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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1580
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:55:20 -
[31] - Quote
Still waiting for someone to tell me how twitch-managing skill injections is compelling gameplay, in contrast to CCP Seagul's stated goal combined with the recent release of unlimited skill queue durations...
"To help people temporarily lacking access to an EVE client and generally remove annoyance, in Phoebe you will be able to construct and start training skill queues of unlimited time length." -- CCP Seagul
So obviously that change was implemented to appease 'whiners' right, and wasn't welcomed at all? Laughable.
Someone explain to me how continued twitch-management of injecting successors and filling a queue with 'filler' skills between a predecessor and dependant successor skill is compelling EvE gameplay, and I will let this rest.
Until then, bad mechanic is bad. Period.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1701
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:19:01 -
[32] - Quote
Possibly because it's not 'twitch' game play. Unless your reflexes are so slow that weeks of time is a single twitch to you.
It's not a 'bad' mechanic. It's a mechanic that avoids you being able to bypass availability of skill books in your region. So any change to allow early injecting needs to maintain some kind of physical risk as if you were carrying a skill book in your hold. Say..... Any skill in 'holding' is automatically lost when you are podded so you have to buy the skill book again and an additional cost to convert it into a digital item.
Currently the gameplay of having to physically get & move skill books creates interaction and pilots in space. You have to make sure not to remove the aspect of pilots in space, trade in skill books, and the risk of moving skill books.
Could it be changed, sure. It however is not an automatic follow on from an extended skill queue as it has significantly larger impacts than simply removing tedium & artificial difficulty. |
Iain Cariaba
629
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:22:22 -
[33] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: Again, tell me. How is being forced to log in just to inject a successor skill and add it to the queue immediately after a predecessor skill finishes compelling gameplay?
Let's look at this from the other side.
You say the current system is not compelling, well tell us how your idea is more compelling. How is the ability to go to Jita, buy every skillbook you'd ever want to use, inject them all, setup a queue, and then not log into the game for three years until you can fly a Titan compelling gameplay? As it currently stands, it is absurdly simple to setup a queue that stretches longer than the average deployment time of the average soldier.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1581
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:34:46 -
[34] - Quote
The rollout of the unlimited duration queue invalidates any argument against loading long duration queues, people can do that already now. CCP did it. Its here.
Skill queues are no longer being used as a bullwhip to make people log in every 24 hours. Let that sink in first.
Then re-read Seaguls driver for recent changes, and what I propose..
"To help people temporarily lacking access to an EVE client and generally remove annoyance..."
So here we already now have an unlimited duration skill queue, that already lets people load it up with a years worth of skills, but you guys are nitpicking because I want to change said 1 year load from FILLER skills between predecessors and successors, with skills actually desired by the player as priority '1'?
That is a bad mechanic. Period.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Iain Cariaba
629
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Posted - 2014.11.19 22:18:31 -
[35] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:The rollout of the unlimited duration queue IN ITSELF invalidated any argument against loading long duration queues, people can do that already now. CCP did it. Its here.
Skill queues are no longer being used as a bullwhip to make people log in every 24 hours. Let that sink in first.
Then re-read Seaguls driver for recent changes, and what I propose..
"To help people temporarily lacking access to an EVE client and generally remove annoyance..."
So here we already now have an unlimited duration skill queue, that already lets people load it up with a years worth of skills, but you guys are nitpicking because I want to change said 1 year load from FILLER skills between predecessors and successors, with skills actually desired by the player as priority '1' instead?
You are so freaking absessed with an 'injection' mechanic, for the sake of being stubborn, that you don't realize how stupid you sound in trying to rationalize continued annoyance in skill queue management with red-herring arguments that are now long dead.
That is a bad mechanic. Period.
F Yet you are entirely obsessed with being able to add every single skill you'd ever need at once, simply because you find it annoying. You have yet to demonstrate how this suggestion would improve the game, beyond you being less annoyed at having to log on once every six months to inject a dozen skills that will, collectively, take less than half a day to train to level 1.
Since you reside in highsec, you have easy access to all the skillbook you'd ever need. The residents of nullsec, however, don't have access to the abundance of highsec skillbooks. We can either jump clone back to highsec to buy them, and wait out the timer to jump clone back, fly an interceptor up to highsec, if we have the skills, or have them brought out to us. So your idea would be extremely beneficial to me, up to a point.
Now, imagine your idea was implemented back before the patch that added the compression array to POSes, and you were a nullsec miner that wanted a Rorqual to compress ore with. Imagine you had gone down the day before that patch was announced, spent half a billion isk on the Capital Industrial Ship skillbook, went ahead and injected it, cause you could in this scenario. Now, how would you feel to have spent half a billion isk on a skillbook you injected for a ship that just got made utterly worthless.
There are many reasons why your idea is a bad one that outweigh its annoyance factor to you. Your utter disregard for all arguments against your idea and your statement of "that is a bad mechanic, period" is on par with the highsec carebears and their nerf ganking stance.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
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SNORE LAX
FU TAX MAN
0
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Posted - 2014.11.19 22:28:48 -
[36] - Quote
Why do Americans always try to make Mountains out of Molehills ? Serious question, cause they seem to do it with everything o_O
What the OP is essentially asking for is a complete overhaul of the entire skill que code .... does he not realize this ? And all for an extremely minor issue.
Also, people change their minds all the time. How many players have ever bought a skillbook ... only to resell it later on because they changed their mind ? Thank god for that injection pre-req mechanic, am i right ? Can you only imagine the headache it would cause CCP with countless noobs petitioning to remove X Dreadnaught/Carrier/Titan skill book injection from their skill que ?
-1 for the OP's issue -99999999999 for the OP's Entitled/Poor Attitude
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Iain Cariaba
629
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Posted - 2014.11.19 22:34:51 -
[37] - Quote
SNORE LAX wrote:-99999999999 for the OP's Entitled/Poor Attitude Feyd's not usually this carebearish... wonder what's up.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
539
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Posted - 2014.11.19 22:42:38 -
[38] - Quote
Service members can find a trusted friend/ask spouse to log in to inject skills.
Iffy argument here. I served. I saw Marines give access to their cars while away to have them run the car and keep it from sitting. I personally was the custodian of a few cars while my friends in other units were deployed. Was even trusted with cash to cover expenses. Like one friend wanted car washed monthly and liked one place in particular to get washed at. I got x months of his deployment washing fees + some gas money and insurance since running out while gone. Once a week daily drive, 1 monthly spirited run on a nice highway but nothing extreme....friend came back to car that didn't have issues from sitting too long.
Moral of this story....I was trusted with several thousands of dollars in car and parts (modified cars, I could have just borrowed some parts and they would never know...but I didn't. If a service member can't find a friend to watch an account that is worth 15 a month....they have issues.
There is the spouse option if you have one. the eula thing about sharing accounts is a CYOA for CCP.
Married service member goes on deployment. Float hits Thailand (lets have the Marine get on a MEU, usually a mix of crap real world ops, SOC training ops, with liberty exercises in exotic ports like thailand). Old boy has fun in Thailand, too much fun. Wife finds out. trashes the account. If they petition this the no sharing rule gets CCP off the hook.
Lets have the Marine be a good boy. No other woman(women). they come back, wife did the skill things while deployed. CCP imo could care less you shared the account.
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Revman Zim
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
259
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Posted - 2014.11.19 22:55:02 -
[39] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:
Married service member goes on deployment. Float hits Thailand (lets have the Marine get on a MEU, usually a mix of crap real world ops, SOC training ops, with liberty exercises in exotic ports like thailand).
This is how I managed during my 7-11 month deployments. There would ALWAYS be a time every month or two that I would have access to the internet. Internet cafe's and a cheap laptop work wonders. No need for graphics, just able to log onto the client and queue up skills.
The account sharing is against the EULA and I would never suggest anyone do it. However, I am sure it happens. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
539
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Posted - 2014.11.19 23:03:53 -
[40] - Quote
Revman Zim wrote:Zan Shiro wrote:
Married service member goes on deployment. Float hits Thailand (lets have the Marine get on a MEU, usually a mix of crap real world ops, SOC training ops, with liberty exercises in exotic ports like thailand).
This is how I managed during my 7-11 month deployments. There would ALWAYS be a time every month or two that I would have access to the internet. Internet cafe's and a cheap laptop work wonders. No need for graphics, just able to log onto the client and queue up skills. The account sharing is against the EULA and I would never suggest anyone do it. However, I am sure it happens.
My take on eula is its the GM's way out when petitions come in. as soon as you say I gave away my account for (insert some story here) they probably copy and paste in canned response basically saying sucks to be you. Do see your point, but if trusted party does nothing wrong...no blood no foul and I don't see ccp looking to scour records to permaban people for doing it. |
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Jur Tissant
The TERRA Guardians of Serenity
325
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Posted - 2014.11.20 03:44:06 -
[41] - Quote
Actually this is particularly noticeable for wormhole residents, especially those without a high-sec static. You either have to keep all the skillbooks you'll need with you in the hole, or venture into dangerous territory when you finally do need them. It'd be much easier to inject them first, then queue them up for your 4th day of training while you are still in the hole.
But all in all I see no convincing reason why you shouldn't be able to inject skills whenever and EVE should be as free as possible. |
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
4483
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 08:10:40 -
[42] - Quote
prevents you from training the skill when you don't have its prerequisite skills trained.
I'm a Snaper - imgur.com/8EHPPWU
mad? ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Hengle Teron > v(t) = dp / dt
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
274
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Posted - 2014.11.20 10:14:09 -
[43] - Quote
If there is already a validation on training skills at training time, sure, go ahead and pull a redundant verification. If its gonna take the dev time to add one when you qeue the skill, then no, this is a small QOL change for most, and even then, it isn't so great an idea as to be worth large amounts of development time IMO
Making battleships worth the warp
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2014.11.20 12:27:48 -
[44] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: You are so freaking absessed with an 'injection' mechanic, for the sake of being stubborn, that you don't realize how stupid you sound in trying to rationalize continued annoyance in skill queue management with red-herring arguments that are now long dead.
That is a bad mechanic. Period.
F
You're embarassingly poor-quality trolling hasn't moved me in the least. However, for the vanishingly small chance that you're being serious, I'll point out your obsessive refusal to acknowledge the difference between what skills are currently in your head and actuallty training them. If you have no skill in frigate you cannot fly the frigate; you need to train it. You cannot train any T2 frigate until you have trained frigate to 5; your mind will not be able to understand how to. There's no point picking up the book as it won't make any sense without the prerequisite learning; you would not be able to absorb (inject) the information in the book, let alone put it into practice (training).
As for your military connection: no army with any level of competence would even list a man for field duty without his passing first basic training.
A mental midget writes |
Shivanthar
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
121
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Posted - 2014.11.20 22:37:46 -
[45] - Quote
I'm mostly with Feyd with this one. Feyd, when you start telling people "inject even not pre-req is not met", literally everyone will be against to your idea. So, let the system do it for you. Let the training queue receive books as the same way as skills. That way, people have to go purchase all the skill books they need, return to their stations and just put books in their skill queues after pre-req skills, making them auto-inject when time comes.
I think ccp would be doing something similar like this. I know because I am pretty sure I read a csm or dev post somewhere clearly implying that they're going to work on a way to make this happen.
_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
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Arronicus
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1275
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 12:13:31 -
[46] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
What I mean is this....
Now that we have this awesome shiny unlimited skill queue, why the frack am I still prevented from injecting a skill
Because this would completely break the 'if you could fly it before, you can fly it now' grandfather system, which prevents pilots from no longer being able to fly ships that they could once fly before.
Only working suggestion imo is to allow you to que up skillbooks so that they inject ONCE you meet the pre-reqs, if that is possible without a coding nightmare.
/thread.
Still, think this is a non-issue |
Shivanthar
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
122
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Posted - 2014.11.21 17:42:38 -
[47] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:
... Only working suggestion imo is to allow you to que up skillbooks so that they inject ONCE you meet the pre-reqs, if that is possible without a coding nightmare. ...
This. 11/10
Also my previous post prior to yours. I'm also talking about this.
_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1591
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Posted - 2014.11.21 17:57:02 -
[48] - Quote
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote: You're embarassingly poor-quality trolling hasn't moved me in the least. However, for the vanishingly small chance that you're being serious, I'll point out your obsessive refusal to acknowledge the difference between what skills are currently in your head and actuallty training them. If you have no skill in frigate you cannot fly the frigate; you need to train it. You cannot train any T2 frigate until you have trained frigate to 5; your mind will not be able to understand how to. There's no point picking up the book as it won't make any sense without the prerequisite learning; you would not be able to absorb (inject) the information in the book, let alone put it into practice (training).
As for your military connection: no army with any level of competence would even list a man for field duty without his passing first basic training.
I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself that I am only talking about removing the queue load dependancy, not the actual training dependancy.
But hey, lets use your own remedial example...
Lets say said 'basic training' is composed of two courses, which must be done in order...
- physical training (1 month), followed by... - hand-to-hand combat (2 weeks)
You (and todays EvE queue) is saying the training planner or platoon leader simply cannot put the dates for hand-to-hand combat training up on the platoon bulletin board and schedule the h-to-h classes, until the platoon physically finishes its physical training course first.
Then, when the PT course ends, and the platoon leader finds himself down with the flu and off base, the entire platoon sits idle for 3 days, until he can drag arse onto the base and pin the h-to-h course dates on the bulletin board for them to start.
No one is saying they can start h-to-h before finishing PT, we are just saying let the damned planner put the f#$)(#ing course on the bulletin board & schedule!
F#P($#*)(!
F
Would you like to know more?
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Sgt Soulless
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2014.11.21 19:00:50 -
[49] - Quote
Maradusa Macarthy wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Injection of skills you do not have to prereqs for is a very common request. It is not the same task as opening up the skill queue. Hopefully things will reach the point that we can also have this change made. I do not think the lack of it invalidates the current improvements to the skill queue. Geez I can't believe anybody from CCP is even considering allowing skills to be injected without having the skill prerequisites meet first. I mean seriously just how easy do you intend to make this game. Keep it up and before long this game is gonna get very BOOOOORING. The new skill training queue is fine as is. You don't have to cater to everyone's needs because of laziness. I mean before the change I had to log on to update my skill queue every single day and now it's like once a month which I consider a HUUGE improvement. SO what more do you need. Quit been lazy and be happy with the current changes the older veterans as you describe had it way harder in the past.
God I hope that was meant to be sarcastic, but just in case it wasn't...
Tell me; are you or were you ever deriving significant satisfaction from the challenge of buying skills, right-clicking them, injecting them, and then dragging them from your skill list into the queue? Is this hardcore enough for you? You say the OP's request would make the game "BOOOOORING". Do you actually find it fun to wait for level 5 prereqs to finish before you can inject the next skill needed to allow the use of a module or ship? Do you derive entertainment value from right-clicking on skill books or dragging and dropping skills from one list to another?
In case it's not sinking in, my point is that skill queuing is not directly involved in the entertainment value or challenge provided by the game. To argue against the OP's proposed change based on the idea that it devalues the game in those respects is utterly ridiculous. The skill queue has always been intended as a background task. If they wanted skill training to require significant player input or have significant impact on the entertainment value and challenge of the game, they wouldn't have made a passive skill training system in the first place. If keeping ahead of their skill queue is the only motivation a player has to log in, then they probably just shouldn't be playing the game. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1993
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 07:01:09 -
[50] - Quote
Acquiring and holding skills is time, effort and risk. Even if its not a great deal of such, its still there.
Having a skill auto-inject and train upon completion of requisites would be ideal, but is that even possible?
skills would have to appear in the training queue for just being in your hangar, and then what happens if you leave your hangar? Would they auto-clear? or would the client just run a check when you're adding it to the training queue and then another check when it comes time to train?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2014.11.22 10:58:53 -
[51] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself that I am only talking about removing the queue load dependancy, not the actual training dependancy.
But hey, lets use your own remedial example...
Lets say said 'basic training' is composed of two courses, which must be done in order...
- physical training (1 month), followed by... - hand-to-hand combat (2 weeks)
You (and todays EvE queue) is saying the training planner or platoon leader simply cannot put the dates for hand-to-hand combat training up on the platoon bulletin board and schedule the h-to-h classes, until the platoon physically finishes its physical training course first.
Then, when the PT course ends, and the platoon leader finds himself down with the flu and off base, the entire platoon sits idle for 3 days, until he can drag arse onto the base and pin the h-to-h course dates on the bulletin board for them to start.
No one is saying they can start h-to-h before finishing PT, we are just saying let the damned planner put the f#$)(#ing course on the bulletin board & schedule!
F#P($#*)(!
F
You are capable of training anything in the skill queue; that's how it's set-up. You can't train anything if you haven't learnt how to. I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself, but your requirement to schedule training when you don't even understand what it is you intend to train is ludicrous.
As for your use of the military analogy: the second is not conditional on the first; they are part of the same thing. You can be taught H-t-H without having past PT; you just won't be as good as someone who has achieved required fitness.
You're coming across as a desperate whiner. It's almost embarassing. Please stop. |
Alruan Shadowborn
InterSun Freelance SONS of BANE
1
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Posted - 2014.11.22 13:11:01 -
[52] - Quote
When this change was made, CCP explained they could not allow injection of skills without pre-reqs, as their grandfathering code allows the training of any injected skill, even if the pre-req's are no longer met.
Though they did mention that that may be reviewed in the future.
Personally, I think it is fine though |
brinelan
156
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Posted - 2014.11.23 03:10:33 -
[53] - Quote
Back when I was a new player there was no skill queue, so if you had a bunch of 1x and 2x skills you trained them when you were online and set one that hopefully wouldn't finish before your next login. We learned to think ahead and train skills around our play time but have a level 5 or two for those times when you knew you wouldnt be able to log in for a bit and a really long one to let train a little here and there to make sure you weren't going to stop training.
Be happy you even get a skillqueue.... |
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2014.11.23 12:01:08 -
[54] - Quote
brinelan wrote:Back when I was a new player there was no skill queue, so if you had a bunch of 1x and 2x skills you trained them when you were online and set one that hopefully wouldn't finish before your next login. We learned to think ahead and train skills around our play time but have a level 5 or two for those times when you knew you wouldnt be able to log in for a bit and a really long one to let train a little here and there to make sure you weren't going to stop training.
Be happy you even get a skillqueue.... Hahaaaaaa.... I was wondering how much more of this the bittervets could take. Thanks for a truly entertaining post! |
Shivanthar
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 11:39:12 -
[55] - Quote
brinelan wrote:Back when I was a new player there was no skill queue, so if you had a bunch of 1x and 2x skills you trained them when you were online and set one that hopefully wouldn't finish before your next login. We learned to think ahead and train skills around our play time but have a level 5 or two for those times when you knew you wouldnt be able to log in for a bit and a really long one to let train a little here and there to make sure you weren't going to stop training.
Be happy you even get a skillqueue....
When there were first humans, there weren't any fire, tyre and tools to make humans lives easier.
Be happy that you have a working system that educated you to read,write and use your computer and mouse at this time in order to express your thoughts and don't even ask any more since humanity shouldn't improve any single bit more...
-"What kind of sorcery is this!" the man asked himself...
Coding implementation at the time t1 should and will be improved at time t2 in order to compete with market, improving codebase and player experience. No matter how some conservative playerbase want the game to stay same or don't think it is NOT going to change...
_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
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Madeleine Lemmont
Divide et Impera DE
10
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Posted - 2014.11.24 12:37:43 -
[56] - Quote
You can enter every ship you have skills for now. You don't need skills to activate modules. If you miss a modules skill prerequisite, the module stays offline.
Comparable to this new possibility it seems to be a logical step to do following: - Allow to inject skills always. - Allow to train injected skills, if the prereqisites are reached in queue before.
If you try to remove i.e. level 3 of a skill, while level 4 is still inserted in queue, you'll get an error message. So far it should be able to check prereqs for already injected skills too. I see no conflicts to present possibilities in game.
The endless skillqueue could only be the first step in order to create further demand of user accounts for plain skilling reasons. So far it's a reasonable business decision of CCP. But maybe not possible with existing code directly or not priorized yet.
Only my 5 cents.
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Madeleine Lemmont
Divide et Impera DE
10
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Posted - 2014.11.24 12:45:33 -
[57] - Quote
brinelan wrote:Be happy you even get a skillqueue.... No.
Usually we don't live in yesterday. But a lot of players seems to do so. OK, freeze your live at its present point too. Take your retirement pension and keep off of improvement discussions.
People won't ever be happy with their present situation. We all want more and new achievements/challenges. Stop progression and innovation and you will stop aquiring new players. That's all folks.
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