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Shield Tanking vs. Armor Tanking

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Areconus	Posted - 2006.08.30 00:23:00 - [1] Edited by: Areconus on 30/08/2006 00:24:38 After some simple math, these are some of the results i have produced: **********WITHOUT SKILLS******************** XL C5L-------400cap---------4 secs-------------480 XL 1-----------400cap---------5 secs-------------400 XL2------------400cap--------5 secs--------------600 LAR-1----------400cap--------15 secs-----------600 LAR-2----------400 cap--------15 secs----------800 LAR æprieveÆù400cap--------15 secs-----------960 XL1- 80cap/s 80dps1cap/dps XL-C100cap/s120dps.83cap/dps XL280cap/s 120dps.66cap/dps LAR130cap/s 40dps.75cap/dps LAR230cap/s 53dps.56cap/dps Prieve30 cap/s64dps.47cap/dps REP SYS. -5% durationlvl 4 SHD COMP. -2%cap needlvl 4 ****************WITH SKILLS************** XL C5L-------368cap---------4 secs-------------480 XL 1-----------368cap---------5 secs-------------400 XL2------------368cap--------5 secs--------------600 LAR-1----------400cap--------12 secs-----------600 LAR-2----------400 cap--------12 secs----------800 LAR æprieveÆù400cap--------12 secs-----------960 XL1- 73.6cap/s80dps.92cap/dps XL-C92cap/s 120dps.766cap/dps XL273.6cap/s120dps.61cap/dps LAR133.33cap/s40dps.8333cap/dps LAR233.33cap/s53dps.62cap/dps Prieve33.33 cap/s64dps.52cap/dps *************WITH SKILLS,WITH 1 BOOST AMP***** XL C5L-------368cap---------4 secs-------------624 XL 1-----------368cap---------5 secs-------------520 XL2------------368cap--------5 secs--------------780 XL1-73.6cap/s104dps.7cap/dps XL-C92cap/s 156dps .58cap/dps XL-273.6cap/s156dps.47cap/dps XL1(ns, nb)=1cap/dps XL1(ws,nb)=.92cap/dps XLC(ns,nb)=.83cap/dps LAR1(ws)=.83cap/dps XLC(ws,nb)=.766cap/dps LAR1(ns)=.75cap/dps XL1(ws,wb)=.7cap/dps XL2(ns,nb)=.66cap/dps LAR2(ws)=.62cap/dps XL2(ws,nb)=.61cap/dps XLC(ws,wb)=.58cap/dps LAR2(ns)=.56cap/dps Prieve(ws)=.52cap/dps Prieve(ns)=.47cap/dps XL2(ws,wb)=.47cap/dps Sooooo, i am looking to shield tank anyways, but why do the armor reps get a worse cap/dps as the skills increase? Also, are there any skills i am leaving out that may affect my math? ws=with skills ns=no skills wb=with boost amp nb=no boost amp
Iota Belisarius Procurare Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.08.30 00:32:00 - [2] Edited by: Iota Belisarius on 30/08/2006 00:35:04 Anytime you find any mathematical inconsistency in EVE, it's because EVE math is long and complicated and you did it wrong. Fact. And it's obvious you did since for some reason you made repair system skill reduce the amount of armor repaired instead of what it actually does, reduce the time it takes for it to reactivate. How you did that I'll never know. ---------------------
Thunderbird Anthares The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.30 00:43:00 - [3] Edited by: Thunderbird Anthares on 30/08/2006 00:43:55 its balanced enough i think,so instead pick the style of gameplay that you like shield tanks take med slots,that means you have to choose between tank,propulsion,and EW, but it lets you to install more damage mods and CPU/PG modifications armor tanks take lows,so you can always fit some propulsion/EW allthrough amarr/gallente have lower amount of med slots,you can also slap some tracking mods there that help alot on snipers well,overall,i think it comes out almost the same,except shields generally have 0% EM resist and lowest on armor is 10% explosive who knows? i just fly whatever i think is fun atm and best for the one thing i want it for each ship has advantages and disadvantage,so you cant really ask "whats better" same goes for each style of play and/or tank type Btw,Iota,what sensor type does Jesus use? I bet he`d pwn u anyway ------------------------------------------------ When you get to the end of your journey,everything that really matters is the journey itself.
Areconus	Posted - 2006.08.30 00:53:00 - [4] Edited by: Areconus on 30/08/2006 00:55:30 Edited by: Areconus on 30/08/2006 00:54:01 Originally by: Iota Belisarius Edited by: Iota Belisarius on 30/08/2006 00:35:04 Anytime you find any mathematical inconsistency in EVE, it's because EVE math is long and complicated and you did it wrong. Fact. And it's obvious you did since for some reason you made repair system skill reduce the amount of armor repaired instead of what it actually does, reduce the time it takes for it to reactivate. How you did that I'll never know. Excuse me, but point out where you see my damage repped changing? exactly, nowhere...the list goes... Actually, you must have read my post wrong. If you look at the differences between w/o skills and with skills, you will see: For example,: if LAR1 repped 600dmg every 15 seconds....then the skill reduces reactivation to 12 seconds, that means you ARE repping damage faster, but you are still using the same amount of cap, just in shorter cycles.. Also, my skills input were to lvl 4
Areconus	Posted - 2006.08.30 01:17:00 - [5] Uhh can some1 answer meh questions plz? I prefer an intelligent poster...
DrLogan New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.08.30 01:49:00 - [6] Armor tanks are VERY sustainable when compared to shield tanks. Shield tanks can take more dps, but for a very short period. And shield tanking modules use up mid slots, which are very useful...
Pestillence Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.30 01:53:00 - [7] Shields recharge naturally too. Did you take that into account in your sums?
Areconus	Posted - 2006.08.30 01:55:00 - [8] Yep but without shield rechargers, relays, or even flux coils....the recharge is very very minimal..something like a max of 5per sec with max skills
DrLogan New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.08.30 01:55:00 - [9] And another thing to consider, armor hp mods are MUCH better when compared to mods for your shield that increase your hp.
Areconus	Posted - 2006.08.30 01:56:00 - [10] so whats the deal? why did they screw over shield tankers?
Andreask14 Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.30 02:04:00 - [11] Shield tanking is not inferior to armor tanking. The fact that it uses more cap is balanced by the fact that all ships that are meant to use shield tanking have weapons which DONT use any cap, missiles and projectiles.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.08.30 02:16:00 - [12] Wow. Shield tanking is better than an armor tank in terms of both DPS tanked and speed. (Booster cycle is 4sec and the boost comes at the start of the cycle, armor cyce is 15 secs and boost comes at the end of the cycle) Armor tanking is more cap efficient but shield tankers can get crystal implants and they get boost amps. So how are shield tankers screwed? CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Sammiel Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.30 02:42:00 - [13] Edited by: Sammiel on 30/08/2006 02:42:52 Originally by: Areconus Uhh can some1 answer meh questions plz? I prefer an intelligent poster... Your figures are off. First off there is no dependance between the cycle time and the cap/damage. Your figures would be - ******************WITH SKILLS**************** XL C5L - 368cap - 4 secs - 480 damage = 92 c/s - 120 dps - .76 c/d XL1 - 368cap - 5 secs - 400 damage = 73.6 c/s - 80 dps - .92 c/d XL2 - 368cap - 5 secs - 600 damage = 73.6 c/s - 120 dps - .61 c/d LAR-1 - 400 cap - 12 secs - 600 damage = 33.3 c/s - 50 dps - .66 c/d LAR-2 - 400 cap - 12 secs - 800 damage = 33.3 c/s - 66.7 dps - .5 c/d LAR æprieveÆ ù 400cap - 12 secs - 960 damage = 33.3 c/s - 80 dps - .42 c/d So it looks like your figures for the LAR rates with skills are off. Looks like you used the 15s cycle DPS figures. Which are wrong. They need to take into account the increased rep time.
Areconus	Posted - 2006.08.30 03:12:00 - [14] Edited by: Areconus on 30/08/2006 03:15:09 Originally by: Sammiel Edited by: Sammiel on 30/08/2006 02:42:52 Originally by: Areconus Uhh can some1 answer meh questions plz? I prefer an intelligent poster... Your figures are off. First off there is no dependance between the cycle time and the cap/damage. Your figures would be - ******************WITH SKILLS**************** XL C5L - 368cap - 4 secs - 480 damage = 92 c/s - 120 dps - .76 c/d XL1 - 368cap - 5 secs - 400 damage = 73.6 c/s - 80 dps - .92 c/d XL2 - 368cap - 5 secs - 600 damage = 73.6 c/s - 120 dps - .61 c/d LAR-1 - 400 cap - 12 secs - 600 damage = 33.3 c/s - 50 dps - .66 c/d LAR-2 - 400 cap - 12 secs - 800 damage = 33.3 c/s - 66.7 dps - .5 c/d LAR æprieveÆ ù 400cap - 12 secs - 960 damage = 33.3 c/s - 80 dps - .42 c/d So it looks like your figures for the LAR rates with skills are off. Looks like you used the 15s cycle DPS figures. Which are wrong. They need to take into account the increased rep time. Yea i see it, i forgot to change the figures from the w/o section to the with section. ;) and my figures are wack....400cap/15 secs=30..wtf?
DrEiak Amarr IONSTAR Vox Imperium	Posted - 2006.08.30 04:59:00 - [15] That is confusing go here instead: Ballance and Roles
MrRookie Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.08.30 07:05:00 - [16] The XL Shield Booster is an oversized module which equals 1,5 Large Armor Repairers. You should be comparing either: a) 1x Large shield boosters VS 1x Large armor repairers b) 1x XL Shield boosters + 1x shieldboost amplifier VS 2x Large armor repairers This subject has been discussed a bazillion times, armor repairing is more cap efficient, shield boosting repairs faster. Shields have a litle regeneration and armor has some bether resistance. Both works ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
DrEiak Amarr IONSTAR Vox Imperium	Posted - 2006.08.30 07:08:00 - [17] Edited by: DrEiak on 30/08/2006 07:09:44 I compared L armor rep to L shield boost AND XL shield boost. Oh and by the way XL Shield boost plus SBA is over 2x what a L armor rep can crank out. The L shield booster is about 1.3x a L armor rep with a SBA. And in terms of efficency of the moduals shield boosters are about 150% to almost 300% more efficent in terms of repairing ability. Oh and wrong again, armor repair is NOT more cap efficent with an SBA :P Shield boosting = more fitting intense You want to argue lets argue numbers go to my forum post that i linked above.
MrRookie Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.08.30 07:48:00 - [18] Edited by: MrRookie on 30/08/2006 07:50:54 Originally by: DrEiak Edited by: DrEiak on 30/08/2006 07:09:44 I compared L armor rep to L shield boost AND XL shield boost. Oh and by the way XL Shield boost plus SBA is over 2x what a L armor rep can crank out. The L shield booster is about 1.3x a L armor rep with a SBA. And in terms of efficency of the moduals shield boosters are about 150% to almost 300% more efficent in terms of repairing ability. (WTF?) Oh and wrong again, armor repair is NOT more cap efficent with an SBA :P Shield boosting = more fitting intense You want to argue lets argue numbers go to my forum post that i linked above. Wrong again XL boster2 with amp repairs 156 dps using 73,6 cap/s - 2,12 HP/cap 2 Large Rep 2s repairs 133,33 dps using 66,66 cap/s - 2,12 HP/cap I don't know where you get the 150-300% more efficiency from, it should be more like 17% and as you can see above, the LAR 2s remains more cap eficient... And I'm not going to the thread of yours that you are spamming all over the forums about just to read Amarr bwaaahwaa-posts ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.30 08:26:00 - [19] For t2 gear, that is true, however if you add in recharge, the values are in favor of a shield tanker. Also the faction shield boosters are very cap efficent. But what do I care, having maxed out all armour tanking skills, I am finding shield tanks the way forward. :) --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.30 08:27:00 - [20] Edited by: Garia666 on 30/08/2006 08:27:49 have you ever seen the gisti small shield booster? compare that to the corpum small armor repairer
MrRookie Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.08.30 08:40:00 - [21] Originally by: Lord WarATron For t2 gear, that is true, however if you add in recharge, the values are in favor of a shield tanker. Also the faction shield boosters are very cap efficent. But what do I care, having maxed out all armour tanking skills, I am finding shield tanks the way forward. :) Add in the extra resistance on armour and it equals out. Originally by: Garia666 Edited by: Garia666 on 30/08/2006 08:27:49 have you ever seen the gisti small shield booster? compare that to the corpum small armor repairer For practical reasons I wouldn't compare these modules in an armour vs shield tanking thread. ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
Pottsey Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:05:00 - [22] Edited by: Pottsey on 30/08/2006 09:08:33 No one flys around without modules or skills so its pointless to compare shield v armour without skills or modules. You also have to take into account any bonusÆs on the ship. ôYep but without shield rechargers, relays, or even flux coils....the recharge is very very minimal..something like a max of 5per sec with max skillsö It can hit 20 or more if you fit something like PDS modules which lots of shield tankers use and 20HP/s on top of a shield booster can be a lot. ôAdd in the extra resistance on armour and it equals out.ö Shields can have better resistance due to the modules. Passive shield tanking guide, click here.
eLLioTT wave Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:35:00 - [23] Originally by: DrEiak That is confusing go here instead: Ballance and Roles Lol next you should advirtise on the eve billboards <<
MrRookie Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.08.30 10:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 30/08/2006 09:08:33 ôAdd in the extra resistance on armour and it equals out.ö Shields can have better resistance due to the modules. Indeed, I assume you are refering to Invulnerability field 2. They use cap, and have very high fitting requirements so I still concider the Energized adaptive nano membrane equal ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.30 12:14:00 - [25] Originally by: MrRookie XL boster2 with amp repairs 156 dps using 73,6 cap/s - 2,12 HP/cap 2 Large Rep 2s repairs 133,33 dps using 66,66 cap/s - 2,12 HP/cap 133.33 / 66.66 = 2
MrRookie Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.08.30 12:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: MrRookie XL boster2 with amp repairs 156 dps using 73,6 cap/s - 2,12 HP/cap 2 Large Rep 2s repairs 133,33 dps using 66,66 cap/s - 2,12 HP/cap 133.33 / 66.66 = 2 Yes, sorry that was a typo ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
Pottsey Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.30 14:29:00 - [27] Edited by: Pottsey on 30/08/2006 14:30:29 ôIndeed, I assume you are refering to Invulnerability field 2. They use cap, and have very high fitting requirements so I still concider the Energized adaptive nano membrane equalö They donÆt have very high fitting requirements and are very similar to nanos as for cap usage its tiny I use them on my frigates without a problem. Invulnerability field 2 it a tiny bit harder to fit but it needs less skill training and gives better resistance. If you fit 2 or 3 Invulnerability fields your going have better resistance then an amour tank with 2 or 3 Energized adaptive nanoÆs. More then enough resistance to make up for the slightly higher base amour tanks have. That and the nanos take a good months of training if you want 25% to all resistance while the fields take no where near that amount of time for 30%. Passive shield tanking guide, click here.
Jerick Ludhowe Arcana Imperii Ltd.	Posted - 2006.08.30 15:42:00 - [28] First and formost the faction shield booster need to be nerfed, Hard. They do not follow the progression that almost all other faction modules follow and the one advantage that armor tanking has over shield tanking is no longer present in the world of faction modules. Saying that the ballance of faction modules does not matter is beyond ignorant. Making isk in eve today is childs play, this allows a far greater number of people acess to these modules. Secondly I think shield tanks needs to be adressed in other ways. One of the largest complaints that shield tankers have is that they are forced to cram their mids full of tank instead of tackling gear. I think this is a reasonably valid complaint so I propose that certain shield tanking modules (maybee boost amps?) be moved to low slots allowing more room for tackling ect. As for armor tanking I think outside of being able to tackle it gets the shaft. Regaurdles of the actual stats of the modules armor tanking has two disadvantages compared to shiled tanking. First and formost being that shields recharge passivly, armor clearly does not. Second being that after an armor tank breaks you only have your structure as a buffer, for shield tanking you have both armor and structure for the target to blow through. As I'm sure many of you have noticed shield tankers have more skills available to them than armor tankers do notably the fitting req reductions, and the cap use reductions. For this reason I propose that armor tanks get a similar -2% per level to cap use of armor repper modules. my .2 iskies
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.30 15:55:00 - [29] The cap effectivness of shield tank vs armor tank is not only in the shield booster it also part of other modules such as hardeners and cap recharge boosting mods. Inv Fields use more cap than EANs for example and then there is cap rechargers vs cap relays vs pdu. Relays have such high cap recharge increase compared to the others and are only practicly useful for armor tankers. Combine this and it's much easier to create a cap stable armor tank than a shield tank of compareable hp/sec. In general I would say shield do make stronger tanks for PvE if nothing else but for the fact that faction shield boosters are MUCH better than faction armor repairs. But instead Armor is better for PvP. The reason for this difference is that for PvP there are so many important modules that only come in mid-slot versions (web, scam, ab/mwd, ecm, injectors, etc) that you just won't have enough mid slots left for tank after fitting them.
Matrim Acoma	Posted - 2006.08.30 16:29:00 - [30] Jerick Regarding the Gistii booster....it does only boost 57hp, which drastically limits it. If it was an XL booster that had that level of efficiency, it would be a totally different story. Essentially, it's good for frigs....and a heavy precision missile attack can easily overwhelm the boost rate. The advantage of armor tankers over shield tanker is also still there even w/ this faction module, free mid-slots for tackle. Also, with respect to the low CAP usage on the gistii booster, most folks using it run weapons w/ no CAP requirements, like missiles. The issue w/ shield tankers cramming their mid's full of tank is the balance to the armor tankers. On the flipside, shield tankers get to stuff dmg mods in the low slots, like BCU & MFS. The only time passive shield regen matters is if the entire ship is setup for a passive tank. If you are not specifically designed for passive tank, the regen is negligible. Regarding shield tankers having armor & structure before getting blown up if you tank breaks....the armor & structure HP for a shield tanker, plus the resists are usually very low. That gets blown through very quickly. Armor tankers also have shields, which have to get blown through before the dmg starts into their armor tank anyway. Another benefit for Armor tank is that there is no increase to sig radius, like there is with shield tank when extenders are used. Sure, Armor tankers lose a bit of agility w/ the weight, but on anything bigger than a frig, agility is crap anyway. - Mat

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