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![Sabrina Curtis Sabrina Curtis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/888106596/portrait?size=64)
Sabrina Curtis
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Posted - 2006.08.24 09:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Sabrina Curtis on 24/08/2006 09:53:31 Those that joined the game ages ago have a real advantage and hold many cards, hence it is easier for them to make money, grow and have the best set-up for fighting. They also have the edge on experience. It creates a US type economy - you are either rich or very poor (not just in financial terms, but in capabilities too).
New players lack a decent rulebook - there is far too much out there to learn in one go and doing is probably learning.
The problem is, the universe is stacked against a noob because the money to be made is in ways that reward the older characters - low sec mining, low sec ratting, pirating, leading to large corps and pos dominations.
I'm not decrying those that joined perhaps in the early years and worked hard for their position - clearly it is earned. The problem is, is that the universe in this game is pretty much mapped out now and new players will find it hard to do much more than mine in empire space, do some boring trade runs or the poor paying missions that even take you into 0.4 space where you risk losing everything for a 23k reward.
Yesterday, I mined for 5 hours in 0.7 space in a Brutix. IĘd been playing for 8 weeks and worked hard to get the ship - not to go pvping or anything, just to mine with many lasers and make more money. This guy came in, and I thought he was attacking me coz he changed blinking red all of a sudden - so I set my scout drones on him as that is all I had (being in safe space or so I thought). He'd actually popped my can and now, me firing on him gave him the right to attack me. He jammed me and started reducing all my Brutix points - I ended up paying him a ransom worth the 5 hours mining I'd done. OK, so I hadn't learned about this feature of the game - there are so many - but I would expect in 0.7 space to be safe from this type of thing - clearly not.
My point is, is that the game is stacked against noobs and heavily in favour of the longer serving player - its too easy for those with experience to exploit the lack of understanding of those who recently joined. What satisfaction is there from winning a battle when the odds were already stacked massively in your favour? i.e. knowledge.
Most games start with everyone equal - thinking of board games, single player computer games etc - but you join this game at a massive disadvantage. You dare not go into low sec space and then lose a fortune in high sec space because an action only worthy of low sec space is carried out in Empire space.
How can one play catch-up and stand a real chance to do well? I even bought a BPO the other day and cannot find anywhere free to research it. What is worth owning, is already owned. I'm told all the tech 2 BPOs are already taken, so money goes to money etc.
I expect the old-timers to flame this post telling me to learn the game, its only a game, can I have your stuff etc.
My suggestion would be for CCP to add more features to the game to allow more to happen in Empire space or to give newer players some more variety to their gameplay.
I'm not leaving, just observing how unbalanced the game is when you join it. ![Confused](/images/icon_confused.gif)
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![Stanis Stanis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1612562913/portrait?size=64)
Stanis
Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.24 09:48:00 -
[2]
/me hands you a flame suit
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![Sabrina Curtis Sabrina Curtis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/888106596/portrait?size=64)
Sabrina Curtis
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Posted - 2006.08.24 09:51:00 -
[3]
Thanks. I'm putting it on right now. ![Cool](/images/icon_cool.gif)
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![Skva Skva](https://images.evetech.net/characters/320095472/portrait?size=64)
Skva
Caldari Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2006.08.24 09:52:00 -
[4]
/me hands you a better flame suit. Your gonna need it. I could reply to this with how I think your wrong, but there are probably ten people doing the same as we speak. ![Smile](/images/icon_smile.gif) Your signature is too large! Please resize it according to the forum guidelines. Jacques Archambault |
![Thelmarr Thelmarr](https://images.evetech.net/characters/133718044/portrait?size=64)
Thelmarr
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Posted - 2006.08.24 09:55:00 -
[5]
Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Overall I would say that it is better to avoid starting combat in your miner setup.
EVE is a thinking game. You in your Brutix had minin lasers set up, perhaps compromising your tank as well. Your opponent clearly was confident enough to trust in combat setup of his ship. Thus, it is logical that most likely his ship was able to defeat you (as he did).
So better course of action would have been to let him take the damn can. Yeah, sucks a lot but it's a can. Roids will return and as long as you have your ship you are a-ok.
You might want to consider joining a corp as well. Evemail me to hear more of our corp, to get some good hints or just say hi. ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
(of course if you want to tell me to sod off you could do that too. I don't mind. Much.)
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![Sabrina Curtis Sabrina Curtis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/888106596/portrait?size=64)
Sabrina Curtis
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Posted - 2006.08.24 09:55:00 -
[6]
I might be wrong - but I'd like to know so I can put it right.
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![Meervluis Meervluis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/863959447/portrait?size=64)
Meervluis
THE H.O.E.
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Posted - 2006.08.24 09:55:00 -
[7]
We-ell.... lets start with.. i think youre wrong.. Eve is just about "taking more risk means more ISK"
and i think i will leave it at that since you will hear this a lot
![Wink](/images/icon_wink.gif) --------------------------------------------- I boiled an egg once, and only totally ruined one pot, one knife, and one spoon! |
![Baldour Ngarr Baldour Ngarr](https://images.evetech.net/characters/289477497/portrait?size=64)
Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.08.24 09:57:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Thelmarr So better course of action would have been to let him take the damn can. Yeah, sucks a lot but it's a can. Roids will return and as long as you have your ship you are a-ok.
Congratulations on totally missing the point. She's a new player; she didn't KNOW that was why he was flashing red. She thought he was already attacking her.
Which - here's a thought - might be why she thinks the documentation for the game is poor when it comes to new players learning the tricks? ________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
![Azulios Azulios](https://images.evetech.net/characters/241460769/portrait?size=64)
Azulios
Incarnation of Evil
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Posted - 2006.08.24 09:59:00 -
[9]
Eve definately has a steep learning curve - and I think that's part of it's appeal to me, to be honest. I feel for ya though, I was there 18 months ago.
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![Sabrina Curtis Sabrina Curtis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/888106596/portrait?size=64)
Sabrina Curtis
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:00:00 -
[10]
That's what I was getting at yes - tricks played on me in what I thought was safe space and finding out I'd wasted hours of my time - I mean, ok, I learnt from this, but in essence, I mined for 5 hours to give the money to a guy who spent 2 minutes earning it (I worked for him basically).
As this is a MMORPG its a a bit more than just a game as real time is spent and exploits/tricks like this are not a good way to get into the game. More likely to drive one away.
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![Ishida Akiko Ishida Akiko](https://images.evetech.net/characters/114054279/portrait?size=64)
Ishida Akiko
Caldari The Carebear Club
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:03:00 -
[11]
Nothing new, return to bed.
--- Cool, now go away. |
![H00KER H00KER](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1959723328/portrait?size=64)
H00KER
Caldari Visual I.D GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:05:00 -
[12]
Im not going to flame you, I agree that the game is extremely poor in giving tools for learning the many many rules, tricks and techniques. Unfortunately this is the same for everyone and the strong will adapt and survive the weak will fall by the wayside.
The guy who kinda missed the point on why what happened to you just did, did however give you the best piece of advice he possibly could have. Join a corp, a good one. One that has experienced players and possibly a bit of reasonably safe access to low sec or 0.0 space. The best way to learn is to do, go out and get ship after ship blown up until youve seen it all. Then start to analyze your horrible deaths and learn from them, you can rack up a lot of lessons (deaths) in cheap frigates. Listen watch learn. Its a bit like life really, no manual for that either, you have to surround yourself with knowledge. How much you absorb is upto you.
Hooker
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![Chribba Chribba](https://images.evetech.net/characters/196379789/portrait?size=64)
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:06:00 -
[13]
/me remember spending some 3 months saving ISK to buy his first cruiser... that precious Vexor drained my ~5M-ish wallet.
EVE-Files | EVE-Search | Monitor this Thread |
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![Megan Ryder Megan Ryder](https://images.evetech.net/characters/850747023/portrait?size=64)
Megan Ryder
VentureCorp CORE.
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:08:00 -
[14]
as a vet I can still clearly remember mining all weekend (18+ hrs) in a bantam, excluding a few very old vets (betas mainly) there aren't many that have fast tracked through the noob stage.
besides, if I hadn't seen some kind of reward for hours of frigate mining, or lvl1&2 agent missions, I wouldn't still be here, and neither, I suspect would many of the other vets.
finally, I think the harsh startup is why we have the excellent community and superb game world, so many wow-whiners give up and leave the game to those with the strength and determination to get though it. (I am not saying this is you, you are still here afterall )
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![Sabrina Curtis Sabrina Curtis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/888106596/portrait?size=64)
Sabrina Curtis
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:09:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Sabrina Curtis on 24/08/2006 10:09:00 There's a lot of good points there and its nice that people have come to take the time to give advice rather than just dismiss it because its not happening to them.
Learn, at cost, but learn I guess. Thanks
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![StarStryder StarStryder](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1442174944/portrait?size=64)
StarStryder
Wise Guys
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:13:00 -
[16]
Some of the trouble here is the rules of Empire space. At least in 0.0 you now precisely where you stand. However, Empire space has rules so complex than it puts the Byzantines to shame. And the ones who need to know these rules better than anyone are the newbies, or at least people like the OP who have worked hard to get something expensive. However, the rules book is so light weight and superficial that it really doesn't impart much in the way of useful information.
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![Kitty O'Shay Kitty O'Shay](https://images.evetech.net/characters/715011571/portrait?size=64)
Kitty O'Shay
Tharsis Security
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sabrina Curtis Edited by: Sabrina Curtis on 24/08/2006 10:09:00 There's a lot of good points there and its nice that people have come to take the time to give advice rather than just dismiss it because its not happening to them.
Learn, at cost, but learn I guess. Thanks
These forums are your owners manual. Sad but true.
But if the tutorial tried to cover everything, it'd take a week, and no one would complete it. As it stands, it gets you out into space, but that's about it.
It's a MMO, your best friend isn't a mining laser or asteroid, it's the people in your corp that you fly with everyday. Make friends in your starter corp, or look for a newb friend corp to join. The more experienced players will be the ones to teach the ins-and-outs.
Otherwise, if you try and learn all the lessons the hard way, it'll be very expensive.
Good luck! (And please don't mine in a Brutix, you've castrated a noble ship.) --
1 in 10 chance to win a battleship! |
![Doragee Doragee](https://images.evetech.net/characters/630999746/portrait?size=64)
Doragee
Minmatar Unknown Society
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:14:00 -
[18]
*yawn* Another one...
Poor noob....rly.... --
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![Glengrant Glengrant](https://images.evetech.net/characters/145755101/portrait?size=64)
Glengrant
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:23:00 -
[19]
Quote: New players lack a decent rulebook - there is far too much out there to learn in one go and doing is probably learning.
True enough. But there is a multitude of web sites with help and it's rather easy to join a corp where others can and will help a lot.
Quote: The problem is, is that the universe in this game is pretty much mapped out now and new players will find it hard to do much more than mine in empire space, do some boring trade runs or the poor paying missions that even take you into 0.4 space where you risk losing everything for a 23k reward.
Not true at all. Yes - most of the 0.0 is claimed by one alliance or 3 - but those alliances or rather their corps recruit new mmebers all the time. And while you probbaly don't get in on a trial account - you don't need a zillion SP or a year in play to get accepted.
Quote: OK, so I hadn't learned about this feature of the game - there are so many - but I would expect in 0.7 space to be safe from this type of thing - clearly not.
You *were* safe from him - as long as you don't start the fight by locking him and sending your drones. I'm sorry you didn't know that and I can understand how the vastness of Eve can be overwehleming for a noob - but not knowing what's going on would be a problem in any game - it's in the nature of things and so far has nothing to do with Eve.
Quote: My point is, is that the game is stacked against noobs and heavily in favour of the longer serving player - its too easy for those with experience to exploit the lack of understanding of those who recently joined. What satisfaction is there from winning a battle when the odds were already stacked massively in your favour? i.e. knowledge.
Again - being longer in any game will give anybody an advantage - and it would be very strange if a char that is much older could not get any advantage over a new one.
But Eve is actually great in that a 3 months character cann beat a 2 year one. Skills play less of a role in combat than most noobs think. A char with a few weeks of PVP will often brutaly beat up a years old char in a much more expensive ship if the latter doesn't know how to handle his ship in combat (and I'm not talking about skill points).
Your example ain't quite as valid as you think. If you started playing chess - you have no chance vs an experienced chess player.
You'll find lot's of veteran players still in empire - so the variety can't be that bad. The T2 BPOs are a lottery. You could start reserach and be lucky after a few days. Chars with lots of SP have weited for months witout getting any. Yes - big alliances try to buy all the most important T2 copies. If you get one in reserach feel free to not sell it.
Anyway - if all pilots had easy access to T2 - it wouldn't be worth much. Meanwhile T1 is a big and well working market. I can see a dozen labs to be rented in Everyshore alone. Copying and especialy productivity reserach ain't much of a problem. Material research - yes it will be pending for 1-2 weeks in most of the easily accessible and cheap empire stations. It's the very same for even the oldest chars - you're not at a disadvantage there.
The advantage of old chars is that they have a broader range of options. But in a particular activity or ship - a noob can catch up fast enough. And when you are 3-4 months in this game you want to feel that you got ahead in the game instead of the next noob getting your skill & stuff for free on first day, don't you?
Yes you *can* catch up. Eves brilliant diminishuing returns skill tree and the freedom to make money in a many ways allowed that for many players already.
It'll take (rightly) a bit of time and learnimg, but it's not like a 3 year old player will constantly be far ahead of you. Skill points are overrated. Ideas, determination and organization gets you much moch more.
Glengrant
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![Deja Thoris Deja Thoris](https://images.evetech.net/characters/144847014/portrait?size=64)
Deja Thoris
Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:26:00 -
[20]
Yes its a tough game with many pitfalls and complexeties.
I find this refreshing these days with so many games that hold your hand and dont allow you to go wrong.
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![Sabrina Curtis Sabrina Curtis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/888106596/portrait?size=64)
Sabrina Curtis
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:28:00 -
[21]
Thanks to everyone, apart from Ashida and Doragee (easier to not have replied, surely).
Very useful tips out there. Makes it feel better already.
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![hUssmann hUssmann](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1233204624/portrait?size=64)
hUssmann
Caldari Veto.
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:30:00 -
[22]
Edited by: hUssmann on 24/08/2006 10:32:21 Welcome to EVE.
I would love to of seen how you coped:
Before Concord Before sentry guns Before stupidly easy isk making Before 'Are you sure you want to do this? It might be a scam, you better triple-check!' boxes
The game does not swing in the way of vets, Skillpoint value is only 50% of eve, unlike WoW you actually need to have a brain to play.
I don't mean to smack you, but some of the things you are saying are utterly ridiculous ___________________________
Eris, no pink 'Eris woz 'ere 2006' kthx :)
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![Sabrina Curtis Sabrina Curtis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/888106596/portrait?size=64)
Sabrina Curtis
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:32:00 -
[23]
Yeah I wonder - but seeing I didn't know any of that either, I don't know what I have missed let alone what I don't know about the game I'm in now.
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![d'hofren d'hofren](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1666937521/portrait?size=64)
d'hofren
Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:34:00 -
[24]
Part of the joy of eve is that it is harsh.
try working from BPC's bought from escrow when you start production. That will let you get a feel for the market. Remember to do your maths and make sure you aren't loosing money on whatever you sell. Also remember that what ever you mine is worth whatever you could sell the minerals for.
Take a look at the map, where will things sell well? Look for niche markets. Remember that a quick sale isn't always as profitable as a steady stream of good margin sales.
Find a corp that will teach you the ropes.
Specialise early, it's easy to train into a niche role that will make you valuable to a corp, from there you will get support.
Never fly what you can't afford to loose.
It is hard to start with but the first few months will be some of the most amazing times you have spent playing a computer game.
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![Tachy Tachy](https://images.evetech.net/characters/145668360/portrait?size=64)
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:34:00 -
[25]
Yesterday's lesson: Can theft flagging, hard way
Don't worry, there are a lot of devs working on a wiki to document all the nice features in EVE - for nearly a year now.
The player guide is out of date for nearly a year in some parts, and about two years out of date in others. The tracking and missile parts are really well done though.
Pleas for a working documentation doesn't fall on deaf ears, but don't hold your breath while undocumented features are changed, documented features are replaced or new features are added.
I think it is a good time to point to evegathering.com and wiki.grismar.net among all the other sites dedicated to lessen the load on your shoulders. Unlike the official player guide, these are ingame-browser-friendly. There are a lot more and people will hand you more links when you ask for more info in game, ie. in the various help channels. --*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
![TheNecromancer TheNecromancer](https://images.evetech.net/characters/963639965/portrait?size=64)
TheNecromancer
Caldari The Royal Order
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:35:00 -
[26]
I total agree with Sabrina Curtis. this game is NOT for noobs..
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![Peter Tar Peter Tar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/649301596/portrait?size=64)
Peter Tar
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:38:00 -
[27]
When I 1st played this game and lost in 3sec EVERYTHING I had (was playing 13 days or something, rating 8h/day), I quit playing for several month. Then I started to read forums, I was reading them for 2 or 3 weeks. When I figured out how EVE works, I started a new character, joined a copr at 10th day, moved to 0.4, then to 0.0 together with alliance. It all happened in 2month period, I had good fights, some kills and loses. But I can assure you, that a newbie still can do much in eve. Get basic skills, and help tackling or mining. Basicly a good corp is all what you need.
Good Luck!
Hey Dad, is it true that, if you chat too long in mIRC and ICQ you become an idiot? gygygygy, LOL son! |
![Doragee Doragee](https://images.evetech.net/characters/630999746/portrait?size=64)
Doragee
Minmatar Unknown Society
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:41:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sabrina Curtis Thanks to everyone, apart from Ashida and Doragee (easier to not have replied, surely).
Very useful tips out there. Makes it feel better already.
Yepp, obviously...sry for that...
But all these whines, especially within the last two days, makes me cry and sometimes i can't help myself, i have to post some flames...not directly personal meant as i don't know you... :-/ --
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![Xendie Xendie](https://images.evetech.net/characters/934111852/portrait?size=64)
Xendie
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:43:00 -
[29]
a wise man said to me once when i was a new player "when in doubt, right click and read" and its suprisingly how much information you can gather by doing that.
Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
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![Sathynos Sathynos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/148211311/portrait?size=64)
Sathynos
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:44:00 -
[30]
When you sit as a noob to the table to play poker against a seasoned player you are at the same disadvantage of experience. This is not the problem of eve, just things are this way. All you need to do is to build up your own base of experience.
-- "Say yes to pron on Concord billboards" campaing. |
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