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Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2006.08.23 08:20:00 -
[1]
To properly value Dentara's EIB scam and place it in the history of Eve, I think we need to figure out how much he indeed scammed.
Dentara doesn't seem to be able to step out from his role as a scammer, and analyze the events in detail. Instead he seems to hold on his egoist rants, claims to "EIB was honest and profitable operation" and so on.
This has let me to wonder: if we can't really trust anything he says, how we figure out how big this scam was?
- Dentara Rast claims to have scammed 800B, and provided a screenshot of 671B wallet (and has confessed forging screenshots when needed)
- Already in late June Dentara claimed to have around 800B (the bank itself late march)
Based on some mentions about his expensive PvP ships, and looking at his , forum post history, we can conclude he does seem to have lot of buying power.
So, do we have some methods to get trustable figures?
- Would Dentara endure an audit to check the balance? Submit harder-to-forge wallet/journal fraps?
- Can we figure out from whom he sucked the ISKs (he claims mostly from big rich alliances, but refuses to give names/amounts)? Anyone dares to admit?
- Any other ways to get reasonably trusted figures for the scale of this?
-Lasse
P.S. Gratz to Currin Trader for winning Eve by stopping this evil scheme (ok, it's there just to annoy DR).
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Kalavoz
Caldari
Calista Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.23 08:48:00 -
[2]
I agree that some harder to forge evidence would be very nice for all of us.
Having followed the whole drama avidly from start to finish, I'd like to say thanks to all concerned, it was very entertaining 
Also, respect to CT.. I liked his informative page on how he planned his scam, and carried it through, it was so much more dignified than Dentara's victory rant (and a lot more understandable, too).
And no DS, I'm not a CT alt 
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.23 09:17:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Kalavoz
I agree that some harder to forge evidence would be very nice for all of us.
Having followed the whole drama avidly from start to finish, I'd like to say thanks to all concerned, it was very entertaining
Also, respect to CT.. I liked his informative page on how he planned his scam, and carried it through, it was so much more dignified than Dentara's victory rant (and a lot more understandable, too).
And no DS, I'm not a CT alt
All very true.
Blindly believing Dentara's claim seems silly. He claims the majority of the taken ISK came from alliances. The only way I'll believe that is if the shareholders actually get their ISK back. If they do, it means that the only way he could have still stolen money is if there was a great deal more investment than was made public.
--[23] Member--
Originally by: DB Preacher
The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
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Kieli Rast
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Posted - 2006.08.23 09:58:00 -
[4]
The real question you should be asking is this.....
What implications would there be for someone coming out and saying "hey! Rast scammed us out of 100b! What a tool!"
Maybe they will because im sure that if they are in a 'cold war' at the moment, their enemies wont seize the opportunity to strike them now whilst their finances are in a state...
Please follow the Forum rules (see #3) when creating a signature graphic for your character -Eldo email us for questions. |
Bermag
Point-Zero
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Posted - 2006.08.23 10:25:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kieli Rast
The real question you should be asking is this.....
What implications would there be for someone coming out and saying "hey! Rast scammed us out of 100b! What a tool!"
Maybe they will because im sure that if they are in a 'cold war' at the moment, their enemies wont seize the opportunity to strike them now whilst their finances are in a state...
Maybe the alliances will not admit it but you can tell us. Or are you afraid of hurting their feelings 
BTW, why are you not posting anymore with Dentara? Banned?
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Kieli Rast
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Posted - 2006.08.23 10:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Bermag
Originally by: Kieli Rast
The real question you should be asking is this.....
What implications would there be for someone coming out and saying "hey! Rast scammed us out of 100b! What a tool!"
Maybe they will because im sure that if they are in a 'cold war' at the moment, their enemies wont seize the opportunity to strike them now whilst their finances are in a state...
Maybe the alliances will not admit it but you can tell us. Or are you afraid of hurting their feelings
BTW, why are you not posting anymore with Dentara? Banned?
Im doing it to add to speculation on the whole debate 
Please follow the Forum rules (see #3) when creating a signature graphic for your character -Eldo email us for questions. |
Meena Vifargent
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:18:00 -
[7]
Considering a solo player can make 10 billions in less than a year in empire with no risk (yes he can...) and no robbery, scam or fool play, i'm not sure 100 billions worth a financial drama for any big alliance who can invest such value...
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Semblence
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Posted - 2006.08.23 12:41:00 -
[8]
One of the great advantages of a good con is that the victims are too embarrassed to go to the authorities or state publicly they have been conned. The more they have lost, the more stupid they will look, and the more likely they will be noted as a possible mark for a future con.
Though it didn't happen in this case, a good con frequently relies on the victim supposedly colluding in something illegal or in a legal grey area. Betting, for example, or claiming tax rebates, or facilitating a fictional 3rd party's illegal activity.
Either way, there are strong disincentives for a mark to make public that he's been conned. Natural human embarrassment at being made to look stupid means a good con can be tried successfully over and over. And there will never be a shortage of lazy, greedy people to try them on.
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Inmate 19225004
Crow Logistics
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.08.23 14:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The only way I'll believe that is if the shareholders actually get their ISK back. If they do, it means that the only way he could have still stolen money is if there was a great deal more investment than was made public.
LOL you are sooooo transparent DS.
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Inmate 19225004
Crow Logistics
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.08.23 14:45:00 -
[10]
Comeon Dentara ... Name the top 5 private investors with investment amounts.
Then this heist will have a bit more flair! 
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.23 14:50:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 23/08/2006 14:50:35
Originally by: Inmate 19225004
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The only way I'll believe that is if the shareholders actually get their ISK back. If they do, it means that the only way he could have still stolen money is if there was a great deal more investment than was made public.
LOL you are sooooo transparent DS.
What do you mean?
I have zero EIB shares.
I made a point of avoiding all investment with the EIB. I considered the risk too high for the return.
--[23] Member--
Originally by: DB Preacher
The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
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Riddari
Celestial Fleet
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.23 14:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kieli Rast
What implications would there be for someone coming out and saying "hey! Rast scammed us out of 100b! What a tool!"
Maybe they will because im sure that if they are in a 'cold war' at the moment, their enemies wont seize the opportunity to strike them now whilst their finances are in a state...
That alliance/corporation would have it coming then if it put their faith and most of their ISK into one venture.
I could understand an alliance (I don't believe ASCN is one of the mystery ones who you claim lost ISK) putting a portion of its ISK reserves into a venture which might provide them with profit.
But an alliance putting most of their ISK into it... unthinkable but actually quite possible for some young ones.
¼+¼
a history |
Kieli Rast
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Posted - 2006.08.23 17:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Inmate 19225004
Comeon Dentara ... Name the top 5 private investors with investment amounts.
Then this heist will have a bit more flair!
Im not going to reveal who exactly lost money to this scam, but it is possible that some territory could change hands easily if a few wars were to start out.
Despite what alliances like to boast, none are really that well off in terms of disposable capital.
The biggest asset alliances have is their territory and their members. They rely on members using their own finances to buy ships, equipment, etc etc.
I dont think one alliance would be prepared to finance every members pvp within its ranks, so in effect if one has lost 100b to me, or even more then it certainly isnt just a drop in the ocean to them. It could be potentially disasterous.
Certain individuals withing the alliance may be well off, but I would be suprised if any alliance except BOB had 500m per pilot in disposable income in its 'fund'.
Even if its members are well off, this doesnt mean they will use all of their wealth to defend that alliance.
Please follow the Forum rules (see #3) when creating a signature graphic for your character -Eldo email us for questions. |
Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2006.08.23 21:24:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Heikki on 23/08/2006 21:25:37
Originally by: Kieli Rast
Im not going to reveal who exactly lost money to this scam
I am starting to think that your biggest scam wasn't EIB; it was making everyone believe you scored really big. Although I would love to be proven wrong.
-Lasse
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.23 21:34:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 23/08/2006 21:34:12
Originally by: Heikki
Edited by: Heikki on 23/08/2006 21:25:37
Originally by: Kieli Rast
Im not going to reveal who exactly lost money to this scam
I am starting to think that your biggest scam wasn't EIB; it was making everyone believe you scored really big. Although I would love to be proven wrong.
-Lasse
I have strongly suspected that since the start.
It is just as possible that Rast robbed very little, and that Kal and the like are his alts (regardless of his denials) and simply exist to support the "fact" that he stole so much ISK.
But we really don't know.
--[23] Member--
Originally by: DB Preacher
The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
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Wolfgang Jager
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.08.23 22:00:00 -
[16]
I don't think it matters really. This guy has proven that he is a pathological liar and he appears more than a bit unstable. There is really no way we'll ever be able to verify how much he scammed, from who, when or how. Heck we can't even pin down how many alts, other accounts and whatnot he is in control of.
Given the total lack of class, style or any sort of rational post-scam expose, who cares how much he swindled some idiots for? EIB was a ridiculously bad investment risk from the start, so frankly he only swiped money from morons. (And yes I include EMFI in that - the fact that EMFI bought into EIB shows that their management is totally clueless)
As for infamy - who cares if he gets credit for the "biggest" heist or whatever...he has the "weirdest" title solidly to himself. This whole bad comedic drama has been the best entertainment in the market forum's history; he won't be forgotten, regardless of how much or little he actually made off with.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.23 22:10:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 23/08/2006 22:14:00
The more I read, the less I'm inclined to believe this. Besides it's not like you can't be good with photoshop and do a masterful edit of your wallet.
It would be interesting to know which 'big investors' gave him the 'billions' though.
Bob? ASCN? MC? Why would any of them bother?
Cap charger II owners? The guy with 19 of the 20 cloak II BPOs? People like that prbably have a hrd enough time thinking of what to spend ISK on.
When I physically see you logged in with the ISK, or you place it all in a tradw window with me, I'll believe you, until then, I say your biggest 'scam' is making people believe you stole far more than you really did.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.08.23 22:31:00 -
[18]
ISK in trade window is actually a good idea.
While a lot of people have a lot more then just 500b in assets, hardly anyone has more then 50b ISK at any given time due to the nature of t2 BPOs as a "real" investment.
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Semblence
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Posted - 2006.08.23 22:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I have strongly suspected that since the start.
It is just as possible that Rast robbed very little, and that Kal and the like are his alts (regardless of his denials) and simply exist to support the "fact" that he stole so much ISK.
But we really don't know.
Eh? I thought you only called people on their lies when you were 100% certain. Good to see you've adapted.
Whatever, that's some weird motivation being attibuted to Rast now. "Ha ha! I have convinced everyone I am the greatest scammer of Eve, when in fact I am not! Truely, I am the greatest scammer of Eve to have convinced people that I am the greatest scammer of Eve."
Well Farjung (I think) has at least one very expensive killmail, I guess someone can add up all Rast's losses from his crazy PvP adventures in the next few months. He could even do it himself, get a nice running total going on the forums, just to twist the knife a bit more as his victims see how their ISK is being used.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.23 23:58:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 23/08/2006 23:58:24
Originally by: Semblence
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I have strongly suspected that since the start.
It is just as possible that Rast robbed very little, and that Kal and the like are his alts (regardless of his denials) and simply exist to support the "fact" that he stole so much ISK.
But we really don't know.
Eh? I thought you only called people on their lies when you were 100% certain. Good to see you've adapted.
I'm not calling him on a lie. I'm suggesting the possibility.
I did the exact same thing every time something suspicious happened with the EIB. I suggested two possibilities: one explanining the suspicious happening in a positive manner (non-scam) and one taking the more cynical path.
As I have done here.
The difference, however, is that before, the question was whether to trust someone who had not scammed yet, versus trusting someone who has already scammed (Dentara). As Dentara has already lied plenty, I have a hard time believing him.
--[23] Member--
Originally by: DB Preacher
The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
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liquidism
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.24 02:08:00 -
[21]
i scammed 977 bil out of some major alliances.. want a screenie as proof? 
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.24 04:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: liquidism
i scammed 977 bil out of some major alliances.. want a screenie as proof?
I can beat that. I scammed 7573611 trillion out of CONCORD itself!
--[23] Member--
Originally by: DB Preacher
The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
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Aversin
Gallente
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.24 04:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 23/08/2006 22:14:00
The more I read, the less I'm inclined to believe this. Besides it's not like you can't be good with photoshop and do a masterful edit of your wallet.
It would be interesting to know which 'big investors' gave him the 'billions' though.
Bob? ASCN? MC? Why would any of them bother?
Cap charger II owners? The guy with 19 of the 20 cloak II BPOs? People like that prbably have a hrd enough time thinking of what to spend ISK on.
When I physically see you logged in with the ISK, or you place it all in a tradw window with me, I'll believe you, until then, I say your biggest 'scam' is making people believe you stole far more than you really did.
Again with the cloak II thing, that simply isn't true, I know at least 3 people off the top of my head with t2 cloak bpos.
Originally by: Razner Cerizo
They will never quit. The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
I fly a starship, I'm not some freaking elf with magic pantaloons tha |
turnschuh
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Posted - 2006.08.24 05:35:00 -
[24]
probably all the greedy t2 BPO holders who live in empire all day and not in any alliance.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.24 11:27:00 -
[25]
Transfer the ISK to me, I'll verify it with screenshots, fraps and live-stream and then transfer it back. That should be evidence enough 
EVE-Files | EVE-Search | Monitor this Thread |
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.24 11:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kieli Rast
Originally by: Inmate 19225004
Comeon Dentara ... Name the top 5 private investors with investment amounts.
Then this heist will have a bit more flair!
Im not going to reveal who exactly lost money to this scam, but it is possible that some territory could change hands easily if a few wars were to start out.
Despite what alliances like to boast, none are really that well off in terms of disposable capital.
The biggest asset alliances have is their territory and their members. They rely on members using their own finances to buy ships, equipment, etc etc.
I dont think one alliance would be prepared to finance every members pvp within its ranks, so in effect if one has lost 100b to me, or even more then it certainly isnt just a drop in the ocean to them. It could be potentially disasterous.
Certain individuals withing the alliance may be well off, but I would be suprised if any alliance except BOB had 500m per pilot in disposable income in its 'fund'.
Even if its members are well off, this doesnt mean they will use all of their wealth to defend that alliance.
I think your analysis is incoherent here. On the one hand you say alliances don't fund their members PvP (correct I'd say), on the other hand 'territory could change hands' due to this. How can both be correct?
If Alliances don't fund their members PvP, the loss of 100b means very little for the PvP ability of alliances. It can cripple them financially in the sense that getting certain new things will be hard, but the basic defense of territory is funded by members, not alliances.
And an alliance 'fund' for PvP would have to be so obscenely large for many alliances that 100b wouldn't matter much.
I'm an 8 month old player with well over a billion worth of combat/PvP assets, and I am pretty far away from capital ships. And I am not really satisfied with my assets for PvP to be honest. To be reasonably ready and for me to feel comfortable before a big war, I think I would want to have about 3-4 billion of PvP-assets at least, excluding any capital ships. IF you were to extrapolate that to an alliance size asset base, we're talking several trillion.
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Splagada
Minmatar
Achuran Advanced Systems Technology
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Posted - 2006.08.24 11:51:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Splagada on 24/08/2006 11:51:28
i wonder about all the fascination about this scam
at the end of the day it's a game. what's left? oh i screwed a lot of people in a game
what's the big deal there? he's the bad guy? where is the fun now for him?
it's not like he's gonna be able to sell all on ebay
i thought scamming was against the terms of service, so wont he just get banned?
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AAST is looking for a mining director and miners |
Femintaki
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.24 16:36:00 -
[28]
Originally by: turnschuh
probably all the greedy t2 BPO holders who live in empire all day and not in any alliance.
hehe - this one made me smile 
Quote:
Do or do not - there is no try!
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.24 18:17:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Splagada
Edited by: Splagada on 24/08/2006 11:51:28
i wonder about all the fascination about this scam
at the end of the day it's a game. what's left? oh i screwed a lot of people in a game
what's the big deal there? he's the bad guy? where is the fun now for him?
it's not like he's gonna be able to sell all on ebay
i thought scamming was against the terms of service, so wont he just get banned?
I could sell every last ISK Rast has, on ebay, and not get in trouble with CCP in doing so.
Am I going to say how? **** no. Ebays need to be killed off, not multiplied.
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Vargrh
Gallente
Stupid People Always Need Killing
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Posted - 2006.08.24 22:44:00 -
[30]
He should sell it all on ebay, then use the money to hire a server administration consultant to sort the load balancing issues out at CCP and become a 'eve universe' hero...
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