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Learning Skills - How many people dont sub because.....

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Laythun Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:53:00 - [31] Originally by: Terraform they are tedious and to be honest, one of the most game-breaking part of the game. (it's also the main reason why new people won't stay in the game). O M G You mean to say people dont want to play because they may have to train an OPTIONAL skill in the course of there playing career!!!! Learning Skills break the game"!!! OMGOMGOMG!!! No. they dont. I didnt train mine till i had a lot of rank 1 skills sorted. They are necessary for the more advanced content, but considering that will take over a year to get into with or without learning skills. I dont see how its such a HUGE problem worthy of countless threads moaning about it, claiming that thousands of people are put off 'because' of learning skills. BS tbfh. *See You In Space Cowboy*
Vutamar Aurora Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:23:00 - [32] Dont train them you dont need them to fly anything or use any modules. They are a convenience to make training for that titan just a little quicker LOL (quick? titan training i probaly could have thought of a different word). Anyways if you dont want to spend the time, fine dont. Train for that cruiser and have fun. Nobody is making you train the learning skills first.
Flitz Farseeker Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:29:00 - [33] While I know that the learning skills will benefit me in the long run, most of mine are currently only level 2-3. I mean why should I train a learning skill for a day, when I can spend an hour to get a new skill from 0 to 1 so that I can use a module that will help me play better. Admittedly as my other skills increase and need a lot longer to train up, the learning skills are starting to look more interesting.
Estelle Matsuko Caldari The Beiatch Corp Inc	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:33:00 - [34] What puzzles me is why people spend 2 months doing the learning skills first. While you are doing that, your isk earning potential is virtually zero. Two months into the game and I have 630k lp with a L3 agent, I¦ve dabbled in COSMOS and I¦ve hauled for lowsec mining ops. It¦s been a blast all the way. First off, forget about the tier 2 learning skills. Just train the first tier to 4. Next train to fly a BC, and train the other skills needed for it. Once you have a ship that can earn you decent isk, THEN take the learning skills higher. Whilst my learning skills are being trained now, I¦m able to earn isk and do other facets of the game, whereas if i¦d spent two months just training the learning skills, i¦d be broke and bored. Oh and get evemon. Evemon is your friend.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.31 15:22:00 - [35] I got the basics only to lvl 3 first, too, and trained up for a BC to do lvl 3 missions, which took about a month. And then started going for the advanced learning skills. Got now all exept char, that will wait till I go for comamnd ships in a couple of months. But that is besides the point - no matter when you do it (and you should do it better sooner than later since the learning skills give you a significant sp growth boost) it means you'll have a skill learning downtime of 2 months where you don't get anything new what you can actaully use in the game. The time you train the learning skills is essentially one of the most stupid, most unrewarding timesinks you get in EvE. IMO it would help new players BIG TIME in starting with EVE if new chars had all basic learning skills trained to 5 per default. I really do not see how this can have anything but positive effects.
Tao Han Caldari Crucial Electronics	Posted - 2006.08.31 15:33:00 - [36] Players arent actually forced to train all learning skills to 5 at the very start, mix up the learning skills with the other skills and you will become part fo the "playerbase" faster.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.31 15:50:00 - [37] When EVE initially launched, how many skills were ingame? Right, not even the half of today, so cutting the learning curve in half would not even get us back to the original design! IMHO, CCP is being greedy on this matter. If you want more than one character, you need more than one account, and there is no option for several accounts at reduced costs, which means compared to any other game I played EVE is at least 2 times more expensive if you want more than one character. Most people will never experience others facets of the game, industry or research or combat depending on what you specialized on first, and that is bad. Nobody would leave if training times were cut in half, but many would subscribe while they won't atm. And keep your childish 'go play WoW' for yourselves, thanx. ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Kaomi Zorbaz	Posted - 2006.08.31 16:26:00 - [38] I trained all of my learning skills upto 4 and in 24 days on this charcter can fly cruisers. I could spend another 35+ days getting lvl 5 + advanced skills but who knows if I will try it. Seems like the worst of it has been a 7 day train for lvl 5 drones. I dont plan on going past BS's anyways. Maybe I am making a wrong decision, or maybe I am not. Seems like the game moves along fine for me now as is. /shrug
Pizi Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:07:00 - [39] i tryed to get my daoc gield and the wow ally into eve only one complained about the steep learning all the others who tried it out said its a beautiful game but kinda boring to do long travel times EVEpedia [Deutsch] Say no to BMs
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:16:00 - [40] Originally by: Galus Quarto Edited by: Galus Quarto on 31/08/2006 03:13:25 The whole learning skills thing is really presented to new players in a poor fashion by the more vetern players. Yes, they will save time in the long run - but there is no need to train them to the extent that new players are instructed right off the bat. Train the basic learning skills to level 4 after you finish your two week trial and get some essential skills under your belt. After you have them to level 4, train your skills as you would for a few months so you can actually play the game. Not all of us say "grind the hell out of learning ASAP"... Infact we normally get a crap load of static on the forums from the "need to compete, I will get left behind, but its more eficent this way..." mob... Train the learning skills whenits useful for you to do so, don'ttry and max them from the get go as you will have very little fun and get bored... basicly If you feel bored doing nothing but the learning skills STOP DOING THEM AND TRAIN SOMETHING ELSE!!!!! Download evemon and see how little time it actually saves you for basic skills. I personally would not do them past lvl 3 till you got your feet under you...this mini rant is not aimed at the post I am repling to... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self

Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:23:00 - [41] Originally by: nahtoh ...I personally would not do them past lvl 3 till you got your feet under you...this mini rant is not aimed at the post I am repling to... The thing is that this does not matter. If you do them at once or after three months, what you get is identical. 2 months of effective "downtime" where your char does not really advance. Even if you mix a learning skill, a "real" skill, a learning skill..you still have the same result. The learning skills phase is then slightly less painfull, but also longer. No difference effeciently.
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:28:00 - [42] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: nahtoh ...I personally would not do them past lvl 3 till you got your feet under you...this mini rant is not aimed at the post I am repling to... The thing is that this does not matter. If you do them at once or after three months, what you get is identical. 2 months of effective "downtime" where your char does not really advance. Even if you mix a learning skill, a "real" skill, a learning skill..you still have the same result. The learning skills phase is then slightly less painfull, but also longer. No difference effeciently. But you don't screw yourself over fun wise...thats the point viruatully all the "you must grind the skills ASAP" morons seem to miss while complaining about NOT HAVING ANY FUN while training the damm things... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Soraya Silvermoon	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:28:00 - [43] What is the point of learing skills? everyone have to train em to advanced lvl4 anyway... and they give you absolutly nothing! And its skills you should train right away so ppl have to train em while their noobs to gain something from them. I would understand it if.. noobs started with advanced lvl4 per default as a bonus since old players have had longer time to train but they dont so there is no point in them. their a time sink and a pain for everyone. Please remove them! and sure give everyone 10p extra stats but still remove them.
Ellandrian D'Amerathe	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:31:00 - [44] It all depends on perspective... There are a number of us around who came from EQ, I sit in a channel nightly with several who were at or near the top of that game in their time and most of us, even new folks coming in to Eve right now, love the skill system as is. Of course coming from EQ, we were used to delayed gratification and nightly hard core exp or trade skill grinds and spending months to be able to do anything. Eve is simple, set a skill to train, go have some fun and not worry about killing 55 goblins per hour for 12 hours to get to level 31 knowing it gets worse as you progress. Best of all about Eve, set a skill to train to level 5 and leave on business for 3 or 4 days, no lost time skilling up, in EQ business trips at a bad time, such as a new expansion could put me a week behind my guild and render me unable to raid. I personally never bought in to the whole "spend your first month training learning skills". I tended to train towards the ability to accomplish a task, such as fitting my thorax the way I wanted, then I'd kick over to learning for a while until the next task presented itself. I'd say it worked out pretty well for me and certainly did not drive me out of the game. The learning skills are a fantastic help, I eventually got all of the advanced learning skills to 4, but I think it is better to wait a bit and have a little fun, or break them down in to more reasonable chunks than try to min/max your character from the outset by doing nothing else in your first month and a half.
Soraya Silvermoon	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:39:00 - [45] fantastic help? woiuldent it be more fantastic to not have to train em and still have the stats you get with them? They help with nothing that has to do with the game. they only take away time from the one who need em and that hurts new players in particular.. I`m 3 years old in this game and its stupid becasue I have skills to fly most things and can afford to spend time on advanced lvl4-5. and this only place me even further in front of the ppl that start the game now. they are no help they only hurt the experience of the game!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:42:00 - [46] Originally by: nahtoh But you don't screw yourself over fun wise...thats the point viruatully all the "you must grind the skills ASAP" morons seem to miss while complaining about NOT HAVING ANY FUN while training the damm things... Again, it does not matter when you do it. Training the learning skills up sucks if you do it right at the start, sucks if you do it after a months, sucks if you do it after half a year. They are a dumb downtime which is reducing your game enjoyment, does not matter when it happens.
Antigen Po legion of qui Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:55:00 - [47] Originally by: Galus Quarto Edited by: Galus Quarto on 31/08/2006 03:13:25 The whole learning skills thing is really presented to new players in a poor fashion by the more vetern players. Yes, they will save time in the long run - but there is no need to train them to the extent that new players are instructed right off the bat. Train the basic learning skills to level 4 after you finish your two week trial and get some essential skills under your belt. After you have them to level 4, train your skills as you would for a few months so you can actually play the game. Once you've reached four or five million skillpoints, then start the long haul training for the advanced learning skills. This is how I trained my main, and sure I may have a few less skill points than other players of my age, but the difference really is hardly worth mentioning and I had much more fun during my early months. Now, with my alt it's a different story. Looking back on the last 4 months this is how I would do it if I had to do it over. I spent the majority of my first 2.5 months of playtime training most of my attributes up to advanced lvl 4. It was frustrating to see friends who started about the same time I did flying around in battleships while I was still in a cruiser. I almost quit the game out of boredom. In the long run I think getting the basic skills to lvl 4 makes sense, but putting in the extra time to get the advanced ones to lvl 4 can be very frustrating to a new player & looking back now I wouldnt recommend doing it right off the bat.
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:04:00 - [48] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: nahtoh But you don't screw yourself over fun wise...thats the point viruatully all the "you must grind the skills ASAP" morons seem to miss while complaining about NOT HAVING ANY FUN while training the damm things... Again, it does not matter when you do it. Training the learning skills up sucks if you do it right at the start, sucks if you do it after a months, sucks if you do it after half a year. They are a dumb downtime which is reducing your game enjoyment, does not matter when it happens. They are a option, nothing more nothing less I think of them as a implant you can't ever lose...They don't reduce my fun becasue i was not so stupid as to think of them as a essential part of the game experiance. I first trained the advanced skills because i lost a bunch of implants a couple of times. They are nothing more or less than non volitle implants and like Implants you don't need to use them if you don't like the trade off... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Paper Airplane Aurum Technologies Limited Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:14:00 - [49] Edited by: Paper Airplane on 31/08/2006 18:16:25 imo the learning curve is very steep, but it really has nothing to do with skills. This game has so much depth that you just need to spend awhile playing it (2 week trial isn't enough) to really start to understand it and see how great it is. So yes, you can be good in gang PvP with minimal skills and a tackler frigate...and there are many ways to make ISK, especially in 0.0. However it takes awhile to figure all that out and in the meantime it's hard to see the long term value in the game.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:23:00 - [50] Edited by: Aramendel on 31/08/2006 18:23:45 Originally by: nahtoh They are a option, nothing more nothing less... They are the most effecient way to maximize your skill training. You could "as an option" also transport 5 mil trit with a shuttle instead with an indy. But you would be rather stupid if you do it that way. Just because you do not have to do it does not mean you should not do it. That something "is only an option" does not change anything here. For example, you could make one races ships 10 times better than everything else. But, hey, it would not matter since training for other ships is only an option. Everyone can train for the stronger ships after all. Bad gamedesign is bad gamedesign, does not matter if the thing in question is mandatory or not. And nvmd that in the end the learning skills are mandatory. Sure, you do not have to learn them. But then you can see your SP grow with about the same speed as you transport 5 mil trit with a shuttle. This is no option, this is either being stupid or not.

Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:43:00 - [51] The learning skills are just a timesink, a frontloaded one at that. Newbies don't have to train them right off the bat, but even one with a half a brain will understand that the earlier you start them the better. You'll get maximum benefit from the learning skills if you train them from the very start, and zero benefit if they are the last skills you train. The price you pay is a two month halt in skill progression. An easy fix to this solution would be to drop the level V requirement for advanced learning skills. That would allow a newbie to get 80% of available attribute boostage for roughly 25% of the training time. A better fix would be to remove the learning skills completely, boost everyone's attributes by +11, and refund skill points to those that already had the skills trained. This would kill the timesink, but may be harder to implement.
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:49:00 - [52] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 31/08/2006 18:23:45 Originally by: nahtoh They are a option, nothing more nothing less... They are the most effecient way to maximize your skill training. You could "as an option" also transport 5 mil trit with a shuttle instead with an indy. But you would be rather stupid if you do it that way. Just because you do not have to do it does not mean you should not do it. That something "is only an option" does not change anything here. For example, you could make one races ships 10 times better than everything else. But, hey, it would not matter since training for other ships is only an option. Everyone can train for the stronger ships after all. Bad gamedesign is bad gamedesign, does not matter if the thing in question is mandatory or not. And nvmd that in the end the learning skills are mandatory. Sure, you do not have to learn them. But then you can see your SP grow with about the same speed as you transport 5 mil trit with a shuttle. This is no option, this is either being stupid or not. They are not mandatory in any way shape or form...there is nothing in this game that requires you to train the learning skills. They are a option which is there for you to use nothing more. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:02:00 - [53] If people want to kill their fun in the first month(s) of play so they can train faster later, they are free to do that. Imho it is pretty stupid though, and if you alternate learning with useful skills during your early days you get to advance in the game and only lose a few SP which is more than made up for by additional ISK that you earn and more fun that you have with better 'applied' skills. So really nothing wrong with learning. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Vasco Falcon	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:17:00 - [54] Many thanks for the feedback gents(im OP btw didnt mean to post on that toon) personally im still very strongly of the opinion that the game would be alot better of without learning skills but i dunno if CCCP share this opinion, anyways now training Battle Cruisers lvl 3 ^^
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:20:00 - [55] Originally by: Mike Moss For me, the point really is, why are the learning skills there in the first place as skills that the player must spend precious skill time learning? I've read several threads on this topic and I still don't like the learning skills. Yep, cut the learning skills. It's only a prerequisite timesink, all it allows you to do is play the game. Two/Three months of nothing should not be a prereq to the game. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Rangkai	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:24:00 - [56] I trained up a couple levels of learning skills early in the game to give a little boost to the skills I wanted to train. Then, when I decided that I really liked eve and wanted to play it for a very long time, I invested more time into learning skills. But not so much that I do not have fun. Learning skills are good to set during downtime, or when you are undecided on what skill you want to build up next.
Kalixa Hihro	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:04:00 - [57] Originally by: Qumu I'm a new player as well. I found that by being part of 0.0 based corp I was able to get into the action of Eve immediately. Sure I may play the role of a tackler a lot. But that is a very important job, and one that doesn't require a lot of skill to be passable. My char only has 2.8 million SP and a few dozen pvp kills under his belt. While this may be low, average, or whatever, I just wanted to point out that even new players can partake in PVP and make a fair amount of ISk ratting and mining in 0.0 space. The important part is to find a balance between fun and efficiency. Only you can determine what that is. Qumu /signed I've been playing for over a year and still fly tacklers. I love small ships. I can fly a tech 2 sniperthron but still have the most fun tackling. I can often be seen in an Ares tackling. I also fly interdictors if no one else will. -Kal /----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ My opinion in no way represents that of my corp or anyone I am associated with, and is probably entirely wrong.
Dnaltrop Nogero	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:31:00 - [58] Copying this from the discussion forums 'cos I'm too lazy to type basically the same thing twice. ~~~~ Originally by: Dnaltrop Nogero Fun is as Fun does. At my start, I went out, and in 4 days was flying a punisher in .5 making money on true sansha spawns. 5 days in, I was graced with a slave implant drop, and a TS web. 10 days in these items were converted to ISK and I was flying my Coercer into .4 and .3 space to casually rat with no skill in excess of 3. 2 months later I flew out of low-ish sec, having only lost 2 ships, kept my original pod (from being as nervous as a 9 tailed cat in a rocking-chair store), and sitting on nearly 750m in ISK Then I found out about advanced learning skills, bought a set of +3's, trained up a bare-minimum skillset to fly an Apocalypse for chain-running level 3 missions (also good money), and then sat and ground out the adv 4's. Why YES, I DID feel like a complete raging moron for not training up to adv 4 in all learning skills. Right now I could be sitting on 2-3m more SP. It did not reduce my enjoyment of the game one iota. Noob does not mean "helpless and bored". Just being willing to go out in a frigate, a destroyer, or a cruiser... even with half-assed skills still made me a comparatively wealthy noob at the time. All you need is the willpower to stick your nose where you probably should not, the good humor to accept that you WILL be shot at by absolute strangers for no other reason than they were able to lock you fast enough, and the gonads to get back on your missile-and-bullet riddled horse and get back into the fray. Admittedly, I am having MORE fun now, but I'm also enjoying the collecting of various baseline skills before trying to push for a Cerberus, or saving ISK for a Guardian-Vexor, or a Navy Raven. The variety of play (if you can't quite manage to focus on a single goal) is simply staggering. My biggest problem is trying to focus on a SINGLE ship and go with it. Yes, if I had put all my sp into a single race I'd be shooting Tech II whatever, decloaking my covert-ops, etc, etc, etc... the important thing is I'm ENJOYING my game. Good learning skills and a decent implant set gave me the choice to spend 8 days here and there to train up a Dominix or a Tempest just for the "fun" of having them. The learning skills are nice, but for someone who's checking the game out, hardly needed in any measure. When they make the choice to go for the long haul... THEN it's time to work on speed. You appreciate it more when you achieve it, even if the wait drives you nuts. Hello, my name is Dnaltrop (~Spaceships Anonymous group in unison~ "Hi Dnaltrop") and I'm (sob) an obsessive-compulsive collector of all 4 races skillbooks... But it still is a helluva lot of fun. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Another point on not starting new characters out with faster training... It DOES keep the constant churn of Free-Trial alts at a lower level of lethality, otherwise you'd see (more) people running 6 free alts at once in caracals nuking people in high sec with no repurcussions. Happy Contrails ~~~~ You are the only person who sets your path, save the boring parts for a week or 3 to allow you to go play in low complexes, or be a tackler for your PvP friends with the Super-Killya rays trained already. ~~~~ Men often decieve themselves in believing that by humility, they can overcome insolence. She's not your satellite, she doesn't miss you. Cannot invite self... It is much more efficient to tal
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:59:00 - [59] Edited by: Aramendel on 31/08/2006 21:07:24 Originally by: nahtoh They are not mandatory in any way shape or form...there is nothing in this game that requires you to train the learning skills. They are a option which is there for you to use nothing more. Redundant argument because nothing in the game is madatory. As said, you also could try to transport 5 mil trit in a shuttle instead of an indy. You could choose not to use an indy, but you would be stupid not to. Same with learning skills. ----------- The keypoint really is: Do learning skills enrich the game in any way? Would removing the basic ones and simply giving all chars +5 to all attributes have negative effects? Would letting new chars start with the basic learning skills at lvl 5 remove any "fun" aspect for them?
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:29:00 - [60] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 31/08/2006 21:07:24 Originally by: nahtoh They are not mandatory in any way shape or form...there is nothing in this game that requires you to train the learning skills. They are a option which is there for you to use nothing more. Redundant argument because nothing in the game is madatory. As said, you also could try to transport 5 mil trit in a shuttle instead of an indy. You could choose not to use an indy, but you would be stupid not to. Same with learning skills. ----------- The keypoint really is: Do learning skills enrich the game in any way? Would removing the basic ones and simply giving all chars +5 to all attributes have negative effects? Would letting new chars start with the basic learning skills at lvl 5 remove any "fun" aspect for them? The keypoint is why cater to the ADD power lvlers? Treat the learning skills like a non-remoavble implants...its the idea behind them...remove the thought that you can't be compete with out them...its quite false... They were brought in to help with lowering the skill times for the higher rank skills. God help the whinners when they start to hit really high ranked skills to lvl 5. You see them as a problem, I see them as choice I have to decrease my training time when I feel like training them. I also see a problem if the devs cave in over this...A slippery slope for the next demand for making things more "effective training"... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self



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