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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:09:00 -
[1]
Id have to agree for many reasons. WHile im relatively new i picked matar because i like to have fast/agile ships. It is true that matar ships have lowest sig in their class and also faster than the rest of the ships in theyr class; however....we only have 2 ships that actually make use of the so-called speed we are supposed to have. Im not asking to place a speed bonus to all ships, but id sure like to see it more often. The problem comes down to what was stated above, our bonuses are there to make up for the crap dps we get; which in many ways is the same problem amar has w its cap bonus. Its there to LET us use our guns effectively. Many will argue the fact we have all dmg types but realistically w low dps it makes less of a difference. There are not many times where people are gonna change ammo in mid battle because at times its practically suicide (forget the fact that AC run out of ammo before they ever kill anything "in some cases"). Dont get me wrong i dont intend of making a whine out of it as a matter of fact im happy w the race im playing, but seeing as other races fit their niche so well, yet our race gets stuck w stupid split wep systems and bonuses that are there to let us have some sort of damage it is sometime frustrating to have a gun bonus yet u can only use 3 gus cuz the other 2 slots r missles.....honestly wtf...
My suggestion: (and i think its a fair wish to ask)
-raise matar ships base speed slightly (maybe 20-30 m/s)
-raise matar base damage for guns (this way some gun bonuses may go to other fields that we can use: speed/web/TP w/e)
Our EW is meant to be webbing/TP (as much as people hate TP i find it usefull at times). Therefor if our gun dmg was higher we could use some bonuses for webbing range or effectiveness w/e). Id keep ROF bonuses since were really not meant to be uber tanks in any way; our forte should be skirmish, we come in fast as hell go for high ROF/dencent dmg and get out.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:19:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
Originally by: Kunming
Minmatar are not a DPS race, neither are caldari, get it out of your head man..
so what sorta race are minmatar then?
caldari has 100% hit and highes range.
minmatar bs have crappy hybrid tanks and crappy speed as every bs has.
Sad but true 
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:33:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jezala
I have always been on the opinion that Minmatars excel at 3 things:
1. Tactical Flexibility
2. Complimenting Caldari ships.
3. Fast ships
I agree that we may have a certain flexibility to our ships, but some of the other races have a bit of it too while excelling very well in certain areas. I understand many will say that we have speed on our side, but honestly most of the times its only 20 m/s more than the other races ships. We cant really tank as great as the other races and thats just fine but id like to see more speed added and some dmg increase to our guns. That way our ship bonuses can be used for more usefull things rather than just latting us use em.
also.....PLZ FIX 425MM CPP!!!!!!!!!!!
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:47:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Azerrad
Edited by: Azerrad on 01/09/2006 21:41:53
A. We Are Devo!
Minmatar are faster than their counterparts, but its not enough to be called a meaningful advantage. The main problem with Minmatar in my mind lies in projectiles and their base stats. While it takes two (2!) damage bonuses to bring projectiles in line with other weapons, that precludes Minmatar ships from having decent DPS and a meaningful second bonus at the same time. Furthermore, there are only a small fraction of Minmatar ships that actually get both damage bonuses.
Projectile base damage needs a 25% increase and the damage bonus needs to be dropped from Minmatar ships just the RoF bonus to even out projectile DPS. Then we can add a second useful bonus to Minmatar ships (tracking? agility? speed? transfer 5% of typhoons shield hp to armor per level?).
Heres a few bonuses we can put on with the free'd up space:
5% speed increase
5% webber range or efficiency w/e
5% agility increase ( i can see the hail of flames coming down)
Thats to name a few. Oh yeah stop making all matar ships split weapon systems thats part of the reason we suck at dmg...cuz our so-called wep bonuses only benefits 3/4 of the weapons on the ship...
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 00:15:00 -
[5]
/Agreed
while our ships have a small advantage in speed it rly doesnt work out as well as it should..
take alook at ships that actually work for matar:
Tempest: regardless of how u fit it, it can survive only cuz it has an ability to put on a good tank.
Phoon: (regardless of what people say) it works out due to the fact its the smallest of the bs and again it can mount a decent tank.
Rupture: 2 wep bonuses to make it work and it can tank very well.
Stabber: relatively limited but the speed on this baby makes it a wonderful ship even though id love another mid slot for it.
Rifter: again it had 2 wep bonuses.
Ive only bothered w t1s since i think most of em r ok atm xcept maybe muninn but thats another topic.
As u can see the ships that really shine are ships which can tank, something which i dont mind yet doesnt fit with matar's concept. IN either case none of those ships can tank as good as theyr other couterparts xcept maybe the rupture. In bs class most other battleships will outclass the tempest/phoon.
The only thing matar needs is a true speed/agility bonus. we are not a true tanking class therefore we depend on our agility/speed to decrease damage taken. As for dps, yes it needs to be boosted perhaps by 20%. Get rid of the dmg bonus and leave rof and thus leaving some other usefull bonuses which we could use.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 05:54:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Ive said it many times before... I dont feel minmatar have a good role in this game. Alpha strike and speed doesnt feel enough to define the race.
Speed is what the race has going for it, so you can avoid damage, but unfortunantly our guns doesnt track very well at high speeds. And the best ship ever for speedy operations, the Vagabond, is basicly considered overpowered despite it has no tank and low dps.
At least its a FUN race, but I feel the "jack of all trades" isnt very valuable or even true.
What Jim said.
/agreed
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 16:47:00 -
[7]
If other races are gonna post about crap ships they have realize that no one at any point has stated that minmatar are the only ones w he crap ships. However when it comes down to numbers our race has a deficiency in the amounts of ships that r truly worth it. This OP only asks for something all matar want and thats a true identity. Our race is not supposed to outclass any other race in tanking (armor:amar/gallente shield:caldari) while our ships do allow for tanking none of ours can compare to the same ship from another race. So the point of matar having higher speed is to avoid damage to balance the deficience in armor/shield matar have and we simply dont have enought to make a true difference (and for godsake dont mention vaga/stabber cuz its already stated those r fast enough). Another big problem is the fact that turret traking doesnt go well w speed therefore it should be noted that if a base speed increase is made then an increase in AC/Art tracking should be made to keep up. ONLY when the speed bonus is made as a ship bonus should an extra traking bonus be placed on the ship itself, otherwise it should be based of the guns traking.
Dont get me wrong i will speciallize in matar because for me its my favorite race. BUt when i picked this race i did so because i wanted to have speed and tbh the speed difference between races (unless ur comparing amar to matar) is nominal. Its simply not enough to make a difference. And skills wont do anything either becase all races have acces to those same skills therefore the gap is relatively the same. Im not asking to make matar uber and wtfbbqhotsaucebadass but what i do what is our rac to have an IDENTITY and since CCP says our forte is speed, then i want to see it make a difference.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 20:24:00 -
[8]
Do we honestly even need to go through all this just to prove that ACs r underpowered? I mean just read all the posts ever made at how ever race jokes about us and how projectile (though flexible w ammo) have crap dps and need "2"...yes u saw it right 2 damage bonuses to even get close to being decent.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 21:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/09/2006 20:46:12
Originally by: Rehmes
Do we honestly even need to go through all this just to prove that ACs r underpowered? I mean just read all the posts ever made at how ever race jokes about us and how projectile (though flexible w ammo) have crap dps and need "2"...yes u saw it right 2 damage bonuses to even get close to being decent.
I dont know if they are underpowered, but they have big problems delivering enough thermal damage to out-dps the Raven using 2 invuln + EM hardener. Projectiles are still good vs armor though.. and luckily most people are armor tanking. :)
True but im not asking for a huge power buff to matar, i simply want our ships to be able to have decent damage w/o having to use up 2 of the bonuses to do so. If u look at it they wanna call us "versatile" but honestly if u have a ship w both bonuses dedicated to making sure its guns ever penetrate any armor then u lose another bonus which could in fact give the ship more versatility. On the other hand my main arguement is what the OP stated. We hare supposed to be the fastest race (which is true) but the truth is that its practically a nonfactor (vaga/stab dont count DONT ANYONE USE THAT ARGUEMENT). That means that we as a race have no true niche 10-20 m/s faster than the rest is nothing (and yes i know skills/ab/mwd help but all races have the asame things available to them.
What i want:
-Increase all matar ships base speed/agility (thats our only true way of tanking for godsake, we simply dont compare to the others in either shield or armor)
-INcrease the base dmg of our guns (they dont have to necessarily be on-par w hybrids, simply enough to not have to use the gun bonuses to be useful)
-Our race's Ew is TP/Web id like our ships to have web bonuses (btw CCP either fix TP so it actually helps matar, cuz honestly caldari get better use of it than we do; or give us scramble EW bonuses on some ships)
With that said our race doesnt outclass anyone in armor/shield/power but it does in fact have a way to defent itself w migher speed/agility and w decent enough damage to be a factor.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 22:01:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Rehmes on 02/09/2006 22:02:45
Edited by: Rehmes on 02/09/2006 22:02:26
Originally by: Instagib
Not that I fly nor spec in minmatar, but changes I would personally be interested in seeing would be something like:
-Increased speed (+10-30%)
-Lowered signature (-5-15%)
I really favor those two over damage increase, though I would like to see:
-Rof ROF bonuses -> Damage bonuses and 5-10% dps increase on all projectiles. Safes ammo for ACes and gives Arties more meaningful aplha. Actual damage increase would only be 0-5% due to ROF bonuses being stronger than Damage bonuses.
Not an issue if the ships were actually faster or had more meaningful lower signature, but as it is now:
-HP buff? I currently don't see any balance reason for the lowest total HP. Maybe lowest structure, but not lowest armor+shield.
Honestly i totally overlooked the sig radius of the ships, then again most people will probably whine about it even though theyr ships can tank beyond any amount matar ships could ever hope to do.Good proposals. Again im not asking to overpower matar, i simply want our niche to be realized. i want SPEED!!!!!!
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 22:29:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
An additional suggestion:
Why not increase the base damage of all projectiles by 25% and take off any damage mod bonuses (NOT ROF BONUSES), replacing them with something else? I think its silly that the ships need two DPS bonuses to be roughly equal to other ships (actually its still less) in DPS. So DPS would be the same as now, and the ships would all get a new bonus.
I think it was said earlier but yes thats a very good suggestion because it leaves us an empty bonus which we could use and make our ships get up to par w the other races. And before other races start naming great matar ships remember:
rupture 2dmg bonus, dont say pest because it also has 2 dmg bonus. And ill simply ignore vaga comments due to the fact that it is perhaps the only matar ships that is true to our race.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 22:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Why not increase the base damage of all projectiles by 25% and take off any damage mod bonuses (NOT ROF BONUSES), replacing them with something else? I think its silly that the ships need two DPS bonuses to be roughly equal to other ships (actually its still less) in DPS. So DPS would be the same as now, and the ships would all get a new bonus.
Because it would be hugely overpowered? Reminds me of similar suggestions for lasers in the amarr thread. The "low minnie" dps isn't really that low.
1400mm + ROF bonus has 97% of Mega Beam Laser dps.
Same optimal, better falloff, worse tracking. 3% less dps for zero capuse is IMO a fair enough trade...
800mm + ROF bonus has 120% of Mega Pulse Laser dps. With high damage ammo both weapons have about the same maximum effecient range (optimal + falloff). The 800 will mostly fight in it's falloff, though, so in the end we should have a similar ratio as with the longrange guns.
Ur not understanding something crusial were not asking to increase base dmg of our proj by 25% and then stack w the dmg bonus on the ship. Were asking to raise the base dmg of proj while also getting rid of the dmg bonus on ships; by doing that u simply have the same dmg as before however that frees up another slot on ship bonuses for us to truly have a secong bonus Like other races (xcep amar, and truly feel their pain w the cap bonus). And while the math u posted is true that would have to be w the ships bonuses included, our proposal would leave the same dmg we would simply be using another bonus other than dmg %
Think something like this, other than dmg bonus due to the dmg increase in our guns we'd be using something like this:
-ROF
-Falloff
-Tracking
-webber
-TP
-Speed
-etc
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 22:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 02/09/2006 22:52:29
Originally by: Rehmes
Ur not understanding something crusial...
Afraid the person who is not understanding is you. Burger asked for the removal of the +25% damage bonus (which only exists on a few ships, too) and speciically said (in big bold letters) that the base 25% ROF should stay.
....increase the base damage of all projectiles by 25% and take off any damage mod bonuses (NOT ROF BONUSES)...
I understood that completely, even w dmg bonus and rof bonus our guns dont outdamage any other so i dont see y it would be a bad idea. PLz note that the only ships that dont have 2 gun bonuses and still work at all are the vaga/stabber/cyclone (tanking only split sytems ruins this ship a tad) By all means ur welcome to tell which matar ship that doesnt have 2 dmg bonuses outdamages its counterpart. Hell ur even welcome to tell which which ship WITH the 2 dmg bonuses does more damage than its couterpart.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 23:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Aramendel
O-kay...I see you are a bit slow.  To repeat myself:
1400mm + ROF bonus has 97% of Mega Beam Laser dps.
ROF bonus only. No damage bonus. Only ROF. "Only" 97% of the damage and in exchnage zero zip zilch capuse.
How exactly is the minnie gun too weak here? Note that lasers get as standart bonus -50% capuse, so they do not have a dps boost from thefirst shipbonus.
If you increase the damage of the projectile gun by 25% we would get
1400mm + ROF bonus + 25% damage boost has 121% of Mega Beam Laser dps.
After the first ship bonus. 20% more dps and no capuse. Yes, sounds *very* balanced to me.
I understand amarian cap bonuses suck and so does the amount of cap thay use And alos the fact that they should have higher thermal damage. I have said in other posts to also get rid of cap bonuses on amar/decrease cap usage per laser gun, thereby opnening another bonus for u guys. and thus allowing ur ships to be more flexible w bonuses as well. HAVING BONUSES ON SHIPS ONLY TO ALLOW U TO USE THEM CORRECTLY IS CRAP!!!. Having said that id like to point ou that in 1v1 people just dont use 1400mm, because is suicide. 1400mm is there for sniping/fleet encounters not rly for 1v1 (thought that could be argued). Now since im very lazy w math y dont u try comparing both of those guns to the rails mega uses for sniping...
Also plz know that im not trying to create the master race out the matars, ive said it many times i simply want our race to have its niche realized and the fact that our guns suck compared to others is one of thos issues. Amarian have a similar issue w their cap bonuses but thats another topic and its been played out in many of the posts in this forum.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 23:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Rehmes
HAVING BONUSES ON SHIPS ONLY TO ALLOW U TO USE THEM CORRECTLY IS CRAP!!!.
This is the case for ALL ships.
Amarr have -cap
Minnies have -rof
Gallente have +damage
Caldari (missleships) have -rof.
Without the appropriate shipbonus every weaponclass gets weaker. Weapon performance is balanced for weapon + racial shipbonus. This does not effect minnies only but is an universal mechanic. And since it effects every ship minnies are in no disadvantage there.
Look at the base damage of all gun types, then compare them matar guns. It is widely known that ALL projectiles r in fact weaker than hybrids/lasers hands down. The ONLY way to even get "close" is by stacking 2 dmg bonuses otherwise ANY ship using blasters/lasers w no dmg bonus at all will still do more base damage than projectiles lets not forget that our wonderful traking help us unimaginably. U say that only a couple of ships have 2 dmg bonuses and increasing base would overpower matar....how so? because if u pay close attention the ONLY ships that work for matar r the ones w those 2 dmg bonuses. Therefore increasing the base dmg all across would simply bring our guns up to par w other races (even the base increase wont get us ther cuz even w 2 dmg bonuses our guns still do less dmg than any other gun). Then again i should note that i lean more towards AC dmg than art, even though rails perform much better.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 23:42:00 -
[16]
phoon only does more damage than the tempest due to the fact that it may equip 4 torp launchers + a bunch of drones, as a matter of fact the most comon set ups for this ship opt to use the launchers over the ACs. MOst favor 4 nos/4 siege.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 23:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Rehmes
phoon only does more damage than the tempest due to the fact that it may equip 4 torp launchers + a bunch of drones, as a matter of fact the most comon set ups for this ship opt to use the launchers over the ACs. MOst favor 4 nos/4 siege.
And are trading better dps for a better tank. What is your point? You think it would be in any way different for a mega if it uses 4 blasters and 4 nos?
.........sigh....
A blastertron will take out a phoon w 4 ac/4 siege set up...dont tread dealy waters if u dont have the sails.
Btw ever wonder y there r practically no morons in megas using 4 nos? Its cuz they dont need it, because their blasters pwn (and no im not saying theyr overpowered if anything gallented may be the most ballanced/niche fitting race in game). A Blastertron can make a decent tank w all of theyr blasters, a phoon using all its weapon systems cannot...y? cuz it need to place dmg modules for 2 wep systems so naturaly people opt for the one w higher power (torps) and leave AC out of the equation because otherwise the Phoon will go BOOM everytime it faces ANY other bs.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.03 00:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Aramendel
Quote:
it is a well known fact that amarian cap bonus is screwing them over
The cap bonus for lasers is perfectly fine. The only "well known fact" is that the amarr thread if full of morons who do not do the math and complain about it. The cap bonus is not what causes the current laser problems.
You are confusing "facts" with "popular opinion". Those 2 are very rarely the same thing.
Also, to repeat, the whole issue is not different for the +damage bonus for gallente ships or the -ROF bonus for caldari misslespammers.
I wont go too deeply into this cuz its not an amarian thread its a matar "niche finding thread"
If amarian lasers used less cap, and if cap bonuses were removed along with increased them dmg that would free up a ship bonus for amarians to use their ships in a more flexible manner, for example:
-armor hp bonuses
-armor res
-RoF
-DMG
-Tracking disrupter which is amarian EW
-w/e
Its not something based on popular belief nor is it based on calculations its a simple matter of truth. If those issues were adressed amarians would fare much better than they are now.
It comes down to this:
Caldari:
-great range bonuses
-best EW
-best shield tanks
-the flexibility to use all dmg types
-no cap for missles used
Gallente:
-great armor tanks
-best drone ships
-good ew aswell
-great close range dmg
Amarr:
-best armor tankers
-highest hp (at least armor) on ships
-good med range damage
*problem w dmg type which could be helped w a them dmg boost)
*losing ship bonuses to a nonus that is there simply to allow them to use their guns.
Minmatar:
-highest base speed (though so negligible that its practically a nonfactor)
-lowers sig radius
-most versatile (though many will say this is also a curse due to slit sys)
-can use all dmg types
-no cap use for weps
*lowest base dmg weps in game, therefore alose lowest dps (coupled w the fact that AC run out of ammo before it kills anything)
*our racial Ew TP benefits caldari better than us
*need 2 damn bonuses to bring our weapons up to par w other weapon systems, even while amar only needs 1.
*worst traking weapons in the game which cancels any speed we may try to use.
Now if ive left any of the pros and cons of any race by all means edit them, but the problem w matar is simply this:
if we cant tank as well as the other races then we need more speed to balance it since thats our mantra (because our current speed edge is truly nonfactor). If we get more speed we need a traking adjustment to our AC so that they wont miss as much (note that even w/o speed AC miss a lot)
Anyone mentioning the vaga after what ive said should be smacked in the face w an iron gauntlet....nuf said.....
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.03 00:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Estan Drake
Originally by: Rehmes
[that is there simply to allow them to use their guns.
*snip*
Minmatar:
-highest base speed (though so negligible that its practically a nonfactor)
-lowers sig radius
-most versatile (though many will say this is also a curse due to slit sys)
-can use all dmg types
-no cap use for weps
*lowest base dmg weps in game, therefore alose lowest dps (coupled w the fact that AC run out of ammo before it kills anything)
*our racial Ew TP benefits caldari better than us
*need 2 damn bonuses to bring our weapons up to par w other weapon systems, even while amar only needs 1.
*worst traking weapons in the game which cancels any speed we may try to use.
Now if ive left any of the pros and cons of any race by all means edit them, but the problem w matar is simply this:
if we cant tank as well as the other races then we need more speed to balance it since thats our mantra (because our current speed edge is truly nonfactor). If we get more speed we need a traking adjustment to our AC so that they wont miss as much (note that even w/o speed AC miss a lot)
Anyone mentioning the vaga after what ive said should be smacked in the face w an iron gauntlet....nuf said.....
You missed the fact that projectiles rely much more heavily on falloff for range. Which is very limiting to the effective max DPS range. As for autocannons...you are usually frining 100% of your shots into falloff which means you are missing a good percent of the time but the same can be said about artillery which someone said was a "superior sniper" weapon.
I fail to see how a higher chance to completely miss and do 0 damage is a benefit when range is an issue.
Very true, i over looked that ty.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.03 01:33:00 -
[20]
@ Octavio: well said.
I intend on specializing in matar regardless. However id like to see that at somepoint the minmatar niche will become a reality and we'd get balanced enough to compete toe to toe w any other pilot of another race w equal skills. Its not cool for other races to get ****ed if we want to get up to par with them because according to them they are not as good as everyone seems they r. But ill ask everyone this: Of all the people in EVE who cross spec how many of them truly pick matar as their 1st pick? of the 25-28k people who normally play the game i'd say most rather spec in caldari/gallente...y? because they are in fact good at what they do. To some extent the amarians suffer from similar issues but they still know their ships have great tanking capabilities whereas our depend on the "so-called speed" we are touted to have. Its simple a non factor.
-Fix our speed/agility, perhaps even sig radius
-increase our proj base dmg and alow us to use bonuses that fit matar ideology.
if this is done then we have a matar race who is good a hit and run which is what where supposed to do. We wont outank/damage anyone if this is done so none of the other races should complain.
Amarians need a reduced cap req for lasers and losing that cap bonus so u can do more thins aswell. and lastly increase in their base them dmg.
-I refuse to have explosive crystals because laser=light and for that same reason i refuse to have the kinetic crystals too. By simply increasing them dmg u help em out a bit.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.03 17:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: webkert
Originally by: Octavio Santillian
Base
That doesn't seem like a very fair compairson to me, that tempest is using its lowest tier guns, while the armarr ships are using mega pulse. If you're going to use mega pulse on those amarr ships you should have 800mm on the tempest and 2 siege launchers.
And even when using 800mm and two sieges that tempest will have 371 cpu left, while the geddon has 284,25.
The reason he uses the lowers tier guns is because the other guns have horrible tracking and will miss more thus lower dps. Which is the same reason most matar cruiser pilots use 220mm over the 425mm. We are forced to use the lower tier guns in order have any dps at all because the tracking in our guns r as bad as they come. BTW tbh even the 800mm dont compare to megas....now go ahead and remove the 2 dmg bonuses the tempest has and itl be as useless as a shuttle....while the apoc doesnt even have dmg bonuses but the very fact that lasers have higher base dmg will still out dmg it.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.04 17:35:00 -
[22]
If the higher tier guns wouldnt gimp the possibilities of a tank then theyd be used more frequently, but since AC are close range ur forced to try to put a decent tank, so u wont see many peopel use 800mm......if u do....they die very very fast...
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.10 03:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Estan Drake
Just keeping the thread alive =)
LOL long live matar....
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.10 04:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Mateo Barca
Even with the current tracking system, speed still seems awfully useful. I just wish Minnie ships had even more of it than they do.
If it were a choice between more speed or more tracking, I know what I'd choose. :D
Since were not the best tankers in any department, i think we could be more useful w the speed boost.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.10 18:12:00 -
[25]
Matari cant tank as good as other races because thats not what they are intended to do. Our ship's HP are lower than any other races for their specific class. CCP balances this by giving matar ships lower sig and higher base speed. The issue is that the speed/agility we get is almost a nonfactor compared toa full tank. If our speed/agility would bring our survival up to par w other races tanks, then id say matar have found their niche. Thats what the OP wanted, to truly give the matar their niche.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.10 18:24:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 10/09/2006 18:18:29
Id love to see a +25% speed boost across the board for all minnie ships... but everyone else would be upset when they cant catch them. :)
Just look at the Vagabond.. when speed matters to that degree, the ship becomes really really hard to catch. People are fine with minnie having speedy ships, but only when it doesnt really matter. You dont really see any complaints about minmatar being too fast now, do you.... :)
Yeah i know....i can only see the amount of matar pilots multiplying if we has a base speed bonus of 25%.
But honestly i think if the base speed was only increased by about 10% along w about 10% agility that would be acceptable and would make us more nimble. When it comes to tanking there is a ship that will out tank the matar one in its class, so i dont see why we shouldnt get that speed/agility bonus.....
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.10 19:11:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 10/09/2006 18:39:29
Originally by: Rehmes
Yeah i know....i can only see the amount of matar pilots multiplying if we has a base speed bonus of 25%.
But honestly i think if the base speed was only increased by about 10% along w about 10% agility that would be acceptable and would make us more nimble.
/me likey
(...at least for Frigates and Cruisers. Larger classes of ships I don't know well enough.)
You could accomplish much the same thing in one swoop by reducing mass.
Mass rediction makes sense; so sure y not. As far as big ships go i think theyll still benefit. NaNophoon anyone? The tempest is the smallest tier 2 bs atm so it can evade more than the normal bs however its nto enough to bypass its deficiency as a tank compared to the other ships (shield:raven Armor:apoc/domi/mega)) If we were to get that 10% increase in speed/agility im sure it would make up for the handicap.
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.23 03:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ath Amon
i mostly agree matari ships need a boost in base speed and agility (or mass)
most of the time the improvement over other ships is not enought to be considered a real advantage and to justify their weakness in armor/shields, lowest targetting range and sensor weakness.
these are all "structural" weakness that should be balanced in some way sign radius, speed/maneuverability and fast targetting are supposed to balance that but in my opinion they don't do this fully, expecially under speed departement, where the improvement over other ships most of the time is not that influential.
also the mass/speed of some ships should be revised (i'm referring to inties in particular), in my opinion is "funny" that a caldari ceptor (slowest and less maneuverable race) is faster and more maneuverable than a minnie ceptor, expecially considering that these 2 factors are the supposed strong points of minnie ships.
is also quite "strange" that the Slasher (T1 interceptor reference frigate) have base stats that makes it more maneuverable than the stiletto (exept of course in the situation when the ceptor use all its lows with nanos)
in some ships i even see some "design" problems, that i think is "linked" with the way they are tought.
sometimes i have the feeling that some stats or some slots allocation are chosen only for some "race guidelines"
the split slot allocation that "plague" so many minnie ships, the "low" number of mid slots even on ship geared to shield tank, the shield/armor hps inverted on some ships...
are all things that can makes sense on paper but in the end if you have not enought mid slots you are not going to shields tank, if you have fixed split slot allocation you are not going to gain in versatility... and so on.
if minnies are supposed to be good in proj/missile this doesn't necessary mean that minnie missile boat are wannabe missile boat with half missile slots but imo it should mean that minnie can produce good (primary) missile boats with an approach different than caldari (tank/power/range) one.
another problem i see in minnie ships (actually the big problem imo) is the weapons they use... said that a lot of time, but imo proj, ACs in particular, need a big rework.
they should get more dps or tracking as atm, expecially for large ACs) i think they are not really comparable.
to bring some data... proj do around 25% less damage than hybrids (ACs even a bit less), on the other hand they have 10% more tracking.
the ship bonus are 25% for damage and 37.5 for tracking....
there are also other factors to keep in account, alpha, faloff, optimal, cap consumption... but in the end i think that ACs generally suffer a bit from a "missing bonus"
another proj problem is actually fitting... there is a huge difference between long range and short range guns and this in some situation became a gimp factor for minnie ships, as for the muninn or the typhonn, the only ships in their category that can fit an "efficent" long range setup due to lack of PG.
in the end i still like minnies, but (as for amarr) i think they where a bit "left behind", not to a point to "gimp" them, but still i think that some tweaks here and there are needed...
sorry for the long whiny post :P
Not rly whinning bro. You plainly said something which is true in a civilized way instead of saying OMGWTFMINNIESHIPSSUXORSCCPUSUCK. We have some very outstanding ships but i think that our niche hanst materialized. We simply need higher speed/agility (slightly, roughly 5%) and a reduction of mass and a slight adjustment of tracking to compensate for the speed. If that were to happen then i could be content that even though i cant set up a shield tank as good as caldari of an armor tank as an ammarian/gallente, i could be happy to know that my agility/speed will help me balance the fight.
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