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Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.29 05:24:00 - [31] Originally by: Verite Rendition m8, sharding the world would most certainly decrease the lag. Sure, various solar-ssytems are on their own nodes, but there are serveral computing systems that can't be dividied up, such as the markets(to an extent), and the big one is the item database. Splitting the server in to two, so that the master DB only has to keep track of half as much crap is a sure-fire way to lessen the load. Do I have to explain why you're wrong or can I just write WRONG in capital letters as a reply to this? Markets are split regionally. The item database can be split by region, constellation, solar system, station... whatever they want. I don't know how they actually do split it but to say it's not possible is just silly. Splitting the server in two would not decrease load significantly because they'd have the same number of players playing on the same number of server computers. Assuming all processes Eve's servers undergo are of order N, which they bloody well should be if their programmers know their stuff, there's no difference in having one set of 100% of the people on 100% of the server and having two sets of 50% of the people on 50% of the server. If you mean split the server in two by buying a second set of server hardware, they could use the money to upgrade the current cluster and achieve the same effect. The only thing sharding will do is lower the numbers in core systems that currently need their own nodes to themselves, thereby lowering the quality of the hardware required to run the core systems. Oh, and destroy the entire game. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.08.29 05:25:00 - [32] Everytime someone kills Floozie and send me the killmail/post it on kb they get 20 mill. Recruitment
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.29 05:43:00 - [33] Edited by: Verite Rendition on 29/08/2006 05:45:20 Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Verite Rendition m8, sharding the world would most certainly decrease the lag. Sure, various solar-ssytems are on their own nodes, but there are serveral computing systems that can't be dividied up, such as the markets(to an extent), and the big one is the item database. Splitting the server in to two, so that the master DB only has to keep track of half as much crap is a sure-fire way to lessen the load. Do I have to explain why you're wrong or can I just write WRONG in capital letters as a reply to this? Markets are split regionally. The item database can be split by region, constellation, solar system, station... whatever they want. I don't know how they actually do split it but to say it's not possible is just silly. Splitting the server in two would not decrease load significantly because they'd have the same number of players playing on the same number of server computers. Assuming all processes Eve's servers undergo are of order N, which they bloody well should be if their programmers know their stuff, there's no difference in having one set of 100% of the people on 100% of the server and having two sets of 50% of the people on 50% of the server. If you mean split the server in two by buying a second set of server hardware, they could use the money to upgrade the current cluster and achieve the same effect. The only thing sharding will do is lower the numbers in core systems that currently need their own nodes to themselves, thereby lowering the quality of the hardware required to run the core systems. Oh, and destroy the entire game. With all due respect, I honestly believe that you're the one that's wrong. Certainly markets can be split by region(and indeed they are right now), but a region is huge. Think of the Forge market, there's all the items entered in Jita, and then everything else, but it all needs to be on one server so that the entire region's market contents are availible at once. CCP has already implemented most of your ideas. Systems get their own nodes, Jita's already on its own node and the Forge market is on its own system too(seeing as how it crashed the other day...). The stuff that can be split more or less has been split, and the rest is all marginal stuff like chat that takes minimal resources in the first place. Tonight's problem for example was the master DB, which you assert can be split but I say can not in any reasonable manner. You need to access your bookmarks from anywhere in space, you need to be able to see your items from anywhere in space, you need to be able to see orders and transactions from anywhere in space. Unless you propose massively changing the scope of EVE so that it's far more regional, the master DB is required to handle all of that, and there's no practical way to split it, but it's the thing that's getting killed right now due to the massive amount of transactions and items it needs to keep track of. Some new hardware would be required(mainly for a second master DB), so when I say sharding, it wouldn't be a magical thing with the same amount of hardware, but it wouldn't be too far from that. The reduction in the load on a single master DB would be immense, and likely to solve the problems that the master DB has had lately. Why do you think the Chinese can fit 38k people on a server when we struggle with 28k? Because their master DB isn't yet at a point where it's overloaded with 3 years of crap. Edit: Oh, and don't forget diminishing returns either for scaling. You can only make a cluster so big before adding hardware becomes increasingly less effective ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.29 05:49:00 - [34] Shards would make many people, including myself, quit. As soon as you shard, anything you do is meaningless. The fact that we all share in the same politics, the same history, etc, is what makes eve special Events in eve affect everyone, and I wouldn't change it for a bit less lag (Wouldnt have less lag, WoW iand other MMOs are still laggier.
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.29 05:51:00 - [35] Simply NO! If I wanted to play a game with 8000 different servers I'd probably go play WoW. The fact that you can actualy talk about EvE history, the fact that you can become as famous as Tank CEO did by just playing the game rather than spamming the forums with google videos proves just how important the single shard is to EVE. Shad the eve server I can tell you that by the time they're done sharding it you wont need a shard at all. ----
Kalixa Hihro	Posted - 2006.08.29 06:25:00 - [36] Originally by: Auraurious No. The single server universe is what makes eve special! /signed Originally by: Auraurious Besides, one server drop isn't enough reason to shard the server anyway. You had me nodding til I read this. Hey, despite the constant lag, eve does work. It's a turn based rpg. The fact that it's as fluid as it is, well it's a miracle of sorts. The lag does make fleet battles all but impossible, umm. Well the single server universe is what makes eve special in't it? Only thing is, when you warp into an enemy fleet, with equal forces, approximately, you start to come out of warp and stop, with no other ships around you, sit there for like 2 minutes, then you are in a station, you haven't really gotten to play. Or get near the battle turn off you mwd and turn to attack, and your ship doesn't respond until you are 180km from where you wanted to slow down and make your attack approach. Dunno but I think it's time for a server split. 40k users should be the maximum number of accounts on a server. At least put all the noob accounts on their own server. Once they start paying, migrate the characters. -Kal /----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ My opinion in no way represents that of my corp or anyone I am associated with, and is probably entirely wrong.
Colonel Ripper The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.29 06:29:00 - [37] I had a big philosophical answer here, but it boils down to no way.
Gift Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.08.29 06:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Floozie Destroy the game You offend me greatly.
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.29 06:47:00 - [39] Edited by: Nyphur on 29/08/2006 06:54:10 Originally by: Verite Rendition CCP has already implemented most of your ideas. They aren't my ideas, I was telling you what CCP has implemented. But you're compeltely right. There are problems with scalability of networks, databases, communications technology etc. Ten small, independant servers take less resources to run and can handle more complex processing than one large network of ten of the same servers. But it's not a huge deal more and with the current rate of increase in eve's concurrent player limit, technology progresses far ahead of what is required to maintain an unsharded world. The software is the issue here - the database is a mess apparantly. I do believe that the item database can be split up quite easilly with some well thought out relational links. For example, you may need to access your bookmarks from anywhere, but you don't need to access them from anotehr character, and indeed you can't. So they can be linked directly to your character and you have a table for bookmarks with a link table to characters. This can be put on its own server if needed and I believe I remember a dev once saying something about the "bookmarks server" so they might already be doing that. In any case, a fully normalised database can be distributed efficiently across a network and the relevant data needs only be held on the servers that need it. For example, items hangers in Jita can only be accessed from Jita. They can be stored on the Jita node without disrupting normal operation. Having a single master database is just asking for trouble. EDIT: As for searching your assets, the asset window refreshes every five minutes - that indicates to me that it doesn't actually access the database for a search query every time but keeps a five minute cache locally to help easy the load searches cause. But there's nothing stopping you from sending a request to the jita server asking to perform a lookup query on your items rather than asking it from the master DB. Heck, there shouldn't even BE a master DB. But I assure you that if the server were sharded and split in two, the load would decrease overall significantly - because people would quit in droves. And thanks for not being as much of a **** to me as I was to you :). Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Floozie	Posted - 2006.08.29 06:56:00 - [40] Originally by: Gift Originally by: Floozie Destroy the game You offend me greatly. in what part of my post did I ever say that? come to think of it when did I actually say, make shards? I was making a guesstimate that perhaps the current database or server or god knows what perhaps cant handle the current load? honestly you people... you wonder why people never post... its because when they do, you either take whats being said out of context and flame them.. or; more specifically in the case of this person make stuff up.. no more posting for me..
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.29 07:08:00 - [41] Originally by: Floozie honestly you people... you wonder why people never post... its because when they do, you either take whats being said out of context and flame them.. or; more specifically in the case of this person make stuff up.. no more posting for me.. Don't take it personally, people are often very harsh on the forums, just as they are in-game. It's a good thing, I think. But you just happen to have hit a bit of a sensitive spot with the eve community. Most people aren't willing to discuss the possibility of sharding or the merits and demrits of it. I'm afraid that for most people, all you'll get is an instinctive fear response. They don't want their game ruined like that and I agree with them. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2006.08.29 07:12:00 - [42] Originally by: hendo001 ccp just need to expand the servers again, which I'm sure they will do soon and add more sql drives so the databases wont fill up. No can do sorry. To busy spending cash on nodes for the chinese server. We are just the test server now. Originally by: Avon Originally by: Dark Shikari What single item is larger than a jetcan? My ego?
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2006.08.29 07:13:00 - [43] Originally by: Floozie I was making a guesstimate that perhaps the current database or server or god knows what perhaps cant handle the current load? Realy? The current 'something' cant handle the load? OMG I think youre right! Originally by: Avon Originally by: Dark Shikari What single item is larger than a jetcan? My ego?
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.08.29 07:14:00 - [44] Originally by: Floozie Originally by: Cattraknoff The entire code for the game was updated, any patch is bumpy, this one you should've expected 10x worse than normal. Every patch a noob asks this, the answer is NO, CCP will fix it as they always have. bloodlines patch wasnt this bumpy , servers seemed fine back then becouse they did rewrite half the game in a new way.... unicode ftw
Gift Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.08.29 07:24:00 - [45] Originally by: Floozie Originally by: Gift Originally by: Floozie Destroy the game You offend me greatly. in what part of my post did I ever say that? come to think of it when did I actually say, make shards? I was making a guesstimate that perhaps the current database or server or god knows what perhaps cant handle the current load? honestly you people... you wonder why people never post... its because when they do, you either take whats being said out of context and flame them.. or; more specifically in the case of this person make stuff up.. no more posting for me.. I'm sorry if you think I was flamming you, it wasn't my intent, I was being honest. What I read from your post is that "I havent been playing long but CCP should make the most drastic change in the history of eve" and that offends me.
Kaomi Zorbaz	Posted - 2006.08.29 07:28:00 - [46] Edited by: Kaomi Zorbaz on 29/08/2006 07:33:40 Edited by: Kaomi Zorbaz on 29/08/2006 07:31:58 Edited by: Kaomi Zorbaz on 29/08/2006 07:30:06 Originally by: Verite Rendition CCP has already implemented most of your ideas. Systems get their own nodes, Jita's already on its own node and the Forge market is on its own system too(seeing as how it crashed the other day...). The stuff that can be split more or less has been split, and the rest is all marginal stuff like chat that takes minimal resources in the first place. Tonight's problem for example was the master DB, which you assert can be split but I say can not in any reasonable manner. You need to access your bookmarks from anywhere in space, you need to be able to see your items from anywhere in space, you need to be able to see orders and transactions from anywhere in space. Unless you propose massively changing the scope of EVE so that it's far more regional, the master DB is required to handle all of that, and there's no practical way to split it, but it's the thing that's getting killed right now due to the massive amount of transactions and items it needs to keep track of. Some new hardware would be required(mainly for a second master DB), so when I say sharding, it wouldn't be a magical thing with the same amount of hardware, but it wouldn't be too far from that. The reduction in the load on a single master DB would be immense, and likely to solve the problems that the master DB has had lately. Why do you think the Chinese can fit 38k people on a server when we struggle with 28k? Because their master DB isn't yet at a point where it's overloaded with 3 years of crap. I seriously doubt the load on the market DB's is a serious problem. The queries are very simple and chances are the region format already filters things down. A big DB like this should have major juntion points like regional markets on different spindles to ease with disk thrashing. I am willing to bet the majority of people having problems are not a result of quering the DB anyways but network latency from CCP to their machine. This wont be fixed with sticking people on a shard because all shards will share the same internet connection. The concept of sharding vs clustering is hard for people to imagine. But the point is, if done right, there is no advantage to sharding servers if your cluster is built correctly. What do you gain by sharding? Take for example a 100 server cluster with 20,000 people on it. That is 200 per server. What if you broke up the cluster into 100 shards? You still have 200 per server. What do you gain? Nothing in terms of density per server. You may try to make a claim the backend database will be faster by only having to service 200 vs 20000 but chances are it will still be servicing all 20000 people as the shards will use a SAN to house all their databses. An advantage a cluster will have over a shard system as I described above is the ability to delegate more than a single server to a hot spot. So with a 100 shard setup and a hardwired 200 per server, you could end up with parts of the game world with multiple servers clustered that effectively drops the density down to under 200 per server and actually lightens the load. Quote: Edit: Oh, and don't forget diminishing returns either for scaling. You can only make a cluster so big before adding hardware becomes increasingly less effective Same for sharding, except it is worse because instead of it being an automated system of distribution, you are relying on players to move to the new shards and do your scaling for you. Edit: btw I think the lag in this game is better than any of the "sharded" games I have played in the past like daoc, swg, or WoW.
fuze Gallente Chosen Path	Posted - 2006.08.29 07:39:00 - [47] Eve-cn anyone? Sharding might be silver bullit but on the other side I don't like being nerfed because CCP wants more customers. Hopefully they use their knowhow to develop new kind of realms. They could be a spin-off like another wormhole opening up a new world where you can go to in a one-way trip. It could require 50M SP and you basicly get a fresh start all over again. Or even something like a Viking RPG.
Kanuo Ashkeron Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.29 07:41:00 - [48] The problem EVE has at the moment isn¦t the overall load, but the peak loads in single systems (e.g. massive fleet battles). And this problem can¦t be solved by sharding the EVE universe. Kanuo P.S.: NO!
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.29 07:45:00 - [49] Originally by: fuze Eve-cn anyone? Sharding might be silver bullit but on the other side I don't like being nerfed because CCP wants more customers. Hopefully they use their knowhow to develop new kind of realms. They could be a spin-off like another wormhole opening up a new world where you can go to in a one-way trip. It could require 50M SP and you basicly get a fresh start all over again. Or even something like a Viking RPG. My take on this is that if they start a new server, they will have to make a completely new galaxy and have a storyline thing that explains how the people there got there from the current eve universe. Otehrwise, they won't be the same races, won't have the same technology etc. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.08.29 08:00:00 - [50] Originally by: Floozie I realize CCP's insistance on having an 'unsharded universe' but seriously with the lag, the continuous server drop-outs isnt it time for separate shards to be implemented? I'm totally with you on that one. As long as you can switch between shards to play with friends, who cares if I play with 60.000 people at the same time a year from now, or with 30.000 in one shard? Its too crowded in Eve anyway except for parts of 0.0, which is a moot point for the average player because the systems arround the few public 0.0 stations are crowded nevertheless. Now off to part II: Convincing CCPs Marketing Dept. --
fuze Gallente Chosen Path	Posted - 2006.08.29 08:20:00 - [51] Use search and replace on the Eve lore and market is as being totally new? Hopefully it would be done better. But CCP didn't start eve-cn for nothing. They needed to make more money since they are a company afterall. And supposedly their financial situation wasn't optimal at the time. And with the unicode client they could have a shard for e.g. every continent. CCP is the only one on this planet that knows how to build a MMORPG that can handle 30k+ players. And I don't think you should be that naive that CCP doesn't grasp the opportunity to make more money anyway. Eve-cn, GTC, CCG, german client. Japanese and Korean markets are huge as well so you can expect CCP will might bring out clients for them as well or even shard it.
robacz Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.29 08:41:00 - [52] Originally by: Floozie I realize CCP's insistance on having an 'unsharded universe' but seriously with the lag, the continuous server drop-outs isnt it time for separate shards to be implemented? obviously the game is just going to get busier and busier, when I first started playing, not really all that long ago, a huge night was 24k players at once, now its approaching 30k and the server seems rather unstable to put it midly.. suposedly the new hardware was suposed to alleviate lag and make the servers more stable, but seriously i cant ever remember it being this bad.. really all its doing is giving a rather bad impression to the new players that subscribe, and whilst I appreciate ccp's efforts, perhaps its time to realize that 1 unsharded universe is perhaps unrealistic with this amount of players, or another 50k players etc etc? comments? NO. By the way, the only system where I notice some lag is Jita. Even Oursulaert is OK and I always play in the peak hours. I dont say there is no lag, it just makes me wonder why I dont get any and others do. (not that I want it lol) ___________ Buying/Selling: Implants, Cargo Expanders and more
Dekiri Useless Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.29 08:56:00 - [53] Why do people always come here and suggest things like sharding or "pvp arenas" or stuff like that. You have that stuff in other games go play them! Sharding if just for the lag would not accomplish much, except that many people would probably quit eve. It would be such a massive gameplay change that i don't believe it would be any good to anyone. This would be like the SWG remodelling... oh my god... sony should really write articles about how to ruin a game its community and their own wallet all in once. -------------- My dad can beat up your dad! Support lowsec!
SamtheDog	Posted - 2006.08.29 09:00:00 - [54] Not really no...what you dont' realize is that it's the single shard that makes eve what it is...what you're looking for I suspect is a way to get your speed..but exclude a very large amount of the significant player base... & no..it won't prevent me from popping your hauler in low-sec space again with my carrier Sam

Ivan Kirilenkov Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.08.29 09:07:00 - [55] Thread cleaned, please stay on topic. And please stop trolling about the chinese servers stealing resources as the relation between the China-server and Tranquility has been explained several times by Devs. eve-crc.net \| forum rules \|[email protected]Sofistication

James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.29 09:17:00 - [56] Valar said new hardware is coming up. New systems will get introduced with Kali, which will make EVE less crowded and hopefully be supported by even more hardware. Once the bugs in Dragon gets ironed out, the patch is supposed to give better load balancing, hopefully helping to mitigate the problems of ASCN fleets crashing nodes while moving around. Jump portal generators will also probably lead to less problems like this because a fleet will be able to travel across the map in a single jump. It seems rather obvious to me that CCP are working to mitigate these issues. But ofc things take time. -----
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.29 09:40:00 - [57] The thing that makes EVE addictive is that actions have impacts. With a sharded universe what happens on one server does not happen on the other - that is a logical impossibility. The simple matter of fact is that you can run a sharded game just fine with a good number of players and fans, however if you take a closer look on games which does this, such as everyone's favourite WoW, you'll find that a large part of the attraction is the different grinds to get better or more flashier items. To some extent these games also rely on the intuitive social networks humans establish when they cooperate. If you examine the attraction in EVE, you'll find that it is no longer dependant on grinds at all - you won't get any prettier and quite frankly no one cares whether you've got 40 or 50 million skillpoints in the long run - instead you have an accomplishment driven game. EVE is built around that you make an impact, that you are competative, and that you are cooperative. Removed are the grinds (unless you really want to). Here destroying the assets of your enemy is more important than getting flashier items for yourself. Assets include both dynamic and personal items such as ships and modules, as well as static starbases and conquerable stations. If EVE is sharded, the competative nature of EVE will be diminished. Static contents will no longer be viable since they cannot exist on several shards at once (I will not go into detail on this one, suffice to say it's not practically possible, if theoretically possible). Static contents include, but is not limited to: starbases, conquerable stations, and outposts. Certain player-driven content will also be forcibly impossible to maintain: solar system claims, competative markets, and by eventually the alliances will collapse since there are no reason for them. As for EVE China... well, CCP isn't running EVE China. CCP is just making the code for it. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Reathyr	Posted - 2006.08.29 09:58:00 - [58] Well the simple answer to that is...NO Why? The EVE universe is huge, meaning with the current ammount of players, you there's a good chance there's someone behind the next gate, and you don't know if he's good or bad. Devide that up in to servers of max 3 to 4k people per server, and there's a good chance many Empire systems will even be empty, not to mention that 0.0 will be near empty. System claims will a huge bit of galaxy by a single powerfull alliance, and a lot of small mini-kingdoms by the smaller alliances. It just all takes away from the living breathing galaxy that is EVE
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.29 10:00:00 - [59] In my opinion, sharding is a really really bad idea. EVE has a very impressive dynamic history, politics and relationships. There are 'names' who are know, because of the things they have done. Built alliances, space stations, scams, evilest pirates, or top notch PvP organisations. These are things that make EVE really wonderful. The fact that there's _player_ driven history. I'm proud of my part in the formation of ISS, and the 'ISS Outpost projects'. The value of having done that would be so much less if it wasn't "The ISS", but "ISS # 3345 on shard #207".
Coasterbrian Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.29 10:06:00 - [60] It's amazing how quickly people forget about previous patches. Yeah, Dragon has been worse than Bloodlines (a tiny patch), but Cold War was just as bad, and Exodus and ESPECIALLY RMR (with its memory leaks causing crashes more like 2 or 3 times a day) were both far worse. Oh, and sharding = bad. Sharding = WoW in space. Sharding = everyone but the mission grinders will quit. ---------- I say what I mean, but I don't always mean what I say.

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