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The "SUVs" of EvE.

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Evelyn Lavi	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:41:00 - [1] Edited by: Evelyn Lavi on 22/08/2006 04:44:47 Edited by: Evelyn Lavi on 22/08/2006 04:44:18 We have a peculiar thing in EVE that is not altogether different from the modern world's "sport utility vehicle." Let me explain the comparitive points. 1. It is a luxury. It makes travel more comfortable, and to some extent, "safer" for the ones using it. 2. It is "necessary" to compete. Ever see what happens when a sedan is rear-ended by a Hummer? Well, you're liable to getting killed right-fast in lowsec without these items in EVE, as well. 3. It is a tremendous resource hog. Instead of gasoline, it takes up tremendous amounts of database space, with more being made every day, causing more crashes and more lag. 4. The users, and especially the abusers, are in denial about the negative impact of the glut of it. "There's no conclusive proof they screw up the environment/database!" I'm talking about instas. Today's madness is a testament to what several million (and growing) little bits of clutter in active memory can do with nothing done to stop them.
Sigurd Ross	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:46:00 - [2] How dare you deny my god-given right to clutter the server with thousands of bookmarks! I will make another set for my alts, then complain about the lag afterward! No, really, these instas are really screwing up the database. I've played EVE for years, and until the obsession with using them, it's never been this bad.
Bloodtrax	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:51:00 - [3] Ista's?? you mean Insta Warps? I admit. im a week new, have a full acount as of today. But I havent seen these yet? are the Rat Drops? or crafted only? and How do they mess up the Database?
Benefactor	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:52:00 - [4] Sad fact remains, that if people find them convenient and useful, even if in gigantic quantities they choke up the database, they will keep using them, even if they don't flame you on the forum for bringing it up. It's a harsh reality, that people usually claim to be interested in the common good, but don't want to start in their own backyard...
74l0nz Gallente MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:54:00 - [5] instas are bookmarks that players create so they can warp directly to a stargate instead of 15km's out. and i think the quick fix for this is keep bookmarks but introduce a rank3 skill book in navigation that will let u warp 3km's closer to a gate with each level of the skill book that would make the instas worthless and would quickly disapear
Benefactor	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Bloodtrax Ista's?? you mean Insta Warps? I admit. im a week new, have a full acount as of today. But I havent seen these yet? are the Rat Drops? or crafted only? and How do they mess up the Database? As a semi-exploit, made legitimate by sheer popularity alone, the normal 15km warp distance to a given location is bypassed by placing a "bookmark" 15km away from the gate in the other side of the location, thereby warping you right on top of it. Great, did I just inspire another "insta" junkie? That's where the problem lies. People becoming SO dependent on them that they make thousands, thousands of active-memory hogging bookmarks between thousands and thousands of users. That adds up, even if a single bookmark is insignifigant. The same people that say it has no impact on the database are the same people that think dumping toxic sludge into the ocean isn't a cause for alarm, because the ocean's "big enough to handle it." In real life, we get red tides of algae that feed off the sludge and kill fish and other life forms for thousands of miles around. In this game, we get constant server crashes. Some people never learn.
Mchart Caldari The Cursed Killers	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:00:00 - [7] I really wish CCP would step up to the plate and lay down the law with this issue. Easy fix - Delete every single bookmark in the game during tommarrows patch. Long term fix - Make it so you cant warp in nearer then 15km to a gate. (But obviously make it so people can warp out)
Evelyn Lavi	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Mchart I really wish CCP would step up to the plate and lay down the law with this issue. Easy fix - Delete every single bookmark in the game during tommarrows patch. Long term fix - Make it so you cant warp in nearer then 15km to a gate. (But obviously make it so people can warp out) I agree wholeheartedly! I'm amazed the "omg instas make travel faster" justification wasn't invoked yet. Or the "if u dont liek it u get instas too" non-sequitur.
SonOTassadar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:11:00 - [9] With the amount of snipers, gate campers, and just pirates in general, this game would be UN-PLAY-ABLE for a single person in low-sec/no-sec. I agree that instas need a fix, but until a solution is found that doesn't break the game, they are the solution. ___________________________
Mchart Caldari The Cursed Killers	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:16:00 - [10] Originally by: SonOTassadar With the amount of snipers, gate campers, and just pirates in general, this game would be UN-PLAY-ABLE for a single person in low-sec/no-sec. I agree that instas need a fix, but until a solution is found that doesn't break the game, they are the solution. Gate camping and snipers /is/ part of the game. And currently, your solution of instas /is/ breaking the game. So by removing the insta exploit (yes, it is an exploit) you not only are removing server issues, you are un-breaking the game.

Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:17:00 - [11] I'm PERFECTLY happy to get rid of instas... ...as long as I can have my damn highways back. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Jalia Kovac Placid Reborn Placid Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:24:00 - [12] If we're going to deal with instas, why not get the hell rid of secure cans at the same time? Give everyone a 2 month moratorium to pick up their stuff and then kill the lot of them. ► ► Placid Reborn Headquarters ◄ ◄
Evelyn Lavi	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:29:00 - [13] Originally by: SonOTassadar With the amount of snipers, gate campers, and just pirates in general, this game would be UN-PLAY-ABLE for a single person in low-sec/no-sec. I agree that instas need a fix, but until a solution is found that doesn't break the game, they are the solution. So I suppose before the "insta" exploit for bookmarks was discovered, this entire game was "unplayable?" It's not even an INTENDED part of the game. Gates, and the 15km trips to get to them, were put there for a reason. T2 ammo and overpowered sensor boosters may make that 15km nigh impossible in some circumstances, but the underlying and ultimate issue here is the "instas" themselves, which are clogging the database, with obvious and visible results.
Evelyn Lavi	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Jalia Kovac If we're going to deal with instas, why not get the hell rid of secure cans at the same time? Give everyone a 2 month moratorium to pick up their stuff and then kill the lot of them. Yes, but when it comes to basic "item" placement and XYZ coordinates stored in active database, a secure can takes up as much room in database as a bookmark. How many people have THOUSANDS of secure cans to their name, with another set copied every once in a while for friends and alts?
mazzilliu Caldari SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:40:00 - [15] suv = raven cap guzzler and bad handling. my raven flipped over on the road once because i didnt air up the tires will still draw sigs 4 isk click here
Brutor Shaun Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:53:00 - [16] How about a happy medium. Make the warp distance 7km? Or, as suggested many times, make warp proximity a skill. And due to some effect or other, make it impossible to set a BM within 30km of a gate. While I don't hoard 1000's of BMs, I do admit to having a few, and yes they are instas. The reason I have them isn't to avoid camps. It's purely a time thing. I get limited time playing Eve, and the 15km plod in a BS uses up too much of this time.
Infinity Ziona Apostasia	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:55:00 - [17] They're going to be 'somethinged' that something being something we dont have a clue about but it will most probably cause you to be more vulnerable while not cutting down on travel times. Theres no such thing as 'the game being unplayable due to instas going away' since its your choice to travel into dangerous territory and the game can be played quite well solely in high security space or in safe alliance space deep in 0.0. Click Me
Ta chaina	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:07:00 - [18] Once again another whine about insta's from another person who has not said anything about a fix other then see they make lag do away with them. what are you going to say is causing lag next? Oh I know he/she is a pack rat and has to much stuff in his/her hanger its causing lag. Or maybe that miner is causing lag because he only sells his ore once a week, and all that ore in his hanger is causing the server to crash. When you have a way to fix the problem that makes atleast 80% of the people happy please feel free to post it. But if you dont then your doing nothing more then causing forum lag P.S. unless you can show proof dont bother posting.
Evelyn Lavi	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:12:00 - [19] Originally by: Ta chaina Once again another whine about insta's from another person who has not said anything about a fix other then see they make lag do away with them. what are you going to say is causing lag next? Oh I know he/she is a pack rat and has to much stuff in his/her hanger its causing lag. Or maybe that miner is causing lag because he only sells his ore once a week, and all that ore in his hanger is causing the server to crash. When you have a way to fix the problem that makes atleast 80% of the people happy please feel free to post it. But if you dont then your doing nothing more then causing forum lag P.S. unless you can show proof dont bother posting. You're like one of those people that asks for "proof" of evolution. A fossil record and millions of years of geological evidence wouldn't faze you. In this case, a game choking to death on a bi-weekly basis isn't enough evidence that something is taking more than its fair share of resources. You might be an insta-junkie, but you could at least reply while giving me evidence to the contrary, and something else that hasn't balooned completely out of control in the last few months when it comes to database space. ... forget it. Talking to you is like talking to an SUV driver, a chain smoker, and a Young Earth Creationist all rolled into one. No evidence is enough.
Flex Carter Caldari Caldari Independant Mining Association	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Evelyn Lavi Originally by: SonOTassadar With the amount of snipers, gate campers, and just pirates in general, this game would be UN-PLAY-ABLE for a single person in low-sec/no-sec. I agree that instas need a fix, but until a solution is found that doesn't break the game, they are the solution. So I suppose before the "insta" exploit for bookmarks was discovered, this entire game was "unplayable?" It's not even an INTENDED part of the game. Gates, and the 15km trips to get to them, were put there for a reason. T2 ammo and overpowered sensor boosters may make that 15km nigh impossible in some circumstances, but the underlying and ultimate issue here is the "instas" themselves, which are clogging the database, with obvious and visible results. Then we need to go back to the old system... I know when I first started playing, I didn't ask to be pushed out to 15km from everything I warped to but we were. And now that the community has found a way around it, we got an over-flowing database problem. Stop trying to make us feel guilty for having BMÆs and put the blame back on the cause of this problem, the DevÆs. ItÆs in our nature to find ways to do things betterà The question you should be asking is; How are ôtheyö going to fix this without aggravating players or loosing customers?

TheDevilsJury principle of motion	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:29:00 - [21] if we get rid of instas, do we also get rid of using people (cov ops) as warp-in points? Warping to gang members? Do we attach a "warp to at 15" option to every ship, including enemies? do we get rid of sniper point bookmarks and can bookmarks? Get rid of Safe Spots? (I'm all for getting rid of safe spots...) And warp-ins to the POS bubbles? In My Opinion, we'd have to do it all, because there's very few ways to get rid of instas without getting rid of bookmarks, as we know them, entirely. Make it so they can only be attached to a permanent object (as what happens when you BM a station for example). I used to be my corps junior BM manager, and I had a thing for making as many SSes as I could. I see how they're convenient. But at the same time, just waiting for my People and Places to load tells me the system isn't working as it is. Anyway my point is it's not as simple as getting rid of gate and station instas, no matter what side you take. This is a very complex problem that I don't think anyone here is currently portraying in it's entirety, including me. ----------------------- sig below Originally by: ISD I don't think I've ever seen anyone hijack their own thread before
Vice Cicero	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:30:00 - [22] I dont see the problem, CCP is letting us make BM's. If there are significant problems relating to make BM'S, they surely will put a stop on it.
Mecinea Lua	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:38:00 - [23] Instas are a necesity for many gamers of eve. They serve the purpose of making travel more convenient and enabling those with less time to enjoy some game time rather than just waiting to get their and then having to log off. Removing such ability without replacing it with a skill that allowed a similar movement or with a just warp to 0 km option would impact on the subscriptions of the game. Removing all BMs is also a mistake as many miners use BMs to enable them to mine asteroid belts more effectively. Without the BMs they'd have a hard time mining as the travel time to just move a barge 15km to 30km to cover the entire belt is extraordinary.
Ta chaina	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:40:00 - [24] And once again you gave NO way of fixing the problem. Its sad really when all you want to do is cry about the problem and not even bother to come up with a way to fix it. Even I as a SUV driver, a chain smoker, and a Young Earth Creationist all rolled into one (as you called me) can come up with something after reading the posts on this board. Like 1) do away with gate camping in systems .1 and above. But wait some people wont like that they'll have to work for there kills and we cant have that. 1b) same as above but make warp disrupters work anywhere, but only against war targets. 2) make a skill to let ships warp closer to the gates/stations. But once again you most likely wont like this idea as youll have to think more to make a kill. come up with a solution (or atleast part of one) to the problem when you post. One last thing you dont see me calling you names like you did at the end of your reply to my post. This is not the way to come up with a good fix for the problem, it just starts a flame war.
TheDevilsJury principle of motion	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:47:00 - [25] and what Mecinea said is exactly my point. I see a little bit of a mindset "let's just get rid of them" and that simply won't work. If it was that easy to eliminate insta bookmarks without affecting the game greatly CCP might have done it already. What I think has to happen is that instas have to be made unnecessary and even inconvenient at the same time. I think there should be 2 real steps to this. First, for gates (and gates only), there should be a warp to at 10km option. And it should be impossible to warp to any closer - one should be pushed out to 10km. Secondly, gates need to be far better defended, or have the option to be better defended. Even in low sec and 0.0. Gate guns should do nasty things to 300km snipers. Roaming Concord fleets should bust up gatecamps in empire low sec (just an outlandish example). Whatever's necessary. In 0.0, alliances or even NPC factions should be able to set up proper gate defenses (I seem to recall something about this coming sometime in Kali, so yay!). Make travel safer, make instas fail to work, and you're killing people's need for instas and their old habits at the same time. ----------------------- sig below Originally by: ISD I don't think I've ever seen anyone hijack their own thread before
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:30:00 - [26] Personally, I really dislike instas. I think EVE would be a better game if they just 'stopped' and required bookmarks to be on objects. And keep that 15km warp to. It's not a popular opinion, I know, because a lot of people go 'omg that's unfair'. Thing is, it's two way change. Much like increasing the hitpoints on ships, it affects everyone. So yes, your travel times would be increased. But so would everyone elses. It'd make EVE seem big. People wouldn't fly 10 jumps in a BS to go shopping in Jita, so a local market would spring up, all over the place. And whilst there is an argument of 'zomg how do I get past campers', well to be honest the answer is quite simple. Use a fast ship. It's already quite possible to tank a hauler, but virtually everyone uses stabs or nanos or expanders anyway. Bear in mind that pirates will have the same limitations. The sniper BS won't be able to bounce around system on instas, and through the gate if it looks like there's going to be trouble. The pirate also won't be able to cover a huge area looking for targets. Now it'll slow down fleet movement, but remember that 'warp to' something? Well, your forward scouts can quite easily provide warp in points for the fleet, to allow them to move faster. What it'll do is the same thing as removing the highways did. Make EVE bigger. Make the other end of the galaxy a long way away, and remove this dependancy on the 'crutch' that is instas. For the record, I do use instas. I spent several months running chokepoints in and out of 0.0 running a 5 tower starbase chain. So I _do_ know what is involved in doing so without them. I gave in, because I got fed up of people in fully expanded iteron 5s hauling past me, saying 'pfft, get instas n00b', 100k m3 of hauling a week is a real chore if you do it without instas. Despite that, I _still_ think they should go. After all, 100k m3 becomes hard work. Great. That makes it more worthwhile to do. As it stands, there's one stat on a cargo ship that matters. How much stuff it holds. I'd like to see a choice, between the slow, fully expanded iteron, and the fast, nanofibered sigil. Same argument with slow ships vs. fast.
shoveit	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:00:00 - [27] Edited by: shoveit on 22/08/2006 08:02:50 Removing insta's all together most certainly is NOT the answer. Live in 0.0 for a few days and you'll see what I mean. Pirates would have a field day. So, in my opinion, people calling out for the removal of insta's are either A: Pirates themselves and know darn well what removing them would mean or B: people who live in empire that have no clue what life in 0.0 would be like without them. Battleships would be almost useless out there due to the fact that it would be far too risky to travel around ratting/mining/pvp'ing with them having to slow boat it to each stargate. You'd have to have to have a covert ops pilot with you setting up slingshots to each gate, it would take AGES!! Be realistic. What did people do before insta's? Battleships weren't around yet, people scooted around in fast cruisers and frigs so get a grip people. Those stating that people got along before instas don't have a freaking clue. Are insta's the answer? No, something needs to be done no question, they are contributing to lag but removing them all together most certainly is NOT the answer. The best solution I've seen is making it into a skill based ability. The op, and apparently almost everyone else here, need to think for a second about it and of a possible solution before calling out for the complete removal of bookmarks and how it will affect the game. Period.
Dahak2150	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:01:00 - [28] Can instas really be considered an exploit if the Official CCP New Player Guide talks about them? Scroll down a bit, where it says, in nice bold white text, "setting bookmarks". ---------- My sig is boring.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:16:00 - [29] Instas aren't exploits - they're a pain for: a. The servers b. Gate campers (not all gate camping is evil and bad, you know) c. The guys/gals who need to copy them for whatever reason However, considering that the number one reason for quitting EVE is that it takes such a damned awful long time to get from system A to system B, CCP has realized that they cannot do away with instas without replacing them with an effective replacement. This is where it gets difficult. Do you just give free instas (<2km warp-in on all objects) to everyone? Will the autopilot be able to use this? How do you implement it? Through skills? Through modules? What about fleet movement if implementation is through modules? Or the big one: How do you remove all those instas without (giving) people (a reason or functionality for) making new ones? Originally by: Evelyn Lavi I'm talking about instas. Today's madness is a testament to what several million (and growing) little bits of clutter in active memory can do with nothing done to stop them. I thought you were talking about Carriers... Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Kieli Rast	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:22:00 - [30] get rid of gates all together and have random warp in points. Make space travel like the old Elite model, i.e you have to jump to another system, not fly to a gate and activate it. Prevent immediate system jumps by having a drive that requires charging up before the next jump is allowed. Territorial control and current warfare tactics get a lot more interesting then. Please follow the Forum rules (see #3) when creating a signature graphic for your character -Eldo email us for questions.



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