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Wolfgang Jager
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.08.30 13:24:00 -
[1]
The limit on bookmark copying is a terrible idea. The primary effect of this is going to be drawing yet another solid line between veteran players and thos just starting out. The differance between using a good set of instas in low sec/0.0 and not having them is quite simply life and death. With a proper set requiring over 100 BMs per constellation this will make it functionally impossible for newer players to get these sets except by the immensely tedious method of making them for themselves. (Something which is very difficult in contested territory)
Secondly, the inability to copy large "travel" sets will act as yet another disincentive to player mobility. The inability to copy a bookmark set from a sale or friend easily will be yet another barrier to relocating across empire space.
While I agree that bookmarks have some serious problems, this is a pathetic half-baked idea to "fix" them that doesn't address most of the problems and just seeks to reduce server load from them and sweep the problem under the rug.
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FileCop AI
Amarr
Rampage Eternal
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Posted - 2006.08.30 18:01:00 -
[2]
agree completely
FileCop AI of MASS |
omega2
Gallente
Jion Keanturi
iPOD Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.30 18:44:00 -
[3]
i love the idea
couse then nobody can copy 100 bm's in fleet battle to create lag like bob and fix did
and less bm's will be copied so less lag
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Sprobe Grga
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Posted - 2006.08.30 19:18:00 -
[4]
Horrid idea, fully agree. Ther ehave to be found other countermeasures for exploiting BM copying like in fleet battles... but insta jump BMs are vital for the overall EVE gameplay. And even it makes no sense of limiting them. Who came up with that thoguht?
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Sovereign533
Caldari
133rd Ghost Wing
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.31 01:56:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: omega2
i love the idea
couse then nobody can copy 100 bm's in fleet battle to create lag like bob and fix did
and less bm's will be copied so less lag
o/ omega, how you doing?
bck to topic... copying bookmarks, a pain in the asser now...
but it does create a lot of hardware... if a lot of ppl would do this in Jita, then entire Jita would crash, and will take down the rest of TQ :P
copying bm's is baaaaad... but not copying them is even worse...
making it client side? WHOAH!!! don't do this :P what if your hard disk crashes, and you cannot retrieve your eve client... all bookmarks lost? have to buy them again? and how would you send them? out-of-game? :P e-mail them, in stead of escrow... well, somehow i think the ISP's won't like it if you do this... and not to mention the client lag you would get with 15k of bookmarks... :P
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AusSnake
Gallente
Thundercats
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Posted - 2006.08.31 02:37:00 -
[6]
Edited by: AusSnake on 31/08/2006 02:38:22
Hmmm I think this is the start of the Down Fall of EVE
New Players are going to be so disadvantaged
this will also limit wars as who can take a 200 person fleet into enemy space with no BM's when the Enemy has then and will be able to out fly you at every system
CCP you must think before you do .........
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Shaikar
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.31 03:08:00 -
[7]
Why does limiting the number of BM's you can copy in one go make it "unpossible!" to copy bookmarks?
Why can't you just copy your bookmarks in groups of 5 (or whatever is the limit now)?
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Magnum III
Journey On Squad
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Posted - 2006.08.31 03:39:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Magnum III on 31/08/2006 03:44:34
I use about a total of about 40 BM's between 4 alts and main.
I travel long distance with out them, maybe just one at the end or whatever.
I only have about 1mil skill points on my main, you people who need so many books marks have some sort of a problem anyways.
oh yeah, I have played a total of about 5 months online and in the game playing. So I am considered a n00b in a way and so only I think you looooong time player need mare book marks then me at any one time. In fact I erased some old ones and got about 10 of them now all together.
book marks to warp out fast, give me a brake. I use the scanner and it's fun to get passed them ones who feel a need to kill me anyways, and with out no stinking warp gate book marks either.
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Cazad
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Posted - 2006.08.31 07:33:00 -
[9]
I'd say.. Make ALL bookmarks temporary, bookmarks automaticly deletes after 2hours or something.. I mean, the game wasnt made so you should Insta Jump to the gates, it was made so you end up 15km away from the gates so the PvP part of the game would be more common, and transporting would require a team of fighters for protection. With 2hour bookmarks, you can bookmark a area and get back to the same location for loot etc, but it will be removed after a while.
Just a thought, I also have gate bookmarks and indeed they save lives..
But that way it would surley make things more fun as well. Since now a person with insta bookmarks, is rather impossible to catch.
// Cazad, Sweden
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Manfred Sideous
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.31 07:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: omega2
i love the idea
couse then nobody can copy 100 bm's in fleet battle to create lag like bob and fix did
and less bm's will be copied so less lag
You got your facts waythefuxdup. No member of FIX did anything like that . And I can tell you if someone in FIX was found doing it they would get a foot to their Arse straight back to empire.
Sorry I know this was off-topic but I dont like my allainces name being falssley accused of lame arse tactics. People who use these tactics should be branded as losers and hunted by all of Eve till they leave the game.
The bookmark thing is kinda dumb IMO but considering I just spent 500 mil to buy almost every 0.0 region it no biggy to me. Just means lots more ganks to be had in the future.
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Jabbs
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Posted - 2006.08.31 08:42:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cazad
I'd say.. Make ALL bookmarks temporary, bookmarks automaticly deletes after 2hours or something.. I mean, the game wasnt made so you should Insta Jump to the gates, it was made so you end up 15km away from the gates so the PvP part of the game would be more common, and transporting would require a team of fighters for protection. With 2hour bookmarks, you can bookmark a area and get back to the same location for loot etc, but it will be removed after a while.
Just a thought, I also have gate bookmarks and indeed they save lives..
But that way it would surley make things more fun as well. Since now a person with insta bookmarks, is rather impossible to catch.
// Cazad, Sweden
You are forgetting that BM's are used for other things as well. Safe spots, cans, etc.
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Evil Incarnate
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Posted - 2006.08.31 15:44:00 -
[12]
You can thank the AAA allaince for this BM change. They are the ones that used it on purpose to create lag. |
Sovereign533
Caldari
133rd Ghost Wing
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.09.01 02:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Evil Incarnate
You can thank the AAA allaince for this BM change. They are the ones that used it on purpose to create lag.
i flew with these guys before i joined RISE... and i know these guys... they wouldn't do that... anyway... lets not smack in this topic... lets do that in the alliance discussion forum or something... leave this smack free...
anyway... we can't rule out the bm's... i have some can's in space at a safespot... if i would lose these bookmarks, i would lose these can's... and i wouldnt like this...
also the need for insta's is high in 0.0 and other low sec. it's all about staying out of danger... you don't want your expensive Freighter destroyed because your slowboating to the gate at 80ms? and not to mention the expensive stuff inside it...
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Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar
ORKS
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Posted - 2006.09.01 05:24:00 -
[14]
That's something that the anti-insta mob forget. If insta's are removed then trade will crawl to a halt and prices for everything will sky-rocket in low sec and 0.0. After all the cost of shipping goods to, and minerals from 0.0 would be huge given the massive increase in blown up haulers and freighters plus the loss of cargo from it.
Eve would change massively and force a large migration back to high-sec and/or out of the game.
As it is this bm copying nerf will have an effect on prices as the flow of new haulers and traders slows down due to the reduction in available bm sets.
Also, as someone else pointed out, the flow of newer corps and players migrating out to 0.0 will slow down and the normal attrition of olders players leaving Eve will generally lower 0.0 population over the new few months. Should be interesting to see how that works out.
Mik
AUSSIE AND KIWI EVE Fansite |
Cazad
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Posted - 2006.09.01 07:08:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jabbs
Originally by: Cazad
I'd say.. Make ALL bookmarks temporary, bookmarks automaticly deletes after 2hours or something.. I mean, the game wasnt made so you should Insta Jump to the gates, it was made so you end up 15km away from the gates so the PvP part of the game would be more common, and transporting would require a team of fighters for protection. With 2hour bookmarks, you can bookmark a area and get back to the same location for loot etc, but it will be removed after a while.
Just a thought, I also have gate bookmarks and indeed they save lives..
But that way it would surley make things more fun as well. Since now a person with insta bookmarks, is rather impossible to catch.
// Cazad, Sweden
You are forgetting that BM's are used for other things as well. Safe spots, cans, etc.
2 hours, and your cans are gone anyways.. As for bookmarks, it would be more fair of people had to make their "Safe spot bookmarks" once they enter a system. As for now, some people have safe spots that cannot be reached by sending Probes wich is what they are there for..
But hey, what's the point in discussing this really? I mean, it's not like it would happen anyhow 
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Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.09.01 07:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Wolfgang Jager
Secondly, the inability to copy large "travel" sets will act as yet another disincentive to player mobility. The inability to copy a bookmark set from a sale or friend easily will be yet another barrier to relocating across empire space.
Despite popular belief, the changes will not prevent the copying of BMs. It just means you actually have to put some time into it now rather than just setting them copying and going afk. If BM's are the "can't to without" things people are saying they are, then that effort is fully justifiable. After all, once they're copied, you have that BM set for all eternity (or at least until BM's get properly nerfed).
Prices from BM sellers will rise, but I also forsee them moving to a more refined service, such as constellation sets, or specific pipes, rather than just spamming entire region's worth of BM's.
-------
There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:26:00 -
[17]
The thing I find interesting is that theres a setting to set your default warp range to the nearest meter (or maybe km, I forget) but this range must be within 15 and 100km. Why is this? If we can choose to warp to 50 or 51km, why can't we choose to warp at 1km? I know, I know, it would make travel far too simple, but the way it is now is un-realistic. Maybe have all warps come out at a randomly generated distance between 5 and 15km? Perhaps limit BM's to not be made within 50km of a gate? CCP has stated that they don't like BM's and they are not intended gameplay, but tbh they are the most useful asset to a 0.0 player following local chat. If you don't have BM's you die, plain and simple.
P.S. I hate people who put BM's in their hold to lag their can when they die, they should all be banned.
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior)
I kill people ingame too. |
Trigger64
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Posted - 2006.09.01 18:39:00 -
[18]
/me puts on a fire resistant suit and activates his thermal resists
Well actually I like the idea. What [most of] you people don't realize is how CPU hungry the BM's really are. I assume that CCP is MS-SQL as their database, and what I don't think people realize is that every time you copy a BM that BM has to be queried from the database, stored in memory, a new one is created and added to the DB.
Every book mark that needs to be copied, needs to un a seperate "SELECT * from Bookmarks WHERE $ID = "#############" (or how every they catalog them) query. a "INSERT INTO Bookmarks WHERE $user = "your_user_name" and then a loop to go back to the selection query.
What really happens is that the BM's are not actually shown on your screen until the entire loop has completed. So if you've got 500 bookmarks to copy, you have to wait until the select -> insert new (duplicate) query has been run.
Which is why it's faster to copy small sets of BM's than the large ones, because you'd only have to wait for 10 or so to copy.
Don't forget that each query that is run into the DB requires CPU, because they're all seperate processes. Now multiply your 500 BM query by say... 2,000 on a busy day to cover the 1/10 of the server that might be copying bookmarks. thats 1,000,000 processes. Anyone who doesn't see that as a problem is either an idiot or has never had their computer lock up because they tried to do too much at once.
The differance between CCP's servers and your home computer is the servers enter a failsafe mode when they reach a pre-determined thresh hold on CPU use. At which point they probably start trimming back non vital processes (entrances into congested systems anyone?) and if that fails, the hampster has permission to take a water break.
So please. Don't yell at CCP because you can't crash their servers in-advertantly anymore.. Just plan accordingly!
Remember that EVERYTHING that exists in the game is part of a table somewhere in their massive database. So when you wonder why it takes so dang long for your corp hanger to open. It's because everything in there has to be called from the database. Same reason for BM's not showing in the corp hanger or your hanger or in the cans. They have to complete the Select and (for you PHP people) echo loop(s) COMPLETELY before they are displayed.
That said I wouldn't mind the max BM copy ammount being bumped to 10 or 25 
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Akita T
Caldari
Session9
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Posted - 2006.09.01 19:09:00 -
[19]
Actually, I wouldn't mind being able to only copy ONE bookmark at a time.
They're planning to replace them anyway...
__
Always question everything. Including yourself. |
Caedicus
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:04:00 -
[20]
The five bookmark limitation is not a terrible idea for the following reasons:
- Things are going to change. It's not going to be permanant fix to the insta problem
- Everyone can still have as many BM's as they want
- It addresses lag issues
Yes it's a cheap fix that only addresses the symptoms and not the root of the problem. But that's only what it's meant to be, CCP has stated that they will implement something that will eventually replace bookmarks, or at least reduce the necessasity of them.
I've only been playing eve for a month and a half, and I have no problem with the copy limit. I can still still use instas i have and make new ones to places I i know I will travel frequently.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Ghandi |
Max Hardcase
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Posted - 2006.09.01 22:28:00 -
[21]
I'd like to know what your definition of "the insta problem" is ?
----------------------------------------------
Max Hardcase > yawn-o-rama
Max Hardcase > is this typical of RA warfare ?
FreaKsh0 > yes boredom fitted in all their high slots |
Arushia
TEK Inc.
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.09.02 02:15:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Cazad
2 hours, and your cans are gone anyways..
Secure cans? The kind that stick around for years if anchored?
The fix/feature i'd most like to see on BMs is to have corp BMs, letting all members of corp use its shared BMs, rather than havign to copy out the BMs to each member.
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Plekto
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Posted - 2006.09.02 05:52:00 -
[23]
How about this:
- All bookmarks are kept in a seperate folder/file. Make it easy to access, so that peolpe can give copies of their bookmarks to other corp menbers/etc OFFLINE.
Obviously it would have to be encrypted or something simmilar, but taking the copying offline would solve many problems.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.02 09:50:00 -
[24]
I kinda like this change. Maybe it will cause people to get only the BMs they really need now, instead of full sets for all regions of which 90% are never ever used by the player, but do clog up the server. I have been playing a year now and never had to copy more than maybe 20 BMs at a time and NEVER EVER found a need for a stupid full region BM set.
---------
ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Wolfgang Jager
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.09.03 04:32:00 -
[25]
You're right - even five at a time it will be possible to copy large numbers of bookmarks. Which makes this change even more of a complete waste of code - not less.
The only "problem" with bookmarks is the server drain from copying them and DB space they take up....so fix the problem that makes them essential!
All they would have to do is add a "warp distance override" which let you manually set the warp to distance to 0km for stations/gates. (I'm not even really opposed to making this need a skill or module to use)
This would have little to no effect on piracy or warfare - the newbs/idiots would still forget to use it/screw it up whatever...and everyone with a clue could only be caught on the outbound side - exactly like it is now.
It couldn't be used for long distance AFK travel since it would have to be set each time...and suddenly all the gtg insta sets would be worthless, forgotten and deleted - problem solved, server usage down, database space freed up. And all the other uses for BMs would be untouched.
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MMoroz
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Posted - 2006.09.03 11:16:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Trigger64
/me puts on a fire resistant suit and activates his thermal resists
Well actually I like the idea. What [most of] you people don't realize is how CPU hungry the BM's really are. I assume that CCP is MS-SQL as their database, and what I don't think people realize is that every time you copy a BM that BM has to be queried from the database, stored in memory, a new one is created and added to the DB.
Every book mark that needs to be copied, needs to un a seperate "SELECT * from Bookmarks WHERE $ID = "#############" (or how every they catalog them) query. a "INSERT INTO Bookmarks WHERE $user = "your_user_name" and then a loop to go back to the selection query.
What really happens is that the BM's are not actually shown on your screen until the entire loop has completed. So if you've got 500 bookmarks to copy, you have to wait until the select -> insert new (duplicate) query has been run.
Which is why it's faster to copy small sets of BM's than the large ones, because you'd only have to wait for 10 or so to copy.
Don't forget that each query that is run into the DB requires CPU, because they're all seperate processes. Now multiply your 500 BM query by say... 2,000 on a busy day to cover the 1/10 of the server that might be copying bookmarks. thats 1,000,000 processes. Anyone who doesn't see that as a problem is either an idiot or has never had their computer lock up because they tried to do too much at once.
The differance between CCP's servers and your home computer is the servers enter a failsafe mode when they reach a pre-determined thresh hold on CPU use. At which point they probably start trimming back non vital processes (entrances into congested systems anyone?) and if that fails, the hampster has permission to take a water break.
So please. Don't yell at CCP because you can't crash their servers in-advertantly anymore.. Just plan accordingly!
Remember that EVERYTHING that exists in the game is part of a table somewhere in their massive database. So when you wonder why it takes so dang long for your corp hanger to open. It's because everything in there has to be called from the database. Same reason for BM's not showing in the corp hanger or your hanger or in the cans. They have to complete the Select and (for you PHP people) echo loop(s) COMPLETELY before they are displayed.
That said I wouldn't mind the max BM copy ammount being bumped to 10 or 25
Ever heard about something called "batch". It really looks like every bm is coppied in different query and this is just bad coding. They have problems with "power" but still don`t care to waste it - and we are talking about things that you can fix in few minutes like:
a) bm copying
b) why refresh whole market when i open it, it would be much better to just add button( "Refresh"|"Load: whatever ) and when i choose thing i am interested in( or even a group of things ) i click it and orders are loaded - it is just one query. Btw very often you are not even interested in buying, you just want to check some stats.
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Horm Ohnal
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Posted - 2006.09.03 21:35:00 -
[27]
I HAVE THE SOLUTION CCP...
If you think that BM copying is a false economy (it isn't - people pay for information in the real world too everyday), or that copying BM's is placing too much strain on the system, instead of doing something silly like limiting the number you can copy at a time (which as we're seeing on the servers tonight will just cause panic copying in massive amounts), why not introduce a new skill, or series of skills to make BM's less important in the game?
Warp Exit Accuracy Rank (8) -> 15% closer to target warp per level. Must have Navigation V, Warp Drive Operation V and Jump Drive Operation III or something... makes it a long train, but possible, and I'm sure a lot of people would simply go for the training route rather than forking out millions of ISK (possibly billions now that CCP is limiting the copying - prices will jump) for bookmark sets.
Less lag, no "false" economy, and for the majority of players, there will still be travel between warp exit and the gates... come on CCP... surely someone there has thought about something like this already?
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kliop
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Posted - 2006.09.03 21:41:00 -
[28]
Edited by: kliop on 03/09/2006 21:42:33
y not make the bookmarks work the way the icons in desktop work? i mean u press warp to the bm ---->insta to station blah blah blah and it actually gives a command to go and fing the bm from the database and not go look at the bm u copied but at the original bm! that way when creating a bm u will actually just create a icon far smaller then the actual thing just a command to go at this place of the database...and something would need to be added at the database only when u create a new bm not when u copy one...and anyway there already is smething added with each new bm at the current system...so it would just reduce lag..and it would make copying much easier! or am i mistaken somewhere?
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Hatch
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Posted - 2006.09.04 00:50:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Hatch on 04/09/2006 00:52:09
not to mention that it is KILLING EVE ATM. all the copiers are doing nothing but that, which is killing game play for everyone. Personally, i like the insta's. I don't mind the lag associated with creating them. Which btw, was artificially created by CCP when it gave the function a lower priority on the database. limiting the copying will have virtually no effect on the number of bm's. it will however increase the number of macro users who are trying to get a leg up on the competition by having a second app copy sets of 5 bm's automatically and the price will just go up. So in short, BAD MOVE BY CCP
as it has been stated so many times before, just make it a skill that you have to learn to get close enough to a gate, that you don't have to have millions of bm's to get from one system to your destination. MAKE IT A SKILL! It has been suggested thousands of times before.
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Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar
ORKS
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Posted - 2006.09.04 01:19:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Hatch
MAKE IT A SKILL! It has been suggested thousands of times before.
That suggestion along with "store bookmarks locally and not on the server" as well as "allow warp to 0km"
Arguments against go like:
Skill: oh yeah, another way to make sure noobs are the target of evil ganking pirates. Besides, this would make gate camps history and pirating go away completely from Eve!!
** Note that in effect it is already this way as noobs take a while to figure out how to make BM's and to use the 15km-0km exploit. Also if they buy sets they must be older as sets cost way more than a noob can afford. So I think that skill would probably work. Some sort of skill under Navigation. Warp Drive Probability and Advanced Warp Drive Theory or something.
Local bookmarks: But players will ***** the local bm and then they can create a bm anywhere in the system, even places they have never been to before.
** My opionion is that there are ways to encrypt or otherwise lock a local bm. Another problem is that trading them would be have to be via Out Of Game methods making it harder to trust the money would come in. Still no worse than buying sets from escrow now in regards to trust. Also, being easy to copy would mean that the price would drop and availability would rise.
Allow warp to 0: That would be the death of piratting!!! NOOOO
*** Well it would certainly cut down the viability of gate camping. There are other forms of piracy. Still, maybe a solution could be to make a gate jammable... or maybe a mod to create a field anomoly like warp scrampbling or some other such tackling tool.
AUSSIE AND KIWI EVE Fansite |
Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2006.09.04 05:42:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
Originally by: Hatch
MAKE IT A SKILL! It has been suggested thousands of times before.
That suggestion along with "store bookmarks locally and not on the server" as well as "allow warp to 0km"
Arguments against go like:
Skill: oh yeah, another way to make sure noobs are the target of evil ganking pirates. Besides, this would make gate camps history and pirating go away completely from Eve!!
** Note that in effect it is already this way as noobs take a while to figure out how to make BM's and to use the 15km-0km exploit. Also if they buy sets they must be older as sets cost way more than a noob can afford. So I think that skill would probably work. Some sort of skill under Navigation. Warp Drive Probability and Advanced Warp Drive Theory or something.
Local bookmarks: But players will ***** the local bm and then they can create a bm anywhere in the system, even places they have never been to before.
** My opionion is that there are ways to encrypt or otherwise lock a local bm. Another problem is that trading them would be have to be via Out Of Game methods making it harder to trust the money would come in. Still no worse than buying sets from escrow now in regards to trust. Also, being easy to copy would mean that the price would drop and availability would rise.
Allow warp to 0: That would be the death of piratting!!! NOOOO
*** Well it would certainly cut down the viability of gate camping. There are other forms of piracy. Still, maybe a solution could be to make a gate jammable... or maybe a mod to create a field anomoly like warp scrampbling or some other such tackling tool.
It wouldn't kill pirating. You could still kill them before they warp away from an incoming gate. You can still stop them in 0.0 with bubbles. But I agree completely with your conslusion, warp to range should NOT be a skill.
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior)
I kill people ingame too. |
Faith Rose
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.04 08:02:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Horm Ohnal
I HAVE THE SOLUTION CCP...
If you think that BM copying is a false economy (it isn't - people pay for information in the real world too everyday), or that copying BM's is placing too much strain on the system, instead of doing something silly like limiting the number you can copy at a time (which as we're seeing on the servers tonight will just cause panic copying in massive amounts), why not introduce a new skill, or series of skills to make BM's less important in the game?
Warp Exit Accuracy Rank (8) -> 15% closer to target warp per level. Must have Navigation V, Warp Drive Operation V and Jump Drive Operation III or something... makes it a long train, but possible, and I'm sure a lot of people would simply go for the training route rather than forking out millions of ISK (possibly billions now that CCP is limiting the copying - prices will jump) for bookmark sets.
Less lag, no "false" economy, and for the majority of players, there will still be travel between warp exit and the gates... come on CCP... surely someone there has thought about something like this already?
I think you just hit it right on the head, turning bm travel efficency into skill's. But for those who live in .0 space the need to stop warp and have a safe spot would have to be added or the whole idea of replacing bm's would be for not.
===============================================
It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected. |
Spikum
Gallente
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.04 08:05:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Spikum on 04/09/2006 08:06:18
Remove Bookmakrs and make it impossible to create a bookmark within 150 km of a Station/stargate. Simple and good soloution. This will make 0.0 more dangerous.
Ad a Skillbonus for freighters like 2.5km Warp precision per level r whatsoever. Or they just use someone to gangwarp to....
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Rye
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Posted - 2006.09.04 11:05:00 -
[34]
I think going the skill route makes the most sense. If they're worried about how doing that would affect pirates, add in some random accuracy thing where it's possible you won't end up exactly where you intend all the time, or give alternate counter-acting skills like someone else suggested so that it's possible for pirates to have a (small) chance of interfering with someone's warp accuracy.
Bookmarks can still be useful in stuff like setting up safe spots, or having different areas in an asteroid belt to warp to and mine (insta-mining! :) ), or even going some way to helping with the upcoming "exploration" ideas in future expansions like CCP have mentioned.
The strength of EVE is largely in its skill-based approach... why not use that strength to resolve this issue instead of borking it so completely? To be honest, if CCP is suprised by the mass BM copying frenzy that occurred after their announcement, then somebody wasn't thinking through all the consequences of making such an announcement. At the very least, they could have just snuck it in and saved everyone the lag headache of the last few days.
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Skaarj IX
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Posted - 2006.09.04 11:15:00 -
[35]
the new limit on bookmarks is a great idea in my mind, keep it up CCP, this should reduce the lag
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Emiug
Caldari
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.04 11:22:00 -
[36]
they had the skillbook idea before...
if i remember alot of people whined about it :/
------------------------
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Miss Overlord
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2006.09.04 11:23:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Skaarj IX
the new limit on bookmarks is a great idea in my mind, keep it up CCP, this should reduce the lag
fully concur u can still copy a full region just means sitting there doing 5 at a time 100 tiems over until they are done in terms of putting them into new folders and once u get to the bottom of a window running out of space just means splitting regional ones into groups of 30 and numbering 1-13 for example - will kill the easy ISK in escrow BM selling anotehr good idea and reduce server lag nothing wrong there
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Lazuran
|
Posted - 2006.09.04 11:28:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
That's something that the anti-insta mob forget. If insta's are removed then trade will crawl to a halt and prices for everything will sky-rocket in low sec and 0.0. After all the cost of shipping goods to, and minerals from 0.0 would be huge given the massive increase in blown up haulers and freighters plus the loss of cargo from it.
Shipping minerals is one thing a freighter is good for, but stuff with more value per m¦ is usually shipped in carriers.
Empire<=>0.0 runs with freighters are already too dangerous and annoying, since you need a large escort. Many people use mineral compression techniques and use carriers for hauling low-end minerals to 0.0 as well.
"The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana |
Byro
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Posted - 2006.09.04 12:10:00 -
[39]
I don't know about you guys, but...
wouldn't it be easier on everyone if Bookmarks were stored CLIENT SIDE?????
For christs sake why in the hell would anyone want to jam the crap out of their servers by storing non volatile player data ( BM's ) by making them server side only? Good grief people, get a clue and make them a part of the individual players game files stored locally on their hard drives. This would make nearly 100 percent of BM copying to be done via friends filesharing, email, etc... and not 1 bit of it would be chewing up the badly needed bandwidth on servers? Don't you think the servers already have enough work to do?
Just my 2 cents worth. Besides. any custom settings, macros (when allowed in an mmorpg) are stored locally for every single game I have ever played online, EXCEPT Eve.
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Luc Boye
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.04 18:42:00 -
[40]
First of all, there shouldn't be any bookmarks in the sense they are used today (server side and all). You should be able to warp to x/y/z coordinates and accuracy of that warp could be determined by skills, proximity of celestial object, etc. So the bookmark you have is the local copy of those coordinates, not some object in a database somewhere in London.
Yes, I am aware of possible exploits by busting safespots, or making super safes, but both of that you can do today as well, and you could make it that the accuracy of the warp greatly decreases if you warp 100 au into open space (like you miss by 20 au). Or something. Im sure devs would find a way to nerf it, and have solution that is not server-intensive.
Secondly, you should not be able to fly/warp thru celestial objects. Which means like in any good SF book/movie, you'd have to calculate your warps/jumps carefuly. Enter some stupid coordinates and whosh your fleet straight into the sun and you all die and get podded in a jiffy. Now, wouldn't that be fun? "Zomg Dianabolic warped us into sun, the whole bob fleet died in 10 seconds".
You shouldn't be able to shoot thru stations, asteroids, whatever, which will make things more interesting, and the celestial objects would be more then just fancy 3d wallpaper.
Just my 2c.
---
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Takigama
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.04 19:12:00 -
[41]
The idea I had, and I still think its a good one and makes it very "game worthy" is making your warp-in distance based on standings and ownership.
Leave bookmarks in game, but add the following:
1) as standings increase with the sovreign owner of the system, the closer you can warp in the "warp to" list.
2) have unclaimed 0.0 as "warp to 0" (or warp to 2, whatever), you still have to get out the other side of the gate and theres nothing there to stop you anyway.
3) For empire locations have a concord responce the same as pirating for people using bookmarks (or "disobeying" their warp-in distance).
Its not a perfect idea, but its something to work on. It doesnt take those bm's out of game (we do need safe spots, and various other things anyway), but it would destroy a huge set of them in the short term.
I remember someone suggesting ccp were going to implement a "decay" system for bm's, and i seriously cant believe they'd consider that, its just so rediculous really. It makes no sence in game (data just doesnt disappear off your hd in your computer now, does it? you know what i mean).
as for the 5-at-a-time. how many of you have jumped on singularity and actually taken a look at it? (i have btw, it adds to the tedium in a big way, but not the way you expect).
Is this going to kill newbies? Hell no... its not the newbies out there that are doing the full region g2g insta copying anyway. i think alot of you have missed one important point, its COPYING thats nerfed. How many of you have realised this means from p&p into a can, NOT the other way around. You can still take 500 bm's (that your friend gave you, or you bought off escrow) and drag them into a p&p folder without issue.
Personally, i think its not a great idea, but it wasnt put in to solve the bookmark crisis that people think ccp are trying to solve either.
as for local bm's... WOOHOO!! full eve g2g, g2s and s2g is only an unzip away... that is so never gunna happen (well ok, maybe they could find a way of checksuming it all and storing that on the server somehow, but on the flip side, what happens if you toast your local settings?). Eventually, the bm's have to flow through the server in some way, shape or form when you give someone a shuttle/can full of bm's.
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Coby Descent
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.04 22:48:00 -
[42]
Possible Solutions:
1) Make it a skill (as someone's mentioned above) with level 5 allowing you to warp right on top of a gate.
2) Put perma-bubbles around each gate. Would mean a major change in tactics for people trying to run through camps.
3) A module that allows insta-warping. Uses a low-slot, with fittings low enough for frigates to use, tho would leave freighters and shuttles vulnerable.
Something mustbe done, as after the new patch we will see a greater divide between older players and newer ones. 0.0 without instas is certain death, and with a 500 region BM set retailing at 40mil at the moment, it would be out of reach of not only new players but some middle-aged players.
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Wilfan Ret'nub
Singularity.
|
Posted - 2006.09.05 08:39:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Trigger64
Every book mark that needs to be copied, needs to un a seperate "SELECT * from Bookmarks WHERE $ID = "#############" (or how every they catalog them) query. a "INSERT INTO Bookmarks WHERE $user = "your_user_name" and then a loop to go back to the selection query.
What really happens is that the BM's are not actually shown on your screen until the entire loop has completed. So if you've got 500 bookmarks to copy, you have to wait until the select -> insert new (duplicate) query has been run.
That's probably how it currently works, though it's a horribly inefficient algorithm. You can copy a single bookmark with a single SQL statement, and if CCP would care enough to optimize batch copying, a whole "drag and drop" of BMs could be done with a single SQL statement.
Also, BM copying is IO, not CPU bound. Similar loads behave like that on fully memory cached databases, so they should be even more IO bound with RAMSAN.
------
No ISK, no fun |
Vorce
|
Posted - 2006.09.05 11:30:00 -
[44]
Originally by: AusSnake
Edited by: AusSnake on 31/08/2006 02:38:22
Hmmm I think this is the start of the Down Fall of EVE
Hehe..............HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Great start in the morning
/me goes to get something to eat
----------
Everything's a ******* game! Even life... |
tiita
|
Posted - 2006.09.05 13:34:00 -
[45]
hmm
something needs to be done immediately, in my opinion about these bms. it is extremely true that the divide line will grow even more. it's already hard enough for new players to catch up... the 5 bms limit will spawn ways around to get bms... already though a couple myself  )
but it wont solve any issue apart for maybe save some cpu usage for the servers. this unfortuntately will increase, in my opinion, in-game issue
traffic advisor messages and now possibly no-bms-available are now making a bit too easy for war mongers and pirates. instead, let's be creative and find ways around.
pirates already got bubbles in low sec.. war mongers just need to be more inventive if they want to fight in high sec, defi with the help from ccp devs.. 
maybe create with an ecm that stop the ship from communicating with the gates (and if you wanted to be really nice to the pirates / war mongers  ) or the stations, therefore preventing re-docking or jumping for a certain amount of time
i agree with the idea of skill-travel Eve is after all heavily based on that idea. let's use it at our advantages
it shouldn't be a long skill(s) to train, max 5 days for lvl 5 and it should be made easily available. maybe charge the odd 10/15 mils per region, which is high enough for a new starter, but not impossible (compared to the recent 40 mils). Could create one cartography skill book per region
the more knowledge of the cartography of the region (lvl 5) the closer you get to the gate maybe with the warp options to 10km, 5km, 3km, 1km appearing to the right click. to make it fairer on poor pirates, it could be kept as manual for distance lower than 15km.. just so to avoid autopilot / housework mode, although we probably all love that too much
it's a pity about the BMS trade thou, as it was an actual proper trade within eve, born of need more than development will die.
just an idea..
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Thomas Maleficus
|
Posted - 2006.09.05 13:55:00 -
[46]
Not sure if anyone brought this up yet, but what about a system wherein one must use something similar to the factory to duplicate book marks. Make it cost isk to do and make it limited to certain stations in a scattered systems. Also to solve the issue of lag, have slots just like the factories. Full slots, move on and copy somewhere else, and limit it so you must be in the same system. Surely this would appease everyone. As for the new players not getting them, we were already in a position where new players had to have them given to them by their corp, make their own or save like mad, since sets cost more than the average cruiser. Will the devs see this post and actually consider this compromise?
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.05 14:30:00 -
[47]
how about an even easier solution, just limit the number of BM's a single player can have.
Make it around a few hundred so you can owna set for an entire region and your major trade routes, but makes people realize they don't need EVERY BM to EVERY system.
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Borasao
|
Posted - 2006.09.05 15:50:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Borasao on 05/09/2006 15:51:26
Quote:
Well actually I like the idea. What [most of] you people don't realize is how CPU hungry the BM's really are.
What most people aren't realizing that insta bookmarks are a player made solution for a broken game mechanic. Don't putz around fixing symptoms. Fix the problem.
Players make instas to bases and jump gates because travel without them is the very definition of tedium. Players think tedium in a game is a bad thing (and what gamers wouldn't?) So, to get rid of mindless, pointless tedium in the game, we use a system that was designed to making a safe spot or two per system, and only in systems where we actually would need such a thing, and turned it into a way to lessen the tedium of travel.
Fix travel and the bookmark problem will simply vanish because it wouldn't be needed to circumvent a broken game mechanic that is nothing but tedium.
So, how do you fix travel? There are lots of suggestions all over the boards but one thing is certain... in 0.5+ security space, all warps should be to range zero of bases/stations and jump gates. This would allow autopilot to zip you right along and the tedium simply vanishes. Arguably, this could also be used for lowsec space but there are some interesting counter arguments that you can see for yourself in various threads.
However, the fact remains that people are crying over the limitations of copying bookmarks and they all agree that instant travel bookmarks are *required* and they even claim that the new copying limitations would put new players at a serious disadvantage because bookmarks would be more difficult to acquire.... So... if bookmarks are required and everyone must have them, then question why they are needed at all and fix why they are needed. Considering that the normal case everyone agrees is that you must have them to get around the tedium of travel, then maybe the tedium of travel is what is broken and why instas are "required". Fix the tedium of travel and bookmarks and related issues should vanish.
I know that I have over 1000 bookmarks and 99% of them are to get around the tedium of travel, especially in slow ships. The remainder are for safe spots and the occassional marking of a mission room so I can return with a hauler. Fix travel and my bookmarks will drop from over 1000 to around 10. Fix travel and everyone will be able to delete all of those bookmarks that are created simply to get around a broken game mechanic of travel tedium.
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Serenity Frye
Gallente
Xoth Inc
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.05 16:27:00 -
[49]
omg this is driving me mad
ive gotta copy 458 bm's FFS
somethin needs to be done =/
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Wilfan Ret'nub
Singularity.
|
Posted - 2006.09.05 16:39:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Serenity Frye
omg this is driving me mad
ive gotta copy 458 bm's FFS
Think of it as only 92 drag and drops If you don't make a mistake
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No ISK, no fun |
Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
|
Posted - 2006.09.06 11:13:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Magnum III
Edited by: Magnum III on 31/08/2006 18:11:34
Not everyone needs to copy so many BM's or even needs so many in the 1st place.
I use about a total of about 40 BM's between 4 alts and main.
I travel long distance with out them, maybe just one at the end or whatever.
I only have about 1mil skill points on my main, you people who need so many books marks,I would not know why, I don't need them. Maybe you are a head of a huge corp? But most by for I can not tell why we'd need alot of them.
oh yeah, I have played a total of about 5 months online and in the game playing. So I am considered a n00b in a way and so only I think you looooong time player need mare book marks then me at any one time. In fact I erased some old ones and got about 10 of them now all together.
book marks to warp out fast, give me a brake. I use the scanner and it's fun to get passed them ones who feel a need to kill me anyways, and with out no stinking warp gate book marks either.
You also obviously don't operate in high sec or low sec - and you probably don't fly anthing slow like a battleship or a freighter.
You cannot operate without them in low sec unless flying an intercepter/vagabond type speed machine. Doing things in a slow ship in high sec without them is tedious beyond belief.
Zarch AlDain
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.09.06 11:16:00 -
[52]
My suggestion:
Change the operation of moving bookmarks into P&P into a copy instead of a move.
That's it...immediately you lose all the destruction of objects as they are moved in, and then the creation as they are copied out.
Zarch AlDain
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Aphotaxis
|
Posted - 2006.09.06 12:00:00 -
[53]
I think it is only a solution for a short time. Maybe only until Kali .... i dont know ...
But i think there are an other solution for that ....
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Trojanman190
Caldari
Everlasting Impact
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Posted - 2006.09.06 12:18:00 -
[54]
Ok i didnt read over every post but you guys just dont get it. The devs said that TQ was running at freaking 95% a few days ago because of intense bookmark copying. Something absolutely needed to be done.
I also dont see why you are whining... look at this logic...
5 bookmarks at a time -> less people copying -> bookmarks copy faster -> less overall time spent copying.
It just means you cant try to copy 100 bookmarks and then go have lunch or something, the way it should be.
You guys also think that this puts a restriction on noobs... why exactly? If your corp has a mining division, guess what they can be doing while they mine for a few hours. With the faster bookmark copy speeds you could easily copy several large sets in an hour. Instas are a strong benefit of joining a corp... now noobs will be even further pressed to get into a player corp.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced
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Posted - 2006.09.07 03:09:00 -
[55]
For those who suggest the skill solution there are two major ideas and neither of them work.
First-Low level skill thats fast and easy to train. Well, if it only will take a week to train then EVERYONE will train it as soon as it comes out. I can't think of any type of corp that wouldn't require it at 5. so you have a skill which is a must train... which is bad.
Second-High level skill or multiple skills, well you end up with all the problems of the first only now it takes longer. Even a 1km run to a gate in trying to escape someone can mean you being destroyed. So you create a set of skills that are just a huge timesink or your severely disadvantaged in EVE. Either way you still have something that becomes a must have skill.
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OrangeAfroMan
Suffoco Noctis
Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2006.09.07 07:34:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Cazad
I'd say.. Make ALL bookmarks temporary, bookmarks automaticly deletes after 2hours or something.. I mean, the game wasnt made so you should Insta Jump to the gates, it was made so you end up 15km away from the gates so the PvP part of the game would be more common, and transporting would require a team of fighters for protection. With 2hour bookmarks, you can bookmark a area and get back to the same location for loot etc, but it will be removed after a while.
Just a thought, I also have gate bookmarks and indeed they save lives..
But that way it would surley make things more fun as well. Since now a person with insta bookmarks, is rather impossible to catch.
// Cazad, Sweden
QFT
Btw everyone CCP apparently is planning to change things in another way... I *think* there will soon be like a 40% chance you land on top of a gate and 60% chance you land 15km away... Could be wrong though >.>
BTW Bookmarks as they are used for instas are "not being used as intended." Just an FYI
Gronsak is Tux's angry alt. |
Takigama
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.09.08 19:33:00 -
[57]
imho, any solution that makes low-sec freighter runs longer is just going to really hurt the game.
So heres yet another thought.. if not standings based (as per my last post), why not make it ship based. Supposedly the whole reason we warp in at 15 is to give people the oporutunity to gank us. Well, how about evening out the time spent on both sides of the gate for the various ships.
i.e. a freighter can warp in at 0, cause when he gets thru he has to spend 90 seconds at the gate getting back into warp anyway, an inty has to warp in at 30, so he spends 15 seconds on the approaching side of the gate, but as always inties take 0 time to get into warp once they're through.
It still means a pirate is going to have ample opportunity to gank the freighter, and gives them a better chance at the interceptor.
That whole "factories for copying bookmarks" sounds like something worth a bit of thought.
As for 5-at-a-time, it seriously isnt THAT bad. Try copying domain's 1400+ bm's, it was tedious before, and maybe a bit worse now but nowhere near as bad as I was expecting. I dont sell bm's myself, but i wish i did now cause this change should certianly help them out! But they deserve the isk for being willing to spend the time doing the copying anyway  .
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Atar
Perpetua Umbra
Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.09.08 22:30:00 -
[58]
Well something needs to be done, I'm not a huge insta user, but ganking to me is not pirating. If I remember correctly at one time CCP upped the range of the Sentries to combat ganking, now they seem to embrace it. I can understand people's complaints and I also understand the lag from the BMs.
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Lady Beauvoir
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Posted - 2006.09.10 08:59:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Lady Beauvoir on 10/09/2006 08:59:50
Removing instabookmarks will probably have quite an effect for the entire game. Consider a large industrial alliance with only a few combat pilots: 0.0 space will not be readily available for them (except for NPCing), since goods will be really difficult to transport between 0.0 and empire as it will be far more easy to set up gatecamps.
How about large alliances who like to deliver lots of products to empire for sale and are at war? They either move the products to the nearest 0.5 system in a huge convoy fleet, give the goods to alts and then proceed. Or take the 200+ pilot fleet to Jita, where their enemy is waiting with a similar sized fleet. I probably don't need to explain what happens then.
In a sense, there are lots of player created workarounds (instas, hauling and market alts, whatnot) to make the game less tedious for players and to keep the market alive. There's a fine balance here and disrupting it will probably have quite large consequenses. Should there be no way to warp closer to gate than 15km (even not allowing gangwarps to a covops exactly 15km behind the gate), there might be a change towards the game turning into a battle, where destroying your opponent's supply lines and industry is the main goal. Is this what we want? At least it would be viable in other ways than just sieging the POS's.
In addition, the types of players hurt by such a change will be the miners, manufacturers and traders. To create infrastructure in 0.0 one needs factories, labs and minerals - and POS's, which in turn require fuel, which needs either to be harvested further away or moved from empire. Instead, NPCing requires only ammo and provides instant ISK. Thus, why mine? One could simply NPC hunt, create isk, buy items from empire and fly back with friends as a combat-ready fleet. The only reason to mine could be to produce capital ships in installations one cannot use elsewhere than in a POS.
The current change doesn't really change anything, yet. But the point I'm trying to make is that the changes with BM's might have far more drastic consequenses than just on the "simpler" game mechanics that can be tested on Sisi - there's no way to emulate the player-generated market of 140k people on Sisi. In my opinion there will be consequenses for the economy if bookmarks are removed.
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Wahbosiao
Einherjar Rising
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.09.11 05:35:00 -
[60]
i find the BM copyinG limit has made it EVEN faster to copy BMs.
Disable BMs would be a good idea. But to those with a limited playing time would be at disadvantage, coz They need more time to move between systems.
Or we could disable warping to gate in 0.0. This would make 0.0 a much more dangerous place.
Anyway, there is more ways to speed up copying BMs. If we all could think more & talk less.
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Savio
|
Posted - 2006.09.11 08:30:00 -
[61]
I think its unfair to us new players that have no way of getting complete instas to the systems. so if they are gonna nerf them they should do it to all players.. Its unfair that some characets have copyed complete instas and other cant caus the new rule.... just isent fair. so.. Either remote bookmark complete, or make some kind of bookmark query system.
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zacuis
Infinite Improbability Inc
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.11 10:27:00 -
[62]
i dont think ive seen a single person say they would appose the idea of simply allowing people to wrp straight to the gate at 1km. 90% of the time people dont fly in low sec with out being able to do that any way. i think now is the time to finally do this. plz plz plz save this game cos atm i see more and more of my friends going off to play xbox where they dont get lagged to death and can actually play a game.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.09.11 11:18:00 -
[63]
Originally by: zacuis
i dont think ive seen a single person say they would appose the idea of simply allowing people to wrp straight to the gate at 1km. 90% of the time people dont fly in low sec with out being able to do that any way. i think now is the time to finally do this. plz plz plz save this game cos atm i see more and more of my friends going off to play xbox where they dont get lagged to death and can actually play a game.
Actually lots of people have posted objecting to it in all sorts of threads.
Personally I am neutral...
Zarch AlDain
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Worms Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.11 15:50:00 -
[64]
how about this, when you copy BMs it puts in a Queue for the next reset. in otherwords when you copy a BM set you get a popup that says "Your Bookmarks will be copied at the next schedueled downtime". and then have them copy to the person as part of the DB rebuild that happens in that 90min downtime.
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Hawk Fireblade
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Posted - 2006.09.12 00:30:00 -
[65]
I'd love the idea of designing the game to give something back to the player by modifing the transit and combat system in eve totally so they don't need to be there in the first place and it is possible.
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XiZ0r
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.12 15:39:00 -
[66]
Originally by: omega2
i love the idea
couse then nobody can copy 100 bm's in fleet battle to create lag like bob and fix did
and less bm's will be copied so less lag
I still wonder where this comes from...
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Spy4Hire
|
Posted - 2006.09.12 19:19:00 -
[67]
Originally by: omega2
i love the idea
couse then nobody can copy 100 bm's in fleet battle to create lag like bob and fix did
and less bm's will be copied so less lag
I petitioned this months and months ago when I witnessed a sudden lag smash when a fleet warped in to engage a BoB fleet... The engaging fleet was wiped out before their clients loaded the new invironment.
But the GM said nothing was amiss... yet more proof that BoB is glutted with GMs.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.09.14 07:47:00 -
[68]
Ok, I have never been in BoB - however I have fought them many times.
They are very good tactically and strategically, with well disciplined fleets and enough tech 2 kit to sink a mothership.
I have never, even once, seen them use lag/logon traps/etc. Quite apart from anything else they don't need to.
Rememeber: If they lagged out the node they would be lagged too.
In the case you described what happened was what always happens. When you warp in you have to load the entire grid - and they just need to load the incoming ships. The defender always has the lag advantage that way.
Try watching a BoB fleet warp in sometime. They warp in 400km away in order to fully load the grid, and then they do a small warp inside grid to get within range having neutralised the lag disadvantage.
No cheating, no exploits. Just smart tactical moves to mean they aren't hit by loading lag at the same time as trying to fight.
Zarch AlDain
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Splagada
Minmatar
Tides of Silence
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Posted - 2006.09.14 11:09:00 -
[69]
coarse-grain the universe...
instead of having a continuous bookmarkable space, set 20 "interest points" per system and allow bookmarking only between those.
instead of a huge bm list now you get a listed possible bookmark, which you can index from BM0 to BM999999999
Tides of Silence recruiting mature players |
JForce
The Arrow Project
The ARR0W Project
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 11:54:00 -
[70]
You guys are forgetting there are 2 completely separate issues here:
1) The overall issue with BMs. How they were never intended this way, the general strain on the system, makes it harder for me to gank miners wah wah wah
2) RA and others dropping a shtload of them in combat to lag it out
This change was made to address PROBLEM 2. A fix for problem 1 is a hell of a lot bigger and uglier than this, and as we know CCP have been agonising over it for years. But you have to REPLACE it with SOMETHING.
The issue is that the resolution for PROBLEM 2 is a poor one, and half-ass breaks problem 1 WITHOUT replacing the game mechanic in any way.
The simple solution is to make a limit of 50 at a time WHEN DOCKED IN A STATION. And that in-space BMs can only be copied or moved 1 at a time.
Problem 2 solved, without crapping all over problem 1, leaving time and effort to work on the real solution.
The Australasian PvP Championships |
mallina
Caldari
Turbulent
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Posted - 2006.09.15 13:28:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Spikum
Remove Bookmakrs and make it impossible to create a bookmark within 150 km of a Station/stargate. Simple and good soloution. This will make 0.0 more dangerous.
Ad a Skillbonus for freighters like 2.5km Warp precision per level r whatsoever. Or they just use someone to gangwarp to....
Othwersie thats a kick in the face of people who spend many days creating those ammounts of bookmarks.
i agree
the amount of nano/stab haulers that can insta through lowsec and even 0.0 without any escort of any kind is ridiculous atm, I dont even need a blockade runner to do it.
creating a "warp to 0km" function would be fatal to eve. sure you might still be able to catch them on the other side, but not if you're in a slow-locking battleship or only have 1-2 pts when the target is full of stabs. EVE is already far too safe as it is, you know there never used to be sentry guns on 0.1-0.4 gates? i hated when they put those in... now everyone feels they have a -right- to fly through low-sec without risk, its sad.
remove all BMs on the same grid as gates and stations. its easy really, the only issue is that you'd have to compensate the people who've already spent millions of isk buying them or countless hours making them
it might also be a good idea to prevent the ability to copy BMs, but instead have a system in which the corp could own BMs that everyone could use, gang leader had BMs that everyone could use, etc... rather than everyone having to make their own. you would of course still have personal safespots and such...
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<3 Turbulance |
Xartarous
Caldari
Tongue Talking Fanatics
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Posted - 2006.09.15 17:25:00 -
[72]
As I've said before, instas themseleves will not be going anywhere anytime soon. Not only to they significantly lower travel time (especially in haulers), they are currently the only way to safely deal with gatecamps on an outgoing gate (besides prehaps using a cloaking device, and engaging it before being locked on). With them, you have a 50% chance of escaping a camp - you can probably escape a camp on the gate your warping to, but if a camp is at the gate your warping from, *smack*
As usual, the majority of the people crying for the removal of instas are merely looking for a way to gank weaker ships, in particular haulers, but that's beside the point...
Personally, I'm actually for the removal of the ability to copy, sell and buy bookmarks along with imposing an overall limit on the number of bookmarks a person can maintain. Doing this would definitely help to ease the load on the servers as region-wide bookmarks would no longer exist in the numbers that they do right now - not many people would be willing to invest the time necessary for such a task, and with a limit on the total number of bookmarks you can store, players would have to strategically pick and choose which routes to bookmark.
Of course, to implement this plan, *all* bookmarks currently within range of a gate or station will have to be deleted. 
It will not be pretty in the short term, but in the long run, it will be worth it. No longer will you be able to buy near-absolute safely with ISK; instead players will be forced to bear the pain, effort and danger of developing their own insta collections.
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Xartarous
Caldari
Tongue Talking Fanatics
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Posted - 2006.09.15 19:07:00 -
[73]
Originally by: mallina
Originally by: Spikum
Remove Bookmakrs and make it impossible to create a bookmark within 150 km of a Station/stargate. Simple and good soloution. This will make 0.0 more dangerous.
Ad a Skillbonus for freighters like 2.5km Warp precision per level r whatsoever. Or they just use someone to gangwarp to....
Othwersie thats a kick in the face of people who spend many days creating those ammounts of bookmarks.
i agree
the amount of nano/stab haulers that can insta through lowsec and even 0.0 without any escort of any kind is ridiculous atm, I dont even need a blockade runner to do it.
creating a "warp to 0km" function would be fatal to eve. sure you might still be able to catch them on the other side, but not if you're in a slow-locking battleship or only have 1-2 pts when the target is full of stabs. EVE is already far too safe as it is, you know there never used to be sentry guns on 0.1-0.4 gates? i hated when they put those in... now everyone feels they have a -right- to fly through low-sec without risk, its sad.
remove all BMs on the same grid as gates and stations. its easy really, the only issue is that you'd have to compensate the people who've already spent millions of isk buying them or countless hours making them
it might also be a good idea to prevent the ability to copy BMs, but instead have a system in which the corp could own BMs that everyone could use, gang leader had BMs that everyone could use, etc... rather than everyone having to make their own. you would of course still have personal safespots and such...
See, it's quotes like the above that help to demonstrate just what kind of people you rats are, namely cowards who want to gank haulers 100% of the time, giving them absolutely no defense against your pirating ways...
From your statements we can definitely conclude that you are not a miner/hauler/trader; your probably a pirate, most likey a gate snipper/camper. You say the number of haulers that can run past your camps using instas, without escorts are high; so you'd like instas to be removed implying that once this is done, players will be forced to move in groups. However, if this occurs, your gate camping strategies will no longer be effective, as you will be forced to flee from armed hauler protection groups.
We can therefore conclude that what you and others like you actually want, are for players to be forced to warp to camped gates, without escorts, protection, or defensive maneuvers of any kind in other words, lambs to the slaughter...
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mallina
Caldari
Turbulent
|
Posted - 2006.09.16 02:29:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Xartarous
so you'd like instas to be removed implying that once this is done, players will be forced to move in groups
not really.
you can still easily travel solo without instas, just fit nanos and an MWD. IMO though, haulers in particular were never meant to be able to travel through low-sec by themselves with little risk like they can now, because of instas. long before everyone used them like they do now and before the placement of sentry guns in 0.1-0.4, things like Trade Runs into lowsec would often require escort of some form, opening up many possibilities for teamwork/employment of mercs/etc, rather than the rather singleplayer approach EVE seems to have taken since.
besides, transports are more than capable of travel through low-sec and 0.0 without instas.
Originally by: Xartarous
We can therefore conclude that what you and others like you actually want, are for players to be forced to warp to camped gates, without escorts, protection, or defensive maneuvers of any kind; in other words lambs to the slaughter...
well, no. will they die if they warp to the gate? probably. the idea is they dont warp to the gate, because they cant get past- ie: a blockade. for what reason? who knows- merc contract perhaps to block off a major traffic route maybe. is it nice? for those affected, no. EVE isnt about being nice.
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<3 Turbulance |
VCBee 756
|
Posted - 2006.09.17 02:04:00 -
[75]
Set a cap on bookmarks (50 or so), add a Warp To At 1KM option. Problem bloody solved.
Why won't CCP just do this and get it over with? Yeah yeah, it'll be impossible to stop people, whatever - thats what interdictors, warp bubbles and the like are for.
Set a cap on bookmarks, add Warp To At 1KM. This will solve lag problems, database problems, insta's being considered 'cheating' and being 'unfair', and will make newbies less afraid of 0.0.
CCP says they want to make it EASIER for people to get into 0.0, yet they pull crap like nerfing bookmarks and ignoring the calls for closer warp-to options. Devs, face it - unless you want to **** off every person who lives in 0.0, don't get rid of bookmarks. And if you really want to let more people out into 0.0 space, make it so newbies can venture out more easily.
And if you're concerned about people being 'invulnerable' by just switching on autopilot, force autopilot to warp to at 15KM - therefore people still have to pay attention if they want to remain alive.
In summary: the current bookmark/insta situation only hurts newbies. Don't remove bookmarks - simply make them unnecessary. And for the pirates out there - there are plenty of ways to gank your newbies, even if they have instas/a warp-to-at-1KM option. Be creative.
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Dracolich
North Star Networks
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Posted - 2006.09.18 21:57:00 -
[76]
I don't understand what the fuzz is about... You can still copy a complete set to your folder in one go(i bet, tho i limit myself to 40 at a time). Its the copying from the folder to whatever that needs 5 at a time. Btw you can just copy 5, and before they are created, you copy the next 5.. and so on and so forth... works well, ofc more maintenance than before, but not impossible.
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