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Pesht	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:17:00 - [1] No one seems to account for the fact lasers not having ammo isn't just a novelty, it actually increases their dps since you never have 10 seconds of absolutely zero dps. Makes a huge difference I imagine, but has anyone actually done the math? Everyone likes to throw numbers around but no one takes the lack of reloading into account, but I don't have the mathmatical fortitude to calculate it... Still thought I should throw it out there since everyone is screaming Amarr sucks.
korrey Level Five	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:19:00 - [2] The fact that everyone has insane resistance to EM and THERM outweighs the 10 seconds of firing. Now if everyone didnt have such high resistanes then that would make a HUGE difference. -Level Five
Bhoki Tentor	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:20:00 - [3] Originally by: korrey The fact that everyone has insane resistance to EM and THERM outweighs the 10 seconds of firing. Now if everyone didnt have such high resistanes then that would make a HUGE difference. Shield tankers generally don't have high em and therm resistances, just an fyi.
Zaethiel	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:20:00 - [4] depending on what guns you use you probably wont reload anyways.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:27:00 - [5] Originally by: Bhoki Tentor Shield tankers generally don't have high em and therm resistances, just an fyi. Actually the most common all-purpose shieldtank setup is 1 EM, 2 invul fields, so EM is usually the 2nd best resistance there. Nevermind that in PvP with the low <-> medslot imbalance only about 20% of all ships have a shieldtank (and from the basic ship design we have about 66% armor, 33% shieltanks ingame).
Bhoki Tentor	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:32:00 - [6] Edited by: Bhoki Tentor on 30/08/2006 22:32:43 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Bhoki Tentor Shield tankers generally don't have high em and therm resistances, just an fyi. Actually the most common all-purpose shieldtank setup is 1 EM, 2 invul fields, so EM is usually the 2nd best resistance there. Nevermind that in PvP with the low <-> medslot imbalance only about 20% of all ships have a shieldtank (and from the basic ship design we have about 66% armor, 33% shieltanks ingame). How often do you see people fitting the common all-purpose shield tank? Midslots are to vital sadly, so more often then not will you see weaker shield tanks if tanked at all <edit> or armor tanked </edit>
xlop Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:37:00 - [7] i dont think i have ever had to relaod a blaster or railgun before my enermy died [or my cap ] Nor have i ever had to reload a missile launcher before my target dies, the only one i have problems with is AC mostly and just for note, i normally use medium or large guns/missiles
xlop Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:41:00 - [8] imo on shields drop 10% off exp and add it to EM and on armor drop 10% off EM and add it to EXP
fmercury Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:41:00 - [9] You rarely see shield tanks beacuse jammers are so powerful. Except on ships like the vagabond, or slep/claymore (and EM/therm are very high on thier shields even with no hardeners.) So it has thrown the balance out of whack somewhat.
Vathar Elegance	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:52:00 - [10] One thing that has to be said about "standard tanking" setups, is that the "standard" 2EANMII+DCU isn't that standard! I've never heard of a frig fitting one, although 1 DCU is fairly common, but 1 DCU isn't enough to hurt laser users THAT much On T1 cruisers, tou don't always have enough slots for this, and an EANM II can be as expensive as the cruiser itself. T1 cruisers often go for oversized plates as a form of tanking, so resists don't move much. On T2 cruisers that armortank: Gallente : usually go for an exp hardener+dcu, and SOMETIMES an extra EANM Minmatar : doh! lasers just don't work against those, and no point fitting eanms on them Amarr : they've got a thermal hole to fill, and if they setup for a tank, they usually get well rounded resists in the end Caldari : usually shieldtank, but armortanking would look like gallente with less slots. BC tech 1: Ferox shieldtanks Cyclone shieldtankts too or goes for ECM+plates+crappy armortank Prophecy can probably fit the dreaded EANM Tank, not much experience with it Brutix too if needed, but I often find them going for all out gank and crappy tank or full tank with actives. As for the proph, I'm not an expert about those. BC tech 2: They have insane tanks anyway! I usually see them ending up with well rounded resists too Battleships: Yeah, on those, EANM tanking is frequent. _ Originally by:* Stamm Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing an uzi
Krist Valentine Amarr Bad Omen Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:56:00 - [11] Originally by: Bhoki Tentor Originally by: korrey The fact that everyone has insane resistance to EM and THERM outweighs the 10 seconds of firing. Now if everyone didnt have such high resistanes then that would make a HUGE difference. Shield tankers generally don't have high em and therm resistances, just an fyi. Actually I would have thought (but don't know for sure) that people would tank those first on shields because they're so weak by default... - - - - - I hate pointless sigs.
Bhoki Tentor	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Krist Valentine Originally by: Bhoki Tentor Originally by: korrey The fact that everyone has insane resistance to EM and THERM outweighs the 10 seconds of firing. Now if everyone didnt have such high resistanes then that would make a HUGE difference. Shield tankers generally don't have high em and therm resistances, just an fyi. Actually I would have thought (but don't know for sure) that people would tank those first on shields because they're so weak by default... yes, they would but then we have the invul field, which creates the same situation as with eanm. ends up with lower em resists but overall resists with 2 invuls is better then with a 3 hardener shield tank while only using 2 mids. Of course that invul tank will be powerfull vs. explosive as it starts with 60 and ends up with 80+. Though high explosive resist on shield won't be complained about because explosive resist is a relatively rare damage type because it is minmatar main damage type but our ammo does not reflect that currently(damage types are all over the place). Give minmatar more focus on explosive damage and that changes this. As Tux has said, shield tanks are indeed better then armor tanks BUT shield tanks take up precious mid slots while armor tanks don't.
Frools No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Vathar I've never heard of a frig fitting one, although 1 DCU is fairly common, but 1 DCU isn't enough to hurt laser users THAT much On T1 cruisers, tou don't always have enough slots for this, and an EANM II can be as expensive as the cruiser itself. T1 cruisers often go for oversized plates as a form of tanking, so resists don't move much. mmmhmm, now look at base resists as far as the ratios between the different damage types goes theres no difference between untanked armour and eanm/dcu tanked armour lasers get shafted either way compared to other weapon systems
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:16:00 - [14] Originally by: Frools Originally by: Vathar I've never heard of a frig fitting one, although 1 DCU is fairly common, but 1 DCU isn't enough to hurt laser users THAT much On T1 cruisers, tou don't always have enough slots for this, and an EANM II can be as expensive as the cruiser itself. T1 cruisers often go for oversized plates as a form of tanking, so resists don't move much. mmmhmm, now look at base resists as far as the ratios between the different damage types goes theres no difference between untanked armour and eanm/dcu tanked armour lasers get shafted either way compared to other weapon systems I would like to add that the innermost quote's point is moot for the following reasons: 1. Most setups don't shield tank frigs. (You need the few mids you have on a frig.) 2. Small lasers have rediculous fittings. They had better pwn shields.
Emperor D'Hoffryn Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:19:00 - [15] actually, against a completely untanked ship EM is the best damage type you can do. 60% on armor plus 0% on shield gives you usually the lowest overall resist, although some ships have so much more armor than shields that its slightly balanced out. Before eanm2s, most armor tankers didnt bother with EM, 60% is high enough, etc. in any case, lasers should do more therm than EM is you ask me. But what do I know? Ive been sued by every patient I've ever had! Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:19:00 - [16] Edited by: Aramendel on 30/08/2006 23:19:33 Originally by: Bhoki Tentor Though high explosive resist on shield won't be complained about because explosive resist is a relatively rare damage type because it is minmatar main damage type but our ammo does not reflect that currently(damage types are all over the place). Give minmatar more focus on explosive damage and that changes this. Even they you would have this only one about 1 in every 5 ships. The resistance issue wouldn't be a real problem if we had a 50:50 armor:shieldtanker ship distribution, that is really the core problem here.
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:20:00 - [17] I agree, reload time needs to be fixed. Make reloading instant, and remove all ammo except those that utilize EM as primary. Replace kinetic with EM for hybrid ammo. There. Now you can be uber just like Amarr.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Bhoki Tentor Originally by: korrey The fact that everyone has insane resistance to EM and THERM outweighs the 10 seconds of firing. Now if everyone didnt have such high resistanes then that would make a HUGE difference. Shield tankers generally don't have high em and therm resistances, just an fyi. kin and therm are the lowest actually. Most people go 2x invuln and an em hardener, therm ends up being the lowest at around 68 or so iirc.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:37:00 - [19] Originally by: Stephar I agree, reload time needs to be fixed. Make reloading instant, and remove all ammo except those that utilize EM as primary. Replace kinetic with EM for hybrid ammo. There. Now you can be uber just like Amarr. And where does the EM damage come from a hybrid charge?
Andreask14 Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:37:00 - [20] On the battleship level of ships reloading is not an issue, as rail and arties as well as blaster and ACS kill other BS without having to reload, or with having to reload at MOST once. Wow, thats a full 10 seconds more for a laser user that does from 31% to 61% less damage on EANII tanked ships depending on the weapon and crystal used compared to ammo that doesnt use EM damage.
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.08.31 00:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Vathar One thing that has to be said about "standard tanking" setups, is that the "standard" 2EANMII+DCU isn't that standard! Yes, because we have battleships that focus on attacking... frigates? Irrelavent* BS is primarily used for attacking Battlecruiser and UP, and guess what, most PVP BS pilots fit EANM + DCU or INVULERABILITY + EM. The Amarr damage isn't the best nor the worst, but irrelavent arguements only make you look like an ignorant troll. My Guides
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.08.31 00:10:00 - [22] EM is still the highest resist on armor regardless of how many EANM's you have. You can have 1, 2, 3, heck, 4... add a DC, doesn't matter. EM is always the highest unless you go out of your way to specifically boost the other 3.
Vathar Elegance	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:54:00 - [23] Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Vathar One thing that has to be said about "standard tanking" setups, is that the "standard" 2EANMII+DCU isn't that standard! Yes, because we have battleships that focus on attacking... frigates? Irrelavent* BS is primarily used for attacking Battlecruiser and UP, and guess what, most PVP BS pilots fit EANM + DCU or INVULERABILITY + EM. The Amarr damage isn't the best nor the worst, but irrelavent arguements only make you look like an ignorant troll. Huhu, where in the post is it stated that we're only tallking about BS vs BS here? Just to point out a little detail that you seem to have missed, the words "Battleship" or "BS" don't appear in thread before my post, neither is mentionned anywhere that we're narrowing this topic to battleships As far as I know, lasers can be fitted on all sizes of ships from frigs up to capitals, and those lasers can be used to hit all sizes of ships from frigs up to capitals. I agree that EANM and DCU comes quite frequently on BS fittings, but pvp is far from being restricted to battleships! Now when you fly pvp, BS are the norm in fleets, but tanking and damage are considered differently in a fleet. But when you leave fleets aside, you see all kinds of ships of all sizes, and if you take a look at those ships, you'll see that the ones using an EANM II+DCU aren't that many, for reasons I have stated in my previous post. Tanking and ships encountered also vary according to many factors: ss wise, you see more pirate battleships in low sec because they need to tank sentries/get out of their range. In 0.0, mobility is a more important factor and you see less battleships Oh, and if you're roaming, you can also discard NPC ships that are often tanked against local NPC. (While I was roaming in a gurista 0.0, claws and crusaders always came on top of killmails before taranises, and raw dps of a taranis IS higher) Of course, if you go after NPC chasing blood raiders/sanshas, you'll get in trouble! considering the amount of people complaining about the impact of EANM on lasers, and shouting everywhere that all ships flying around have an EANM+DCU tanking, pointing out that eanm aren't as common as they seem to believe might be interesting. _ Originally by: Stamm Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing an uzi
inSpirAcy Caldari The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:59:00 - [24] The Damage over Time statistic accounts for that and is used in all credible graphs (including those generated by NB's). So yes, it is accounted for.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:09:00 - [25] This thread starter is very brave... I fear he will be scorched to death by the angry Amarr mob running around these forums. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:25:00 - [26] Edited by: Aramendel on 31/08/2006 18:28:50 No need, non-amarr pilots did that already (although nicer). Originally by: Vathar Oh, and if you're roaming, you can also discard NPC ships that are often tanked against local NPC. (While I was roaming in a gurista 0.0, claws and crusaders always came on top of killmails before taranises, and raw dps of a taranis IS higher) When do you need top performance, when going against a ship with a NPC fit or going against a ship with a PvP fit? Being better against ships where you do not really need to be better does not help much.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:30:00 - [27] I'll deliberately remove racial resists bonuses for armor, because calculations become nightmarish with them. Hybrids have a 40/20% base resistance to their damage when they hit shields, and 20/40% resists on armor. They can't vary their damage types, but it's better to deal a damage that is more or less evenly resisted by both layers of protection, than punching through one layer effortlessly and having trouble breaching the second. If you don't believe me, the math to prove that is pretty simple to do. Projectiles have a...well, hard to say, since their most damaging t1 ammo do so primarily EM damage. Let's assume it's explosive/kinetic. So they have 60/40% on shields, and 0/20% on armors. Lasers have a 0/20% on shields and 60/40% on armor. Sound fair at first glance, compared to the others. At second glance, not so much. Then, you have a lot more armor tanks than shield tanks out there, in part because tackling and sniping modules are mostly mids, and in part because of EW. And also because ships in general tend to have more low slots than mid slots. I'd be curious to see how many T1 ships use a shield tank for pvp. I bet it's less than 20% of the total. What lasers SHOULD do: 20/20% resistance to their damage on shields, 40/40% on armors. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Draugz Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:12:00 - [28] I dont see the big deal with Lasers, all the ships i fly usually has less than 5% margine between EM, therm and kin when im using Therm and Kin hardener plus an EANM. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Vathar Elegance	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:32:00 - [29] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 31/08/2006 18:28:50 No need, non-amarr pilots did that already (although nicer). Originally by: Vathar Oh, and if you're roaming, you can also discard NPC ships that are often tanked against local NPC. (While I was roaming in a gurista 0.0, claws and crusaders always came on top of killmails before taranises, and raw dps of a taranis IS higher) When do you need top performance, when going against a ship with a NPC fit or going against a ship with a PvP fit? Being better against ships where you do not really need to be better does not help much. Fair enough, but I was just pointing out to show there are much more fits than one would care to admit. The point about NPC fitted ships only stands when you've got barely enough dps to overcome an NPCer's tank, in which case hitting his weak resists is important since they'll often be MUCH weaker than the strong ones. Therefore, I admit it's not of utmost importance! _ Originally by: Stamm Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing an uzi
Arcterran Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.01 05:34:00 - [30] Originally by: Jim McGregor This thread starter is very brave... I fear he will be scorched to death by the angry Amarr mob running around these forums. /waves torch and pitchfork in the direction of this thread I've cornered another lasers-are-alright supporter over here!!

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