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Fleet Battles a thing of the past?

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Valtaer Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.28 03:39:00 - [1] Ok I need 2 disclaimers before I write this: 1) for some reason I can't post with my main despite trying several times but it isn't important to this post anyway. Maybe it will work this time*?? 2) I am prepared for major flamage here by you eve purists but this is a real question and I'm looking for a real answer. On Aug 26th in the afternoon EST I was in a fleet battle in Venal. Again because I don't want to get flamed I'll say we lost the battle, we were never going to win, I don't want the ship back, I'm not whining, losing is not the issue. There was a total of 69 pilots in system and we were fairly evenly matched I think. When the battle started our FC called a primary and secondary and here is what happened: I have all effects shut off The enemy fleet uncloaks (they jumped in on us), I scroll to the primary and secondary and control click them, I hit f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 f6 alt-f1 for my highs and my jammer. All my high slots start flashing, my lock goes through, my highs and jammer light up green but my ammo count doesn't go down (I use rails) neither does my missiles. My FPS drops to about 1. I appear to have stopped moving, my target reticle stops spinning around. I get a combat message that says "so and so's cruise hits you for ~400 damage" I think: wow...that's hard through shields so I hit my hardeners (i was using actives) and my shield booster. Nothing happens, then the screen refreshes, I am in structure, I pop. I warp myself to a planet. Ok, I have been in fleet battles before, bigger ones than that and I know the game lags but that is rediculous and it isn't the first time it's happened just the last. Even getting hit by rats I've been lagged out. I talked to the other pilots in the fleet and they all experienced the same thing... not an excuse for losing! I would like to talk to someone from the enemy fleet and see what they experienced. I have a new comp, 256 mb geforce vid card and a cable modem that runs (according to bandwidth testers) between 3600 kbps (not usually, this is slow) and 5119.2 kbps I have seen it over 6k before. I have talked to friends in other regions of the game in other alliances and they are saying the same thing... fleet battles are dead, the server can't handle them.... What say you, forum commandos?????? Am I the proud owner of a future [Auction] 10 mil SP Caldari PvP account??? Cause I'm not really interested in continuing if this is the future of eve. Hey it posted with my main what do you know... anyway that's me.
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.28 04:22:00 - [2] Fleet battles aren't dead. When enemy comes to you with a fleet, you have to meet him with a fleet, even if you know, that 80% will be totally lagged out. May be there's some comprehensive resource on the Dragon patch, which should explain us what was all that about. Because so far Dragon patch has brought us mostly new looks in the interface, and lots of lag with that ridiculous queue system.
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd	Posted - 2006.08.28 07:04:00 - [3] This kind of thing doesnt directly affect me. However it is really disturbing. See if the same thing happens in a game like WoW, people will be annoyed, but they will live with it. This is due to the penalty of death being virtually nil in WoW. Now, if this happens in Eve, the tables are turned. Loss can be extremely painful, especially when considering (ie) 40 battleships being lagged out and all of them dying. It just removes all fairness from the game. I personally believe that there should be some kind of warp point for fleet pvp, where the warring sides are moved to their own node automatically. If this isnt possible , there is a period where both sides initiate a fleet combat acceptance. All members of those gangs are then warped to a random area in that system and all modules are unable to be activated for ie 1 minute, giving the system enough time to load all the players. Flying around is still possible. The timer would be just like the server downtime timer. This second option may not do much, but at least it would limit the mass lag that ensues when people have 50 players appear out of nowhere. Who knows if it would work. Either way, something has to be done as currently having fleet battles possible is totally unfair when loss is so severe, and having lag be the only cause of loss is a joke. Insured Research and Production Services
Doltish The Arrow Project	Posted - 2006.08.28 07:14:00 - [4] Originally by: Ricdic I personally believe that there should be some kind of warp point for fleet pvp, where the warring sides are moved to their own node automatically. Ok this has been shot down by Dev's about nine hundred times in many other threads. Moving things to new nodes requires a server shut-down, or something of the likes. It's not something that can be accomplished lightly. It would require a complete "re-do" of EVE and it's hardware to change. So it will never happen, please god stop suggesting it.
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd	Posted - 2006.08.28 07:30:00 - [5] Originally by: Doltish Originally by: Ricdic I personally believe that there should be some kind of warp point for fleet pvp, where the warring sides are moved to their own node automatically. Ok this has been shot down by Dev's about nine hundred times in many other threads. Moving things to new nodes requires a server shut-down, or something of the likes. It's not something that can be accomplished lightly. It would require a complete "re-do" of EVE and it's hardware to change. So it will never happen, please god stop suggesting it. I assume you found something to pick on, and forgot the rest of my post. Here it is in case you can't see it above: Quote: If this isnt possible , there is a period where both sides initiate a fleet combat acceptance. All members of those gangs are then warped to a random area in that system and all modules are unable to be activated for ie 1 minute, giving the system enough time to load all the players. Flying around is still possible. The timer would be just like the server downtime timer. Insured Research and Production Services
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.28 07:55:00 - [6] Sounds like Dragon Code works like a charm ... but someone forgot to disable all the stop points and extra logging from debugging. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 08:28:00 - [7] Edited by: End Yourself on 28/08/2006 08:29:13 Anyone who brings a setup containing shield booster and hardeners for a fleet battle has much bigger problems than laaaag and deserves to die anyway. Not like the shield booster will be running more than one cycle when called primary. Even with zero lag. Making ISK is sooo frickin (too) easy one can make enough for more than one t2 fitted BS(platinum insured one) in a day(just few hours) with ease. So stop whining and start slaving! Not like the other side didn't have the same problems. Maybe they just had "fleet setups" on their ships?!? --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Heritor Caldari Polytope	Posted - 2006.08.28 08:34:00 - [8] Edited by: Heritor on 28/08/2006 08:34:08 Somebody obviously started copying in book marks in each fleet.....silly thing to do but they do it Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you!
Drayce Caldari Solitary Forsaken	Posted - 2006.08.28 08:57:00 - [9] Originally by: End Yourself Edited by: End Yourself on 28/08/2006 08:29:13 Anyone who brings a setup containing shield booster and hardeners for a fleet battle has much bigger problems than laaaag and deserves to die anyway. Not like the shield booster will be running more than one cycle when called primary. Even with zero lag. Making ISK is sooo frickin (too) easy one can make enough for more than one t2 fitted BS(platinum insured one) in a day(just few hours) with ease. So stop whining and start slaving! Not like the other side didn't have the same problems. Maybe they just had "fleet setups" on their ships?!? Um, did you read the part in his post where he claims that he isn't whining about losing? The point of his post was to find out if everyone was having this issue, not a complaint that his side lost. always remember... Think before you post
Shiraz Merlot Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:04:00 - [10] Edited by: Shiraz Merlot on 28/08/2006 09:04:48 Originally by: Doltish It's not something that can be accomplished lightly. It would require a complete "re-do" of EVE and it's hardware to change. So it will never happen, please god stop suggesting it. could probably do it with VMware's Vmotion stuff tbh, if CCP wanted to license it. To the OP: it is currently impossible for a covert ops ship to survive a 'dictor or warp bubble. Until CCP fix that, expect fewer fleet battles.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Drayce Um, did you read the part in his post where he claims that he isn't whining about losing? The point of his post was to find out if everyone was having this issue, not a complaint that his side lost. Did you read the part where he "whined" and "threatened" to quit? Originally by: OP Am I the proud owner of a future [Auction] 10 mil SP Caldari PvP account??? Cause I'm not really interested in continuing if this is the future of eve. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Drayce Caldari Solitary Forsaken	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:13:00 - [12] Edited by: Drayce on 28/08/2006 09:13:30 Originally by: End Yourself Did you read the part where he "whined" and "threatened" to quit? Originally by: OP Am I the proud owner of a future [Auction] 10 mil SP Caldari PvP account??? Cause I'm not really interested in continuing if this is the future of eve. I guess we read his post differently. Still no excuse for posting as unconstructively as you did though always remember... Think before you post
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:25:00 - [13] Originally by: Drayce Edited by: Drayce on 28/08/2006 09:13:30 Originally by: End Yourself Did you read the part where he "whined" and "threatened" to quit? Originally by: OP Am I the proud owner of a future [Auction] 10 mil SP Caldari PvP account??? Cause I'm not really interested in continuing if this is the future of eve. I guess we read his post differently. Still no excuse for posting as unconstructively as you did though My post was harsh but it was NOT unconstructive at all. His setup was crap i am pretty sure. It's a good start to know that fact. 90% of the peeps who mount this kind of setups will not wake up if you aren't a bit rude. Lots even will continue mounting them on purpose. Because they do NOT care about their fleet at all. All they care about is their personal assets(in this case the BS) beeing safer(even if it is just <1% safer) And i have been through enough "noob/carebear/leecher/... alliances" to know what i am talking about. Ofc i dunno the OP and can't tell for sure BUT someone who "threatens" to quit does not deserve to be treated with kid gloves at all. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:29:00 - [14] Originally by: End Yourself My post was harsh but it was NOT unconstructive at all. His setup was crap i am pretty sure. It's a good start to know that fact. It's completely and utterly irrelevant to know that fact, unless you seriously believe that running a shield booster increases the amount of lag you suffer. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Khajit Smitty Minmatar MisFunk Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Drayce Um, did you read the part in his post where he claims that he isn't whining about losing? Thats a lost battle, 60% of the people who reply to threads dont have "Forum Thread Reading" trained to level 1.... But to the OP it is a question i wanted to know, has the lag improved at all with the new code branch and fleet battles ? Based on your encouter it sounds like it hasn't which is sad really!
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:49:00 - [16] I think you are talking about the Fleetbattle with us? o.0 I was a bit worried about jumping in but we didnt have much lag at all, some FPS-dropping yeah, but hardly any module-lag. From experience it should've been the other way around though :) Sorry you didnt have a good fight though, was quite fun for us.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:50:00 - [17] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: End Yourself My post was harsh but it was NOT unconstructive at all. His setup was crap i am pretty sure. It's a good start to know that fact. It's completely and utterly irrelevant to know that fact, unless you seriously believe that running a shield booster increases the amount of lag you suffer. If it's not a good thing to know about one's own bad setup so one can change it for the next fleet op and be more effective... well... then... nevermind... i give up. And yes, having been in alliances where a typical pvp setup incl. crap like tractor beams i am a "burnt child". Nice to know that your gangmates are not equipped to be of any help(no EW whatsoever) when you get called primary BUT will be the first to scoop any loot, isn't it? And this paragraph is not aimed at the OP btw. Disclaimer just in case anyone insists on "getting me wrong". And i was as constructive as i could. If he had named his ship type might have even linked to a good setup. Anyway, i'm out. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:57:00 - [18] I think I am thinking about the same battle as you, and the guys you were fighting were not lagged at all. I spoke to an FLA pilot just after the battle who said that you guys had lagged. I don't know how bad it had been for you, but from what I could see, it was the ECM coverage, bad primary calling and the inability to focus fire which cost you guys the battle. Of course, if you couldn't fire because of lag, that is quite a big issue. I'm not sure why (short of ebil sploiters) why the battle would have lagged for one side, and not for the other, particularly given that the hostiles jumped into YOU. As for the setups involved, yours were not impressive. Every raven that exploded blew up had a booster, that is not cool. Still, people having their hardeners off is news to me
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 10:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Chewan Mesa I think you are talking about the Fleetbattle with us? o.0 I was a bit worried about jumping in but we didnt have much lag at all, some FPS-dropping yeah, but hardly any module-lag. From experience it should've been the other way around though :) Sorry you didnt have a good fight though, was quite fun for us. I think if the jumping in part is done properly(jump in 2 or 3 groups so noone gets emergency warped out, then when everyone is there the gang leader clicks regroup to uncloak everyone at same time) then "(client?)lag should favor" the gang who jumped in. The "defending gang" still has the advantage of beeing at optimum range, aligned at speed allready. And they won't be jumping straight inside an interdictor bubble as well. Of course emergency warps due to jump in lag, peeps crashing while jumping in..... can screw it up badly for the "attackers". --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Rayvonuk	Posted - 2006.08.28 10:09:00 - [20] SO has the lag at fleet battles improved, not much reason to keep playing if what im aiming for doesnt work right.
Turiya Flesharrower Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.28 10:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Valtaer Ok I need 2 disclaimers before I write this: 1) for some reason I can't post with my main despite trying several times but it isn't important to this post anyway. Maybe it will work this time*?? 2) I am prepared for major flamage here by you eve purists but this is a real question and I'm looking for a real answer. On Aug 26th in the afternoon EST I was in a fleet battle in Venal. Again because I don't want to get flamed I'll say we lost the battle, we were never going to win, I don't want the ship back, I'm not whining, losing is not the issue. There was a total of 69 pilots in system and we were fairly evenly matched I think. When the battle started our FC called a primary and secondary and here is what happened: I have all effects shut off The enemy fleet uncloaks (they jumped in on us), I scroll to the primary and secondary and control click them, I hit f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 f6 alt-f1 for my highs and my jammer. All my high slots start flashing, my lock goes through, my highs and jammer light up green but my ammo count doesn't go down (I use rails) neither does my missiles. My FPS drops to about 1. I appear to have stopped moving, my target reticle stops spinning around. I get a combat message that says "so and so's cruise hits you for ~400 damage" I think: wow...that's hard through shields so I hit my hardeners (i was using actives) and my shield booster. Nothing happens, then the screen refreshes, I am in structure, I pop. I warp myself to a planet. Ok, I have been in fleet battles before, bigger ones than that and I know the game lags but that is rediculous and it isn't the first time it's happened just the last. Even getting hit by rats I've been lagged out. I talked to the other pilots in the fleet and they all experienced the same thing... not an excuse for losing! I would like to talk to someone from the enemy fleet and see what they experienced. I have a new comp, 256 mb geforce vid card and a cable modem that runs (according to bandwidth testers) between 3600 kbps (not usually, this is slow) and 5119.2 kbps I have seen it over 6k before. I have talked to friends in other regions of the game in other alliances and they are saying the same thing... fleet battles are dead, the server can't handle them.... What say you, forum commandos?????? Am I the proud owner of a future [Auction] 10 mil SP Caldari PvP account??? Cause I'm not really interested in continuing if this is the future of eve. Hey it posted with my main what do you know... anyway that's me. I'm quite surprised that you guys had problems the other night; only one or two of our pilots complained of debilitating lag in that fight and I think one of them was the guy you called primary initially so it could be related to that. Personally I was fairly apprehensive about jumping in on you guys since we'd been experiencing problems in the area with jump lag and even jump queues. However I have to say that it was probably one of the most lag-free battles I've ever been in; after I gave the regroup command, we had about 10 seconds where the game froze for everyone but then everything ran smoothly for me at least. If you want a look at what happened first-hand, check out the video here. As you can see from that video, it was pretty smooth riding all of the way through; very surprising I must say considering our experiences during the evening. It's a real shame that unpredictable lag can tilt the balance of a battle, especially given that the battle was relatively small in scale compared to what's happening in D7 and Fountain. The system we fought in probably had a low node priority but that's not a real excuse for this kind of performance. I don't think we should have to move to a high-priority node system in order to have a good time. I'm sorry to hear that lag took the fun away for you guys -----
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.28 10:39:00 - [22] On the second thought, if the new prelaoding only works for the pilots warping in, the defender is at a big disadvantage now. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 10:43:00 - [23] Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: End Yourself My post was harsh but it was NOT unconstructive at all. His setup was crap i am pretty sure. It's a good start to know that fact. It's completely and utterly irrelevant to know that fact, unless you seriously believe that running a shield booster increases the amount of lag you suffer. If it's not a good thing to know about one's own bad setup so one can change it for the next fleet op and be more effective... well... then... nevermind... i give up. And yes, having been in alliances where a typical pvp setup incl. crap like tractor beams i am a "burnt child". Nice to know that your gangmates are not equipped to be of any help(no EW whatsoever) when you get called primary BUT will be the first to scoop any loot, isn't it? And this paragraph is not aimed at the OP btw. Disclaimer just in case anyone insists on "getting me wrong". And i was as constructive as i could. If he had named his ship type might have even linked to a good setup. Anyway, i'm out. You're "out", but then you keep yapping crap... Sucks that one side was lagged out, and the other was not... Certainly not fair play (not the fault of any players) It's too bad CCP's ineptness gets in the way of the good fun we all pay monthly subs for... I'll never understand game companies who accept lag like this. Lag is part of MMO's, yadda yadda yadda... When is an MMO company going to finally get it right? Why make a game that can't handle one of the major attractions of the game, fleet battles??? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
NoNameNewbie Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.28 11:08:00 - [24] gg the hope: dragon code dragon came, dragon still lags like ** tbh i've given up hoping that ccp even tries to get anything sorted fleetbattle wise. Only thing you can do is this: bring so many ppl that the whole server crahes every ***** time someone does a fleetbattle. All ppl can't play = everyone whining = either ccp does something to fix it or they have to remove it from game.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 11:12:00 - [25] Originally by: NoNameNewbie gg the hope: dragon code dragon came, dragon still lags like ** tbh i've given up hoping that ccp even tries to get anything sorted fleetbattle wise. Only thing you can do is this: bring so many ppl that the whole server crahes every ***** time someone does a fleetbattle. All ppl can't play = everyone whining = either ccp does something to fix it or they have to remove it from game. I'd like to know, what the hell will they do when they get 1000 vs. 1000 fleet battles on Serenity? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Fubear	Posted - 2006.08.28 11:34:00 - [26] Until CCP introduces dynamic node balancing, any sort of large-scale combat is impossible. If you have more than the average number of people the system has to handle, then things get laggy. When two fleets clash, you bring a lot more poeple into a system that is usual, and the servers cannot cope. Even if CCP knows that there is going to be a large battle in a system, they will not give the node the power it will need (this has been confirmed by Oveur), because after the battle the CPU cycles assigned to that system are completely wasted. The way the servers currently work, they cannot cope with a sudden convergence of players fighting in the same system. The only solution to this is dynamic load balancing. It is not impossible to program a dynamic load balancing system, and anyone who says otherwise is lying. It may be difficult to implement one within an exisitng system, and an awful lot of work as well, but this work needs to be done if Eve is going to continue to grow. Of course CCP probably look at the financial costs involved and push the idea to the back burner, so to answer the Op; No fleet battles are a thing of the past, but do not ever expect to have one without massive lag issues outside of a hub system.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 11:42:00 - [27] Edited by: End Yourself on 28/08/2006 11:45:40 Originally by: Bhaal You're "out", but then you keep yapping crap... Til now i have made one post after the "i'm out"-statement which was meant as i'm out of the fitting discussion. THIS POST Pls point me to a single tiny amount of "crap" in that post. Btw just for your interest i have just watched the video and had a look at all BS kills on beagle killboard. Judging by the BS killmails out of 10 BS killed total 7 were fitted... well... let's say suboptimal. Megathron full of cap rechargers. All ravens "shield tanked". One Raven with tractor beam as well, yay. The other 3 killed BS had good fleet fittings. This battle would have been lost without lag as well. Blaming lag is allways nice and easy. It won't help you to win the next fleetbattle though. By the way those 3 BS are IRON. The other 7 are not. Might want to ask your allies for help with fleet setups. And if you insist on fitting shield hardeners and boosters to your fleet battle ravens(i would suggest taking a scorp instead btw, raven is a nice ship for smaller gangs but that's about it) at least have the hardeners running and don't think you will have time to activate them once called primary. I'd suggest "exploiting" ECM as long as it isn't "fixed" instead of tanking though. The OP btw was in "shield tanked moa"(ok, one multispec) during the fight. He was one of the first to die. Just one minute after the first takedown. My educated guess is that he got pretty much instapopped. And the laaag he was experiencing was pretty much just himself getting into his pod. I'd say just bad luck being one of the first targets. Cruisers don't survive "very long" once under fire. And yes, i'm out now finally. IRON got a good list of suggested fleet setups for all kind of ships. Seen it myself and can only recommend approaching them. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics	Posted - 2006.08.28 11:51:00 - [28] Originally by: Bhaal Why make a game that can't handle one of the major attractions of the game, fleet battles??? Why continue to promote it as a outstanding feature in every interview you see ouver give. Why continue to push the game in a direction where it is an essential part to make things click. Those would be better questions bhaal. It doesn't work now does it, but i very much doubt you will get an answer to either. ______ Long ago one gorgeous night, we let the stars grow free. We let Zhuge do that once, he came back carrying a traffic cone, a forsale sign and three empty bottles of dutch lager. He also lost his Zimmer Frame... - Imaran
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 11:57:00 - [29] Originally by: End Yourself Edited by: End Yourself on 28/08/2006 11:45:40 Originally by: Bhaal You're "out", but then you keep yapping crap... Til now i have made one post after the "i'm out"-statement which was meant as i'm out of the fitting discussion. THIS POST Pls point me to a single tiny amount of "crap" in that post. Btw just for your interest i have just watched the video and had a look at all BS kills on beagle killboard. Judging by the BS killmails out of 10 BS killed total 7 were fitted... well... let's say suboptimal. Megathron full of cap rechargers. All ravens "shield tanked". One Raven with tractor beam as well, yay. The other 3 killed BS had good fleet fittings. This battle would have been lost without lag as well. Blaming lag is allways nice and easy. It won't help you to win the next fleetbattle though. By the way those 3 BS are IRON. The other 7 are not. Might want to ask your allies for help with fleet setups. And if you insist on fitting shield hardeners and boosters to your fleet battle ravens(i would suggest taking a scorp instead btw, raven is a nice ship for smaller gangs but that's about it) at least have the hardeners running and don't think you will have time to activate them once called primary. I'd suggest "exploiting" ECM as long as it isn't "fixed" instead of tanking though. The OP btw was in "shield tanked moa"(ok, one multispec) during the fight. He was one of the first to die. Just one minute after the first takedown. My educated guess is that he got pretty much instapopped. And the laaag he was experiencing was pretty much just himself getting into his pod. I'd say just bad luck being one of the first targets. Cruisers don't survive "very long" once under fire. And yes, i'm out now finally. IRON got a good list of suggested fleet setups for all kind of ships. Seen it myself and can only recommend approaching them. What's your point? That they would have lost due to improper fittings even if there was no lag? Fine, but that's not the problem here now is it? They could be lying about the lag, but even if that is true, we all know the lag is there, and it's a game killer... Again, I wait to see how the Chinese server deals with this... System ques? That's laughable... Talk about an immersion breaker. (sorry, you cannot supply those reinforcements to defend your outpost until more of your corps pods are popped and the number of players in system is reduced to an acceptable level) Sharding is better than system ques IMO... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Makhaira Gallente Lay Low	Posted - 2006.08.28 12:07:00 - [30] throwing in my 2 pence, the other day (couple of days after Dragon deployment iirc), my corp and a few others formed a squad of about 10 ships, and off we went looking for NMTZ (hi guys! :p) who we were at war with. Few skirmishes round a station, several NMTZ ships dead, zero casualties for us, all good. We then SS'd, and headed to the gate where we had heard that some NMTZ forces were located. (I'd like to add at this point that we knew the other side of the gate was clear due to a scout ). Get to gate, find about 12 NMTZ ships, call primary, engage. Then another 5 NMTZ ships arrive and about 10 fighters. All of a sudden, 10sec lag, impossible to do anything, whole squad just warps out, several ships lost. Now as in the original post, I'm not saying we would have won (fighters would have caused us MAJOR issues apart from anything), but with small local pop, no gate activity, and a relatively small scale engagement, surely there is no need for lag of that magnitude. Just my experiences.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 12:28:00 - [31] Originally by: Bhaal What's your point? That they would have lost due to improper fittings even if there was no lag? Fine, but that's not the problem here now is it? They could be lying about the lag, but even if that is true, we all know the lag is there, and it's a game killer... Well one of my points is that i'm still unsure if there was that bad lag at all. I don't say _he_ is lying. I said a moa(which the OP happened to be flying) is an instapop for a few BS. Also he seemed to be unlucky to be one of the first who got shot at. Not very concentrated fire but 2 BS down a cruiser within no time. And being popped during a battle there is bad lag entering your pod. His client prolly showed him still in his ship while he was not anymore. And can't activate mods in that case of course. Extremely one sided lag doesnt make sense to me. And he was talking about module activation lag. There of course are situations where lag favors one side. Fighting at a POS for example. But that isn't because one side('s pilot) has uber lag and the other's doesn't. It is because POS guns are not affected by lag. And well usually only one side has guns at the POS. Almost everyone seems to have a problem with lag nowadays. We know one of the main reasons. Still a thread i started today just as a test seems to further confirm my opinion that noone is willing to sacrifice a single of his bookmarks for a better EvE experience. Everyone prolly just feels he as an individual can't achieve anything anyway. Just like in RL. :/ And don't tell me RA will create 10 new bms for every one you delete anyway. j/k --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.28 12:36:00 - [32] Originally by: End Yourself Btw just for your interest i have just watched the video and had a look at all BS kills on beagle killboard. Judging by the BS killmails out of 10 BS killed total 7 were fitted... well... let's say suboptimal. Megathron full of cap rechargers. All ravens "shield tanked". One Raven with tractor beam as well, yay. The other 3 killed BS had good fleet fittings. This battle would have been lost without lag as well. Blaming lag is allways nice and easy. It won't help you to win the next fleetbattle though. Have you never ended up in a medium scale battle with an NPC setup? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Garramon Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.28 12:38:00 - [33] Make sure you have your log closed. For some reason the fact that ~50% of the people replying to the thread fail to read and understand the point of the OP is hilarious.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 12:42:00 - [34] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr To be honest End, you can't talk about fittings and tactics of other corps. Your corp gets a kill or two every 3 or so days if that (if you KB is anything to go by) and the rest of your corp fits 4 stabs onto most BS. Now fine if you want to run away, but stabs arn't going to win you any prizes for the best tank fit on Domi's and 'geddon's. Still very bitter about beeing smartbombed by a stabbed geddon? Sitting like a sitting duck at warpin point to planet in ceptor 4tw i'd say. That tank setups are NOT the way to go for fleets is well known. That cap rechargers in med slots are NOT the way to go for pvp... That a tractor beam is pretty useless in pvp... I really think we do NOT have to discuss this phrix. You know these 3 "secrets" as well as i do. And i really don't want to derail this thread to discuss our corp's issues. There is nothing to discuss anyway. we > you --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 12:45:00 - [35] Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr To be honest End, you can't talk about fittings and tactics of other corps. Your corp gets a kill or two every 3 or so days if that (if you KB is anything to go by) and the rest of your corp fits 4 stabs onto most BS. Now fine if you want to run away, but stabs arn't going to win you any prizes for the best tank fit on Domi's and 'geddon's. Still very bitter about beeing smartbombed by a stabbed geddon? Sitting like a sitting duck at warpin point to planet in ceptor 4tw i'd say. That tank setups are NOT the way to go for fleets is well known. That cap rechargers in med slots are NOT the way to go for pvp... That a tractor beam is pretty useless in pvp... I really think we do NOT have to discuss this phrix. You know these 3 "secrets" as well as i do. And i really don't want to derail this thread to discuss our corp's issues. There is nothing to discuss anyway. we > you You already derailed the thread way back when you started *****ing about fittings, why stop now? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Turiya Flesharrower Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.28 12:53:00 - [36] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: End Yourself Btw just for your interest i have just watched the video and had a look at all BS kills on beagle killboard. Judging by the BS killmails out of 10 BS killed total 7 were fitted... well... let's say suboptimal. Megathron full of cap rechargers. All ravens "shield tanked". One Raven with tractor beam as well, yay. The other 3 killed BS had good fleet fittings. This battle would have been lost without lag as well. Blaming lag is allways nice and easy. It won't help you to win the next fleetbattle though. Have you never ended up in a medium scale battle with an NPC setup? To be fair, that fleet chased us out to Venal; I'd imagine that people joining that gang would have switched out of their NPC setups before coming after us. It's not like the battle consisted of us warping in on a gang of NPC'ers in some belt Anyway, as the video shows, I experienced little to no lag myself. I can't comment on the technical aspects of per-client load balancing but you'd think that if I had no lag then it would be roughly the same for everyone else since we're all in the same system and on the same grid. -----
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 12:57:00 - [37] Originally by: Bhaal You already derailed the thread way back when you started *****ing about fittings, why stop now? Maybe but just maybe because weewee/OC and TCD propaganda will not help FLA(and friends) to do better next time. And OC/TCD issues will not be discussed anywhere in public anyway, at least not by us. I am still pretty sure that this fight was not lost due to lag. Even if it might have appeared like it to the OP getting instapopped in his cruiser. BTW if the OP was lagged out that badly pls explain to me how he got at least onto one killmail? And how many bms did you delete yet Bhaal? --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Goberth Ludwig eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.28 13:21:00 - [38] Originally by: End Yourself Edited by: End Yourself on 28/08/2006 08:29:13 Anyone who brings a setup containing shield booster and hardeners for a fleet battle has much bigger problems than laaaag and deserves to die anyway. Not like the shield booster will be running more than one cycle when called primary. Even with zero lag. Making ISK is sooo frickin (too) easy one can make enough for more than one t2 fitted BS(platinum insured one) in a day(just few hours) with ease. So stop whining and start slaving! Not like the other side didn't have the same problems. Maybe they just had "fleet setups" on their ships?!? Lmao what a huge troll. Total shame on you. - Gob [IXC] Admiral Goberius
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 13:23:00 - [39] Quote: And how many bms did you delete yet Bhaal? What? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Valtaer Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.28 13:48:00 - [40] AH HA! I knew I would get beat up for something stupid by the forum commandos. As for my set up, I was in a Moa and was already out flying around when the gang was formed so I had to catch up to them, I was about 7 jumps out so rather than slying back and switching ships I just flew out there NOT THAT IT MATTERS. Thank you whoever you are for missing the point, I should be able to run a shield hardener without bogging down the server I don't think that is too much to ask. Ok you Beagle guys are stand up for posting like you did, I thank you for that. As I said before, we were probably not going to win that fight anyway. You guys had way too many gunnery speced pilots and we were way too missile heavy (yes, it makes a difference PREPARE FOR FLAME*) so I would never never get on the forums and make lag excuses for losing just wondering what it was like from your side. Ok well, question answered. I'm sure we'll meet again out there but next time I will check here before I fit my ship to make sure no one gets angry at me. A shame you can't get someone from CCP to comment on this. I put in (what I thought) was a decent petition just asking if there was a fix in the works... amazingly, no response. As for whining about quitting the game? So what, people quit games all the time there's only 100 out there to play. I guess I don't take it as seriously as some people but people come and go every day. I will leave by saying: WWWWWHHHHHHAAAAAAA I lagged out and died in a fleet battle WWWWWHHHHHHAAAAAAA I lost a t1 cruiser and now I have to rat for 6 weeks straight to replace it WWHHAAAAAAAA WWWWWHHHHHAAAAAAAA I had active hardeners on my ship and got all blowed up WWWWWHHHHAAAAA If this game doesn't give me what I want I'm going to show you all and quit to play bejeweled on yahoo.com
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.08.28 13:53:00 - [41] Petitions aren't for whining in. If you want a fix, forums. If you want something the GMs can do something about, petition.
Valtaer Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.28 13:56:00 - [42] One more thing. I know in a cruiser you could have 7 hardeners and still get insta popped by a fleet that size... the thing I was trying to figure is was it just insta pop lag that you get when you enter your pod in a fleet battle or was I actually doing something and it just wasn't registering. I knew it would start this long string of posting but I was seriously curious. If I ended up on a kill mail (which I didn't know) then I must have been shooting at something I guess we'll wait and see how the bugs get worked out. If someone else gets into a fleet battle in the next couple of days, let me know how it turns out (the lag, I don't care who won).
Turiya Flesharrower Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.28 14:20:00 - [43] Originally by: Valtaer One more thing. I know in a cruiser you could have 7 hardeners and still get insta popped by a fleet that size... the thing I was trying to figure is was it just insta pop lag that you get when you enter your pod in a fleet battle or was I actually doing something and it just wasn't registering. I knew it would start this long string of posting but I was seriously curious. If I ended up on a kill mail (which I didn't know) then I must have been shooting at something I guess we'll wait and see how the bugs get worked out. If someone else gets into a fleet battle in the next couple of days, let me know how it turns out (the lag, I don't care who won). There is a lot of pseudo-lag associated with session changes (i.e your ship blowing up and your pod appearing) so that would be part of the equation. However it looks like you popped 30-90 seconds into the battle so obviously you were experiencing a lot of lag before that happened. Kudos to you and the other FLA pilots in the fleet for chasing us all the way out to Venal; that was very cool -----
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 14:33:00 - [44] Originally by: Goberth Ludwig Lmao what a huge troll. Total shame on you. Somehow i doubt you would like to command a gang/fleet consisting 70% of this kind of setups. But guess you did not read the thread anyway gob. C'mon tell me you can't be bothered. Originally by: Bhaal What?Few months back I had ZERO BM's, as I deleted them all...But my Corp/Alliance doesn't like that very much...I hate BM's, but not sure why you asked me this... If you don't know why i asked then you prolly just overlooked my reply to your earlier post. Bookmarks are at least according to CCP the root of lag. Still noone is willing to delete some of his own precious. I'm "babysitting" accounts of friends during vacation alot atm and nearly ALL have those redundant or useless bookmarks. I had them too before i decided to delete as many as i can this weekend. If most of us would get rid of some, it would allready help alot, at least for a while til CCP comes up with a solution. My p&p even loads in less than "half an hour" now. link to thread just to keep bm discussion out of here, anyone who still thinks i'm just trolling in here feel free to troll in "my thread" as well Originally by: Valtaer One more thing. I know in a cruiser you could have 7 hardeners and still get insta popped by a fleet that size... the thing I was trying to figure is was it just insta pop lag that you get when you enter your pod in a fleet battle or was I actually doing something and it just wasn't registering. I knew it would start this long string of posting but I was seriously curious. If I ended up on a kill mail (which I didn't know) then I must have been shooting at something Sorry if the first post was a "tad" harsh, think i made pretty clear it wasn't about trolling later. As i said earlier allready i guess you were just facing a combination of usual few seconds lag when they uncloaked all at the same time using gang commands, bad luck beeing one of the first targets while flying only a cruiser and alot more lag when entering your capsule. Btw regarding your earlier statement that you would have lost anyway due to having mainly missile boats: It was a short range slugfest as you can see in the video. If all your Ravens and Scorps would have been fitted with(overpowered) ECM you would have not only gave em a good fight but "won" imho. Torp Ravens are bad for the usual fleet fight(200km+, t2 guns+ammo....) but at 0-20km they own. The hostile gunboats were even mainly long range ones so there tracking is bad at close range. Wasn't you who decided what to fit on the Ravens of course. As for quitting there is no problem with people quitting, if they don't like the game. "Threatening" to quit on the forums is unacceptable imho. It's not like CCP doesn't know about the problem and i am pretty sure trying to do their best to solve it. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Lienzo Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.28 14:34:00 - [45] The best thing CCP can do with petititions and such is in 90% of cases do nothing. If CCP doesn't bother with kissing the boo boos, players won't take risks without meaning to. If players have no expectation of reimbursement = not as many will do fleet fights or other risky moves. They will have adapted, and can then be thought of as a more elevated group of mud guppies. The queue is enormous because CCP has taken on too many responsibilities. Let the players be responsible. They'll thank you in the end. Maybe.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 14:43:00 - [46] Quote: If you don't know why i asked then you prolly just overlooked my reply to your earlier post. Bookmarks are at least according to CCP the root of lag. Still noone is willing to delete some of his own precious. I'm "babysitting" accounts of friends during vacation alot atm and nearly ALL have those redundant or useless bookmarks. I had them too before i decided to delete as many as i can this weekend. If most of us would get rid of some, it would allready help alot, at least for a while til CCP comes up with a solution. My p&p even loads in less than "half an hour" now. Ok, I thought you meant that somehow I, or players like me are going around purposely causing lag via BM's during a fleet battle... No, I hate BM's I wish CCP would abolish them totally and go with the star chart idea... Explorers make star charts via scans, copy them with skills & such, sell on the market and those charts degrade over time. Every celestial object in the system at the time of scan becomes a 0km warpable object. Charts last for 3 months before you need to upgrade... Oh, and you have a star chart tab in P&P with subsequent Corp & Alliance tabs. Your corp or alliance can place all the starcharts in the corp HQ hangar and everyone can acces the chart, and don't have to have their own... It's a great idea... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 14:52:00 - [47] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: If you don't know why i asked then you prolly just overlooked my reply to your earlier post. Bookmarks are at least according to CCP the root of lag. Still noone is willing to delete some of his own precious. I'm "babysitting" accounts of friends during vacation alot atm and nearly ALL have those redundant or useless bookmarks. I had them too before i decided to delete as many as i can this weekend. If most of us would get rid of some, it would allready help alot, at least for a while til CCP comes up with a solution. My p&p even loads in less than "half an hour" now. Ok, I thought you meant that somehow I, or players like me are going around purposely causing lag via BM's during a fleet battle... No, I hate BM's I wish CCP would abolish them totally and go with the star chart idea... Explorers make star charts via scans, copy them with skills & such, sell on the market and those charts degrade over time. Every celestial object in the system at the time of scan becomes a 0km warpable object. Charts last for 3 months before you need to upgrade... Oh, and you have a star chart tab in P&P with subsequent Corp & Alliance tabs. Your corp or alliance can place all the starcharts in the corp HQ hangar and everyone can acces the chart, and don't have to have their own... It's a great idea... The idea is better than just adding a "warp to at 0km" option but both have the same flaw imho: They nerf "sucking bubbles" into oblivion. Usually you just have gate to gate bookmarks in most systems so setting up a sucking bubble(esp. in systems with only two gates) is highly likely to catch someone, stop slow moving ships from getting through your camp at all....... If you can instawarp on top of the gate from every direction in a system by just using warp at 0km one can just forget about sucking bubbles, might catch an afk traveller but that could be caught without bubble anyway. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Turiya Flesharrower Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:00:00 - [48] Originally by: End Yourself The idea is better than just adding a "warp to at 0km" option but both have the same flaw imho: They nerf "sucking bubbles" into oblivion. Usually you just have gate to gate bookmarks in most systems so setting up a sucking bubble(esp. in systems with only two gates) is highly likely to catch someone, stop slow moving ships from getting through your camp at all....... If you can instawarp on top of the gate from every direction in a system by just using warp at 0km one can just forget about sucking bubbles, might catch an afk traveller but that could be caught without bubble anyway. True, but they could easily modify the code for bubbles to compensate for that. Obviously though, this is just a big can of worms waiting to be opened up and there are probably massive flaws that'll break gate combat as we know it. -----
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:01:00 - [49] Edited by: Bhaal on 28/08/2006 15:06:08 Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal Quote: If you don't know why i asked then you prolly just overlooked my reply to your earlier post. Bookmarks are at least according to CCP the root of lag. Still noone is willing to delete some of his own precious. I'm "babysitting" accounts of friends during vacation alot atm and nearly ALL have those redundant or useless bookmarks. I had them too before i decided to delete as many as i can this weekend. If most of us would get rid of some, it would allready help alot, at least for a while til CCP comes up with a solution. My p&p even loads in less than "half an hour" now. Ok, I thought you meant that somehow I, or players like me are going around purposely causing lag via BM's during a fleet battle... No, I hate BM's I wish CCP would abolish them totally and go with the star chart idea... Explorers make star charts via scans, copy them with skills & such, sell on the market and those charts degrade over time. Every celestial object in the system at the time of scan becomes a 0km warpable object. Charts last for 3 months before you need to upgrade... Oh, and you have a star chart tab in P&P with subsequent Corp & Alliance tabs. Your corp or alliance can place all the starcharts in the corp HQ hangar and everyone can acces the chart, and don't have to have their own... It's a great idea... The idea is better than just adding a "warp to at 0km" option but both have the same flaw imho: They nerf "sucking bubbles" into oblivion. Usually you just have gate to gate bookmarks in most systems so setting up a sucking bubble(esp. in systems with only two gates) is highly likely to catch someone, stop slow moving ships from getting through your camp at all....... If you can instawarp on top of the gate from every direction in a system by just using warp at 0km one can just forget about sucking bubbles, might catch an afk traveller but that could be caught without bubble anyway. That's why a while back I proposed an upgrade to warp bubbles, probes, etc... Being able to triangulate 3-6-9-12 of them 100's of km's apart and making a net... Not just at a gate either, but anywhere in system, and anyone warping through gets pulled out, not just sucked into a bubble at the end of warp... Then sentry guns could be eliminated from low sec gates IMO... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:19:00 - [50] Originally by: Bhaal That's why a while back I proposed an upgrade to warp bubbles, probes, etc... Being able to triangulate 3-6-9-12 of them 100's of km's apart and making a net... Not just at a gate either, but anywhere in system, and anyone warping through gets pulled out, not just sucked into a bubble at the end of warp... Then sentry guns could be eliminated from low sec gates IMO... Idea sound really cool. I'm not a big fan of camping for hours though so deploying this nets would have to be done very quick. Different type of interdiction sphere maybe. Or just 3 ganged ships dropping one bubble each to form such a net instantly. Also sadly opening a can of worms problem as mentioned before. Fix bugs and lag first. Then cool changes. Thought about the starchart idea some more. basic charts which just allow gate->gate travel, more expensive medium charts for gate to gate, station to gate and gate to station and VERY expensive highend charts which allow 0km warp from anywhere would maybe a good idea. So one would end up with the high end ones for your home region, medium ones for surrounding space and basic for everywhere else. I'd prefer them to be sold by NPC tho, really need some more ISK sinks. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:21:00 - [51] /me looks innocent Just in case anyone considers the thread derailed i blame bhaal, lol --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Turiya Flesharrower Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:22:00 - [52] Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal That's why a while back I proposed an upgrade to warp bubbles, probes, etc... Being able to triangulate 3-6-9-12 of them 100's of km's apart and making a net... Not just at a gate either, but anywhere in system, and anyone warping through gets pulled out, not just sucked into a bubble at the end of warp... Then sentry guns could be eliminated from low sec gates IMO... Idea sound really cool. I'm not a big fan of camping for hours though so deploying this nets would have to be done very quick. Different type of interdiction sphere maybe. Or just 3 ganged ships dropping one bubble each to form such a net instantly. Also sadly opening a can of worms problem as mentioned before. Fix bugs and lag first. Then cool changes. Thought about the starchart idea some more. basic charts which just allow gate->gate travel, more expensive medium charts for gate to gate, station to gate and gate to station and VERY expensive highend charts which allow 0km warp from anywhere would maybe a good idea. So one would end up with the high end ones for your home region, medium ones for surrounding space and basic for everywhere else. I'd prefer them to be sold by NPC tho, really need some more ISK sinks. This starchart idea sounds pretty good. I agree that they should be sold by NPCs exclusively, an interesting addition would be if NPC rats dropped starcharts of their own for certain systems; basically bookmarks leading to interesting sights or spawns in deadspace. -----
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:29:00 - [53] Edited by: Bhaal on 28/08/2006 15:29:47 Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal That's why a while back I proposed an upgrade to warp bubbles, probes, etc... Being able to triangulate 3-6-9-12 of them 100's of km's apart and making a net... Not just at a gate either, but anywhere in system, and anyone warping through gets pulled out, not just sucked into a bubble at the end of warp... Then sentry guns could be eliminated from low sec gates IMO... Idea sound really cool. I'm not a big fan of camping for hours though so deploying this nets would have to be done very quick. Different type of interdiction sphere maybe. Or just 3 ganged ships dropping one bubble each to form such a net instantly. Also sadly opening a can of worms problem as mentioned before. Fix bugs and lag first. Then cool changes. Thought about the starchart idea some more. basic charts which just allow gate->gate travel, more expensive medium charts for gate to gate, station to gate and gate to station and VERY expensive highend charts which allow 0km warp from anywhere would maybe a good idea. So one would end up with the high end ones for your home region, medium ones for surrounding space and basic for everywhere else. I'd prefer them to be sold by NPC tho, really need some more ISK sinks. This starchart idea sounds pretty good. I agree that they should be sold by NPCs exclusively, an interesting addition would be if NPC rats dropped starcharts of their own for certain systems; basically bookmarks leading to interesting sights or spawns in deadspace. Yeah, but the whole point is that of exploration, and another profession... Point is, if BM's are the major lag contributor in fleet battles, they need go! I had zero BM's and thought that was great, until I had to travel anywhere, go on an op and then have to log out for dinner and have no BM's to get home, etc... I envision, system, constellation, region star charts being compiled by explorer's who get a nice bit of profit for their craft... (once he gets a chart he can only copy it a few times) When you log into the game, the system checks your corp, your alliance, and what star charts you have. Then when you log in the game knows what you can warp to at 0km... (don't know if this is even possible) And no, these warp disruption nets would not be able to be setup fast... If you're chasing someone, you need to have friends ahead with sufficient skills & whatnot to setup a proper "road block", etc... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:40:00 - [54] Originally by: Bhaal Yeah, but the whole point is that of exploration, and another profession... Point is, if BM's are the major lag contributor in fleet battles, they need go! I had zero BM's and thought that was great, until I had to travel anywhere, go on an op and then have to log out for dinner and have no BM's to get home, etc... I envision, system, constellation, region star charts being compiled by explorer's who get a nice bit of profit for their craft... (once he gets a chart he can only copy it a few times) When you log into the game, the system checks your corp, your alliance, and what star charts you have. Then when you log in the game knows what you can warp to at 0km... (don't know if this is even possible) And no, these warp disruption nets would not be able to be setup fast... If you're chasing someone, you need to have friends ahead with sufficient skills & whatnot to setup a proper "road block", etc... Well making(setting them up, not copying) bookmarks was a "profession". And it even required some skills(RL skills) to do so. If you got any ideas how to make it an exciting profession i'd be up for it. Well not personally. But i guess it would just be another tedious thing as exciting as mining ice in jita. Well due to suicide attacks in highsec prolly even less exciting. Maybe as a compromise make NPC sell starcharts on market in empire. Make them available via agent missions in NPC .0 space(stain, fountain......) And add a "new" profession by allowing players to make charts of player owned .0 space. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:45:00 - [55] Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal Yeah, but the whole point is that of exploration, and another profession... Point is, if BM's are the major lag contributor in fleet battles, they need go! I had zero BM's and thought that was great, until I had to travel anywhere, go on an op and then have to log out for dinner and have no BM's to get home, etc... I envision, system, constellation, region star charts being compiled by explorer's who get a nice bit of profit for their craft... (once he gets a chart he can only copy it a few times) When you log into the game, the system checks your corp, your alliance, and what star charts you have. Then when you log in the game knows what you can warp to at 0km... (don't know if this is even possible) And no, these warp disruption nets would not be able to be setup fast... If you're chasing someone, you need to have friends ahead with sufficient skills & whatnot to setup a proper "road block", etc... Well making(setting them up, not copying) bookmarks was a "profession". And it even required some skills(RL skills) to do so. If you got any ideas how to make it an exciting profession i'd be up for it. Well not personally. But i guess it would just be another tedious thing as exciting as mining ice in jita. Well due to suicide attacks in highsec prolly even less exciting. Maybe as a compromise make NPC sell starcharts on market in empire. Make them available via agent missions in NPC .0 space(stain, fountain......) And add a "new" profession by allowing players to make charts of player owned .0 space. In any event, do we even know that BM's are the root cause to the lag? When I first got to 0.0, I used to be in 100 vs. 100 (or more) fleet battles... Even this does not seem possible anymore... Is this because of simply more players, or more BM's? What's the root cause(s) of the lag? And I will not accept "lag is part of every MMO, deal with it" No, I won't deal with it. And if EVE is to have 200k players someday, they won't "deal" with it either, as there will be no more EVE... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:59:00 - [56] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal Yeah, but the whole point is that of exploration, and another profession... Point is, if BM's are the major lag contributor in fleet battles, they need go! I had zero BM's and thought that was great, until I had to travel anywhere, go on an op and then have to log out for dinner and have no BM's to get home, etc... I envision, system, constellation, region star charts being compiled by explorer's who get a nice bit of profit for their craft... (once he gets a chart he can only copy it a few times) When you log into the game, the system checks your corp, your alliance, and what star charts you have. Then when you log in the game knows what you can warp to at 0km... (don't know if this is even possible) And no, these warp disruption nets would not be able to be setup fast... If you're chasing someone, you need to have friends ahead with sufficient skills & whatnot to setup a proper "road block", etc... Well making(setting them up, not copying) bookmarks was a "profession". And it even required some skills(RL skills) to do so. If you got any ideas how to make it an exciting profession i'd be up for it. Well not personally. But i guess it would just be another tedious thing as exciting as mining ice in jita. Well due to suicide attacks in highsec prolly even less exciting. Maybe as a compromise make NPC sell starcharts on market in empire. Make them available via agent missions in NPC .0 space(stain, fountain......) And add a "new" profession by allowing players to make charts of player owned .0 space. In any event, do we even know that BM's are the root cause to the lag? When I first got to 0.0, I used to be in 100 vs. 100 (or more) fleet battles... Even this does not seem possible anymore... Is this because of simply more players, or more BM's? What's the root cause(s) of the lag? And I will not accept "lag is part of every MMO, deal with it" No, I won't deal with it. And if EVE is to have 200k players someday, they won't "deal" with it either, as there will be no more EVE... Replied to wrong post/thread?!? Well nobody knows but CCP say they are causing alot of lag. Guess we simply have to trust em. It makes sense after all. Ages ago there were alot less players so with same bms/player it would have been alot less bms allready. And i'm pretty sure the average player had alot of less bms back then as well. Lots even did not happen to have any at all or even didn't know what instas are at all. I personally would really be up to try removing all bms and the possibility to create them for a week. Gameplay would be alot different of course(very slow moving BS gangs....) but a change every now and then is allways nice. And it would be just for one week so every carebear who really can't feel safe without bms can stay in highsec for that time. At least after that week we would be wiser. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 16:02:00 - [57] Quote: Replied to wrong post/thread?!? No, I really want to know if the lag is due mainly to BM's, or if there are so many other contributing factors to the lag that removing BM's isn't the cure-all we all think it is... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 16:24:00 - [58] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Replied to wrong post/thread?!? No, I really want to know if the lag is due mainly to BM's, or if there are so many other contributing factors to the lag that removing BM's isn't the cure-all we all think it is... Well CCP says so. Our options are to either trust them. Or to ask them to test it for a week. On Tranquility. My opinion is test it. Should be fun as well to have to adapt to completely different kind of gate camping/pvp for a week. And remind alot of the old farts of the good old times when 99% of eve was flying without instas. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 16:48:00 - [59] Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Replied to wrong post/thread?!? No, I really want to know if the lag is due mainly to BM's, or if there are so many other contributing factors to the lag that removing BM's isn't the cure-all we all think it is... Well CCP says so. Our options are to either trust them. Or to ask them to test it for a week. On Tranquility. My opinion is test it. Should be fun as well to have to adapt to completely different kind of gate camping/pvp for a week. And remind alot of the old farts of the good old times when 99% of eve was flying without instas. I think to get a good test you'd want to do it for a month or so... A week might not allow alliances to adjust and engage in fleet battles... (only gives one weekend) ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Caedicus	Posted - 2006.08.28 17:11:00 - [60] Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Replied to wrong post/thread?!? No, I really want to know if the lag is due mainly to BM's, or if there are so many other contributing factors to the lag that removing BM's isn't the cure-all we all think it is... Well CCP says so. Our options are to either trust them. Or to ask them to test it for a week. On Tranquility. My opinion is test it. Should be fun as well to have to adapt to completely different kind of gate camping/pvp for a week. And remind alot of the old farts of the good old times when 99% of eve was flying without instas. I'm curious about this comment. I remember reading a dev blog mentioning that the over abundance of BM's MIGHT be causing some unnecessary server load. This definately means something TOTALLY DIFFERENT than BM's being the root cause of all lag. Not even close! Now my question is, did I miss something that CCP said? If CCP is saying that BM's are the main cause of lag, can I get a link to that statement, please? And please don't link me to the dev blog I am refering to above, thanks. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Ghandi
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 17:25:00 - [61] Edited by: End Yourself on 28/08/2006 17:26:08 Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Replied to wrong post/thread?!? No, I really want to know if the lag is due mainly to BM's, or if there are so many other contributing factors to the lag that removing BM's isn't the cure-all we all think it is... Well CCP says so. Our options are to either trust them. Or to ask them to test it for a week. On Tranquility. My opinion is test it. Should be fun as well to have to adapt to completely different kind of gate camping/pvp for a week. And remind alot of the old farts of the good old times when 99% of eve was flying without instas. I think to get a good test you'd want to do it for a month or so... A week might not allow alliances to adjust and engage in fleet battles... (only gives one weekend) err i did not mean test what consequences an eve without instas would have regarding pvp. What i meant was test how the server load changes when instas are no more. See if lag is still as bad as before.... One week should be enough for that i think. Hell could even add a warp to 0km option for a week if that is what is needed to test load properly. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 17:30:00 - [62] Originally by: End Yourself Edited by: End Yourself on 28/08/2006 17:26:08 Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Replied to wrong post/thread?!? No, I really want to know if the lag is due mainly to BM's, or if there are so many other contributing factors to the lag that removing BM's isn't the cure-all we all think it is... Well CCP says so. Our options are to either trust them. Or to ask them to test it for a week. On Tranquility. My opinion is test it. Should be fun as well to have to adapt to completely different kind of gate camping/pvp for a week. And remind alot of the old farts of the good old times when 99% of eve was flying without instas. I think to get a good test you'd want to do it for a month or so... A week might not allow alliances to adjust and engage in fleet battles... (only gives one weekend) err i did not mean test what consequences an eve without instas would have regarding pvp. What i meant was test how the server load changes when instas are no more. See if lag is still as bad as before.... One week should be enough for that i think. Hell could even add a warp to 0km option for a week if that is what is needed to test load properly. Well, if one Sunday is a enough to test that, fine I guess... I assume if that were implemented, you'd see a lot less players online during that week, and less corp/alliance fleet movement... So might not be a fair comparison to the status quo... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 17:36:00 - [63] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: End Yourself What i meant was test how the server load changes when instas are no more. See if lag is still as bad as before.... One week should be enough for that i think. Hell could even add a warp to 0km option for a week if that is what is needed to test load properly. Well, if one Sunday is a enough to test that, fine I guess... I assume if that were implemented, you'd see a lot less players online during that week, and less corp/alliance fleet movement... So might not be a fair comparison to the status quo... You read the part about the 0km warp option? --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 17:39:00 - [64] Edited by: Bhaal on 28/08/2006 17:40:20 Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: End Yourself What i meant was test how the server load changes when instas are no more. See if lag is still as bad as before.... One week should be enough for that i think. Hell could even add a warp to 0km option for a week if that is what is needed to test load properly. Well, if one Sunday is a enough to test that, fine I guess... I assume if that were implemented, you'd see a lot less players online during that week, and less corp/alliance fleet movement... So might not be a fair comparison to the status quo... You read the part about the 0km warp option? Yeah, I guess that's possible... I know the 0km warp option was on SISI at one point... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.08.28 17:55:00 - [65] I have noticed it seeming laggier since this patch as well. For example, we engaged a mid-sized Goonswarm group a couple days ago in an otherwise empty system. Total in local was between 40-50 during the fight. Our group won and I didn't die, so I have no motivation to use lag as an excuse. It lagged worse than a comparable fight has done for me in the past. I assume this was true for the goon guys as well. Yes, commands would eventually go through, but only with a large delay. My system is quite powerful, and equipped with a high end video card. I think any lag-balancing Dragon may have intended, has not worked well. If, as I am guessing, it is based on average system use over time, then it will be hugely ineffective for fleet battles. If this ordinary 0.0 system sees maybe half a dozen pilots per hour during most times, then it will have very little processing power assigned to it. Now throw a 50 man engagement into the middle of that, having only recently moved into the system, and its going to cough up a lung and die. The unfortunate truth though, is that such on-the-fly engagements are very common with gangs maneuevering for position. Tell you what CCP, give us a fresh shard. I promise I'll pay for two new chars on the new server. Just run skill training there at 150% and it will be pure goodness. Pretty please?
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.28 18:01:00 - [66] Originally by: Bhaal Yeah, I guess that's possible... I know the 0km warp option was on SISI at one point... The 0km warp option on SISI was actually more accurately the randint(1500,25000) warp option. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.28 18:03:00 - [67] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Bhaal Yeah, I guess that's possible... I know the 0km warp option was on SISI at one point... The 0km warp option on SISI was actually more accurately the randint(1500,25000) warp option. Yes I know, it was like a chance based thing... Which sucks IMO... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Valtaer Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.28 18:45:00 - [68] Thanks to all that posted as a response.... Yes, even End Yourself... if you can get through the idiocy in the beginning of the thread he actually has good points in there... Hey it wouldn't be an MMO if there wasn't at least one guy trying to exercise his pseudo-eve-intellectual "superiority" over others. Thanks for setting us all straight EY. Also, sorry for upsetting you by "threatening" to quit eve. In all seriousness though thank you for posting. I guess D2 had an issue recently too, I wonder if any Goon guys are reading and could respond. Sadly I couldn't get to that video that Beagle posted since I was on a mobile connection earlier and now that I am home I can't pull it up for some reason... bah! I'd like to see myself getting rolled As for some of our guys having tractor beams on their ravens... I didn't have time to swap ships so maybe they didn't either or maybe like EY said it's just a case of really bad setups. As this post has degraded (or the opposite maybe?) into a convo about BMs... Only problem I have with no BM's is... Have you ever slow boated it 30 jumps?? I know you all have. Forget gate camps and the like... how about the TIME?? Anyway I'll delete mine if you delete yours :) Thanks again to Beagle for the posts.. I'm signing off of this thread I think.
ElCoCo Gallente KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.08.28 19:54:00 - [69] With every major patch and yarrdware changes we get our hopes up for as much as possible lag-free large-ish battles. As time passes by, and especialy with the latest load balancing by system popularity thingamajig, things just get worse. Wonder when ppl's patience will run out.
Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.28 20:13:00 - [70] I remember a LONG time ago, a large engagement in particular taking place in HLW in Curse. The fighters were the CA, and I believe the SA. There were about 100 ships in system ON EACH SIDE. I myself was fairly new to the game, but was flying a cruise fitted Tristan at the time. My system specs at the time were: Athlon XP 2200+ 256MB RAM GeForce 2 Ultra video card (64MB of vid ram...) 256kbps DSL (I know, it sucked, thank god for progress...) Also, this was just post-castor deployment and the only T2 ships in existance were Interceptors. HOWEVER...I had zero lag, visually or communications wise. We engaged the enemy at gates multiple times and had some module activation lag, but by that I mean like an extra half a second or so compared to the lag when ratting solo. So my question the CCP is: What did you do to EVE since then that so badly borked fleet battles in 0.0 systems? I know that due to limitations in stackless python, you can't do distributed threading, so you're limited to one node per star system ratio maximum. You've never been able to bring more than one node to support a single system, so I know that it's not the hardware..especially since you've upgraded all the blades to some really sweet yardware last year. The problem is, such an engagment as I just described is now either impossible or lag hell, when the opposite should be very much the reality given the upgrades you've made since that time. The ONLY thing I can think of short of software, is your connection proxies. Are they being shared over high and low traffic systems in such a way that say..Ourslaert is lagging out systems like HLW to hell and back? Maybe you need to decrease the ratio of proxies to blades? Get some more connection throughput on that leg of the connection? If you're using blade centers, I could see this happening easily in the name of load balancing...espcially since you can't reallocate nodes on the fly. IMO, going with Python as your main programming language is coming back to bite you in the butt now, despite the advantages.
dantes inferno Caldari Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.08.28 20:34:00 - [71] tbh fleet combat gets more and more laggy. i just hope it will improve _____
mechtech	Posted - 2006.08.28 21:17:00 - [72] we need dynamic load balancing, after kali, all the capable programmers should do nothing but get this done. I think we'd all be much happier with lag gone than another content patch.
Capt Harlock Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.28 22:27:00 - [73] Oh man i have lost count of the times i've got 1 fps in a fleet battle I just don't see the point anymore tbh

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