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Alruan Shadowborn
InterSun Freelance
SONS of BANE
0
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Posted - 2014.11.20 05:18:58 -
[1] - Quote
Hey,
This idea came to me the other day, on how we can make the Ishtar still an option for people, but one that comes with more considerations.
And it does not involving adjusting the hull at all.
Currently, if you look at missiles and guns, you have to be able to lock to fire, and if someone wants to disrupt you doing that, they target your ship and Neut/Damp/Disrupt/ECM you, affecting all your weapons.
With Droneboats, I believe currently to disrupt tracking or any other mechanism, you need to destroy their drones, which they can launch another flight of, etc.
In order to balance these ships more, would it be possible to make Damps affect Drone Control Range, ie the control ship needs to be closer to the target, just like Damps on a turret ship. This creates the opportunity for an enemy to force the droneboat into engagement range, or to disengage.
Likewise, having tracking disruptors affect Omni Tracking Links would mean that the entire weapon system had reduced tracking, making the choice of drones for differing engagements more important than drop sentries with multiple tracking links/enhancers to boost it enough.
Lastly, and more controversially, remove Aggressive mode from drones, make people lock and fire them each time, so that damps have a real effect on droneboats, and also force considerations on whether it is better to assist all the drones to one guy who can be damped, or to assist to multiple, or make everyone fight themselves and present many targets.
These Ewar types, would force more interesting combat choices, and ensure that Ishtars are more engageable than they currently are.
Let the roars of fury flow |
Luwc
Confederation of Independent Contractors
Swamphole
308
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Posted - 2014.11.20 07:59:14 -
[2] - Quote
Anything that nerfes Ishtars online gets a +1
http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
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WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
4482
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Posted - 2014.11.20 08:01:30 -
[3] - Quote
we don't even have missile damping yet and you already want drone damping?
pfffffffffffffff. no 
I'm a Snaper - imgur.com/8EHPPWU
mad? ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Hengle Teron > v(t) = dp / dt
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Alruan Shadowborn
InterSun Freelance
SONS of BANE
0
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Posted - 2014.11.20 08:15:06 -
[4] - Quote
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame wrote:we don't even have missile damping yet and you already want drone damping? pfffffffffffffff. no
Whilst I like your quip, damps will work on missiles, as it is to do with targeting. Drones as they stand don't need to be targeted, they are more effective if targeted, but if you lose lock they will keep attacking targets. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
779
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Posted - 2014.11.20 08:17:22 -
[5] - Quote
Here's a test for someone. Damps work on the drone boat to break/prevent lock so use a damping ship at range with long range guns to kill the drones, I'm pretty sure that if a drone boat deploys drones once already being fired on the drones will not auto agress the currently firing enemy (mine don't when I deploy new drones in combat anoms). Drone boat will either need to close one you or pick up the drones. if it closes you can draw it away from the drones, if it scoops then fire on the drone boat before it deploys more drones and they will sit there dumbly ignoring you until the drone pilot can get a lock.
As I say worth a test since I'm working of observed drone behaviour in combat anoms rather than PvP |
Aplysia Vejun
The Scope
Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2014.11.20 08:21:53 -
[6] - Quote
Kill the Drone assist function to balance drone boats.
for the rest: why dont you complain about t3 ships? Same range, more dps, faster, 5+ times the tank. and the dps cannot be destroyed |
Andrew Indy
Four Pillar Production
Headshot Gaming
112
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Posted - 2014.11.20 08:31:58 -
[7] - Quote
It still would not affect larger drone fleets, very rarely do you have a large fleet spreading Ewar effectively on all enemy DPS.
Also this would nerf a lot of non sentry boats who's drone are already very vulnerable to smart bombs and enemy fire. |
Hairpins Blueprint
CBC Interstellar
Fidelas Constans
88
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Posted - 2014.11.20 12:04:12 -
[8] - Quote
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame wrote:we don't even have missile damping yet and you already want drone damping? pfffffffffffffff. no
it's eay to kill missles with smart bombs :) and drones are good as they are, there are a loot of pitfalls with drones.
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Alruan Shadowborn
InterSun Freelance
SONS of BANE
0
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Posted - 2014.11.20 13:49:58 -
[9] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:Kill the Drone assist function to balance drone boats.
for the rest: why dont you complain about t3 ships? Same range, more dps, faster, 5+ times the tank. and the dps cannot be destroyed
edit: and there is nothing unbalanced with the Dominix
Even without drone assist, Ishtar fleets are OP. Don't get me wrong, I love my Ishtar, but I don't believe it's strength is good for the health of the game. Likewise, I don't feel that poking it's hull bonuses around will truly create viable alternatives, or tactical choices.
By allowing EWAR to impact Drones and drone boats, it forces people to make tactical choices to overcome them, whilst still allowing drones to do their thing. Poorly equipped or chosen fleets or ships can still be destroyed by the ishtar, but through creative fitting or fleet composition, it will be possible to overcome.
Andrew Indy wrote:It still would not affect larger drone fleets, very rarely do you have a large fleet spreading Ewar effectively on all enemy DPS.
Also this would nerf a lot of non sentry boats who's drone are already very vulnerable to smart bombs and enemy fire.
EWAR still has a role in fleet fights, either to break Logi chains so you can have a chance to destroy either DPS or Logi Ships, if Logi is broken, the DPS will not last very long. Ewar does not need to be projected onto all DPS, it's about shutting down segments in order to force engagement, or complete disengagement.
As for non sentry boats, yep, they would still be impacted, and why not. But likewise, is there a real advantage to taking EWAR against other droneboats to the same extent? ie do they have the same sort of range advantage that the Ishtar has, etc to justify taking an EWAR boat, where another DPS ship would achieve the same end.
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame wrote:we don't even have missile damping yet and you already want drone damping? pfffffffffffffff. no it's eay to kill missles with smart bombs :) and drones are good as they are, there are a loot of pitfalls with drones.
Agreed there are pitfalls, but not really enough to force choices to be made on the Ishtar in my opinion
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
64
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Posted - 2014.11.20 14:22:36 -
[10] - Quote
Alruan Shadowborn wrote:Lastly, and more controversially, remove Aggressive mode from drones, make people lock and fire them each time, so that damps have a real effect on droneboats, and also force considerations on whether it is better to assist all the drones to one guy who can be damped, or to assist to multiple, or make everyone fight themselves and present many targets.
Finally a drones change that I can get behind. Most PvE players that use drones never use aggressive mode anyway so this change does not affect them in any significant way so +1 to this part of your idea.
-1 to the rest.
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
899
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Posted - 2014.11.20 14:33:46 -
[11] - Quote
I can stand by most of what the op stated. There needs to be some adjustment regarding the Ishtar in addition to that.
Yaay!!!!
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WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
4598
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Posted - 2014.11.20 14:41:34 -
[12] - Quote
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame wrote:we don't even have missile damping yet and you already want drone damping? pfffffffffffffff. no it's eay to kill missles with smart bombs :) and drones are good as they are, there are a loot of pitfalls with drones.
smartbombs are effective against drones too, you know...
I'm a Snaper - imgur.com/8EHPPWU
mad? ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Hengle Teron > v(t) = dp / dt
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
981
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Posted - 2014.11.20 15:23:07 -
[13] - Quote
Personally, I think that Celestii are way more OP than Ishtars and Domis.
We are still flying Ishtars and they are way less useful than they used to be after their last nerf round. People also have finally begun to show intelligent behavior and started destroying the drones when they cannot hit the Ishtars. This leaves the Ishtars very quickly without anything to shoot.
Oh, and a note from another, very similar topic: You can nerf or change however you want; if there are 100+ ships of a class, they will outmatch you in any case. See for that, for instance, one of the recent Naglfars which died to a swarm of Arty Claws. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
762
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Posted - 2014.11.20 15:33:32 -
[14] - Quote
nerf minmatar! |
Alruan Shadowborn
InterSun Freelance
SONS of BANE
0
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Posted - 2014.11.21 02:51:57 -
[15] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Personally, I think that Celestii are way more OP than Ishtars and Domis.
We are still flying Ishtars and they are way less useful than they used to be after their last nerf round. People also have finally begun to show intelligent behavior and started destroying the drones when they cannot hit the Ishtars. This leaves the Ishtars very quickly without anything to shoot.
Oh, and a note from another, very similar topic: You can nerf or change however you want; if there are 100+ ships of a class, they will outmatch you in any case. See for that, for instance, one of the recent Naglfars which died to a swarm of Arty Claws.
Interesting point with the Celestis, though I do not really remember seeing too many swarms of Celestii on the killboards, Ishtars on the other hand...... Pray tell how it is OP?
If people talk about droneboats, there is few, if any, other ship used as frequently, or with such success as the Ishtar, so much so that more people are using the Ishtar all the time. The last "nerf round" as you put it was quite farcical, as many people demonstrated with Graphs, etc demonstrating the miniscule effect from the bonus changes. Even after the changes, CCP recognise the ship is still better than it's peers, by rating it a higher points value for the Alliance Tournament.
Yes drones can be destroyed, but in the time it takes a similar sized fleet to destroy one Ishtar's drones, how much damage have the Drones from the ishtar fleet caused?
As to the comment about 100 plus ships, and the example given I agree that 100 of a ship vs one other ship will always end badly for the one, a fleet of 100 Ishtars hits well above it's class against larger opponents of similar size. Remember, Sentries and Heavies are a Battleship sized weapon system.
My post is not about making the ishtar impossible to use, but making it susceptible to similar things to other weapon systems, right now you cannot limit the damage protection range of a drone boat, any other weapon system you can
NOTE - I do understand that fleet composition and tactics have a role to play in the success of Ishtars, something your alliance has demonstrated to effect. |
Vapor Ventrillian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.11.21 03:16:11 -
[16] - Quote
New High slot item- The "Targeted Micro E.C.M"
simply put it acts a E.M.P and has a chance to throw off the missiles and push drones away and the stun them momentarily...should be pretty cool
The Evil Overlord of Scope, self elected as all good overlords should be
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Andrew Indy
Four Pillar Production
Headshot Gaming
112
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Posted - 2014.11.21 05:43:40 -
[17] - Quote
Alruan Shadowborn
[quote=Andrew Indy wrote:It still would not affect larger drone fleets, very rarely do you have a large fleet spreading Ewar effectively on all enemy DPS.
Also this would nerf a lot of non sentry boats who's drone are already very vulnerable to smart bombs and enemy fire.
EWAR still has a role in fleet fights, either to break Logi chains so you can have a chance to destroy either DPS or Logi Ships, if Logi is broken, the DPS will not last very long. Ewar does not need to be projected onto all DPS, it's about shutting down segments in order to force engagement, or complete disengagement.
As for non sentry boats, yep, they would still be impacted, and why not. But likewise, is there a real advantage to taking EWAR against other droneboats to the same extent? ie do they have the same sort of range advantage that the Ishtar has, etc to justify taking an EWAR boat, where another DPS ship would achieve the same end.
Agreed there are pitfalls, but not really enough to force choices to be made on the Ishtar in my opinion
[/quote]
That's was sort of my whole point, In a large fleet people focus Ewar on Logi, tackle ect, its hardly ever spread on DPS , at which point its irreverent what that DPS is.
As far as Non sentry boats go, If a normal drone ship is affected by Ewar then they are at an even more of a disadvantage than a gun/missile boat. Since you can not only lock down their ability to apply DPS but kill the DPS as well.
Eg, TD a Gila, kill its drones while its moving into range/jammed then kill the ship. At least with a Gun/missile boat once they are in range/have a lock they can apply the same DPS.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
13959
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Posted - 2014.11.21 05:51:36 -
[18] - Quote
Use the nerf bat on sentries and keep on swinging until they stop twitching.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Segraina Skyblazer
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.11.21 06:59:19 -
[19] - Quote
Umm no and no to a sentry nerf. The Ishtar should actually be a heavy drone boat not a sentry drone boat, and since it has higher mobility than the Dominix even more so. CCP doesn't need to touch sentry drones at all ( it will destroy the dominix for sure), but having a cruiser use long range battleships weapons should be address. They should remove the sentry drone bonus altogether and replace it with 10% heavy drone orbiting and optimal range per level (so that the heavy drones can hit and orbit targets out of web range) and a -10% reduction in heavy drone signature radius per level. |
Luwc
Confederation of Independent Contractors
Swamphole
310
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Posted - 2014.11.21 08:13:45 -
[20] - Quote
Remove Sentries from the Game.
Problem Solved.
http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
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Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion
The Bastion
561
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Posted - 2014.11.21 10:22:09 -
[21] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:Kill the Drone assist function to balance drone boats.
for the rest: why dont you complain about t3 ships? Same range, more dps, faster, 5+ times the tank. and the dps cannot be destroyed
edit: and there is nothing unbalanced with the Dominix
Yet you can shut down 100% of the DPS of a T3 by damping it so it cannot lock you. Drones can bne assisted to someone who isn't damped even if your ship is permanently jammed. |
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
80
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Posted - 2014.11.21 23:29:20 -
[22] - Quote
restrict cruiser+ sizes to carring only 7 drones, or unable to carry both medium and light drones at the same time.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
80
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Posted - 2014.11.21 23:31:01 -
[23] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Alruan Shadowborn wrote:Lastly, and more controversially, remove Aggressive mode from drones, make people lock and fire them each time, so that damps have a real effect on droneboats, and also force considerations on whether it is better to assist all the drones to one guy who can be damped, or to assist to multiple, or make everyone fight themselves and present many targets. Finally a drones change that I can get behind. Most PvE players that use drones never use aggressive mode anyway so this change does not affect them in any significant way so +1 to this part of your idea. -1 to the rest.
If combat drones weren't so obviously powerful, ewar drones might get used more often. We just have to look at the rate of what type of drones are being used to see what's OP.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
957
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Posted - 2014.11.22 03:04:17 -
[24] - Quote
Make ECM disrupt drone control range and drone control bandwidth by a % make 2 new scripts, and poof you have your counter, while solving the side theatre of "Whaaa ECM". You can effectively remove the all or nothing effect of ECM at the same time.
Id sat following a similar line as the sensor damp structure wouldn't hurt. 34% before bonuses with a script.
This of course would mean ECM would no longer target, targeting systems, and might give CCP an excuse to add a drone bandwith boosting module to help offset the effects of ECM, (like Sebo's Tracking Computers etc). Which would also allow for other interesting uses for drone boats to explore.
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Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
161
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Posted - 2014.11.22 04:08:41 -
[25] - Quote
Alruan Shadowborn wrote:Hey,
This idea came to me the other day, on how we can make the Ishtar still an option for people, but one that comes with more considerations.
And it does not involving adjusting the hull at all.
Currently, if you look at missiles and guns, you have to be able to lock to fire, and if someone wants to disrupt you doing that, they target your ship and Neut/Damp/Disrupt/ECM you, affecting all your weapons.
With Droneboats, I believe currently to disrupt tracking or any other mechanism, you need to destroy their drones, which they can launch another flight of, etc.
In order to balance these ships more, would it be possible to make Damps affect Drone Control Range, ie the control ship needs to be closer to the target, just like Damps on a turret ship. This creates the opportunity for an enemy to force the droneboat into engagement range, or to disengage.
Likewise, having tracking disruptors affect Omni Tracking Links would mean that the entire weapon system had reduced tracking, making the choice of drones for differing engagements more important than drop sentries with multiple tracking links/enhancers to boost it enough.
Lastly, and more controversially, remove Aggressive mode from drones, make people lock and fire them each time, so that damps have a real effect on droneboats, and also force considerations on whether it is better to assist all the drones to one guy who can be damped, or to assist to multiple, or make everyone fight themselves and present many targets.
These Ewar types, would force more interesting combat choices, and ensure that Ishtars are more engageable than they currently are.
Let the roars of fury flow
The only thing worse than Ishtars online is ECM online. |
Glendon Eto
Parallax Shift
The Periphery
0
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Posted - 2014.11.22 06:34:25 -
[26] - Quote
Problem could be solved with three minor changes.
1. Make Sentries 50mb bandwidth
2. Give Battleships max 250mb bandwidth
3. Keep Cruisers to a max of 125
Ishtars could use sentries, but only 2
Battleships could use 5
Problem solved with no nerf to sentry mechanics or the drones themselves.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions
Poopstain Removal Team
464
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Posted - 2014.11.22 06:53:56 -
[27] - Quote
Luwc wrote:Remove Sentries from the Game.
Problem Solved.
Luwc, whatya doin'??
The sentence goes, remove sentries from Ishtars.
You're welcome!
signature
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
780
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Posted - 2014.11.22 08:14:33 -
[28] - Quote
I'd be happy with ishtar bandwidth dropping to 100 and heavies dropping to 20 bandwidth each. This would top out an ishtars delloyed sentries at the same as the myrm leaving the Eos and Domi as the ships that can deploy 5 sentries in the gallente lineup. Problem here is does tjis have knock on effects with other hulls now being able to launch 5 heavies where they couldn't before... |
The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective
Illusion of Solitude
87
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Posted - 2014.11.22 10:50:34 -
[29] - Quote
Came in here to "not" like this and left pleasantly +1 surprised! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
780
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 17:22:16 -
[30] - Quote
The Hamilton wrote:Came in here to "not" like this and left pleasantly +1 surprised!
That's what the last group of exotic dancers i saved said too... |
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