EVE Search - Proposal: Minmatar ship fixes

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Proposal: Minmatar ship fixes

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.08.23 13:17:00 - [1] Edited by: Amy Wang on 23/08/2006 13:18:21 Muninn: - increase pg by 200 - change 1 high to 1 med Typhoon: - increase pg by 1000ish - reduce build cost by 10 Mio worth - switch shield and armor hp values Nidhoggur: - change remote armor rep duration bonus to 5% fighter damage per lvl (that way there are 2 carriers with tanking bonus and 2 with damage bonus, perfectly balanced) Maelstorm: - yes I know its not yet out, but when its out it will take long to fix - intended as shield tanking fleet BS but the planned shield boost bonus is useless in fleet combat - change shield boost bonus to 5% to all shield resists per lvl or 10% shield amount per lvl - make sure it can fit 8 1400 IIs with 0-1 fitting mod Target Painters: - the only non defensive ew module and arguable the most useless one - solution 1: give minmatar ew ships bonuses to one of the other racial ew variants, leave target painters as a module that each race can use equally effective (might even give each ew ship a bonus to a different ew type, minmatar is about variability after all) - solution 2: add a secondary defensive effect to the target painter module, either a weakened version of the effect of one of the other racial ews or a unique effect like a sig radius reduction for the using ship or a sig resolution increase for the targeted ships weapon systems or sth like that) (think of the painting stream as disrupting the targeted ships sensor systems or whatever)
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.23 13:28:00 - [2] Originally by: Amy Wang Muninn: - increase pg by 200 - change 1 high to 1 med PG, yes. Slot change, not needed. Quote: Typhoon: - increase pg by 1000ish - reduce build cost by 10 Mio worth - switch shield and armor hp values Grid yes - although it needs to be more like 2000 total, so about 1600-1700 before skills. Build cost, why not, costing more is random and unfair. Switching HP values, yes, because it's an armour tanker. Quote: Nidhoggur: - change remote armor rep duration bonus to 5% fighter damage per lvl (that way there are 2 carriers with tanking bonus and 2 with damage bonus, perfectly balanced) Meh, carriers, whatever. This would cause outcry among Amarr and Caldari. Try something more unique that we might actually get. Quote: Maelstorm: - yes I know its not yet out, but when its out it will take long to fix - intended as shield tanking fleet BS but the planned shield boost bonus is useless in fleet combat - change shield boost bonus to 5% to all shield resists per lvl or 10% shield amount per lvl - make sure it can fit 8 1400 IIs with 0-1 fitting mod Shield bonus is yawn. Give it a range bonus. It already can fit 8 1400s wit no fitting mod with AWU 5. Quote: Target Painters: - the only non defensive ew module and arguable the most useless one - solution 1: give minmatar ew ships bonuses to one of the other racial ew variants, leave target painters as a module that each race can use equally effective (might even give each ew ship a bonus to a different ew type, minmatar is about variability after all) - solution 2: add a secondary defensive effect to the target painter module, either a weakened version of the effect of one of the other racial ews or a unique effect like a sig radius reduction for the using ship or a sig resolution increase for the targeted ships weapon systems or sth like that) (think of the painting stream as disrupting the targeted ships sensor systems or whatever) The best way to solve this is to make target painters useful. They need changing totally. Scrapheap Challenge! Liverpool Eve CCG Tournament, 02/09/06!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.23 13:38:00 - [3] Its "Maelstrom". And im not convinced I even care about the ship... the old stats certainly made me go into a frenzy of misbelief. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
TuRtLe HeAd The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.08.23 13:42:00 - [4] Quote: Nidhoggur: - change remote armor rep duration bonus to 5% fighter damage per lvl (that way there are 2 carriers with tanking bonus and 2 with damage bonus, perfectly balanced) Give it a bonus to Sheild or rep Duration or increase. NOT Remote Duration. At least give it something. All Carriers EXCEPT minmatar get an Offensive PvP bonus. Caldari - Sheild resist. Amarr- Armour resist. Gallente - Drone Damage. Minmatar - Remote Sheild/Armour bonus ? WTF AM I a Friggin Hospital ship.
Great Artista Earthbound Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.23 13:49:00 - [5] Target painter bonus to somekind of web bonus maybe? Its just an idea, no flaming, im on a SENSITIVE mood today. ------------- ½Artista - One name. One legend.+ -Sloganizer.net
Bhoki Tentor	Posted - 2006.08.23 13:50:00 - [6] I'm prolly one of the few that thinks the minmatar carriers bonus is a bonus that fits with the carrier, unlike the others. However I do think that the duration reduction is the wrong bonus because it also increases cap use of the transfers. A better bonus would be to just directly increase the boost they give(or alternatively give an equal reduction of cap use to keep cap use the same). I see the carriers as support ships keeping others in battle etc. Though the whole concept of supporting modules needs changing first before carrier can fullfill its true role(imo)
Triest Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.23 13:54:00 - [7] I like the idea of the Muninn swapping a high for a mid, but it's not nearly as vital as boosting the grid. I'm 10 days away from it, and I'm struggling mightily to find any reason to use it over my Vagabond for either PVP or PVE purposes; give it the grid to use the artillery with a moderate tank and there would be a reason. A fourth mid would give it the option of doing the shield-tanking-artillery-boat thing that CCP is promoting with the Maelstrom as well.
xKillaH Minmatar The Kru Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2006.08.23 14:44:00 - [8] Edited by: xKillaH on 23/08/2006 14:44:36 /signed Edit: except for the muninn(changing 1 high to 1 med) Need Sig?Gallery
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.23 14:51:00 - [9] People need to stop obsessing over the 720mm guns on Munnins. Really.
Bhoki Tentor	Posted - 2006.08.23 14:54:00 - [10] Originally by: Maya Rkell People need to stop obsessing over the 720mm guns on Munnins. Really. Can't disagree with that really.

Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.23 15:03:00 - [11] Don't mess with the painter bonus's. They are essential for certain tactics. Other than that most of what you said was ok. BUT, HOW COULD YOU FORGET the worst minmater ship ever: THE CLAW. - Claw needs at least an extra 5km of base locking range - The claw needs more cpu. Shamis
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.23 15:09:00 - [12] giggles Shamis, that's nasty. Wait, you were SERIOUS? o.O
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.08.23 15:20:00 - [13] Remove the speed penalty on hail. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| ..SIN is closed.New sig coming soon!
Benglada Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.23 15:22:00 - [14] Originally by: xeom Remove the speed penalty on hail. Yar. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Midnighter Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.08.23 15:24:00 - [15] Breacher - Up the Armour HP and CPU/PG Bellicose - Up Shield HP and CPU/PG Typhoon - More PG + Armour HP Wolf - +1 Mid Cheetah - Extra CPU/PG + velocity
Elaine Threepwood Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.08.23 15:24:00 - [16] IMO muninn grid increase, yes. Slot change, no. All 3 typhoon ideas, definitely. Hail, fix please (remove speed penalty is probably the best solution?). Everything else: meh. Team Minmatar forums
Midnighter Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.08.23 15:42:00 - [17] I'm also happy with the Painter as is. It doesn't nerf your opponents ship as much as the others, but the maount of high damage and wrecking shots it can let a good squad dish out is awesome.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.23 15:47:00 - [18] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/08/2006 15:47:00 Originally by: Benglada Originally by: xeom Remove the speed penalty on hail. Yar. I guess they dont want Vagabonds with hail and no speed penalties... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Triest Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.23 15:59:00 - [19] Edited by: Triest on 23/08/2006 16:01:13 Edited by: Triest on 23/08/2006 16:00:07 Edited by: Triest on 23/08/2006 15:59:16 Originally by: Maya Rkell People need to stop obsessing over the 720mm guns on Munnins. Really. What else are we supposed to put on it? Because last time I checked the Vagabond does autocannons better, and artillery on the Muninn already deals less DPS than the other HACs that function as long range ships. Zealot: 4 Heavy Beam IIs, aurora, 3 HS IIs, 60% min resist, MAR II 240 DPS at 120 km. Eagle: 4 250mm Railgun IIs, spike, 3 MS IIs, 66% min resist 155 DPS at 200 km. Deimos (lol) 4 250mm Railgun IIs, spike, 3 MS IIs, 1 RCU II, 60% min resist 240 DPS at 100 km. Muninn: 5 720mm Howitzer IIs, tremor, 3 Gyrostab IIs, 1 RCU, II, either 10 or 25% min resist, no armor rep. 220 DPS at ~110 km. 5 650mm Howitzer IIs, tremor, 3 Gyrostab IIs, 2 hardeners, 60% min resist, no armor rep. 215 DPS at ~90 km. Oh, and for fun: Cerberus: 5 Heavy Missile Launcher IIs, 3 BCS IIs, minimum resist at least 60% 300 DPS out to 150 km For a ship which is the 'very definition of a gunboat' the Muninn seems to stack rather poorly with the other HACs. It has the worst DPS of the longer range ships (save the Eagle), while not having any range advantage to compensate.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.08.23 16:07:00 - [20] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 23/08/2006 16:07:16 Eagle and Zealot have no drone support. Hence the DPS decrease. Not everything is about sniper. Hence the quoted comment.

Triest Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.23 16:10:00 - [21] Edited by: Triest on 23/08/2006 16:11:52 Edited by: Triest on 23/08/2006 16:11:26 Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 23/08/2006 16:07:16 Eagle and Zealot have no drone support. Hence the DPS decrease. Not everything is about sniper. Hence the quoted comment. We already have the Vagabond if we want close range combat, and it does the job better than the Muninn. If you've got magical drones that can hit at 100km+, I'd like some. The Muninn's a decent close range ship that can fit a heavy tank, but that's not its intended role at all, and it really needs a fix if it's going to be comparable to the other longer range HACs. I mean, really, if the Deimos, arguably one of the 'badly in need of a fix' HACs, and a close range blasterboat by role, can deal more DPS at comparable ranges as the Muninn, with a better tank besides, that tells you something.
Bhoki Tentor	Posted - 2006.08.23 16:24:00 - [22] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/08/2006 15:47:00 Originally by: Benglada Originally by: xeom Remove the speed penalty on hail. Yar. I guess they dont want Vagabonds with hail and no speed penalties... If that would be the reason for giving hail a speed penalty, i'd quit the game... My take, give hail a 30% falloff penalty (like void has an additional 30% penalty to optimal range(0.5 -30% = 0.35 or -65%))
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.08.23 16:33:00 - [23] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 23/08/2006 16:35:41 Originally by: Triest Edited by: Triest on 23/08/2006 16:11:52 Edited by: Triest on 23/08/2006 16:11:26 Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 23/08/2006 16:07:16 Eagle and Zealot have no drone support. Hence the DPS decrease. Not everything is about sniper. Hence the quoted comment. We already have the Vagabond if we want close range combat, and it does the job better than the Muninn. If you've got magical drones that can hit at 100km+, I'd like some. The Muninn's a decent close range ship that can fit a heavy tank, but that's not its intended role at all, and it really needs a fix if it's going to be comparable to the other longer range HACs. I mean, really, if the Deimos, arguably one of the 'badly in need of a fix' HACs, and a close range blasterboat by role, can deal more DPS at comparable ranges as the Muninn, with a better tank besides, that tells you something. It's not about having drones go up to 100km range (would be useless if they could). It's about having support from frigates being that's really the only fear you should have when sniping other than covert op/recons. Which can be avoided at ease due to recab times and warp in delays/lags. Yes, the Vagabond is a much better autocannon hac. Not due to the dps it has, being obviously the Muninn has more DPS potential than the Vagabond. It's due to the speed, agility, and falloff bonus to put it out of range of any Muninn autocannon. We should all know, you can't just kill a vagabond with heavy missiles and drones. None the less, the Muninn can be very useful as a sniper. The bonuses it has can be looked at more of a role for sniper. However, like I stated above. It has other support as well. Like the example of drones, being there is not just just damage drones anymore. You have all different style drones in the new EVE. I personaly think the Muninn is fine. I love it with autocannons and I love it with Arty's. One man sniper is never good and it's not something I want to use to solo a battleship or even a decent cruiser setup. I would want to just use it, to get the jump on lone frigs and tech II frigs. Anything else, well is ment for autocannons and complete close range smackdown as the Vagabond does well. Being vaga's are 200+ on market and muninns can be as low as 90-100m. I will OP for a automuninn over a vaga and take the weakness to Vagabond barrage and pg/range gimpness with arties fitted.
voidvim Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.23 16:38:00 - [24] /signed lots of good points on this thread but I personal like the targer painter minmatar often have the most differnt type of weapon system and target painters work for them all.
Caillech Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.08.23 18:49:00 - [25] Edited by: Caillech on 23/08/2006 18:49:36 The Muninn is fine IMO for its role. Sure, it is hard to fit the 720s and creates its challenges, but you can do it. DPS is not an accurate metric for snipers - the value and likelihood of a salvo after the second drops off significantly. Maybe its DPS is a little lower, but that alpha is monstrous. It has its limitations, but no more so than the others. Don't touch the Phoon, either - we have plenty of other things to worry about that I would put ahead in priority. The Nid's bonuses are indeed a joke compared to the other carriers. One big complaint is that you have to do substantial additional training to be able to take advantage of both bonuses, while the other races don't. It seems they are trying to apply consistent racial bonuses across ships. For tanking, that's boosting for Gal/Min and resists for Amarr/Caldari. Since that doesn't work here, they tried to carry over the Gallente drone strength, but couldn't carry over Minmatar projectile damage, so they gave up and slapped on two remote rep bonuses. Minmatar: Red-headed Stepchildren of Eve Exhibit AA-27b. Maybe they can look at a hefty boost of gang mod bonus. That would give the versatility they look for with Minmatar ships. It's not a front-line/combat bonus but could be tasty without being imbalancing.
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/08/2006 15:47:00 Originally by: Benglada Originally by: xeom Remove the speed penalty on hail. Yar. I guess they dont want Vagabonds with hail and no speed penalties... Yes so lets screw up everone else too \o/.It needs a Buff plain a simple. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| ..SIN is closed.New sig coming soon!
Lord Violent	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:42:00 - [27] Muninn - Grid, Maybee I was under the impression its arty that needs fixing and not the muninn. Slots, well could lose a high but id like a low for it, id also like a vaga with 5 missile hardpoints while were there please. Phoon - HP's on the tanked part, yes please. Hog - 7.5% Tracking And how could you forget the bane of minnies everywhere. Fix the godamn cheetah having to use 3 co-pro 2's with maxed fitting skills at cov ops lvl4 just to fit a cloak and probe launcher is 4tl.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:44:00 - [28] Triest, you're obsessing over 720's again. One little change in gun size and you get a MWD and a rep AND the rest.
Triest Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:19:00 - [29] Edited by: Triest on 23/08/2006 20:22:41 Edited by: Triest on 23/08/2006 20:20:13 Originally by: Maya Rkell Triest, you're obsessing over 720's again. One little change in gun size and you get a MWD and a rep AND the rest. No one would fit artillery with an MWD on a Muninn; you need that midslot for a sensor booster so you can actually target past 70 km. Not to mention that you can't fit 650mm IIs and an MWD and a medium rep without an RCU II. Even if you do downgrade to 650 IIs, and use a standard 2 tracking comp/sensor booster II loadout, you still can only barely fit a named medium armor rep, T2 doesn't fit. In exchange, your effective range drops by over 20 to barely 100 km, and DPS and alpha strike suffer as well. The only reason to use artillery, as has been ground into our heads, is because they do more alpha strike than other guns, and using the lower tier weapons removes even that. It's not like the DPS comes even close to other guns. So you're right, I do want to be able to use 720s, and I'd like to not waste two high slots. But that's not really an option right now, hence my complaining. I do think that my arguments are logical, however, particularly in comparison to the other HACs.
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.08.23 23:44:00 - [30] Also something for the minmatar carriar but i can't think of a replacement for drones. How about less fuel/cap needed per jump? CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| ..SIN is closed.New sig coming soon!

Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.23 23:50:00 - [31] Triest, heh. Except I did. 4 weeks, 94 kills. And yes, a RCUII. A MWD, a T2 rep and so on. "Barely" 100km is more than enough except for gate camping. And you get kills like this: http://bdsm.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=662 I'm not on top because I didn't do much damage! (Plenty of other examples too) The DPS difference between 650 and 720 is minimal.
Alan Bell Gallente Shiva	Posted - 2006.08.24 02:11:00 - [32] make Minm carrier affect fighter speed maybe? speed seems logical... +5-10% per lvl. http://coldfusion.online-guild.com
Triest Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.24 02:35:00 - [33] Originally by: Maya Rkell Triest, heh. Except I did. 4 weeks, 94 kills. And yes, a RCUII. A MWD, a T2 rep and so on. "Barely" 100km is more than enough except for gate camping. And you get kills like this: http://bdsm.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=662 I'm not on top because I didn't do much damage! (Plenty of other examples too) The DPS difference between 650 and 720 is minimal. I'm still not sure why you would possibly think an MWD is a good module to fit while gatecamping in a sniping cruiser, particularly when you're camping with about 10 friendly battleships as well. You'd be far better served fitting a sensor booster or tracking computer there instead. As for 650 vs 720, as I stated in my post the 650s don't just lack in DPS, although it is lower than 720s. The larger problems are have significantly worse alphastrike damage, as well as shorter range. Just because you have top score on killmails, something that artillery users frequently encounter, doesn't mean that a ship is balanced. In particular, a response to the fact that every other long range HAC can either engage at vastly longer range or deal more DPS at equivalent range WHILE MAINTAINING A TANK would be a good way to start.
Blind Man Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.24 02:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Maya Rkell People need to stop obsessing over the 720mm guns on Munnins. Really. yep, right click, sell, solves all muninn problems KilROCK's Forum Assistant
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.08.24 03:08:00 - [35] Originally by: Maya Rkell And you get kills like this: http://bdsm.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=662 Why are you quoting kills vs ships you couldn't solo with the muninn? There is like 5 other people in that kill mail that pretty much got the DPS over you that pretty much killed the victim in that mail. On top of that, all of your Muninn killmails are not solo. They're grouped and in empire none the less. boggles on why you're even speaking on the matter
Acerus Malum Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.08.24 03:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Amy Wang Muninn: - increase pg by 200 - change 1 high to 1 med Originally by: Lord Violent Muninn - Grid, Maybee I was under the impression its arty that needs fixing and not the muninn. Yup, I think it was Tux (?) who said that if you increase a ship's PG to comfortably fit artillery, then it will have absolutely silly PG when it fits autocannons. The dev's would just prefer to tweak artillery requirements and countertweak certain Min ships in response.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.24 04:16:00 - [37] Triest, oh that'd be it then. I don't camp. Fast moving small group combat is far more my forte. Famine Aligher'ri, what has solo got to do with it? I used it in small gangs, yes. In an Empire war, yes. Very successfully. And THAT is what counts.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.08.24 04:32:00 - [38] Originally by: Maya Rkell Famine Aligher'ri, what has solo got to do with it? I used it in small gangs, yes. In an Empire war, yes. Very successfully. And THAT is what counts. The point is, in the killmail you quoted and in a number of other killmails you have on that board. You could of been in a noobship and still got the same kills. It doesn't make the noobship a pwnmobile. So I have no clue why you quoted it in your argument. It makes no sense other than the fact you fly in a gang, and add damage support to the main damage deals. As for empire wars. Umm yeah, ok...
FawKa Gallente Nova Elements The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.24 04:36:00 - [39] It sounds like you got a fitting problem with one of your setups - and your solution is to get the pg you need. Any ship cant fit the best T2 all over all slots. And the carrier - no. Gallente is the best drone race and the race that goes for pure dmg bonuses. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=369662&page=1#10 Link to banner
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.24 04:48:00 - [40] Famine Aligher'ri, the point is I'm at the TOP of those mails. The highest damage dealer. This is highly significant even if you don't want to see it. I was the main damage dealer.

Kyguard LFC 3rd Front Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.24 05:37:00 - [41] Originally by: Maya Rkell Famine Aligher'ri, the point is I'm at the TOP of those mails. The highest damage dealer. This is highly significant even if you don't want to see it. I was the main damage dealer. The damage dealt ladder means nothing if the circumstances aren't known. For example: http://bdsm.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=662 I did more dmg than a raven and zealot, rax is overpowered, nerf. I'm surprised you'd use a killmail as an example for this arguement.. === God is on the side with the best artillery.
TuRtLe HeAd The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.08.24 07:59:00 - [42] Originally by: Bhoki Tentor I'm prolly one of the few that thinks the minmatar carriers bonus is a bonus that fits with the carrier, unlike the others. However I do think that the duration reduction is the wrong bonus because it also increases cap use of the transfers. A better bonus would be to just directly increase the boost they give(or alternatively give an equal reduction of cap use to keep cap use the same). I see the carriers as support ships keeping others in battle etc. Though the whole concept of supporting modules needs changing first before carrier can fullfill its true role(imo) But The Problem is that ALL carriers get a Standard Bonus to remote Stuff. its when it come s to the racial bonus that Minmatar get the short Straw. Minmatar Remote repping ? Thats completely out of character for them. Did some big fat brutor dude suddenly wake up one morning and decide, im gonna design a ship thats never gonna see its enemy ? Agreed fighting styles of carriers is very diffent due to the fact its fighters can be assigned to other players. If Amarr, Caldari , Gallente are allowed PvP bonuses, Why aren't Minmatar ? Its bad enough that the ships gimped in other areas also. Not everyone wants to leave a carrier at a Safespot while the Fighters go out and kill something (Though Most would like to) Make the Fighters Get a Bonus to tracking per level or something. I dunno. Just Ditch the most pointless Double bonus in game a ships ever had. approximately 2 billion it costs to fly a nidhogghur Thats alot of isk to Sit at a Safe with remote reppers fitting.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.24 08:53:00 - [43] Originally by: Amy Wang Muninn: - increase pg by 200 - change 1 high to 1 med Typhoon: - increase pg by 1000ish - reduce build cost by 10 Mio worth - switch shield and armor hp values Nidhoggur: - change remote armor rep duration bonus to 5% fighter damage per lvl (that way there are 2 carriers with tanking bonus and 2 with damage bonus, perfectly balanced) Maelstrom: - yes I know its not yet out, but when its out it will take long to fix - intended as shield tanking fleet BS but the planned shield boost bonus is useless in fleet combat - change shield boost bonus to 5% to all shield resists per lvl or 10% shield amount per lvl - make sure it can fit 8 1400 IIs with 0-1 fitting mod Target Painters: - the only non defensive ew module and arguable the most useless one - solution 1: give minmatar ew ships bonuses to one of the other racial ew variants, leave target painters as a module that each race can use equally effective (might even give each ew ship a bonus to a different ew type, minmatar is about variability after all) - solution 2: add a secondary defensive effect to the target painter module, either a weakened version of the effect of one of the other racial ews or a unique effect like a sig radius reduction for the using ship or a sig resolution increase for the targeted ships weapon systems or sth like that) (think of the painting stream as disrupting the targeted ships sensor systems or whatever) Cheetah: - increase base CPU by at least 40, better more CCP don't want to increase the powergrid of the Munnin because it would have the potential to give some ugly AC+1600 plate results. I agree on most of those changes, but you forgot some things needed to really balance them out: - Up the powergrid requirements of autocanons, espescially the small variants. - Reduce the falloff of autocanons by a good 25-30%, OR don't give minmatars a falloff-enhancing T2 ammo. The effective range it gives to Vaggabonds and T2 AC tempests is a joke. - Increase by 50-100% the magazine space of artilleries. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.08.24 09:15:00 - [44] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 24/08/2006 09:20:39 Why does the Typhoon need more grid? It can already fit 4 T2 autocannons (Dual 425mm), 4x Siege Launcher II's and a tank (plate + rep). Compare that to a Dominix, can fit 6x T2 blasters (Electrons) and a tank (plate + rep) only with an RCU II. Both need AWU to silly level to fit, both are Tier 1 BS's afterall, fitting Tech II weapons. Cost/HP distribution changes seem fair enough, never understood why the typhoon was 75M, and an armour tanking ship with more shields than armour is silly. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.24 09:25:00 - [45] Originally by: Shadowsword - Reduce the falloff of autocanons by a good 25-30%, OR don't give minmatars a falloff-enhancing T2 ammo. The effective range it gives to Vaggabonds and T2 AC tempests is a joke. I thought the point of autocannons was to outrange blasters? And the range on the Vagabond is a ship bonus, designed to make sure it can stay at range, since it has hardly any tank. Its a fast hit and run ship, and it needs good range to do it. If you nerf the Vagabond, I think you will notice how about 0% of players pick minmatar ships to start with. They already have almost no strengths compared to gallente ffs. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Celeste Storm Gallente Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion	Posted - 2006.08.24 09:25:00 - [46] Originally by: Maya Rkell Famine Aligher'ri, the point is I'm at the TOP of those mails. The highest damage dealer. This is highly significant even if you don't want to see it. I was the main damage dealer. All I see is that u actually _managed_ it to kill a tempest with 9 of ur corp mates. 9 other ships including 7 BS, a HAC and a ceptor - big deal... big deal. As Famine already said I fail to see any significance concerning this topic, too. Btw, as far as I understand killmails m8, ur on the top of the list because u laid the final blow. Cel. whiners make m3 s!ck \| Do you like farmers?
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.08.24 10:57:00 - [47] Edited by: Amy Wang on 24/08/2006 10:57:37 - added the Cheetah, sry I forgot it in the first place and yes it is ridiculus that it cant even fit a cloak and a probe launcher with skill lvl 4 without cramming the lows full of CoProc. IIs -regarding Carrier problem: I dont get it why people have so much problems with the idea of giving the minmatar carrier a useful bonus in form of a damage bonus for fighters. It is a working bonus and by no means overpowered (if it was the gallente carrier should lose the bonus) and if anything having two ships with this bonus applied makes it MORE balanced. Also it makes sense roleplay and lore wise. Sure gallente is "the" dronerace but fighters arent drones but small manned attack crafts (sounds like minmatar to me). Even if they were drones it still makes sense because minmatar are closely tied with gallente and widely regardes as the secondary drone race anyway. So instead of thinking about a shiny "unique" bonus for the Nid. and ending up with a useless one that makes the ship as crappy as now, stop waisting time and give it an existing and working bonus. -regarding the propoesed AC and Arty changes: Sure Artys could use a magazine boost, no argument there. But seriously you want to nerf AC falloff? You realize that AC already have the worst tracking, lowest optimal range, lowest dps and highest ammo usage of all short range weapons? You also realise that being forced to fight deep into falloff reduces the damage even more? This is somehow balanced by high falloff, reasonable fitting reqs. and zero cap use. If anything was unbalanced by introduction of t2 ammo and needs a nerf it is the blasters and not the ac. The range advantage means not much if you have to fight in 20k scramble range anyway. (yea free faction scramblers for all minni pilots could also solve that problem gg) - regarding the Claw & Wolf: I too see the problem of having only 2 mid slots. Maybe it would be an option to change the missile high point to a mid slot since simply adding another mid could be a bit too much. The missile/utility slot however is a minmatar trade mark, a not very usefull trademark sure, but still a trademark . Maybe this would be a bit overpowered, but then again we have the taranis with room for 2 light drones on top of the normal armament, a feature which no other inty gets. Compared to that it wouldnt be in the least overpowered to simply add another mid to Claw and Wolf.
Seramis Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.24 11:09:00 - [48] Originally by: Amy Wang Edited by: Amy Wang on 24/08/2006 10:57:37 - added the Cheetah, sry I forgot it in the first place and yes it is ridiculus that it cant even fit a cloak and a probe launcher with skill lvl 4 without cramming the lows full of CoProc. IIs ... Also with Covert Ops at Level 5 you can fit a Probe Launcher and have 5 CPU for all other slots to fill (ok, Cloaking device does not need any CPU at this level). So for a half decent fitting I still need 2 Co Proc II to get enough CPU to fill the slots, that sucks :(
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.08.24 11:12:00 - [49] Originally by: Acerus Malum Originally by: Amy Wang Muninn: - increase pg by 200 - change 1 high to 1 med Originally by: Lord Violent Muninn - Grid, Maybee I was under the impression its arty that needs fixing and not the muninn. Yup, I think it was Tux (?) who said that if you increase a ship's PG to comfortably fit artillery, then it will have absolutely silly PG when it fits autocannons. The dev's would just prefer to tweak artillery requirements and countertweak certain Min ships in response. But there's nothing wrong with silly grid on a AC Muninn. It's still a Vagabond with one damage bonus less and short one mid. A 1600mm or even dualreps don't make up for that.
General Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.24 11:21:00 - [50] Originally by: Amy Wang Muninn: - increase pg by 200 - change 1 high to 1 med Typhoon: - increase pg by 1000ish - reduce build cost by 10 Mio worth - switch shield and armor hp values Nidhoggur: - change remote armor rep duration bonus to 5% fighter damage per lvl (that way there are 2 carriers with tanking bonus and 2 with damage bonus, perfectly balanced) Maelstrom: - yes I know its not yet out, but when its out it will take long to fix - intended as shield tanking fleet BS but the planned shield boost bonus is useless in fleet combat - change shield boost bonus to 5% to all shield resists per lvl or 10% shield amount per lvl - make sure it can fit 8 1400 IIs with 0-1 fitting mod Target Painters: - the only non defensive ew module and arguable the most useless one - solution 1: give minmatar ew ships bonuses to one of the other racial ew variants, leave target painters as a module that each race can use equally effective (might even give each ew ship a bonus to a different ew type, minmatar is about variability after all) - solution 2: add a secondary defensive effect to the target painter module, either a weakened version of the effect of one of the other racial ews or a unique effect like a sig radius reduction for the using ship or a sig resolution increase for the targeted ships weapon systems or sth like that) (think of the painting stream as disrupting the targeted ships sensor systems or whatever) Cheetah: - increase base CPU by at least 40, better more Perfectly Balanced . NO FREAKING WAY ! If Amarr don't get any love you will not have your I-Win buttons . Not happy whit Minmatar ship go train up for some others. Counter-signed

Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.24 11:49:00 - [51] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Shadowsword - Reduce the falloff of autocanons by a good 25-30%, OR don't give minmatars a falloff-enhancing T2 ammo. The effective range it gives to Vaggabonds and T2 AC tempests is a joke. I thought the point of autocannons was to outrange blasters? And the range on the Vagabond is a ship bonus, designed to make sure it can stay at range, since it has hardly any tank. Its a fast hit and run ship, and it needs good range to do it. If you nerf the Vagabond, I think you will notice how about 0% of players pick minmatar ships to start with. They already have almost no strengths compared to gallente ffs. That's right, autocanons should outrange blasters, but not by that wide a margin. And IMHO, no ship more agile or faster than a BS or BC should be able to dish out basically untankable DPS without needing to enter web range. Never, ever. Any exception is a serious danger of being outside of what game mechanics can manage (the infamous dual-mwd raven comes to mind). Back in the day when HAS stats became known, everyone was drooling over the Deimos, the Vaggabond was dismissed in the "crap" category, with minmatars screaming bloody murder because their HAS were lousy, basically because it didn't do Deimos-like DPS, and I was one of the only players to defend it. But the problem basically boil down to this: What weaknesses does the Vaggabond currently have? - DPS? He deals enough to break most BS tanks, while staying out of web range. - Vulnerability to tacklers? Only the Ishtar and Cerberus come close when it comes to killing small targets. (Eagle too, but effective at it only at extreme range, so that's a special case). - Vulnerability to big ships? Enough speed to evade large guns (even when you try to snipe it 120-150km away), large missiles aren't all that good against them, drones get destroyed so fast it's not even funny, and a dual-extender or extender+Invul field II passive tank is a very respectable protection, when you put that on top of it's resists and fast shield recharge. Small guns will hit, but with insignifiant damage, med guns will have a hard time to hit anything. - There is no non-capital ship in-game that is better at surviving an hostile encounter than the Vaggabond. Interceptors are faster and more agile, but also get popped much faster. The current cookie-cutter setup is a good-against-anything, survive-against-almost-anything solo pwnmobile. A lot of players say that it takes a Huginn and a Lachesis to counter effectively a Vaggabond. 2 higly specialised ships to counter one general-purpose boat? WTF? Where's the Risk-vs-Reward in that? ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.24 11:59:00 - [52] Originally by: Seramis Originally by: Amy Wang Edited by: Amy Wang on 24/08/2006 10:57:37 - added the Cheetah, sry I forgot it in the first place and yes it is ridiculus that it cant even fit a cloak and a probe launcher with skill lvl 4 without cramming the lows full of CoProc. IIs ... Also with Covert Ops at Level 5 you can fit a Probe Launcher and have 5 CPU for all other slots to fill (ok, Cloaking device does not need any CPU at this level). So for a half decent fitting I still need 2 Co Proc II to get enough CPU to fill the slots, that sucks :( Scan probe launchers need IIRC 225 CPU, so you have 25 cpu left. Also, you forget that the Cheetah has 350 ms base speed while the other cov ops vary between 240 - 285 ms. Doesn't matter if cov ops lvl 4 or 5, the cheetah is with launcher + cloak still faster than any other cov ops at that skill lvl.
Spaced Skunk Oriundus Cineris	Posted - 2006.08.24 12:10:00 - [53] Edited by: Spaced Skunk on 24/08/2006 12:12:18 Artillery - -Reduce powergrid needs by 20% Bellicose/Huginn/Rapier - -Increase drone bay to 50m3 Typhoon - -Increase powergrid 1000-2000 -Switch Armor/Shield HP around Cyclone/Claymore/Sliepnir - -Increase CPU by 50 -Increase agility by 15% (all battlecruisers/command need agility boost) Hail - -Remove speed penalty..please. I mean void doesnt penalise the main strong point of its race does it. Hound - - +20 powergrid. All stealth bombers need to be changed. Claw - -Increase targeting range Maelstrom - -Change 5% shield bonus to 5% reduction in Armor repairer duration.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.24 12:20:00 - [54] Originally by: Amy Wang But seriously you want to nerf AC falloff? You realize that AC already have the worst tracking, More than compensated by the non-cap usage Originally by: Amy Wang lowest optimal range When a blaster use antimatter, the blasteship lose something signifiant where effective range is concerned. When a AC use EMP, the ACship lose so little that it's insignifiant. And when both have -50% optimal ammos fitted (most logical choice for T1 ammos), how big is really the difference between a blaster and an AC? 3km for large guns? Originally by: Amy Wang lowest dps compensated in large part by dual damage or damage and RoF minmatar ship bonuses Originally by: Amy Wang and highest ammo usage of all short range weapons? Majorly inconvenient for NPC hunting and lv4 missions, but not really for pvp. Fights are too fast, with one side generally much bigger than the other->Fights lasts seconds, a few minutes for a fleet fight, but in a fleet, you're either a tackler with very low life expectancy, or using artilleries and not ACs. Originally by: Amy Wang You also realise that being forced to fight deep into falloff reduces the damage even more? This is somehow balanced by high falloff, Damage reduction by falloff already taken into consideration when I speak about Vaggabond DPS. Originally by: Amy Wang reasonable fitting reqs. Medium pulse 2: 12 powergrid Neutron blaster II: 12 powergrid standard launcher II: 9 powergrid 200mm autocanon II: 4 powergrid Basically the same for CPU. Reasonable? Originally by: Amy Wang and zero cap use. If anything was unbalanced by introduction of t2 ammo and needs a nerf it is the blasters and not the ac. The range advantage means not much if you have to fight in 20k scramble range anyway. (yea free faction scramblers for all minni pilots could also solve that problem gg) That's a valid argument, but it holds only if you don't have a tackler to work with. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.24 13:07:00 - [55] Originally by: Shadowsword That's right, autocanons should outrange blasters, but not by that wide a margin. And IMHO, no ship more agile or faster than a BS or BC should be able to dish out basically untankable DPS without needing to enter web range. Never, ever. Any exception is a serious danger of being outside of what game mechanics can manage (the infamous dual-mwd raven comes to mind). I guess you have the right to your opinion, but I dont see any practical reason why there cant be ships relying on speed to survive in Eve. You already have interceptors in the game, capable of taking down battleships. Just like a inty, the Vaga is dead if it gets double webbed. It cant tank worth a damn so it avoids the damage instead. To do that, you need speed and a low sig. Without those things, the ship would be crap. If you would force it to enter web range to deal good damage, it would definently lose its purpose in the game. If you are going to enter web range, why not instead pick a ship that can tank? Because you will take alot of damage sitting there webbed. Quote: Back in the day when HAS stats became known, everyone was drooling over the Deimos, the Vaggabond was dismissed in the "crap" category, with minmatars screaming bloody murder because their HAS were lousy, basically because it didn't do Deimos-like DPS, and I was one of the only players to defend it. Its always like that. New ships gets introduced and caldari and gallente are usually very happy, with minmatar and amarr usually very unhappy. I have a hard time explaining it without blaming Tuxford for poor game balance actually. Its getting old to never get a good ship, but instead have to whine and whine to finally get the ship fixed after months or years of whining. Its very frustrating, and thats why the minnies are sensitive about the few minnie ships that actually ARE good in the game. Quote: But the problem basically boil down to this: What weaknesses does the Vaggabond currently have? - DPS? He deals enough to break most BS tanks, while staying out of web range. - Vulnerability to tacklers? Only the Ishtar and Cerberus come close when it comes to killing small targets. (Eagle too, but effective at it only at extreme range, so that's a special case). - Vulnerability to big ships? Enough speed to evade large guns (even when you try to snipe it 120-150km away), large missiles aren't all that good against them, drones get destroyed so fast it's not even funny, and a dual-extender or extender+Invul field II passive tank is a very respectable protection, when you put that on top of it's resists and fast shield recharge. Small guns will hit, but with insignifiant damage, med guns will have a hard time to hit anything. - There is no non-capital ship in-game that is better at surviving an hostile encounter than the Vaggabond. Interceptors are faster and more agile, but also get popped much faster. The current cookie-cutter setup is a good-against-anything, survive-against-almost-anything solo pwnmobile. A lot of players say that it takes a Huginn and a Lachesis to counter effectively a Vaggabond. 2 higly specialised ships to counter one general-purpose boat? WTF? Where's the Risk-vs-Reward in that? The ship is designed to be the best at exacly the things you are describing. 1 vs 1 guerilla work, the Vagabond cant be beat. Its weaknesses is basicly in groups. Group vs group, it goes pop faster than you can say cheese. It cant handle focused fire because it doesnt have a tank, and the transversal is only relative and important for the ship it is attacking. The others will have no problems hitting it. Here ships like the Cerberus shines though.. they can tank quite alot of damage before they die. Cerb sucks for solo work though. So yeah, Vaga is filling its purpose in the game as a solo pirate ship. There is nothing wrong with that. The counter is to be in a group, basicly. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.08.24 17:34:00 - [56] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Amy Wang lowest dps compensated in large part by dual damage or damage and RoF minmatar ship bonuses At the cost of a ship bonus. Effectively those ships get one less bonus just to bring them "in large part" up to par. That's a big deal. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.24 17:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske At the cost of a ship bonus. Effectively those ships get one less bonus just to bring them "in large part" up to par. That's a big deal. And how exactly is that different to ..mhh.. all other races ships?
Attiladehun Gallente Fire Mandrill	Posted - 2006.08.24 18:24:00 - [58] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/08/2006 15:47:00 Originally by: Benglada Originally by: xeom Remove the speed penalty on hail. Yar. I guess they dont want Vagabonds with hail and no speed penalties... Can see a point in that, if ammo change would be the same as ammar way the speed issue would be less off an issue. but this T2 ammo nerfs too much of youre speed, if it would be like -20% of the total speed and not per gun. that would be somewhat more reasonable. If the mealstorm has 8 guns, go figure 8 guns with hail -_- I aggree with most of those remarks, specially the phoon pg, it needs some lovely pg boost And increase the dmg of minmatar ammo, it doesn't even come in the range of the other races ... But i still wub minmatar ships
Vera Nosfyu Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.08.24 19:26:00 - [59] Can someone explain why the Phoon needs a PG boost? It can fit a full rack of torps and AC's, a cap injector, and a dual rep tank with just one fitting mod. As for the Nidhoggur, here's my suggestion: 5% bonus to fighter velocity per level. ----------------------------------------------------------- "Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin
HolographicEntrypoint The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.08.24 19:52:00 - [60] Originally by: Amy Wang Target Painters: - the only non defensive ew module and arguable the most useless one ehh? whats wrong with it? you want to shred a frig with drones, you paint it. --- ^ Custom Sigs for ISK My custom Sigs Gallery

xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.08.24 19:58:00 - [61] Right right reduce the AC falloff.That wouldn't kill minmatar at all. So we shouldn't have range that can do enough damage to break you're tank? So that we do have to get in range so you can *****us with blasters? As if webbing a tempest was such a hard task.And once they nerf ECM and NOS its going to be probably the worst battleship.As currently ECM acts as the Dice per say that decides if you get a CHANCE to win.If it does jam your target then you can trying and break some distance.And the NOS makes it harder for them to MWD and keep up the tank. Sweet so you want us to have no tank,no gank,no range+speed combo(at least not good enough to be usefull).Basicly you wan't a easy target until the minmatar pilots can trian a megathron?As if there wasn't already enough reason to do so. ugh gallante the new caldarie =\ CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| ..SIN is closed.New sig coming soon!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.24 20:09:00 - [62] Shadowsword, sure, and when nobody flys AC ships anyone... er... The Claw does not need any from of bonus, but nerfing AC's leaves it a useless relic, since all it CAN do is fight. Increasing the PG leaves Minmatar, allready with low DPS, unable to fit supporting modules and basically useless in combat. Reducing the falloff would cut the effective range to little more than the far higher DPS blaster, in addition. OMG, they use no cap. Yes, Minmatar ships cap recharge rate is poor. Several have less effective cap rcharge than equivalent sized Amarr ships WHILE the Amarr ships are firing their weapons! As for T2 amo, it's ALL broken and should go. Focusing on any specific problem is biased. Oh, and a (12.5%) range penalty on WCS will also hurt many Vaga setups a lot! "Medium pulse 2: 12 powergrid Neutron blaster II: 12 powergrid standard launcher II: 9 powergrid 200mm autocanon II: 4 powergrid Basically the same for CPU. Reasonable?" Completely and utterly biased on your part. For starters, Rockets and NOT Standard missiles are the equivalent of close range guns, you're deliverately distorting the picture. Second, compare neutron and 200mm AC DPS, the neutron is a LOT higher. And then the Amarr ships...yes, it's too high even with their range advantage but that is an AMARR issue not a MINMATAR one! By the time you've figured in the lower Minmatar cap recharge, it works. Celeste Storm, that you don't even understand that higher damage means higher killmaill position is telling. It's quite clear that Ekundo did the final blow, it's LABLED on the killmail. And killmails are the only solid measure of proof that exist. If you want to stay in denial, feel free. Amy Wang, Claw with 3 mids would be totally overpowered. It dosn't need changing.
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.24 20:20:00 - [63] Originally by: Maya Rkell Claw with 3 mids would be totally overpowered. It dosn't need changing. The claw needs more locking range. Its a useless pile of crap without it.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.24 20:21:00 - [64] Just because you can't use it as you want dosn't mean it's not useful. No, it's not a good arty ship. shrugs It needs a high level of both player and character skill to use. And in the right hands, it's lethal. That's fine.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.08.25 10:28:00 - [65] Edited by: Amy Wang on 25/08/2006 10:34:13 Originally by: Maya Rkell Amy Wang, Claw with 3 mids would be totally overpowered. It dosn't need changing. I kinda agree, but as long as there is the Taranis in its current form I think it would be ok. Taranis should lose the drone space to bring it in line with the other ceptors. Originally by: HolographicEntrypoint Originally by: Amy Wang Target Painters: - the only non defensive ew module and arguable the most useless one ehh? whats wrong with it? you want to shred a frig with drones, you paint it. Wrong is that the painter does slightly increase your or/and your mates damage in some situations but all other ew types let you avoid a great chunk (if not all) of the enemy damage. Actually I dont think that there is anything wrong with target painters. They perform a role, no argue there. But I do think minmatar deserves a defensive and as effective ew form as the other races ew.
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:21:00 - [66] All of the below are my own oppinions and I do not claim them as gospel truth,a nd am more than ready to be re-educated by more experienced pilots. My (admittedly very basic) understanding about minmatar fighting philosophy is: "Do more damage unto them before they can pop you". This makes the target painter a very usefull module, and one that features in most of my big ship setups if I know I'm going to face smaller ships (hey how about target painter bonus for nidhogger j/k), but having a mod to reduce incoming damage would be nice because minmatar tank worse than all else to start with. The claw imo is fine as is. Without advanced weapons ups, I can still fit 3 arties and a missile launcher, and even with arty, you only want to be about 11k away from your target (unless it's a minmatar recon cruiser with the web bonus). Sure another med would be nice, but it would make the Claw a tad overpowered, and the price would sky rocket (look at what happened to teh Jag prices when that got boosted! 12 mill to 22mill upwards!!!!), and I like having a cheap T2 ship that I can have fun in and not worry too much about losing. Iirc, by training up Astrometrics, your scan probe launcher needs less CPU to use, and with covert osp trained up so does the cloak. So the Minmatar have to do more training than the other races. Nothing new there! Autocannons are fine as they are Artillery could do with requiring less PG to fit, and a bit more clip size, and a buit less on the refire (I was kinda hoping that AVU would help out, but evedently not ) and the above changes would probably make them a bit overpowered and all teh Caldari pilots would cry Again, r.e. the Wolf, an extra med would be nice, but as it is, I am already running at at close to maximum pg / tf, so without those being boosted too, it becomes kind of uselesss, except to boost the price for the higher skilled pilots who can actually make use of the extra slot. And as for double bonuses, How many Caldari / Amarr ships get bonus to resists per level and a single weapons bonus, compared to the Minmatar's double weapons bonuses????? And as for the Vagabond. Leave it the **** alone, I want one, and I want it to be good when I finally get there (skill and isk wise). Has anyone else noticed how the Minmatar Assault ships (light and heavy) only get 2 high armour resists to start with, compared to all other races getting 3! Of course tehy have to be better in other areas. It's called balance! Akkarin Linkage Do not press this button
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:51:00 - [67] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan A Iirc, by training up Astrometrics, your scan probe launcher needs less CPU to use, and with covert osp trained up so does the cloak. So the Minmatar have to do more training than the other races. Nothing new there! Astrometrics: Skill at operating long range scanners. 10% faster scanning with scan probes per level. Well, Cheetah has to fit all lows with Co Proc IIs to fit a cloak and a scan probe launcher with covert skill at 4. All other races covert ops with skill at 4 can fit both modules without a single fitting mod and even have cpu spare for other mods. Its wrong that you have to cramp your lows full with fitting mods or train the skill to 5 to fullfill your role when the other races dont need to do that. I can accept having no cpu spare after fitting cloak and launcher at skill lvl 4 on the cheetah because of the speed advantage or even having to use say 1 Co proc II for that, but having to use 3 and having only like 10 cpu spare is just wrong.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.25 12:03:00 - [68] Originally by: Amy Wang Well, Cheetah has to fit all lows with Co Proc IIs to fit a cloak and a scan probe launcher with covert skill at 4. All other races covert ops with skill at 4 can fit both modules without a single fitting mod and even have cpu spare for other mods. Its wrong that you have to cramp your lows full with fitting mods or train the skill to 5 to fullfill your role when the other races dont need to do that. I can accept having no cpu spare after fitting cloak and launcher at skill lvl 4 on the cheetah because of the speed advantage or even having to use say 1 Co proc II for that, but having to use 3 and having only like 10 cpu spare is just wrong. sigh And what do you use the low slots otherwise if not for CP II? Ah, yes, speed mods. And now just guess where the Cheetah already has an huge advantage? No matter which other cov ops you pick, the cheetah will be faster with 3 CP II than the other cov ops with 1 CP II (for the Helios/Anathema) or none (for the Buzzard) and all other slots filled with nanos.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.08.25 12:56:00 - [69] Originally by: Aramendel sigh And what do you use the low slots otherwise if not for CP II? Ah, yes, speed mods. And now just guess where the Cheetah already has an huge advantage? No matter which other cov ops you pick, the cheetah will be faster with 3 CP II than the other cov ops with 1 CP II (for the Helios/Anathema) or none (for the Buzzard) and all other slots filled with nanos. But they have cpu to spare to fit cap batteries, shield extender, ew or weapons, while the cheetah cant fit anything apart scan launcher and cloak with a maximum on fitting mods. And yes, Ive seen Caladari Covert ops solo killing Interdictors with EW and missiles. Sure, not the intended purpose but it illustrates a lack of fitting options on the Cheetah (read: lack of cpu). As I said: No problem with having to use 1 or even 2 fitting mod to fit cloak and scan launcher and 1 or 2 additional fitting mods to fit anything else, but having to use 3 to fit the basic role defining mods and nothing else is a bit over the top.
Xantina Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:01:00 - [70] Originally by: Amy Wang Edited by: Amy Wang on 23/08/2006 23:24:29 Edited by: Amy Wang on 23/08/2006 13:39:06 Edited by: Amy Wang on 23/08/2006 13:18:21 Muninn: - increase pg by 200 - change 1 high to 1 med Whatever Originally by: Amy Wang Typhoon: - increase pg by 1000ish - reduce build cost by 10 Mio worth - switch shield and armor hp values Good idea Originally by: Amy Wang Nidhoggur: - change remote armor rep duration bonus to 5% fighter damage per lvl (that way there are 2 carriers with tanking bonus and 2 with damage bonus, perfectly balanced) No. The remote shield bonus makes this ship excellent for POS fights. Originally by: Amy Wang Maelstrom: - yes I know its not yet out, but when its out it will take long to fix - intended as shield tanking fleet BS but the planned shield boost bonus is useless in fleet combat - change shield boost bonus to 5% to all shield resists per lvl or 10% shield amount per lvl - make sure it can fit 8 1400 IIs with 0-1 fitting mod Lets not sing the Moaning Minnie Blues before the ship is in. Originally by: Amy Wang Target Painters: - the only non defensive ew module and arguable the most useless one - solution 1: give minmatar ew ships bonuses to one of the other racial ew variants, leave target painters as a module that each race can use equally effective (might even give each ew ship a bonus to a different ew type, minmatar is about variability after all) - solution 2: add a secondary defensive effect to the target painter module, either a weakened version of the effect of one of the other racial ews or a unique effect like a sig radius reduction for the using ship or a sig resolution increase for the targeted ships weapon systems or sth like that) (think of the painting stream as disrupting the targeted ships sensor systems or whatever) Whatever Originally by: Amy Wang Cheetah: - increase base CPU by at least 40, better more Why ?

Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:18:00 - [71] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Maya Rkell Claw with 3 mids would be totally overpowered. It dosn't need changing. The claw needs more locking range. Its a useless pile of crap without it. I'm sorry, I'm not following you. Why does the claw need more locking range? Are you firing outside it's locking range? If so why? I mean I assumed the Claw was a interceptor and a frigate right? So why would you need 30km to use autocannons or rockets? Do you plan to use EW with it? I mean do you need range to run 2 ECM or Damps? Maybe run 1 damp and use arties to snipe cruisers? ><
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:19:00 - [72] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Maya Rkell Claw with 3 mids would be totally overpowered. It dosn't need changing. The claw needs more locking range. Its a useless pile of crap without it. I'm sorry, I'm not following you. Why does the claw need more locking range? Are you firing outside it's locking range? If so why? I mean I assumed the Claw was a interceptor and a frigate right? So why would you need 30km to use autocannons or rockets? Do you plan to use EW with it? I mean do you need range to run 2 ECM or Damps? Maybe run 1 damp and use arties to snipe cruisers? >< What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:32:00 - [73] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/08/2006 13:33:09 Originally by: Amy Wang But they have cpu to spare to fit cap batteries, shield extender, ew or weapons, while the cheetah cant fit anything apart scan launcher and cloak with a maximum on fitting mods. And yes, Ive seen Caladari Covert ops solo killing Interdictors with EW and missiles. Sure, not the intended purpose but it illustrates a lack of fitting options on the Cheetah (read: lack of cpu). Exept an cov ops role is not to be a combat ship. Shield extenders, EW, missles are no factor there. cap batteries can help with long warps, but there the limiting factor is powergrid. The role of a cov ops is scouting and providing warpins for your gang. And the cheetah is with it's very high speed perfect there. No, in exchange you cannot use it as an overpriced stealth bomber. But I am gladly unable to do that and instead be better to do that what you will use a covops mainly. Originally by: Jim McGregor What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. Quickest shuttle.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:05:00 - [74] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/08/2006 14:05:43 Originally by: Jim McGregor What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. Killing frigs. A Claw in the right hands can kill AF's. It's not flown extensively because it's not an easy ship to use, but it certainly does have a role. The Ares is a big shuttle....
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 17:27:00 - [75] Originally by: Jim McGregor What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. Killing other inties (I destroyed a friends Crow on Sisi with lesser skills, and aren't they meant to be uber?) Akkarin Linkage Do not press this button
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.25 17:28:00 - [76] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Killing other inties (I destroyed a friends Crow on Sisi with lesser skills, and aren't they meant to be uber?) Well, it comes down to pilot skill... if you web a crow, he pops. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Bazman Caldari The Establishment	Posted - 2006.08.25 17:40:00 - [77] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Originally by: Jim McGregor What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. Killing other inties (I destroyed a friends Crow on Sisi with lesser skills, and aren't they meant to be uber?) Akkarin The only way to kill another inty with a claw is to hope that the other inty is stupid enough to come close to you and stay there while you kill it, otherwise it will either MWD away before you can react and chase, or it will warp off, because chances are you have either a web or scram. Damn 2 mid slot ceptors ----- Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 17:56:00 - [78] Ahh, he couldn't get away becasue I also had MWD and overdrives, and chased him down. Becasue I set an approach and not an orbit, I just sat 2k or so off his tail and pummeled him with 4 hi slots of emp and thorn rocket goodness :) Akkarin Linkage Do not press this button
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.08.25 18:43:00 - [79] The claw can be a tackler. It's not as effective now a days due to WCS usage but you know that's fine. It doesn't have a 3rd mid slot for like a web but you know that's ok too. It can still aid damage in squads. I mean, why fly 5 stilettos when you can fly 2 stilettos and 3 claws? It's a damage dealer as well tackler in some cases. It does decent, and well solo. You're all right when people want to just MWD away or get atleast out of the claws autocannon range but then again it is a claw it has good speeds and autocannons rock. If it gets anywhere in range it's going to take a big chunck out of ship trying to flee away. If not, you're not dead and he is not dead. So why does it really matter? Most solo fights I've gotten in my Claw, have all been inties who wanted to fight and well noone tried to web/run.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.25 19:06:00 - [80] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/08/2006 19:06:30 Originally by: Bazman Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Originally by: Jim McGregor What is the Claw good at? I never hear anyone talk about it. Killing other inties (I destroyed a friends Crow on Sisi with lesser skills, and aren't they meant to be uber?) Akkarin The only way to kill another inty with a claw is to hope that the other inty is stupid enough to come close to you and stay there while you kill it, otherwise it will either MWD away before you can react and chase, or it will warp off, because chances are you have either a web or scram. Damn 2 mid slot ceptors You're accusing some pretty good ceptor pilots of being stupid. And do remember that no scrambler does NOT mean you can't stop someone warping, even if they realise they need to get out in time. With barrage, you can reach out to very nearly the end of web range, and an Inty without a web who faces you is dead meat.

Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.25 19:19:00 - [81] Just tossing this to the wind: Nidhoggur and Hel -5% Capacitor need for Capital Shield and Armour systems. In other words, both remotes and local repair/boost modules. It won't soak more damage, nor repair more, than the Caldari/Amarr ones, but it can run one more rep if you really try. Will also be able to run remote reps for less cap use - which is what's needed instead of cycle duration. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.25 21:00:00 - [82] Edited by: Mr Peanut on 25/08/2006 21:04:46 Edited by: Mr Peanut on 25/08/2006 21:03:58 Originally by: xeom Also something for the minmatar carriar but i can't think of a replacement for drones. How about less fuel/cap needed per jump? How about you guys come up with a bonus that won't make it wtfpwn all the other ones. Seriously. Two suggested bonuses on first page and both would make it the best carrier by far. IMO the cap bonus for armor systems suggested above is the best one.
Bhoki Tentor	Posted - 2006.08.25 21:55:00 - [83] Originally by: Ithildin Just tossing this to the wind: Nidhoggur and Hel -5% Capacitor need for Capital Shield and Armour systems. In other words, both remotes and local repair/boost modules. It won't soak more damage, nor repair more, than the Caldari/Amarr ones, but it can run one more rep if you really try. Will also be able to run remote reps for less cap use - which is what's needed instead of cycle duration. Either cap reduction(perhaps even more then 5% reduction) or alternatively boost the amount the remotes transfer/repper boost which would improve boost/s and boost/cap.
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.25 22:43:00 - [84] The claw is a pile of crap. Autocannons on a claw are stupid. A rifter with auto's beats a claw with auto's. Any other high speed ceptor will keep you at range while killing you...or if you use a web he'll just warp away. Auto's also put you into web/nos/drone/smartbomb range and you'll get chewed up by any bigger ships easily. And probably get podkilled too. Artillery on a claw also sucks because you can't run a long range faction disruptor and stay out of nos range, which makes you worthless against any bs with a nos and drones. Its also nearly impossible to tank a claw (for the autocannon setups) because it has horrible cpu issues. The rifter is much easier to fit, and at close range it can web and scram and still have a tank + autos. /emote farts on the claw.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.08.25 23:10:00 - [85] Originally by: Mr Peanut Edited by: Mr Peanut on 25/08/2006 21:04:46 Edited by: Mr Peanut on 25/08/2006 21:03:58 Originally by: xeom Also something for the minmatar carriar but i can't think of a replacement for drones. How about less fuel/cap needed per jump? How about you guys come up with a bonus that won't make it wtfpwn all the other ones. Seriously. Two suggested bonuses on first page and both would make it the best carrier by far. IMO the cap bonus for armor systems suggested above is the best one. So it is the best carrier if it gets the very same bonus another carrier already has? Care to elaborate the sudden uberness you are supposing? Is it the extra mid slot in comparison to the thanatos or the one low slot less even? The Thanatos has even more hitpoints. Maybe I missed your sarcasm, sry in that case. And all bonuses suggested that have anything to do with improving remote reppers are nearly as bad as the present bonus. Very weak, next to useless and require extra training to be utilitized at all. Would be a different story if carriers were actually viable as fleet line ships repairing each other and other ships but that would require so much changes to actually work that I dont see it happen.


Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.

KilROCK's Forum Assistant