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Wolfgang Jager Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.08.30 13:24:00 - [1] The limit on bookmark copying is a terrible idea. The primary effect of this is going to be drawing yet another solid line between veteran players and thos just starting out. The differance between using a good set of instas in low sec/0.0 and not having them is quite simply life and death. With a proper set requiring over 100 BMs per constellation this will make it functionally impossible for newer players to get these sets except by the immensely tedious method of making them for themselves. (Something which is very difficult in contested territory) Secondly, the inability to copy large "travel" sets will act as yet another disincentive to player mobility. The inability to copy a bookmark set from a sale or friend easily will be yet another barrier to relocating across empire space. While I agree that bookmarks have some serious problems, this is a pathetic half-baked idea to "fix" them that doesn't address most of the problems and just seeks to reduce server load from them and sweep the problem under the rug.
FileCop AI Amarr Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:01:00 - [2] agree completely FileCop AI of MASS
omega2 Gallente Jion Keanturi iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:44:00 - [3] i love the idea couse then nobody can copy 100 bm's in fleet battle to create lag like bob and fix did and less bm's will be copied so less lag
Sprobe Grga	Posted - 2006.08.30 19:18:00 - [4] Horrid idea, fully agree. Ther ehave to be found other countermeasures for exploiting BM copying like in fleet battles... but insta jump BMs are vital for the overall EVE gameplay. And even it makes no sense of limiting them. Who came up with that thoguht?
Sovereign533 Caldari 133rd Ghost Wing R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.31 01:56:00 - [5] Originally by: omega2 i love the idea couse then nobody can copy 100 bm's in fleet battle to create lag like bob and fix did and less bm's will be copied so less lag o/ omega, how you doing? bck to topic... copying bookmarks, a pain in the asser now... but it does create a lot of hardware... if a lot of ppl would do this in Jita, then entire Jita would crash, and will take down the rest of TQ :P copying bm's is baaaaad... but not copying them is even worse... making it client side? WHOAH!!! don't do this :P what if your hard disk crashes, and you cannot retrieve your eve client... all bookmarks lost? have to buy them again? and how would you send them? out-of-game? :P e-mail them, in stead of escrow... well, somehow i think the ISP's won't like it if you do this... and not to mention the client lag you would get with 15k of bookmarks... :P
AusSnake Gallente Thundercats	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:37:00 - [6] Edited by: AusSnake on 31/08/2006 02:38:22 Hmmm I think this is the start of the Down Fall of EVE New Players are going to be so disadvantaged this will also limit wars as who can take a 200 person fleet into enemy space with no BM's when the Enemy has then and will be able to out fly you at every system CCP you must think before you do .........
Shaikar Amarr	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:08:00 - [7] Why does limiting the number of BM's you can copy in one go make it "unpossible!" to copy bookmarks? Why can't you just copy your bookmarks in groups of 5 (or whatever is the limit now)?
Magnum III Journey On Squad	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:39:00 - [8] Edited by: Magnum III on 31/08/2006 03:44:34 I use about a total of about 40 BM's between 4 alts and main. I travel long distance with out them, maybe just one at the end or whatever. I only have about 1mil skill points on my main, you people who need so many books marks have some sort of a problem anyways. oh yeah, I have played a total of about 5 months online and in the game playing. So I am considered a n00b in a way and so only I think you looooong time player need mare book marks then me at any one time. In fact I erased some old ones and got about 10 of them now all together. book marks to warp out fast, give me a brake. I use the scanner and it's fun to get passed them ones who feel a need to kill me anyways, and with out no stinking warp gate book marks either.
Cazad	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:33:00 - [9] I'd say.. Make ALL bookmarks temporary, bookmarks automaticly deletes after 2hours or something.. I mean, the game wasnt made so you should Insta Jump to the gates, it was made so you end up 15km away from the gates so the PvP part of the game would be more common, and transporting would require a team of fighters for protection. With 2hour bookmarks, you can bookmark a area and get back to the same location for loot etc, but it will be removed after a while. Just a thought, I also have gate bookmarks and indeed they save lives.. But that way it would surley make things more fun as well. Since now a person with insta bookmarks, is rather impossible to catch. // Cazad, Sweden
Manfred Sideous Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:54:00 - [10] Originally by: omega2 i love the idea couse then nobody can copy 100 bm's in fleet battle to create lag like bob and fix did and less bm's will be copied so less lag You got your facts waythefuxdup. No member of FIX did anything like that . And I can tell you if someone in FIX was found doing it they would get a foot to their Arse straight back to empire. Sorry I know this was off-topic but I dont like my allainces name being falssley accused of lame arse tactics. People who use these tactics should be branded as losers and hunted by all of Eve till they leave the game. The bookmark thing is kinda dumb IMO but considering I just spent 500 mil to buy almost every 0.0 region it no biggy to me. Just means lots more ganks to be had in the future.
Jabbs	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:42:00 - [11] Originally by: Cazad I'd say.. Make ALL bookmarks temporary, bookmarks automaticly deletes after 2hours or something.. I mean, the game wasnt made so you should Insta Jump to the gates, it was made so you end up 15km away from the gates so the PvP part of the game would be more common, and transporting would require a team of fighters for protection. With 2hour bookmarks, you can bookmark a area and get back to the same location for loot etc, but it will be removed after a while. Just a thought, I also have gate bookmarks and indeed they save lives.. But that way it would surley make things more fun as well. Since now a person with insta bookmarks, is rather impossible to catch. // Cazad, Sweden You are forgetting that BM's are used for other things as well. Safe spots, cans, etc.
Evil Incarnate	Posted - 2006.08.31 15:44:00 - [12] You can thank the AAA allaince for this BM change. They are the ones that used it on purpose to create lag.
Sovereign533 Caldari 133rd Ghost Wing R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.01 02:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Evil Incarnate You can thank the AAA allaince for this BM change. They are the ones that used it on purpose to create lag. i flew with these guys before i joined RISE... and i know these guys... they wouldn't do that... anyway... lets not smack in this topic... lets do that in the alliance discussion forum or something... leave this smack free... anyway... we can't rule out the bm's... i have some can's in space at a safespot... if i would lose these bookmarks, i would lose these can's... and i wouldnt like this... also the need for insta's is high in 0.0 and other low sec. it's all about staying out of danger... you don't want your expensive Freighter destroyed because your slowboating to the gate at 80ms? and not to mention the expensive stuff inside it...
Mik Nostrebor Minmatar ORKS	Posted - 2006.09.01 05:24:00 - [14] That's something that the anti-insta mob forget. If insta's are removed then trade will crawl to a halt and prices for everything will sky-rocket in low sec and 0.0. After all the cost of shipping goods to, and minerals from 0.0 would be huge given the massive increase in blown up haulers and freighters plus the loss of cargo from it. Eve would change massively and force a large migration back to high-sec and/or out of the game. As it is this bm copying nerf will have an effect on prices as the flow of new haulers and traders slows down due to the reduction in available bm sets. Also, as someone else pointed out, the flow of newer corps and players migrating out to 0.0 will slow down and the normal attrition of olders players leaving Eve will generally lower 0.0 population over the new few months. Should be interesting to see how that works out. Mik AUSSIE AND KIWI EVE Fansite
Cazad	Posted - 2006.09.01 07:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Jabbs Originally by: Cazad I'd say.. Make ALL bookmarks temporary, bookmarks automaticly deletes after 2hours or something.. I mean, the game wasnt made so you should Insta Jump to the gates, it was made so you end up 15km away from the gates so the PvP part of the game would be more common, and transporting would require a team of fighters for protection. With 2hour bookmarks, you can bookmark a area and get back to the same location for loot etc, but it will be removed after a while. Just a thought, I also have gate bookmarks and indeed they save lives.. But that way it would surley make things more fun as well. Since now a person with insta bookmarks, is rather impossible to catch. // Cazad, Sweden You are forgetting that BM's are used for other things as well. Safe spots, cans, etc. 2 hours, and your cans are gone anyways.. As for bookmarks, it would be more fair of people had to make their "Safe spot bookmarks" once they enter a system. As for now, some people have safe spots that cannot be reached by sending Probes wich is what they are there for.. But hey, what's the point in discussing this really? I mean, it's not like it would happen anyhow
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.01 07:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Wolfgang Jager Secondly, the inability to copy large "travel" sets will act as yet another disincentive to player mobility. The inability to copy a bookmark set from a sale or friend easily will be yet another barrier to relocating across empire space. Despite popular belief, the changes will not prevent the copying of BMs. It just means you actually have to put some time into it now rather than just setting them copying and going afk. If BM's are the "can't to without" things people are saying they are, then that effort is fully justifiable. After all, once they're copied, you have that BM set for all eternity (or at least until BM's get properly nerfed). Prices from BM sellers will rise, but I also forsee them moving to a more refined service, such as constellation sets, or specific pipes, rather than just spamming entire region's worth of BM's. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.01 08:26:00 - [17] The thing I find interesting is that theres a setting to set your default warp range to the nearest meter (or maybe km, I forget) but this range must be within 15 and 100km. Why is this? If we can choose to warp to 50 or 51km, why can't we choose to warp at 1km? I know, I know, it would make travel far too simple, but the way it is now is un-realistic. Maybe have all warps come out at a randomly generated distance between 5 and 15km? Perhaps limit BM's to not be made within 50km of a gate? CCP has stated that they don't like BM's and they are not intended gameplay, but tbh they are the most useful asset to a 0.0 player following local chat. If you don't have BM's you die, plain and simple. P.S. I hate people who put BM's in their hold to lag their can when they die, they should all be banned. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Trigger64	Posted - 2006.09.01 18:39:00 - [18] /me puts on a fire resistant suit and activates his thermal resists Well actually I like the idea. What [most of] you people don't realize is how CPU hungry the BM's really are. I assume that CCP is MS-SQL as their database, and what I don't think people realize is that every time you copy a BM that BM has to be queried from the database, stored in memory, a new one is created and added to the DB. Every book mark that needs to be copied, needs to un a seperate "SELECT * from Bookmarks WHERE $ID = "#############" (or how every they catalog them) query. a "INSERT INTO Bookmarks WHERE $user = "your_user_name" and then a loop to go back to the selection query. What really happens is that the BM's are not actually shown on your screen until the entire loop has completed. So if you've got 500 bookmarks to copy, you have to wait until the select -> insert new (duplicate) query has been run. Which is why it's faster to copy small sets of BM's than the large ones, because you'd only have to wait for 10 or so to copy. Don't forget that each query that is run into the DB requires CPU, because they're all seperate processes. Now multiply your 500 BM query by say... 2,000 on a busy day to cover the 1/10 of the server that might be copying bookmarks. thats 1,000,000 processes. Anyone who doesn't see that as a problem is either an idiot or has never had their computer lock up because they tried to do too much at once. The differance between CCP's servers and your home computer is the servers enter a failsafe mode when they reach a pre-determined thresh hold on CPU use. At which point they probably start trimming back non vital processes (entrances into congested systems anyone?) and if that fails, the hampster has permission to take a water break. So please. Don't yell at CCP because you can't crash their servers in-advertantly anymore.. Just plan accordingly! Remember that EVERYTHING that exists in the game is part of a table somewhere in their massive database. So when you wonder why it takes so dang long for your corp hanger to open. It's because everything in there has to be called from the database. Same reason for BM's not showing in the corp hanger or your hanger or in the cans. They have to complete the Select and (for you PHP people) echo loop(s) COMPLETELY before they are displayed. That said I wouldn't mind the max BM copy ammount being bumped to 10 or 25
Akita T Caldari Session9	Posted - 2006.09.01 19:09:00 - [19] Actually, I wouldn't mind being able to only copy ONE bookmark at a time. They're planning to replace them anyway... __ Always question everything. Including yourself.
Caedicus	Posted - 2006.09.01 21:04:00 - [20] The five bookmark limitation is not a terrible idea for the following reasons: - Things are going to change. It's not going to be permanant fix to the insta problem - Everyone can still have as many BM's as they want - It addresses lag issues Yes it's a cheap fix that only addresses the symptoms and not the root of the problem. But that's only what it's meant to be, CCP has stated that they will implement something that will eventually replace bookmarks, or at least reduce the necessasity of them. I've only been playing eve for a month and a half, and I have no problem with the copy limit. I can still still use instas i have and make new ones to places I i know I will travel frequently. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Ghandi
Max Hardcase	Posted - 2006.09.01 22:28:00 - [21] I'd like to know what your definition of "the insta problem" is ? ---------------------------------------------- Max Hardcase > yawn-o-rama Max Hardcase > is this typical of RA warfare ? FreaKsh0 > yes boredom fitted in all their high slots
Arushia TEK Inc. R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.02 02:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Cazad 2 hours, and your cans are gone anyways.. Secure cans? The kind that stick around for years if anchored? The fix/feature i'd most like to see on BMs is to have corp BMs, letting all members of corp use its shared BMs, rather than havign to copy out the BMs to each member.
Plekto	Posted - 2006.09.02 05:52:00 - [23] How about this: - All bookmarks are kept in a seperate folder/file. Make it easy to access, so that peolpe can give copies of their bookmarks to other corp menbers/etc OFFLINE. Obviously it would have to be encrypted or something simmilar, but taking the copying offline would solve many problems.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.09.02 09:50:00 - [24] I kinda like this change. Maybe it will cause people to get only the BMs they really need now, instead of full sets for all regions of which 90% are never ever used by the player, but do clog up the server. I have been playing a year now and never had to copy more than maybe 20 BMs at a time and NEVER EVER found a need for a stupid full region BM set. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Wolfgang Jager Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.09.03 04:32:00 - [25] You're right - even five at a time it will be possible to copy large numbers of bookmarks. Which makes this change even more of a complete waste of code - not less. The only "problem" with bookmarks is the server drain from copying them and DB space they take up....so fix the problem that makes them essential! All they would have to do is add a "warp distance override" which let you manually set the warp to distance to 0km for stations/gates. (I'm not even really opposed to making this need a skill or module to use) This would have little to no effect on piracy or warfare - the newbs/idiots would still forget to use it/screw it up whatever...and everyone with a clue could only be caught on the outbound side - exactly like it is now. It couldn't be used for long distance AFK travel since it would have to be set each time...and suddenly all the gtg insta sets would be worthless, forgotten and deleted - problem solved, server usage down, database space freed up. And all the other uses for BMs would be untouched.
MMoroz	Posted - 2006.09.03 11:16:00 - [26] Originally by: Trigger64 /me puts on a fire resistant suit and activates his thermal resists Well actually I like the idea. What [most of] you people don't realize is how CPU hungry the BM's really are. I assume that CCP is MS-SQL as their database, and what I don't think people realize is that every time you copy a BM that BM has to be queried from the database, stored in memory, a new one is created and added to the DB. Every book mark that needs to be copied, needs to un a seperate "SELECT * from Bookmarks WHERE $ID = "#############" (or how every they catalog them) query. a "INSERT INTO Bookmarks WHERE $user = "your_user_name" and then a loop to go back to the selection query. What really happens is that the BM's are not actually shown on your screen until the entire loop has completed. So if you've got 500 bookmarks to copy, you have to wait until the select -> insert new (duplicate) query has been run. Which is why it's faster to copy small sets of BM's than the large ones, because you'd only have to wait for 10 or so to copy. Don't forget that each query that is run into the DB requires CPU, because they're all seperate processes. Now multiply your 500 BM query by say... 2,000 on a busy day to cover the 1/10 of the server that might be copying bookmarks. thats 1,000,000 processes. Anyone who doesn't see that as a problem is either an idiot or has never had their computer lock up because they tried to do too much at once. The differance between CCP's servers and your home computer is the servers enter a failsafe mode when they reach a pre-determined thresh hold on CPU use. At which point they probably start trimming back non vital processes (entrances into congested systems anyone?) and if that fails, the hampster has permission to take a water break. So please. Don't yell at CCP because you can't crash their servers in-advertantly anymore.. Just plan accordingly! Remember that EVERYTHING that exists in the game is part of a table somewhere in their massive database. So when you wonder why it takes so dang long for your corp hanger to open. It's because everything in there has to be called from the database. Same reason for BM's not showing in the corp hanger or your hanger or in the cans. They have to complete the Select and (for you PHP people) echo loop(s) COMPLETELY before they are displayed. That said I wouldn't mind the max BM copy ammount being bumped to 10 or 25 Ever heard about something called "batch". It really looks like every bm is coppied in different query and this is just bad coding. They have problems with "power" but still don`t care to waste it - and we are talking about things that you can fix in few minutes like: a) bm copying b) why refresh whole market when i open it, it would be much better to just add button( "Refresh"\|"Load: whatever ) and when i choose thing i am interested in( or even a group of things ) i click it and orders are loaded - it is just one query. Btw very often you are not even interested in buying, you just want to check some stats.
Horm Ohnal	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:35:00 - [27] I HAVE THE SOLUTION CCP... If you think that BM copying is a false economy (it isn't - people pay for information in the real world too everyday), or that copying BM's is placing too much strain on the system, instead of doing something silly like limiting the number you can copy at a time (which as we're seeing on the servers tonight will just cause panic copying in massive amounts), why not introduce a new skill, or series of skills to make BM's less important in the game? Warp Exit Accuracy Rank (8) -> 15% closer to target warp per level. Must have Navigation V, Warp Drive Operation V and Jump Drive Operation III or something... makes it a long train, but possible, and I'm sure a lot of people would simply go for the training route rather than forking out millions of ISK (possibly billions now that CCP is limiting the copying - prices will jump) for bookmark sets. Less lag, no "false" economy, and for the majority of players, there will still be travel between warp exit and the gates... come on CCP... surely someone there has thought about something like this already?
kliop	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:41:00 - [28] Edited by: kliop on 03/09/2006 21:42:33 y not make the bookmarks work the way the icons in desktop work? i mean u press warp to the bm ---->insta to station blah blah blah and it actually gives a command to go and fing the bm from the database and not go look at the bm u copied but at the original bm! that way when creating a bm u will actually just create a icon far smaller then the actual thing just a command to go at this place of the database...and something would need to be added at the database only when u create a new bm not when u copy one...and anyway there already is smething added with each new bm at the current system...so it would just reduce lag..and it would make copying much easier! or am i mistaken somewhere?
Hatch	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:50:00 - [29] Edited by: Hatch on 04/09/2006 00:52:09 not to mention that it is KILLING EVE ATM. all the copiers are doing nothing but that, which is killing game play for everyone. Personally, i like the insta's. I don't mind the lag associated with creating them. Which btw, was artificially created by CCP when it gave the function a lower priority on the database. limiting the copying will have virtually no effect on the number of bm's. it will however increase the number of macro users who are trying to get a leg up on the competition by having a second app copy sets of 5 bm's automatically and the price will just go up. So in short, BAD MOVE BY CCP as it has been stated so many times before, just make it a skill that you have to learn to get close enough to a gate, that you don't have to have millions of bm's to get from one system to your destination. MAKE IT A SKILL! It has been suggested thousands of times before.
Mik Nostrebor Minmatar ORKS	Posted - 2006.09.04 01:19:00 - [30] Originally by: Hatch MAKE IT A SKILL! It has been suggested thousands of times before. That suggestion along with "store bookmarks locally and not on the server" as well as "allow warp to 0km" Arguments against go like: Skill: oh yeah, another way to make sure noobs are the target of evil ganking pirates. Besides, this would make gate camps history and pirating go away completely from Eve!! ** Note that in effect it is already this way as noobs take a while to figure out how to make BM's and to use the 15km-0km exploit. Also if they buy sets they must be older as sets cost way more than a noob can afford. So I think that skill would probably work. Some sort of skill under Navigation. Warp Drive Probability and Advanced Warp Drive Theory or something. Local bookmarks: But players will **** the local bm and then they can create a bm anywhere in the system, even places they have never been to before.* ** My opionion is that there are ways to encrypt or otherwise lock a local bm. Another problem is that trading them would be have to be via Out Of Game methods making it harder to trust the money would come in. Still no worse than buying sets from escrow now in regards to trust. Also, being easy to copy would mean that the price would drop and availability would rise. Allow warp to 0: That would be the death of piratting!!! NOOOO *** Well it would certainly cut down the viability of gate camping. There are other forms of piracy. Still, maybe a solution could be to make a gate jammable... or maybe a mod to create a field anomoly like warp scrampbling or some other such tackling tool. AUSSIE AND KIWI EVE Fansite

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