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Is it fun to create pain?

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Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:19:00 - [1] I read frequently, that players state that it majorly contributes to their fun ingame, to cause pain to others. Since the avatar ingame does not feel any pain at all, that can only be addressed to the other player at his computer, who suffers from the actions of those who like to inflict pain. Although it is obvious that our ingame actions in the first place only have ingame consequences, everybody sitting at their computer knows, that ingame action directly affects the person at the keyboard, be it satisfaction and joy for a succesful operation, be it anger or depression because of a loss or a failed operation. It is the person at home at his keyboard, who playes EVE, and he does not play against an unconscious computer generated NPC in the context of this thread, but against another player in a different home at a different computer. This game is only a graphical representation of the moves of players at their computers, it is interaction of player against player, of a human being against another human being. So, now there are players, who state that they like to inflict pain. Others do not state it, but just do it. They know exactly about the consequences of their action to the opponent. They get satisfaction about the fact, that their succesful action makes the other feel miserable. Making the other feel miserable is actually a major part of having success for many of those players. For them it is not fun to destroy a ship or scam ISK from someone, who just does not care. This is, what I'm concerned about, and what I would like to discuss: It is obvious, that some players deliberatly try to make other players feel miserable. It is also obvious, that this is on a real life level, not roleplayed ingame. Nobody tries to make a NPC feel miserable, cause this guys just do not care. Why do people like do create pain to other people? This is, what I do not understand. I don't like to create pain to others, and I know, what I do ingame to other players affect them in their real life. So I personally just cannot simply say, it is only a game, it does no harm. What I do here, is subject to the same ethics and morals we should stick to in real life. And creating pain definitly does not have a place in that rulesets. I do not want to ban those players from the game. Just the contrary, they are what make this game running. I'm only wondering, how people can like to be cruel. I don't understand this. And I'm wondering, if I should try to understand them, or if I just should continue to despise and fight them. Juwi Kotch
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:23:00 - [2] I like to make people explode. I know exactly how that feels. I don't have a problem with that. When they signed up for eve, they signed up for everything I can (and will) throw at them. It's a game. I'm part of the game. If you can't stand to lose it, don't fly it, because I WILL shoot at you. I do not consider myself a cruel person, and would never dream of wilfully inflicting pain on an innocent person in real life. Hey that sig reminds me of my tempest - Xorus
Vile rat Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:24:00 - [3] Because the threat of loss, be it to your target or the loss you risk yourself, makes this game matter on levels that simply making a coded 1 turn into a 0 does not. Knowing that the ship I'm blowing up has a person somewhere in the world screaming in fury makes this more than a simple console game and makes it truly an interactive experience. Watching local as your target rambles in a furious tone about all the pain you inflicted reinforces this and adds to the enjoyment. It's really not about inflicting pain in the end, it's about influencing your world and knowing that it's been influenced.
Michiyo Daishi Royal Knights of Khanid	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:25:00 - [4] Originally by: Juwi Kotch So, now there are players, who state that they like to inflict pain. Others do not state it, but just do it. They know exactly about the consequences of their action to the opponent. They get satisfaction about the fact, that their succesful action makes the other feel miserable. Making the other feel miserable is actually a major part of having success for many of those players. For them it is not fun to destroy a ship or scam ISK from someone, who just does not care. This is, what I'm concerned about, and what I would like to discuss: It is obvious, that some players deliberatly try to make other players feel miserable. It is also obvious, that this is on a real life level, not roleplayed ingame. Nobody tries to make a NPC feel miserable, cause this guys just do not care. Why do people like do create pain to other people? This is, what I do not understand. Take a good look at reality and humanity. See the news about murdur, theft, assault, etc? See how people can be downright evil IRL? They're people too, right? Now who plays EVE? People, right? Question, answered - want a sig like mine? 5m! Woot first, maybe Eris will poke it later - Xorus I¦ll be gentle *WHIPS* that was me being gentle -eris
Sonho	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:25:00 - [5] Yes its fun ,you might try it sometime.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:27:00 - [6] I still dont understand why people get upset if they lose anything? Its a game, its not real! so yeah you lost some isk and yeah you lost the time it took you to get that isk.. but who cares? Nobody can take away the fun you had making that isk. Unless you didnt have fun but then why would someone play a game if he/she isnt enjoying it. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Vile rat Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain I still dont understand why people get upset if they lose anything? Its a game, its not real! so yeah you lost some isk and yeah you lost the time it took you to get that isk.. but who cares? Nobody can take away the fun you had making that isk. Unless you didnt have fun but then why would someone play a game if he/she isnt enjoying it. I hate going to work but I love getting a paycheck so I can buy things. Same principle. I hate making ISK, but I love buying toys to blow stuff up.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain so yeah you lost some isk and yeah you lost the time it took you to get that isk.. but who cares? Nobody can take away the fun you had making that isk. Unless you didnt have fun but then why would someone play a game if he/she isnt enjoying it. And so the greatest mystery of grinding MMOs is brought up again. And no-one ever seems to be able to answer. So many people say they hate doing something in game. WELL STOP THEN, K? Hey that sig reminds me of my tempest - Xorus
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: Joshua Foiritain I still dont understand why people get upset if they lose anything? Its a game, its not real! so yeah you lost some isk and yeah you lost the time it took you to get that isk.. but who cares? Nobody can take away the fun you had making that isk. Unless you didnt have fun but then why would someone play a game if he/she isnt enjoying it. I hate going to work but I love getting a paycheck so I can buy things. Same principle. I hate making ISK, but I love buying toys to blow stuff up. So why not make ISK in a way you enjoy? Hey that sig reminds me of my tempest - Xorus
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:34:00 - [10] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 01/09/2006 10:34:25 Originally by: Verus Potestas And so the greatest mystery of grinding MMOs is brought up again. And no-one ever seems to be able to answer. So many people say they hate doing something in game. WELL STOP THEN, K? Guess you have a good point there. Tbh id rather make a little isk by having fun then a lot by being grinding some boring complex for weeks in a row. I guess if you grinded a plex for weeks so you could buy your favorite shiponly to lose it shortly after one could get upset Of course, rather then smacktalking the person that killed you people should probably review their play style, theres obviously something wrong. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Elfman AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:35:00 - [11] I never feel any pain from loosing ships. Probably because I go out and activly look for PvP. Having the mind set of this ship will only last till I am outplayed, do something stupid, am drunk, get lagged out, ganked or to tired to play and being stubbon and still playing probably has a lot to do with it. Its a old rule but if you cant afford to loose it dont fly it really does make life a lot more fun and less painfull. I also dont shoot other ships to cause the person on the other end any pain. I do PvP for the adrenaline rush and general Woot I won oops I lost feeling. It could be that people who state they kill peeps to kill pain are only bragging on the forums and trying to make people fear there in game character more or role play? Ahh damn wandered of track with my post again. Shouldnt post at work with boss wandering around and having to keep on minimising the browser
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:36:00 - [12] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain I still dont understand why people get upset if they lose anything? Its a game, its not real! so yeah you lost some isk and yeah you lost the time it took you to get that isk.. but who cares? Nobody can take away the fun you had making that isk. Unless you didnt have fun but then why would someone play a game if he/she isnt enjoying it. It's not about getting upset to loose something. It's about getting satisfaction about the fact, that one can make someone upset about loosing something. I'm talking about the happy people, not the sad people. If it would be just about blowing up things, everybody would PvE, you can blow up much more much easily there. If it would be only about PvP, people would not shoot on rookie ships or capsules, since that has no reward at all. It is about the wish to inflict pain. And this is, what I do not understand. How can people wish to inflict pain? Juwi Kotch
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:37:00 - [13] Originally by: Juwi Kotch If it would be only about PvP, people would not shoot on rookie ships or capsules, since that has no reward at all. Sir, I beg to differ. Hey that sig reminds me of my tempest - Xorus
Vile rat Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:38:00 - [14] So why not make ISK in a way you enjoy? Game mechanics don't reward me with ISK for every beer I drink. I've tried, just doesn't work.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Juwi Kotch It's not about getting upset to loose something. It's about getting satisfaction about the fact, that one can make someone upset about loosing something. I'm talking about the happy people, not the sad people. If it would be just about blowing up things, everybody would PvE, you can blow up much more much easily there. If it would be only about PvP, people would not shoot on rookie ships or capsules, since that has no reward at all. It is about the wish to inflict pain. And this is, what I do not understand. How can people wish to inflict pain? The objective is more important then the reward. Rookie ships are alt scouts, alt scouts are bad for you because your enemy will have useful info to work with. Hence they die. Escape pods contain a clone and implants, the new clone could also be very far away. Want to defeat your enemy? Make sure he cant afford to fight back, inflict as much damage as you can. If my enemies feel pain over his losses i feel sorry for them, i will still inflict as much possible damage to them as possible though. Why? Because i play to win and in order to win i need to reach my/my corporations objectives. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Michiyo Daishi Royal Knights of Khanid	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:39:00 - [16] take this into perspective: A person is smart, good, able to take care of himself with common sense. People are dumb, evil, and can barely stand on their own legs without someone pointing the way (often the wrong way). Who play EVE? Persons including you and I, corpmates, and friends. At the same time People. - want a sig like mine? 5m! Woot first, maybe Eris will poke it later - Xorus I¦ll be gentle *WHIPS* that was me being gentle -eris
AlexMarketAlt	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:40:00 - [17] For me its the same as shooting people or getting shot in a FPS, Its a game and isk is nothing more than monopoly money.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:40:00 - [18] Originally by: Vile rat Game mechanics don't reward me with ISK for every beer I drink. I've tried, just doesn't work. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Negrim	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:40:00 - [19] There is a basic flaw to the argument: If you feel "pain" or "misery" from your participation in this game and from being on the receiving end of a cannon, then you should not be playing. The game's dynamics revolve around gain and loss. Whether players who cause loss to others feel a form of satisfaction, is their private business and shouldn't be of any concern to others. Afterall, they are merely keeping the wheel spinning.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:41:00 - [20] Edited by: Verus Potestas on 01/09/2006 10:41:21 Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: Verus Potestas So why not make ISK in a way you enjoy? Game mechanics don't reward me with ISK for every beer I drink. I've tried, just doesn't work. What about piracy? What about blowing up NPCers? What about any of the myriad ways of making ISK through PvP, if that is what you like doing... Hey that sig reminds me of my tempest - Xorus
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:41:00 - [21] Pain is life. Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Juwi Kotch If it would be only about PvP, people would not shoot on rookie ships or capsules, since that has no reward at all. Sir, I beg to differ. Care to elaborate? Juwi Kotch
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Juwi Kotch Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Juwi Kotch If it would be only about PvP, people would not shoot on rookie ships or capsules, since that has no reward at all. Sir, I beg to differ. Care to elaborate? Juwi Kotch BPOs (a thing of the past), +4/+5 sets, hauling alts etc. Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:45:00 - [24] I feel pain when the football team that I support loses. Being an Ipswich supporter, I must be some sort of masochist But just because supporters and players feel pain when their team loses, does that mean that all matches should be draws? Of course not, because without the pain of defeat, you cannot have the ecstasy of victory. Eve is a bit like that. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:46:00 - [25] Originally by: Juwi Kotch Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Juwi Kotch If it would be only about PvP, people would not shoot on rookie ships or capsules, since that has no reward at all. Sir, I beg to differ. Care to elaborate? Pods can be ransomed, bounties can be collected, corpses can be sold to enemies. Still, pods aren't what very profitable. Nubships and shuttles, on the other hand, can drop shiny stuff Hey that sig reminds me of my tempest - Xorus
Vile rat Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:47:00 - [26] Originally by: Verus Potestas Edited by: Verus Potestas on 01/09/2006 10:41:21 Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: Verus Potestas So why not make ISK in a way you enjoy? Game mechanics don't reward me with ISK for every beer I drink. I've tried, just doesn't work. What about piracy? What about blowing up NPCers? What about any of the myriad ways of making ISK through PvP, if that is what you like doing... Piracy doesn't really net a whole heck of a lot of money these days and so far blowing up NPC'ers has been fun, but unprofitable. Luckily I'm at a point where money isn't a huge concern anymore and I can spend most of my time doing the fun stuff.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:47:00 - [27] Originally by: Michiyo Daishi take this into perspective: A person is smart, good, able to take care of himself with common sense. People are dumb, evil, and can barely stand on their own legs without someone pointing the way (often the wrong way). Who play EVE? Persons including you and I, corpmates, and friends. At the same time People. I'm afraid, you're just right. Juwi Kotch
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:48:00 - [28] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Juwi Kotch Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Juwi Kotch If it would be only about PvP, people would not shoot on rookie ships or capsules, since that has no reward at all. Sir, I beg to differ. Care to elaborate? Pods can be ransomed, bounties can be collected, corpses can be sold to enemies. Still, pods aren't what very profitable. Nubships and shuttles, on the other hand, can drop shiny stuff People still move those in shuttles? Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:51:00 - [29] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 01/09/2006 10:52:15 Originally by: Epsilon 1 People still move those in shuttles? People always have and always will transport expensive things in poorely equipped ships. There will always be people to kill them and take their things. And because of that there will always be people who whine about how unfair PVP is or how overpowered some ship is. In the end, one can only blame him or her self. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Sharcy Sonnema	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:55:00 - [30] Darn, thought this was a BDSM-topic... Seriously though... Pain? Through an online game? Sure, I get **ed when I loose stuff, but it's still a game, and an ONLINE game. If you can't stand the interaction with other people and thereby sometimes losing (stuff, your life, dignity), don't play an online game. If you don't like getting bumped at, don't ride the bumper cars at the fair. Same thing. -- Sonnema is recruiting!**

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