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Proposal: Minmatar ship fixes

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xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.08.24 19:58:00 - [61] Right right reduce the AC falloff.That wouldn't kill minmatar at all. So we shouldn't have range that can do enough damage to break you're tank? So that we do have to get in range so you can *****us with blasters? As if webbing a tempest was such a hard task.And once they nerf ECM and NOS its going to be probably the worst battleship.As currently ECM acts as the Dice per say that decides if you get a CHANCE to win.If it does jam your target then you can trying and break some distance.And the NOS makes it harder for them to MWD and keep up the tank. Sweet so you want us to have no tank,no gank,no range+speed combo(at least not good enough to be usefull).Basicly you wan't a easy target until the minmatar pilots can trian a megathron?As if there wasn't already enough reason to do so. ugh gallante the new caldarie =\ CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| ..SIN is closed.New sig coming soon!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.24 20:09:00 - [62] Shadowsword, sure, and when nobody flys AC ships anyone... er... The Claw does not need any from of bonus, but nerfing AC's leaves it a useless relic, since all it CAN do is fight. Increasing the PG leaves Minmatar, allready with low DPS, unable to fit supporting modules and basically useless in combat. Reducing the falloff would cut the effective range to little more than the far higher DPS blaster, in addition. OMG, they use no cap. Yes, Minmatar ships cap recharge rate is poor. Several have less effective cap rcharge than equivalent sized Amarr ships WHILE the Amarr ships are firing their weapons! As for T2 amo, it's ALL broken and should go. Focusing on any specific problem is biased. Oh, and a (12.5%) range penalty on WCS will also hurt many Vaga setups a lot! "Medium pulse 2: 12 powergrid Neutron blaster II: 12 powergrid standard launcher II: 9 powergrid 200mm autocanon II: 4 powergrid Basically the same for CPU. Reasonable?" Completely and utterly biased on your part. For starters, Rockets and NOT Standard missiles are the equivalent of close range guns, you're deliverately distorting the picture. Second, compare neutron and 200mm AC DPS, the neutron is a LOT higher. And then the Amarr ships...yes, it's too high even with their range advantage but that is an AMARR issue not a MINMATAR one! By the time you've figured in the lower Minmatar cap recharge, it works. Celeste Storm, that you don't even understand that higher damage means higher killmaill position is telling. It's quite clear that Ekundo did the final blow, it's LABLED on the killmail. And killmails are the only solid measure of proof that exist. If you want to stay in denial, feel free. Amy Wang, Claw with 3 mids would be totally overpowered. It dosn't need changing.
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.24 20:20:00 - [63] Originally by: Maya Rkell Claw with 3 mids would be totally overpowered. It dosn't need changing. The claw needs more locking range. Its a useless pile of crap without it.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.24 20:21:00 - [64] Just because you can't use it as you want dosn't mean it's not useful. No, it's not a good arty ship. shrugs It needs a high level of both player and character skill to use. And in the right hands, it's lethal. That's fine.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.08.25 10:28:00 - [65] Edited by: Amy Wang on 25/08/2006 10:34:13 Originally by: Maya Rkell Amy Wang, Claw with 3 mids would be totally overpowered. It dosn't need changing. I kinda agree, but as long as there is the Taranis in its current form I think it would be ok. Taranis should lose the drone space to bring it in line with the other ceptors. Originally by: HolographicEntrypoint Originally by: Amy Wang Target Painters: - the only non defensive ew module and arguable the most useless one ehh? whats wrong with it? you want to shred a frig with drones, you paint it. Wrong is that the painter does slightly increase your or/and your mates damage in some situations but all other ew types let you avoid a great chunk (if not all) of the enemy damage. Actually I dont think that there is anything wrong with target painters. They perform a role, no argue there. But I do think minmatar deserves a defensive and as effective ew form as the other races ew.
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:21:00 - [66] All of the below are my own oppinions and I do not claim them as gospel truth,a nd am more than ready to be re-educated by more experienced pilots. My (admittedly very basic) understanding about minmatar fighting philosophy is: "Do more damage unto them before they can pop you". This makes the target painter a very usefull module, and one that features in most of my big ship setups if I know I'm going to face smaller ships (hey how about target painter bonus for nidhogger j/k), but having a mod to reduce incoming damage would be nice because minmatar tank worse than all else to start with. The claw imo is fine as is. Without advanced weapons ups, I can still fit 3 arties and a missile launcher, and even with arty, you only want to be about 11k away from your target (unless it's a minmatar recon cruiser with the web bonus). Sure another med would be nice, but it would make the Claw a tad overpowered, and the price would sky rocket (look at what happened to teh Jag prices when that got boosted! 12 mill to 22mill upwards!!!!), and I like having a cheap T2 ship that I can have fun in and not worry too much about losing. Iirc, by training up Astrometrics, your scan probe launcher needs less CPU to use, and with covert osp trained up so does the cloak. So the Minmatar have to do more training than the other races. Nothing new there! Autocannons are fine as they are Artillery could do with requiring less PG to fit, and a bit more clip size, and a buit less on the refire (I was kinda hoping that AVU would help out, but evedently not ) and the above changes would probably make them a bit overpowered and all teh Caldari pilots would cry Again, r.e. the Wolf, an extra med would be nice, but as it is, I am already running at at close to maximum pg / tf, so without those being boosted too, it becomes kind of uselesss, except to boost the price for the higher skilled pilots who can actually make use of the extra slot. And as for double bonuses, How many Caldari / Amarr ships get bonus to resists per level and a single weapons bonus, compared to the Minmatar's double weapons bonuses????? And as for the Vagabond. Leave it the **** alone, I want one, and I want it to be good when I finally get there (skill and isk wise). Has anyone else noticed how the Minmatar Assault ships (light and heavy) only get 2 high armour resists to start with, compared to all other races getting 3! Of course tehy have to be better in other areas. It's called balance! Akkarin Linkage Do not press this button
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:51:00 - [67] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan A Iirc, by training up Astrometrics, your scan probe launcher needs less CPU to use, and with covert osp trained up so does the cloak. So the Minmatar have to do more training than the other races. Nothing new there! Astrometrics: Skill at operating long range scanners. 10% faster scanning with scan probes per level. Well, Cheetah has to fit all lows with Co Proc IIs to fit a cloak and a scan probe launcher with covert skill at 4. All other races covert ops with skill at 4 can fit both modules without a single fitting mod and even have cpu spare for other mods. Its wrong that you have to cramp your lows full with fitting mods or train the skill to 5 to fullfill your role when the other races dont need to do that. I can accept having no cpu spare after fitting cloak and launcher at skill lvl 4 on the cheetah because of the speed advantage or even having to use say 1 Co proc II for that, but having to use 3 and having only like 10 cpu spare is just wrong.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.25 12:03:00 - [68] Originally by: Amy Wang Well, Cheetah has to fit all lows with Co Proc IIs to fit a cloak and a scan probe launcher with covert skill at 4. All other races covert ops with skill at 4 can fit both modules without a single fitting mod and even have cpu spare for other mods. Its wrong that you have to cramp your lows full with fitting mods or train the skill to 5 to fullfill your role when the other races dont need to do that. I can accept having no cpu spare after fitting cloak and launcher at skill lvl 4 on the cheetah because of the speed advantage or even having to use say 1 Co proc II for that, but having to use 3 and having only like 10 cpu spare is just wrong. sigh And what do you use the low slots otherwise if not for CP II? Ah, yes, speed mods. And now just guess where the Cheetah already has an huge advantage? No matter which other cov ops you pick, the cheetah will be faster with 3 CP II than the other cov ops with 1 CP II (for the Helios/Anathema) or none (for the Buzzard) and all other slots filled with nanos.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.08.25 12:56:00 - [69] Originally by: Aramendel sigh And what do you use the low slots otherwise if not for CP II? Ah, yes, speed mods. And now just guess where the Cheetah already has an huge advantage? No matter which other cov ops you pick, the cheetah will be faster with 3 CP II than the other cov ops with 1 CP II (for the Helios/Anathema) or none (for the Buzzard) and all other slots filled with nanos. But they have cpu to spare to fit cap batteries, shield extender, ew or weapons, while the cheetah cant fit anything apart scan launcher and cloak with a maximum on fitting mods. And yes, Ive seen Caladari Covert ops solo killing Interdictors with EW and missiles. Sure, not the intended purpose but it illustrates a lack of fitting options on the Cheetah (read: lack of cpu). As I said: No problem with having to use 1 or even 2 fitting mod to fit cloak and scan launcher and 1 or 2 additional fitting mods to fit anything else, but having to use 3 to fit the basic role defining mods and nothing else is a bit over the top.
Xantina Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:01:00 - [70] Originally by: Amy Wang Edited by: Amy Wang on 23/08/2006 23:24:29 Edited by: Amy Wang on 23/08/2006 13:39:06 Edited by: Amy Wang on 23/08/2006 13:18:21 Muninn: - increase pg by 200 - change 1 high to 1 med Whatever Originally by: Amy Wang Typhoon: - increase pg by 1000ish - reduce build cost by 10 Mio worth - switch shield and armor hp values Good idea Originally by: Amy Wang Nidhoggur: - change remote armor rep duration bonus to 5% fighter damage per lvl (that way there are 2 carriers with tanking bonus and 2 with damage bonus, perfectly balanced) No. The remote shield bonus makes this ship excellent for POS fights. Originally by: Amy Wang Maelstrom: - yes I know its not yet out, but when its out it will take long to fix - intended as shield tanking fleet BS but the planned shield boost bonus is useless in fleet combat - change shield boost bonus to 5% to all shield resists per lvl or 10% shield amount per lvl - make sure it can fit 8 1400 IIs with 0-1 fitting mod Lets not sing the Moaning Minnie Blues before the ship is in. Originally by: Amy Wang Target Painters: - the only non defensive ew module and arguable the most useless one - solution 1: give minmatar ew ships bonuses to one of the other racial ew variants, leave target painters as a module that each race can use equally effective (might even give each ew ship a bonus to a different ew type, minmatar is about variability after all) - solution 2: add a secondary defensive effect to the target painter module, either a weakened version of the effect of one of the other racial ews or a unique effect like a sig radius reduction for the using ship or a sig resolution increase for the targeted ships weapon systems or sth like that) (think of the painting stream as disrupting the targeted ships sensor systems or whatever) Whatever Originally by: Amy Wang Cheetah: - increase base CPU by at least 40, better more Why ?
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:18:00 - [71] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Maya Rkell Claw with 3 mids would be totally overpowered. It dosn't need changing. The claw needs more locking range. Its a useless pile of crap without it. I'm sorry, I'm not following you. Why does the claw need more locking range? Are you firing outside it's locking range? If so why? I mean I assumed the Claw was a interceptor and a frigate right? So why would you need 30km to use autocannons or rockets? Do you plan to use EW with it? I mean do you need range to run 2 ECM or Damps? Maybe run 1 damp and use arties to snipe cruisers? ><
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:19:00 - [72] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Maya Rkell Claw with 3 mids would be totally overpowered. It dosn't need changing. The claw needs more locking range. Its a useless pile of crap without it. I'm sorry, I'm not following you. Why does the claw need more locking range? Are you firing outside it's locking range? If so why? I mean I assumed the Claw was a interceptor and a frigate right? So why would you need 30km to use autocannons or rockets? Do you plan to use EW with it? I mean do you need range to run 2 ECM or Damps? Maybe run 1 damp and use arties to snipe cruisers? >< What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:32:00 - [73] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/08/2006 13:33:09 Originally by: Amy Wang But they have cpu to spare to fit cap batteries, shield extender, ew or weapons, while the cheetah cant fit anything apart scan launcher and cloak with a maximum on fitting mods. And yes, Ive seen Caladari Covert ops solo killing Interdictors with EW and missiles. Sure, not the intended purpose but it illustrates a lack of fitting options on the Cheetah (read: lack of cpu). Exept an cov ops role is not to be a combat ship. Shield extenders, EW, missles are no factor there. cap batteries can help with long warps, but there the limiting factor is powergrid. The role of a cov ops is scouting and providing warpins for your gang. And the cheetah is with it's very high speed perfect there. No, in exchange you cannot use it as an overpriced stealth bomber. But I am gladly unable to do that and instead be better to do that what you will use a covops mainly. Originally by: Jim McGregor What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. Quickest shuttle.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:05:00 - [74] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/08/2006 14:05:43 Originally by: Jim McGregor What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. Killing frigs. A Claw in the right hands can kill AF's. It's not flown extensively because it's not an easy ship to use, but it certainly does have a role. The Ares is a big shuttle....
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 17:27:00 - [75] Originally by: Jim McGregor What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. Killing other inties (I destroyed a friends Crow on Sisi with lesser skills, and aren't they meant to be uber?) Akkarin Linkage Do not press this button
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.25 17:28:00 - [76] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Killing other inties (I destroyed a friends Crow on Sisi with lesser skills, and aren't they meant to be uber?) Well, it comes down to pilot skill... if you web a crow, he pops. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Bazman Caldari The Establishment	Posted - 2006.08.25 17:40:00 - [77] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Originally by: Jim McGregor What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. Killing other inties (I destroyed a friends Crow on Sisi with lesser skills, and aren't they meant to be uber?) Akkarin The only way to kill another inty with a claw is to hope that the other inty is stupid enough to come close to you and stay there while you kill it, otherwise it will either MWD away before you can react and chase, or it will warp off, because chances are you have either a web or scram. Damn 2 mid slot ceptors ----- Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 17:56:00 - [78] Ahh, he couldn't get away becasue I also had MWD and overdrives, and chased him down. Becasue I set an approach and not an orbit, I just sat 2k or so off his tail and pummeled him with 4 hi slots of emp and thorn rocket goodness :) Akkarin Linkage Do not press this button
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.08.25 18:43:00 - [79] The claw can be a tackler. It's not as effective now a days due to WCS usage but you know that's fine. It doesn't have a 3rd mid slot for like a web but you know that's ok too. It can still aid damage in squads. I mean, why fly 5 stilettos when you can fly 2 stilettos and 3 claws? It's a damage dealer as well tackler in some cases. It does decent, and well solo. You're all right when people want to just MWD away or get atleast out of the claws autocannon range but then again it is a claw it has good speeds and autocannons rock. If it gets anywhere in range it's going to take a big chunck out of ship trying to flee away. If not, you're not dead and he is not dead. So why does it really matter? Most solo fights I've gotten in my Claw, have all been inties who wanted to fight and well noone tried to web/run.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.25 19:06:00 - [80] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/08/2006 19:06:30 Originally by: Bazman Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Originally by: Jim McGregor What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. Killing other inties (I destroyed a friends Crow on Sisi with lesser skills, and aren't they meant to be uber?) Akkarin The only way to kill another inty with a claw is to hope that the other inty is stupid enough to come close to you and stay there while you kill it, otherwise it will either MWD away before you can react and chase, or it will warp off, because chances are you have either a web or scram. Damn 2 mid slot ceptors You're accusing some pretty good ceptor pilots of being stupid. And do remember that no scrambler does NOT mean you can't stop someone warping, even if they realise they need to get out in time. With barrage, you can reach out to very nearly the end of web range, and an Inty without a web who faces you is dead meat.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.25 19:19:00 - [81] Just tossing this to the wind: Nidhoggur and Hel -5% Capacitor need for Capital Shield and Armour systems. In other words, both remotes and local repair/boost modules. It won't soak more damage, nor repair more, than the Caldari/Amarr ones, but it can run one more rep if you really try. Will also be able to run remote reps for less cap use - which is what's needed instead of cycle duration. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.25 21:00:00 - [82] Edited by: Mr Peanut on 25/08/2006 21:04:46 Edited by: Mr Peanut on 25/08/2006 21:03:58 Originally by: xeom Also something for the minmatar carriar but i can't think of a replacement for drones. How about less fuel/cap needed per jump? How about you guys come up with a bonus that won't make it wtfpwn all the other ones. Seriously. Two suggested bonuses on first page and both would make it the best carrier by far. IMO the cap bonus for armor systems suggested above is the best one.
Bhoki Tentor	Posted - 2006.08.25 21:55:00 - [83] Originally by: Ithildin Just tossing this to the wind: Nidhoggur and Hel -5% Capacitor need for Capital Shield and Armour systems. In other words, both remotes and local repair/boost modules. It won't soak more damage, nor repair more, than the Caldari/Amarr ones, but it can run one more rep if you really try. Will also be able to run remote reps for less cap use - which is what's needed instead of cycle duration. Either cap reduction(perhaps even more then 5% reduction) or alternatively boost the amount the remotes transfer/repper boost which would improve boost/s and boost/cap.
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.25 22:43:00 - [84] The claw is a pile of crap. Autocannons on a claw are stupid. A rifter with auto's beats a claw with auto's. Any other high speed ceptor will keep you at range while killing you...or if you use a web he'll just warp away. Auto's also put you into web/nos/drone/smartbomb range and you'll get chewed up by any bigger ships easily. And probably get podkilled too. Artillery on a claw also sucks because you can't run a long range faction disruptor and stay out of nos range, which makes you worthless against any bs with a nos and drones. Its also nearly impossible to tank a claw (for the autocannon setups) because it has horrible cpu issues. The rifter is much easier to fit, and at close range it can web and scram and still have a tank + autos. /emote farts on the claw.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.08.25 23:10:00 - [85] Originally by: Mr Peanut Edited by: Mr Peanut on 25/08/2006 21:04:46 Edited by: Mr Peanut on 25/08/2006 21:03:58 Originally by: xeom Also something for the minmatar carriar but i can't think of a replacement for drones. How about less fuel/cap needed per jump? How about you guys come up with a bonus that won't make it wtfpwn all the other ones. Seriously. Two suggested bonuses on first page and both would make it the best carrier by far. IMO the cap bonus for armor systems suggested above is the best one. So it is the best carrier if it gets the very same bonus another carrier already has? Care to elaborate the sudden uberness you are supposing? Is it the extra mid slot in comparison to the thanatos or the one low slot less even? The Thanatos has even more hitpoints. Maybe I missed your sarcasm, sry in that case. And all bonuses suggested that have anything to do with improving remote reppers are nearly as bad as the present bonus. Very weak, next to useless and require extra training to be utilitized at all. Would be a different story if carriers were actually viable as fleet line ships repairing each other and other ships but that would require so much changes to actually work that I dont see it happen.

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