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Sprak
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.25 01:32:00 -
[1]
With ECM in its current state, ECCM is utterly useless. The simple fix? Revert to the old system of ECM where after x points you are jammed. ECCMs become incredibly useful again, and ECM is no longer the I-win button of EVE.
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vyperpit
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.25 01:41:00 -
[2]
i see bob has lowered its standards
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Brother Bender
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.25 01:45:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Brother Bender on 25/08/2006 01:45:26
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Sprak
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.25 01:46:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: vyperpit
i see bob has lowered its standards
Post with your main.
Coward
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vyperpit
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.25 01:48:00 -
[5]
Edited by: vyperpit on 25/08/2006 01:49:00
Originally by: Sprak
Originally by: vyperpit
i see bob has lowered its standards
Post with your main.
Coward
this is my current main, the main you may know me as is gronsak, but i sold him 2 months back
oh and ur idea, well its stupid, there are a few REALLLLY uber people in ur allaince, i cant believe they let u post this crap
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Luciender
Gallente
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.25 01:49:00 -
[6]
how about inorder to not gimp the dedicated ewar ships : let them keep the ability to jam on chance basis? aswell as dedicated jamming. however just reduce the chance amount by about 20-30 %..
Non ewar ships has to beat the targetted ships sensor strength or they have no chance in jamming.. (as sprak said)
i think thats fair...
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Sprak
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.25 01:51:00 -
[7]
So you're saying that there is currently nothing wrong with ECM? Because there's nothing at all screwed with a frigate jamming an Apoc with 96 sensor strength with a single multispec?
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vyperpit
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.25 01:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sprak
So you're saying that there is currently nothing wrong with ECM? Because there's nothing at all screwed with a frigate jamming an Apoc with 96 sensor strength with a single multispec?
no, im saying what your proposing is retarded
check the tomb thred of EW, its got LOTS of great ways to help solve the problem, what u suggest is stupid, talk to ur corp they will tell u the same
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vyperpit
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.25 01:55:00 -
[9]
just to note, i hate ecm and want it nerfed, but not how u suggest. look at the ew sticky, lots of great ways to fix it, but i guess u where bored and decided to just throw up a thred
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Terraform
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.25 11:36:00 -
[10]
In my opinion it's not the ECM that's broken, it's the counter to ECM that's not working as intended, if it was fixed it would be much better. Consider the old version of Ewar, you fit lots of jammers and if you exceed the enemy sensor he's perma-jammed... where's the fun in that?!
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.25 12:07:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Nicholai Pestot on 25/08/2006 12:13:42
The 'problem' is the effect that each of the types of E-War provide.
Tracking disruptors and sensor dampners both have a partial effect on their target, that can be (slightly) counteracted with modules that are often usefull in any fight.
Additionaly, with a bit of smart flying, its possible to off-set their effect (minamise transversal/close with target)
ECM on the other hand totaly breaks your lock, its effect cannot be counteracted by a bit of smart flying (other than 'oh bugger, time to go') and the only module counter is totaly useless if your opponents are not using ECM.
The supposed down side of this is that ECM will only work some of the time.The amount of time even a single multispec ECM will effect your opponent is still way out of balance.
Short term fix- CCP need to fix their (obviously broken) random number generator that is used with ecm
Long term...well.
Nicholai's Spiffy suggestion
Firstly change sensor boosters and sensor dampners to only effect locking speed.Give each of them a 50% bonus to their effect.
Change ECCM to increase the targeting range of the ship running it and ECM to lower the targeting range of the ship it is hitting. Double the optimal range of ECM.
All E-war is now balanced, all E-war has its place with its usefullness changing based on the tactics of your group.
Better yet ECM and Sensor dampners now fit in with the racial ship bonuses (gasp)
Oh shucks, sniping got nerfed at the same time......pity
________________
What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete |
Wilfan Ret'nub
Singularity.
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Posted - 2006.08.25 12:13:00 -
[12]
Even sadder is that some think EWAR is synonym for ECM ...
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No ISK, no fun |
Tao Han
Caldari
Crucial Electronics
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Posted - 2006.08.25 12:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub
Even sadder is that some think EWAR is synonym for ECM ...
Probably becasue ECM does everything EWAR modules do, but alot better
Tracking Disruptor < ECM
Sensor Dampener < ECM
Target Painter < EC.... Wait a minute, do people use Target Painters?
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Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.08.25 12:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sprak
Edited by: Sprak on 25/08/2006 01:36:06
With ECM in its current state, ECCM is utterly useless. The simple fix? Revert to the old system of ECM where after x points you are jammed. ECCMs become incredibly useful again, and ECM is no longer the I-win button of EVE. Jammers such as the Rook/Falcon/Scorpion/Blackbird are still useful because of their increased jam strength.
ECCM isnt useless, if you think it is you did something wrong.
I have seen it against me and with gangm8s, and it is so far from not working you cant even believe it.
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Dred 'Morte
Minmatar
Sammael's Legion
Arkhangelos Command
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Posted - 2006.08.25 12:39:00 -
[15]
Sensor dampener... the most unnecessary nerf of all time. Target painters had an unnecessary nerf too. Altough 37,5% boost with Target Painters II is still not that bad.
Tracking disruptors have a very limited use, but do have an use.
IMHO the only thing wrong with ECM is that it is an offense weapon, not defensive, and insted of reseting the lock, they remove the locking ability for a short amount of time. That's what is wrong with it.
Signature made by Mr Floppykickners |
Luc Boye
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.25 12:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: vyperpit
i cant believe they let u post this crap
Nobody is forbiding bob members to post anything. If Sprak finds old style ECM better, then its up to him. Coincidently, I find it better as well, at least you weren't jammed by vagabonds and frigates back then.
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Apollo Balthar
Minmatar
The Bratwurst Burglars
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Posted - 2006.08.25 13:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: vyperpit
i see bob has lowered its standards
Of course you could just refrain from replying and avoid being a troll alltogether, but that's prolly just me.
This post represent my own, my Corporation's, my mother's and my father's, my mates' and the royal families'point of view.
Now shut up and be happy!
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Exiled One
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.08.25 13:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: vyperpit
Edited by: vyperpit on 25/08/2006 01:49:00
Originally by: Sprak
Originally by: vyperpit
i see bob has lowered its standards
Post with your main.
Coward
this is my current main, the main you may know me as is gronsak, but i sold him 2 months back
oh and ur idea, well its stupid, there are a few REALLLLY uber people in ur allaince, i cant believe they let u post this crap
Gronsak? You know your char was sold illegally after that? (for wmz monnies  ) 
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.25 14:11:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sprak
Edited by: Sprak on 25/08/2006 01:36:06
With ECM in its current state, ECCM is utterly useless. The simple fix? Revert to the old system of ECM where after x points you are jammed. ECCMs become incredibly useful again, and ECM is no longer the I-win button of EVE. Jammers such as the Rook/Falcon/Scorpion/Blackbird are still useful because of their increased jam strength.
Yep, and they can permajam 6 frigs, so support is...utterly pointless. Pass.
"So you're saying that there is currently nothing wrong with ECM?"
Of course there is. But that's because of total jam / 20s cycles.
All your guns are random too, and you don't complain because each role isn't critical.
Partial jam / 10s cycle fixes it - you lose the ability to fire on SOME of your locked targets for the cycle, but don't lose lock. It redirects firepower, not blocks it. (And forcing splitting fire is good).
ECCM needs secondary bonuses yes. Make it all omni, give one line passive targeting, another line.. etc.
Nicholai, no, creating 2 very weak forms of ECM isn't "spiffy", it's "useless". Further, splitting the sensor booster (and removing ECCM) actually does little/nothing to the snipers compared to cutting the sensor booster's effect by a third (lower soft cap, which is the critically important issue!) and even making them lower sensor strenght.
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Nicose
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2006.08.25 14:11:00 -
[20]
i think it actually a decent idea, no flames please! the reasoning for this is i spent about 4 months training to be awsome in a scorpion, which i was for all of about 2 days until patch day, now any old n00b can just fit a multi spec and have just as much chance of jamming someone as me! i gave it another go not to long ago only to be sorely disapointed......before in my scorp i could jam 2-3 BS and 2 cruisers...and keep them cycle jammed....now i struggled to keep one 2 BS jammed let alone cycle jammed!
i say bring back the old EWAR system!!
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.08.25 14:24:00 -
[21]
Is ECM unbalanced?
An Armageddon with 2 active ECCM's and 2 passive ECCM's have 88 radar strength.
A scorpion with 4 amarr jammers and 4 multi's have absolutely no problem with jammig the Armageddon 90% of the time.
Is this balanced?
Tbh, I don't know. The Scrop did sacrifice 8 slots where the Armageddon only sacrificed 4 slots, so seen from that perspective, I find it fair. Its fair for 8 guns to beat a 4 slot tank  .
I would like to see how well 1 active ECCM does agenst 1 racial jammer on a non-jam specific ship before I can truly tell how well/bad it is.
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Kurieg
Universal Manufacturing Corporation
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.08.25 14:34:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Kurieg on 25/08/2006 14:35:57
1 Raven with Magnetometric racial jammer, max skills, = 9 ECM Strength.
1 Megathron with T2 Magnetometric ECCM = 41.16 sensor strength.
21.9% chance to jam.
BTW, 1 scorp with 4 Amarr racial ECM And 4 Multis
Racials = 11.25
Multi = 7.5
Geddon with 2x ECCM mids and 2x ECCM lows = 88.4 sensor strength.
1 Racial CTJ = 12.7%
1 Multi CTJ = 8.5%
Chance to jam with full cycle of 8 = (1-0.873^4 * 0.915^4) = 59.3%, which probably isn't unreasonable seeing what all the ships through into it. However, there will be jams where hte scorp still has ECM left over and can go on to try and knock other ships out of the fight, and random chances that are 50/50 are incredibly prone to streaky outcomes.
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Wilfan Ret'nub
Singularity.
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tao Han
Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub
Even sadder is that some think EWAR is synonym for ECM ...
Probably becasue ECM does everything EWAR modules do, but alot better
Hear hear. ECM will be balanced when filling a "spare" BS mid won't be such a no-brainer.
Originally by: Tao Han
Target Painter < EC.... Wait a minute, do people use Target Painters?
No ratting Typhoon is complete without a TP. Or a Rage Raven. But that's about it.
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No ISK, no fun |
Clais Monaige
Prodigy Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.08.25 21:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Nicholai Pestot
Nicholai's Spiffy suggestion
Firstly change sensor boosters and sensor dampners to only effect locking speed.Give each of them a 50% bonus to their effect.
Change ECCM to increase the targeting range of the ship running it and ECM to lower the targeting range of the ship it is hitting. Double the optimal range of ECM.
If that would gonna happen i'd suggest to exchange the effects since Caldari are more sniper than Gallente are, and dampers as Gallente module would fullfill that role perfectly.
Additionally i don't get it why Minmatar should get a target painter bonus while flying small "tiny-sig-radius" ships - it better fits to Amarr as getting a counter measure to the Minni's tactis (of course along with the tracking disruption, but that's another point). And of course Minmatar should get a Nosferatu bonus as cap is the main advantage of Amarr and Nos' are the countermeasure to the Amarr's technology. Just a not too detailed thought, though.
_____________________________
- be excellent to each other -
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Liet Traep
Minmatar
Black Lance
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.25 22:14:00 -
[25]
I think nerfing ecm on non ecm ships is the way to go. I expect to get jammed bym a scorp or blackbird. Getting jammed by an assault frig is kind of whack.
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Arkanor
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.25 22:24:00 -
[26]
ECM should just break a lock, with a 20 second activation time. Battleships will take about 10 seconds to reaquire but jamming frigs would be rather nonviable, just like sensor damping or TDing them.
Originally by: Ghosthowl
WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face.
Originally by: HippoKing
I just cried, you know that? |
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Imaran
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2006.08.26 00:08:00 -
[27]
Cleaned, don't troll.
Sexeh CRC Website
[email protected]
Public Service Announcement : Contrary to popular belief, Fishcakes can not talk.
Offical Keeper of the key to Suvetar's Chastity Belt
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Azerrad
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Posted - 2006.08.26 00:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Nicholai Pestot
Firstly change sensor boosters and sensor dampners to only effect locking speed.Give each of them a 50% bonus to their effect.
Change ECCM to increase the targeting range of the ship running it and ECM to lower the targeting range of the ship it is hitting. Double the optimal range of ECM.
I'd support that suggestion, although I don't think the optimal of ECM needs to be doubled. If anything sniping range needs to be nerfed.
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Nebuli
Caldari
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.26 00:35:00 -
[29]
Just out of interest to those suggesting ECCM is great and is the answer.
Would that ECCM slot not actualy be better off taken up with a ECM of your own? jam the ship it cant jam back right? also its usefull in every encounter.
See no benefit of fitting a ECCM over an ECM of your own at all.
CEO - Art of War
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Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.08.26 01:55:00 -
[30]
Aside from minmatar getting a proper ewar ship, something does need to be done about ECM. Its so much better than the other races ewar its untrue. I say that ECM gets a max rance of 10-15 km (as well as the old points system back), and sensor damps and tracking disruptors get the 100km+ stuff.
That would mean that ECM is great, but you have to run headfirst into the other guy, and you are much more likely to want webs/scrams than using all your meds for jammers. Then, in fleet battles, one or two damp/tracking disruptor ships can start really making an effect on the battle, because most ships will be firing on the edge of the sensor range or optimal.
Two birds, one stone. *bows*
Thankyou fans im here all week
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
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