:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Vactet on 22/08/2006 08:52:12
Listen..
Some of yall got it right...Some.
The steps to solving a problem are as follows:
1)Identify Problem
2)Brainstorm on Solutions
3)Decide on Solution
4)Consider effects of Solution
5)Implement Solution
Going "Instas are evil, die!" is only step 1.
To the OP. You need to go past step 1, seriously. Offer some possible solutions other than removing all bookmarks or not letting bm's be placed within 15m of a gate.
I make my instas for my routes i travel. That means I spent the time making them.
Now are you going to tell me that I cant put the effort in to do something to benefit me? (If so, please stop breathing because its effort benifits you).
Now you could stop trading of BM's. But that causes a problem.
What if Guy A finds a rather cool SS?(I have one 10AU from all. Really fun spot to sit and watch folks scratch their head wondering where the heck i just went). Now he has to sit there to let his friends warp to him to get it.
Oh but then lets get rid of warp to member!
Oh..wait..thats right. Major fleet tactic. Send scouts out..scout finds target..all warp to scout. Yep problems again.
Theres about a billion possible solutions, but each causes a new problem in need of a new solution. So please think a few more steps ahead.
As for my ideas on a solution. Maybe limit the total # of BM's one can have?
Pro: You have to CHOOSE (Big factor in EVE..IE:speed or strength.)
Con: For those trader types, this might hurt them.
Understand not everyone is concerned about gatecamps, sniping bs's, and such. There are some guys who life in eve is of a trucker in empire. They take trade goods from point A to point B to make a profit. They arent carebears, thats just what they CHOOSE to do. If you say that they are wrong then you are trying to take away freedom of choice, one of the aspects that attract alot of people to EVE.
So OP all im saying is please think a few more steps further. Identifing the problem is easy, but anyone can do that. And people who only do that serve no purpose to those trying to solve the problem.
Its like saying "Hey the ice caps are melting". Gee really? Didnt know that, thanks. Now come back when you got something to add to the solution.
Another possible solution. Routes. Ok ill explain. Say you often go from System A to System J. They are many jumps apart. You could make it so that if someone traveled the same route often, then they would.."unlock" the ability to warp closer. This is sorta like truck drivers. They know the fastest route to their destination because they drive that route..alot. Want to find the fastest way anywhere? Ask a UPS Driver.
Im done.
Vac
EDIT: According to the dev comments on todays crash..its due to an increasing interest in EVE and many new players joining which fills up the servers faster. Are instas THE problem? No. Could they be PART of the problem? Possibly (No i havent trolled the forums for years to find the answer, i do more fun things, like play the game.)Point is, from what the devs have said recently, it seems fixing the insta issue would only dampen the problem..NOT fix it.
People can get so one dimensional its scary.
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Minikrimi Extreme
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Posted - 2006.08.22 08:50:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Minikrimi Extreme on 22/08/2006 08:51:59
No doubt that removing instas would necessitate a complete rebalancing of ships and mods for pvp. I've had a frig using instas be snipered out from under me in a .3 system before. But without instas, that sniper wouldn't have been beyond sentry gun range, unless another pilot flew out there first to paint the area for a warp-to-gang-member. I wouldn't have been able to get through as quickly, so now the sniper would have had more time to lock, meaning freeing up his slots for more tanking options rather than targeting options. The question becomes, does the sentry deal enough damage to keep him from attacking my frigate? Do we eliminate sentry guns from those gates, or simply declare that they are supposed to be free of untanked aggressors?
Perhaps we have an EW module and skill that counteracts an insta-like skill, so that a skilled pirate could still keep you away from the gate, so you still have the fear of going through that system. Perhaps another way is found to balance between prey and predator.
I know the devs have been looking into the problem, and I have seen nothing but heads shaking in dismay as they see what they have wrought. I remember hearing some friends of mine talking about the introduction of bookmarks and how they thought that would wreck the economy--you no longer had to fly your frig 20km to a rock after getting to the belt, meaning you could now strip a belt much easier, something that was surely game-breaking. I don't think anyone at the time thought in terms of database load, it simply wasn't an issue that the other players saw. Now bookmarks are an addiction to pvper, miner and trader. Our gameplay is based on bookmarks. Many people would have to throw out a couple years of experience as players learning the balance in Eve. This is not necessarily a bad thing, except that people don't like change. As bad as lag and crashes are now, it could be seen as worse to change this system by many players. Shouts of "Adapt or die!" would ring out across the forum, like with every rebalancing. I just wonder how many would rather die than adapt.
Just my thoughts.
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wild Ari
Euphoria Released
Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.08.22 08:52:00 -
[38]
Originally by: mazzilliu
suv = raven
cap guzzler and bad handling. my raven flipped over on the road once because i didnt air up the tires
and roughing it means belthunting in a 0.6 
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Trillian Mcmillan
The Arrow Project
The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.08.22 08:53:00 -
[39]
Hello. My name is Trillian and i am an insta-junkie.
*the room claps* *people nod in acknowledgement*
Seriously.
Where does the notion of all instas being kept in active memory come from? Do you have a reference to dev post stating this? Please point me to it i must have missed it. I can show you posts from devs frimly stating that there is NO evidence of BMs cousing lag.
Oh btw. I use bookmarks only for medical purposes. Ok ok i use a few for recreation as well.
But i never sold any. Honest.
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Keeloux Siind
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Posted - 2006.08.22 09:29:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Keeloux Siind on 22/08/2006 09:31:43
This is kinda easy to solve, I think, make the 15 km surrounding a gate like deadspace. Then create lowslot modules that will decrease the warp-in distance in this "deadspace" by 2500m per module with a minimum warp-in distance of 2500m.
This would present a dilemma for the haulers if they should compromize cargo cap to be able to warp closer, and also the warships would be compromizing their tank, if they wanted the minimum warp-in.
I would find this an acceptable alternative.
Although I don't really use instas that much, I simply loathe being locked to the computer for 60 jumps, just to warp and jump and warp and jump and.......too bloody boring and a waste of my precious (well, maybe not precious time, though the degree of boredom connected to insta operation does make my time seem precious) time.
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Toolivus
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Posted - 2006.08.22 09:51:00 -
[41]
I was just going to say that if your warp finishes within 15km of a gate and you were warping to a bookmark (so you can still warp to gang members) it should pull you out at the 15km mark. This would make instas useless, but leave other bookmarks working fine. I'll still say this, but add in Keeloux's lowslot module idea.
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Tarminic
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Posted - 2006.08.22 17:34:00 -
[42]
Originally by: SonOTassadar
With the amount of snipers, gate campers, and just pirates in general, this game would be UN-PLAY-ABLE for a single person in low-sec/no-sec. I agree that instas need a fix, but until a solution is found that doesn't break the game, they are the solution.
Unplayable? Are you serious? I'm a ninja-miner/hauler that operates in NOS space and I don't use instas on principle, and I never have. But somehow I can still play and have an enjoyable time, although TSDS had had their share of fun at my expense as well. But to claim that EVE simply cannot be played without instas makes you either lazy or a coward. Yes, moving through 0.0 is harder without instas, but damnit, it should be harder, that's the whole point! Not to mention the other valid points made here as well.
Anyone here complaining about having to go without their gate-to-gate instas needs to grow some nads and stop whining. If I can do it in an Iteron Mark 3 and a Covetor, you can too.
It's true, I swear. |
Rishian Bloodstar
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Posted - 2006.08.22 17:37:00 -
[43]
We could just be evil and have people using instas fly back like... 50km.  |
Aerieva
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.22 17:43:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Aerieva on 22/08/2006 17:52:58
Edited by: Aerieva on 22/08/2006 17:48:54
Originally by: Dearnen
My thoughts:
I use instas, but I don't like them much. They're a pain the ass, but without them I'd die a lot more often.
So, I offer the following changes to "solve" the problem:
1. Bookmarks cannot be setup within 40km of a gate.
Damn, I would have to add 12,000 60K BM's to my library of 12,000 20K BM's. :P
Does anyone really want to drive a Freighter/Hauler/Tanked Out BS at 80M/s without bookmarks 40 Jumps in .0... Any why add a skill... One week after it is introduced EVERYONE will have it thereby wasting 1 week of everyones time... A lowslot module? Yey for shieldtanks, gimp for armortanks (well a plus would be 1 less stab...)
Encrypted Clientside BM's FTW...
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LarryBongo
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Posted - 2006.08.22 17:47:00 -
[45]
Move them to the client; Encrypt them. Each user has a unique private key automatically generated and stored centrally on server - all encryption and decryption of BMs done on server.
In terms of CCP's resources, you'd be trading an increase in the overhead associated with encryption with a decrease in DB overhead. As I understand it, encryption is primarily number-crunching, so it's CPU intensive - the DB stuff is a bit more complex though, as IO speed (memory, hard-disk) definitely plays a significant part. Whether that would be a trade-off worth making (or even possible), only CCP know.
The other suggestion I liked was the limit on number of BMs. Cut them right back to a few hundred. Or to whatever number CCP reckons would make a difference. Hell, introduce a multi-tiered payment system - if you want more than the 'standard' number of BMs, you can damn well pay for it.
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Osora
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Posted - 2006.08.22 18:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: LarryBongo
Move them to the client; Encrypt them. Each user has a unique private key automatically generated and stored centrally on server - all encryption and decryption of BMs done on server.
In terms of CCP's resources, you'd be trading an increase in the overhead associated with encryption with a decrease in DB overhead. As I understand it, encryption is primarily number-crunching, so it's CPU intensive - the DB stuff is a bit more complex though, as IO speed (memory, hard-disk) definitely plays a significant part. Whether that would be a trade-off worth making (or even possible), only CCP know.
The other suggestion I liked was the limit on number of BMs. Cut them right back to a few hundred. Or to whatever number CCP reckons would make a difference. Hell, introduce a multi-tiered payment system - if you want more than the 'standard' number of BMs, you can damn well pay for it.
I like the idea of encrypting bookmarks...in fact, I think the entire encryption could be handled on the client side - the encryption only comes up when bookmarks are being transferred from one player to the other. Will this be unhackable? Definately not - anyone who can program could theoretically evade this by copying the encryption algorithm, faking their player id, or any other number of means. But this will be an effective deterrent to the vast majority of players using instas, and would only add to client load instead of server load (And the first person that complains about having to put up with the extra time needed to computer a single MD5 hash on their computer will be smacked). A limit to the reasonable number of bookmarks players can own might be another good idea...i think 100-200 is a good number and would accomodate almost all non-instay needs.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.08.22 18:22:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Mchart
Gate camping and snipers /is/ part of the game.
So are instas. Get used to it or invent a solution that doesn't make the game easy-mode for those wishing to stop others from traveling.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.08.22 18:23:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
It's not even an INTENDED part of the game. Gates, and the 15km trips to get to them, were put there for a reason. T2 ammo and overpowered sensor boosters may make that 15km nigh impossible in some circumstances, but the underlying and ultimate issue here is the "instas" themselves, which are clogging the database, with obvious and visible results.
CCP itself has stated that it's not sure lag comes from instas, so this issue is not as clearcut as you like to pretend.
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Adam Kravallion
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Posted - 2006.08.22 18:30:00 -
[49]
How about limitting the maximum number of BMs your "people and places" can memorize. Lets say... 200.
This way peolple whould have to actualy *select* the BM they really need. |
Catarina Caldone
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Posted - 2006.08.22 18:31:00 -
[50]
I kind of like the idea of making a "warp gate accuracy" skill. With a tier 2 specialty that places you right at a warp gate at level 5. Something like: (numbers used for effect)
Warp accuracy level 1 places you at a random point within 50km of the gate you're warping to.
Level 2 within 40km
Level 3 within 30km
Level 4 within 20km
Level 5 within 10km
Warp accuracy specialization would drop in increments of 1500m over 5 levels.
Level 1 puts you 8500m from the gate
Level 2 7km
Level 3 5500m
Level 4 4km
Level 5 2500m.... right at warp activation range, just like an insta, but without the need for a bookmark.
To return bookmarks to thier originally intended use, allow NO bookmark to be created within 250km of ANY warp gate. And remove ALL current bookmarks prior to implementation.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.08.22 18:33:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Catarina Caldone
I kind of like the idea of making a "warp gate accuracy" skill. With a tier 2 specialty that places you right at a warp gate at level 5. Something like: (numbers used for effect)
Warp accuracy level 1 places you at a random point within 50km of the gate you're warping to.
Level 2 within 40km
Level 3 within 30km
Level 4 within 20km
Level 5 within 10km
Warp accuracy specialization would drop in increments of 1500m over 5 levels.
Level 1 puts you 8500m from the gate
Level 2 7km
Level 3 5500m
Level 4 4km
Level 5 2500m.... right at warp activation range, just like an insta, but without the need for a bookmark.
To return bookmarks to thier originally intended use, allow NO bookmark to be created within 250km of ANY warp gate. And remove ALL current bookmarks prior to implementation.
All that does is create a mandatory skill that everyone will skill up as their first action on a new character. Then everyone in the game will effectively have instas and it will become impossible for alliances to protect their borders.
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Tabet Saens
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.22 18:51:00 -
[52]
I'm not well versed in the game(no experience in 0.0 at all), and I'm sure this has been brought up and shot down, however all instas/gatecamp threads are soOo long to sift thru. I don't have a complete proposal, so consider this a partial "proposal".
So warping ontop of a gate seems a bit wrong, RP-wise. You could cause massive damage to the gate, and Concord shouldn't allow for that. That said, allowing a BS to sit 100km out, lobbing ammo the size of refrigerators into the general area seems just as ridiculous.
So make a shield around the gate. You cannot warp into the shield. Any damage causing weapon cannot be shot from outside the shield INTO an object inside the shield. Both activities are considered dangerous to the gate.
Note this does not make a traveler invulnerable. If a gatecamper wishes to sit inside the shield and attack you, he can. He will however be fired upon by the sentry guns. BS's sitting outside the shield can only attack those who are outside the shield.
As far as warping in distance, we measure that by distance to shield. It can start at roughly 7.5km and a skill can be introduced to make this shorter and shorter. Note max skill will get you to virtually next to the shield. You will still have to travel the distance between the shield to the gate. Make that something like 4km I guess.
Autopiloting will drop you at some default distance from shield and will leave you susceptible to both snipers and inside shield gate campers.
Is that too complicated? Sniping and camping will still be feasible. Safe travel will not be dependant on bookmarks but rather skillpoints, as well as dodging pirates who are willing to tank sentry guns. Autopiloting remains extremely dangerous. T2 ammo(if broken) can be fixed, at later time.
So this is probably naive, but I do agree that while I use instas, I think they are not good for the game.
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Catarina Caldone
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Posted - 2006.08.22 18:52:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
All that does is create a mandatory skill that everyone will skill up as their first action on a new character. Then everyone in the game will effectively have instas and it will become impossible for alliances to protect their borders.
Not necessarily. Most people have them already. Many are asking for easier ways to copy them to thier alts. Some simply can't play effectively without them. And if its a Rank 5 or higher skill, do you think "everyone" would want to skill it up to max? You'd spend a year or more paying for an account just to rank this skill to max specialty level? Warping on top of a gate should be a priveledge earned through hard work, and costly skilling. Not something as simple as marking a spot on the map.
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Vactet
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Posted - 2006.08.22 18:55:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Catarina Caldone
I kind of like the idea of making a "warp gate accuracy" skill. With a tier 2 specialty that places you right at a warp gate at level 5. Something like: (numbers used for effect)
Warp accuracy level 1 places you at a random point within 50km of the gate you're warping to.
Level 2 within 40km
Level 3 within 30km
Level 4 within 20km
Level 5 within 10km
Warp accuracy specialization would drop in increments of 1500m over 5 levels.
Level 1 puts you 8500m from the gate
Level 2 7km
Level 3 5500m
Level 4 4km
Level 5 2500m.... right at warp activation range, just like an insta, but without the need for a bookmark.
To return bookmarks to thier originally intended use, allow NO bookmark to be created within 250km of ANY warp gate. And remove ALL current bookmarks prior to implementation.
*Spaztastic Seizure*
Listen...
1)Waste of time. I am a hauler for my corp. Id have to learn these skills to be anyway effective.
2)Those haulers that dont train them, or are training them and not yet completed would be hurt..badly. I fly a Badger2 with some rather expensive cargo expanders. The thing moves SLOWWWWW (150 WITH afterburner). This new idea would make it punishment to add cargo expanders.
3)All BM's removed *Schwartz Smack*. Hey ever think of all those BM's to places like oh i dont know...POS's and stuff? Or how about ones closer to stations. Get rid of Insta-docks too?
Think about your idea a bit more next time. Dont just think of yourself, but all other player types in the game and how they would be effective.
Vac
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Catarina Caldone
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Posted - 2006.08.22 19:18:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Vactet
*Spaztastic Seizure*
Listen...
1)Waste of time. I am a hauler for my corp. Id have to learn these skills to be anyway effective.
2)Those haulers that dont train them, or are training them and not yet completed would be hurt..badly. I fly a Badger2 with some rather expensive cargo expanders. The thing moves SLOWWWWW (150 WITH afterburner). This new idea would make it punishment to add cargo expanders.
3)All BM's removed *Schwartz Smack*. Hey ever think of all those BM's to places like oh i dont know...POS's and stuff? Or how about ones closer to stations. Get rid of Insta-docks too?
Think about your idea a bit more next time. Dont just think of yourself, but all other player types in the game and how they would be effective.
Vac
Well, your retort MAY have been justified IF you had thought it through yourself. This idea considers "gate locations" ONLY. Removing ALL bookmarks would likely be the only way to be sure to clear the game of all the instas currently in effect. But i'm reasonably certain CCP could devise a way to distinguish the difference between bookmarks around jumpgates, and bookmarks elsewhere in space. I'm pretty sure I hinted at this when I said "within 250km of ANY gate".
For haulers, make the skill "dynamically" tie in with industrial and freighter ship skills. In other words, if you've trained an industrial or freighter ship skill to level 5, the warp accuracy skill would become a Rank 1 skill.
For future reference, forming your "Spaztastic Seizures" into a question that can be answered, will go a long way toward devising a reasonable alternative. :)
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon
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Posted - 2006.08.22 19:20:00 -
[56]
Urrr... now how exactly do insta's cause lag?
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Catarina Caldone
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Posted - 2006.08.22 19:35:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
BAHAHAHAHA
You want to make this skill take a year to train? Gee, your bias is showing. Are you a low-sec gatecamper, by chance?
No actually. But thank you for the vote of confidence 
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Vactet
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Posted - 2006.08.22 19:38:00 -
[58]
From both a gatecamper and one who has to run through gatecamps..yeh. Insta's shouldnt go away.
The issue isnt the insta's. The issue is the whole hands tied behind your back when it comes to warp bubbles in .1 to .4.
Letting them be in those secs would be interesting. Way around it? They cant be placed X Km around the gate in .1 to .4. For gatecampers this would mean those genius's that just go g2g back to back would be easy prey. But then those smart ones who use off angle trajetory shot insta's (Think of a triangle) would be fine.
Anyways, back to the instas.
Id really love one of the folks that say insta's cause lag to find a quote by devs stating such.
And no its not my job to find it. You are trying to make the point that they cause lag, you find the proof.
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WhatsInAName
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Posted - 2006.08.22 19:38:00 -
[59]
Edited by: WhatsInAName on 22/08/2006 19:38:45
Double post. And with an alt i didnt know I had to boot. Lovely.
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Lillith Blackheart
True Core
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Posted - 2006.08.22 19:40:00 -
[60]
Anyone who thinks instas are "necessary to compete" just likes having a crutch.
I have instas, and the only time I ever use them is when hauling stuff around in safe areas, because a badger mkII with 3 local hull mod: cargo expanders is slower than mollasses in january in the arctic north.
Beyond that I don't see a point. They're a crutch. I'm happy without them, as I never really use them anyway. If you're smart and use your brain while travelling you'll never have a need for them.
Me.
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