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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.31 15:22:00 -
[1]
I got the basics only to lvl 3 first, too, and trained up for a BC to do lvl 3 missions, which took about a month. And then started going for the advanced learning skills. Got now all exept char, that will wait till I go for comamnd ships in a couple of months.
But that is besides the point - no matter when you do it (and you should do it better sooner than later since the learning skills give you a significant sp growth boost) it means you'll have a skill learning downtime of 2 months where you don't get anything new what you can actaully use in the game. The time you train the learning skills is essentially one of the most stupid, most unrewarding timesinks you get in EvE.
IMO it would help new players BIG TIME in starting with EVE if new chars had all basic learning skills trained to 5 per default. I really do not see how this can have anything but positive effects.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.31 17:23:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: nahtoh
...I personally would not do them past lvl 3 till you got your feet under you...this mini rant is not aimed at the post I am repling to...
The thing is that this does not matter.
If you do them at once or after three months, what you get is identical. 2 months of effective "downtime" where your char does not really advance.
Even if you mix a learning skill, a "real" skill, a learning skill..you still have the same result. The learning skills phase is then slightly less painfull, but also longer. No difference effeciently.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.31 17:42:00 -
[3]
Originally by: nahtoh
But you don't screw yourself over fun wise...thats the point viruatully all the "you must grind the skills ASAP" morons seem to miss while complaining about NOT HAVING ANY FUN while training the damm things...
Again, it does not matter *when* you do it. Training the learning skills up sucks if you do it right at the start, sucks if you do it after a months, sucks if you do it after half a year.
They are a dumb downtime which is reducing your game enjoyment, does not matter when it happens.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.31 18:23:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Aramendel on 31/08/2006 18:23:45
Originally by: nahtoh
They are a option, nothing more nothing less...
They are the most effecient way to maximize your skill training.
You could "as an option" also transport 5 mil trit with a shuttle instead with an indy. But you would be rather stupid if you do it that way.
Just because you do not *have* to do it does not mean you *should* not do it.
That something "is only an option" does not change anything here. For example, you could make one races ships 10 times better than everything else. But, hey, it would not matter since training for other ships is only an option. Everyone can train for the stronger ships after all.
Bad gamedesign is bad gamedesign, does not matter if the thing in question is mandatory or not.
And nvmd that in the end the learning skills *are* mandatory. Sure, you do not have to learn them. But then you can see your SP grow with about the same speed as you transport 5 mil trit with a shuttle. This is no option, this is either being stupid or not.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.31 20:59:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Aramendel on 31/08/2006 21:07:24
Originally by: nahtoh
They are not mandatory in any way shape or form...there is nothing in this game that requires you to train the learning skills.
They are a option which is there for you to use nothing more.
Redundant argument because nothing in the game is madatory.
As said, you also could try to transport 5 mil trit in a shuttle instead of an indy. You could *choose* not to use an indy, but you would be stupid not to. Same with learning skills.
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The keypoint really is: Do learning skills enrich the game in any way? Would removing the basic ones and simply giving all chars +5 to all attributes have negative effects? Would letting new chars start with the basic learning skills at lvl 5 remove any "fun" aspect for them?
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.31 21:44:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Aramendel on 31/08/2006 21:44:30
double
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.31 21:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: nahtoh
The keypoint is why cater to the ADD power lvlers?
Treat the learning skills like a non-remoavble implants...its the idea behind them...remove the thought that you can't be compete with out them...its quite false...
They were brought in to help with lowering the skill times for the higher rank skills. God help the whinners when they start to hit really high ranked skills to lvl 5.
You see them as a problem, I see them as choice I have to decrease my training time when I feel like training them.
I also see a problem if the devs cave in over this...A slippery slope for the next demand for making things more "effective training"...
It has nothing to do with "power lvling". It has soemthing to do with doing stuff in the most effective way in the least amount of time.
Also, learning skills were in the game right at the beginning. The first implants appeared over half a year afterwards. You confuse the chicken with the egg here. Nothing prevents you from using the learning skills and implants together, too. You wouldn't tell someone to train up gunnery, but not rapid fire, would you?
Would you rather transport 5 mil trit in a shuttle and take 1 week for it if you could do it in 1 hour with an indy?
Would you rather learn a skill in 3 days or in 1 day after you trained the learning skills?
In both situations using the more effective alternative is not mandatory, aka "a choice". But those people who choose not to use it are, to put it bluntly, the villiage morons of EVE.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.31 22:12:00 -
[8]
As is hauling 5 mil trit in a shuttle instead an indy. It's a choice. A very stupid one, though.
Again, *everything* in the game is a choice. Saying "It's a choice" is no real argument because you can use it for every single thing, including the most glaring problems.
"ship a has twice the dps and hitpoints as ship b (which has the same size)." "It's a choice, do not train for ship b then". Doesn't change anything that ship b is too weak, though.
Likewise, that learning skills "are a choice" (with not learning them being like flying ship b) does change not a single bit that they are boring timesink.
All you are doing with that argument is another way of putting your head in the sand and shouting "I can't hear you".
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.09.01 16:55:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Aramendel on 01/09/2006 16:57:28
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
That shuttle 'analogy' is so stupid it almost makes me cry. The proportionality is totally out of whack, seeing how you would need 1000s of shuttle runs while the all out learning only saves like 30-60% of training time on some early skills while also taking away a lot.
And where did I wrote that the effeciency growth is the same in both examples? Nowhere?
The point is that the principle is the same.
Quote:
Here's a very generalized example, ignoring secondary skills. ... That is not even half the time, much less the 1/3 our shuttle expert suggests.
You completely miss the point. Again, I never, ever said you have to train your advanced learning skills at the start. In fact, in my very first post I said that I myself specifially did NOT do that.
Trained the normal ones just to lvl 3, got the skills to do lvl 3 missions in a BC in my first month and trained the learning skills in month 2-3. While doing lvl 3 mission.
The point is it does not matter when you do the learning skills. Sooner or later you'll have to bite in the sour apple and do them. Or, of cource, "choose" to be dumb and ignore them.
And training them sucks. Does not matter if it happens on day 1, after 1 or 6 months. The time you spend with your advanced learning skills is essentially a boring timesink where your char pauses in it's developement.
When I trained them I found myself playing less and less. I can definately imagine that other players can stop altogether in that phase, especially if they notice another game during this time.
The question is, again, what "good" the learning skills do for the game. So far noone has tried to answer this.
All they do really right now is being an equivalent to a dumb "manhood ritual" to see if you have the dedication for the game.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.09.01 19:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Anatolius
What good does ISK do for the game? I wouldn't have to waste time doing boring stuff if battleships just magically appeared in my hangar.
You mean apart from keepting the economy running, providing risk/reward ratios for PvP and PvE and the like?
Bad analogy. Try again.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.09.02 01:21:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Anatolius
..If strategic choice in character development isn't a good enough reason..
Strategic choice between what? Between traing stuff slower and faster?
Which "strategic" would cause you to pick the first option? The only situation where you will ignore the advanced learning skills if you conscously plan your skill developement is when you make an alt with an limited skillset, so the advanced learning skills do not pay for him.
But, guess what: alts do not matter. It is not about the 2nd cyno alt of a 3 year pilot, but about the game accessibility for new players.
If you plan your char developement strategically the learning skills are not an "if" choice, but a "when" choice. The basic "strategic choice" with them is to determine when you have enough base skills to operate suffeciently in the game so you can switch to the learning skills.
"Choice" comes from "choosing". With the learning skills you do not choose between multiple alternatives, if you plan your skills consciously their are a neccessity, no option. They become mandatory - and when a skill becomes that it ceases to be a choice and becomes just a timesink.
Quote:
Why bother with an economy? It's just a waste of time. Why bother with PvE? It's just a great big waste of time. And PvP, while "fun",...
Again, bad analogy.
Quite a few people play the game because the economy. They like playing with the market, trading and finding profitable corners. Many people play the game because the PvE content. The high sec mission systems are very busy for a reason. And, of cource, many play the game because the extensive PvP.
All these options have their place in the game because there are people which like them.
Now, learning skills...I have never, ever met a person who liked them. Liked training them, to be specific. Opinion vary from "hated it" to "was halfway bearable".
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.09.02 10:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tripoli
Don't go around pretending you have to train the learning skills. It's just a good idea. You don't have to go to college and get a degree. It's just a good idea.
As said multiple times before, you do not have to do anything in the game.
But this doesn't remove problem out of existance. For example, if race X would be significantly weaker than all others you could also say that you do not have to train for other races. It's just a good idea.
This is true. But it also does not change a single bit that race X is too weak.
Likewise, while you do not have to train the learning skills you will train them sometime in your first 6 months if you plan your skill developement in any way. And training them is for new players one of the most boring and tendious phases. It's no fun to train up the learning skills.
Yes, you can make the game fun while doing that, but that is missing the point. The fun comes from the people you play with, not from the learning skills. If you could train something what would be helpful to the guild and advances your char, letting you use more stuff, etc you get "fun" from interacting with people *and* getting new skills.
Now, "removing the learning skills" is no solution. They are in the gamefor a long time and I doubt people who have invested a good amount of SPs in them would like that. But they are a thing which can drive new players from the game and makes the beginning of the game less fun (with beginning = the first 6 months, before people cry again "OMG, you do not have to learn them right at the start").
Because of this, IM(H)O *new* chars should start with the *basic* learning skills maxxed. Better game accessability for new players. If one sees any downsides of such a change feel free to speak.
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