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Octavio Santillian
Curse Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.01 20:28:00 -
[1]
Sometimes I get so frustrated by Minmatar fleet design, itÆs hard to know where to start and what to focus on. It seems like once all the other races get their niche, our shipsÆ roles are designed around what the other races donÆt already have. Usually I just give up mid post, so IÆll try to focus primarily on one thing: the myth that we are fast and hard hitting.
Now I know we have some good ships, some very good ships. Our winners are great ships because they fit the Minmatar mold: fast and hard hitting. In reality though, we are not overwhelmingly fast, and we are only situationally hard hitting. Our MO as it were is also muted by the fact that speed and damage bonuses obviously have to compete. When you consider that we have the lowest base DPS, itÆs hard to be both fast and hard hitting in any kind of dominating way. What do I mean by dominance? Well letÆs look at the other races.
Gallente:
Sure the Gallente are the best at dampening and can deal out HUGE damage at short range, but they are far and away the best race at drones. The arbitrator aside, no ships for the other races can touch the Gallente drone boats at being drone boats. Even the Taranis gets drones FFS. They get bonuses like 50% more damage or over 100% to drone capacity. They are the undisputed kings of drones.
Caldari:
This is an easy one, because the Caldari are the kings of range, missiles, shield tanking and ECM. Caldarie are clearly the very best at ECM having dedicated ships at every class. They get bonuses in the magnitude of 25% strength and 100% range. Though other races get assorted bonuses to missiles and engagement range, no other race gets ships as focused at dominating in these areas. The Raven, the Crow, the Caracal, the Kestrel, the Cerberusùthese ships are unapproachable in their respective classes as missile boats. When it comes to range, the Harpy, the Eagle, the Moa, the Merlin, and soon the Rokh are the undisputed kings and receive bonuses at the magnitude of 50% to optimal range.
Amarr:
Well, I feel almost as bad for them as I do for the Matari; then I remember that they are slaver pigs. In any case, the Amarr are best at armor tanking, cap warfare, and mid ranged combat. Their dominance in these areas isnÆt generally as overwhelming as above, but they are the easily kings of armor tanking by a good bit. They have several ships that get 25% armor resistances, and in general, their strong cap, thick armor, and ample lows allow them to be amazing damage sponges.
Minmatar:
So we are the kings of speed? That is true, our sips are almost always the fastest in their class, but few of them actually get speed bonuses. As such we generally donÆt get ships that are 25%, 50%, or 100% faster than their counterparts. Though ships like the Jag, Typhoon, and Cheetah are considerably faster than their counterparts only the Stabber and Vagabond obtain what could be considered dominant speed. Our interceptors are often outrun by offerings from other races (due to factors other than base speed) and I am concerned that the Hyperion will outrun the Tempest, and possibly the Typhoon. Considering all this, itÆs is hard to say that we have a speed dominance. We are just slightly faster in most cases.
ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
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Octavio Santillian
Curse Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.01 20:29:00 -
[2]
Continue--
Usually our bonuses are damage oriented, but even with them, our ships are on the low end of the DPS scale. They basically make up for a deficiency in our base ammo damage and either a low damage modifier in autocannons or a low rate of fire in artillery. Our only real damage advantage is alpha strike, and thatÆs very overrated. If you canÆt one (or two) volley the opposing ship, alpha strike isnÆt all that hot. ItÆs a decent advantage in smaller fleet engagements, but other ships get a range advantage, and, in all reality, when ten ships are focusing fire on one ship, its makes little difference. Moreover, the more CCP moves to giving ships greater defensive capabilities, the less being fast and hard hitting makes a difference at all.
So, whatÆs my point? Well, I just think that if we are supposed to be so fast and hard hitting we should dominate in at least one of those categories just like the other races dominate in at least one category. Either give us better DPS or a bigger general speed advantage or a little bit of both.
ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
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Kunming
Amarr
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.01 20:58:00 -
[3]
Minmatar are not a DPS race, neither are caldari, get it out of your head man..
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:09:00 -
[4]
Id have to agree for many reasons. WHile im relatively new i picked matar because i like to have fast/agile ships. It is true that matar ships have lowest sig in their class and also faster than the rest of the ships in theyr class; however....we only have 2 ships that actually make use of the so-called speed we are supposed to have. Im not asking to place a speed bonus to all ships, but id sure like to see it more often. The problem comes down to what was stated above, our bonuses are there to make up for the crap dps we get; which in many ways is the same problem amar has w its cap bonus. Its there to LET us use our guns effectively. Many will argue the fact we have all dmg types but realistically w low dps it makes less of a difference. There are not many times where people are gonna change ammo in mid battle because at times its practically suicide (forget the fact that AC run out of ammo before they ever kill anything "in some cases"). Dont get me wrong i dont intend of making a whine out of it as a matter of fact im happy w the race im playing, but seeing as other races fit their niche so well, yet our race gets stuck w stupid split wep systems and bonuses that are there to let us have some sort of damage it is sometime frustrating to have a gun bonus yet u can only use 3 gus cuz the other 2 slots r missles.....honestly wtf...
My suggestion: (and i think its a fair wish to ask)
-raise matar ships base speed slightly (maybe 20-30 m/s)
-raise matar base damage for guns (this way some gun bonuses may go to other fields that we can use: speed/web/TP w/e)
Our EW is meant to be webbing/TP (as much as people hate TP i find it usefull at times). Therefor if our gun dmg was higher we could use some bonuses for webbing range or effectiveness w/e). Id keep ROF bonuses since were really not meant to be uber tanks in any way; our forte should be skirmish, we come in fast as hell go for high ROF/dencent dmg and get out.
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Auron Shadowbane
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:14:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Kunming
Minmatar are not a DPS race, neither are caldari, get it out of your head man..
so what sorta race are minmatar then?
caldari has 100% hit and highes range.
minmatar bs have crappy hybrid tanks and crappy speed as every bs has.
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Hamatitio
Caldari
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:18:00 -
[6]
Grass is always greener.
I wish I could fly a vagabond :(
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I'm going through sigs fast these days. |
Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:19:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
Originally by: Kunming
Minmatar are not a DPS race, neither are caldari, get it out of your head man..
so what sorta race are minmatar then?
caldari has 100% hit and highes range.
minmatar bs have crappy hybrid tanks and crappy speed as every bs has.
Sad but true 
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Jezala
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:29:00 -
[8]
I have always been on the opinion that Minmatars excel at 3 things:
1. Tactical Flexibility
2. Complimenting Caldari ships.
3. Fast ships
...and yes, we do sell and deliver ammo. 425 Express Delivery is available upon request, please see Hans Gates and Marcus Grisbius regarding this option. |
Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jezala
I have always been on the opinion that Minmatars excel at 3 things:
1. Tactical Flexibility
2. Complimenting Caldari ships.
3. Fast ships
I agree that we may have a certain flexibility to our ships, but some of the other races have a bit of it too while excelling very well in certain areas. I understand many will say that we have speed on our side, but honestly most of the times its only 20 m/s more than the other races ships. We cant really tank as great as the other races and thats just fine but id like to see more speed added and some dmg increase to our guns. That way our ship bonuses can be used for more usefull things rather than just latting us use em.
also.....PLZ FIX 425MM CPP!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tey Everway
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hamatitio
Grass is always greener.
I wish I could fly a vagabond :(
So do 90% of Minmatar.
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Azerrad
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:38:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Azerrad on 01/09/2006 21:41:53
A. We Are Devo!
Minmatar are faster than their counterparts, but its not enough to be called a meaningful advantage. The main problem with Minmatar in my mind lies in projectiles and their base stats. While it takes two (2!) damage bonuses to bring projectiles in line with other weapons, that precludes Minmatar ships from having decent DPS and a meaningful second bonus at the same time. Furthermore, there are only a small fraction of Minmatar ships that actually get both damage bonuses.
Projectile base damage needs a 25% increase and the damage bonus needs to be dropped from Minmatar ships just the RoF bonus to even out projectile DPS. Then we can add a second useful bonus to Minmatar ships (tracking? agility? speed? transfer 5% of typhoons shield hp to armor per level?).
signature removed - please email us if you want to find out why (include the URL to it) - Jacques([email protected]) |
Kunming
Amarr
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tey Everway
Originally by: Hamatitio
Grass is always greener.
I wish I could fly a vagabond :(
So do 90% of Minmatar.
Market supply does not dictate balance I hope.. Get reasonable folks. Minmatar are a hit and run race, other races dont have the luxury of retreating as easy as minnies do.
You say typhoon, muninn, bellicose, etc.. I say sacrilege, deimos, nighthawk... every race has gimped ships so dont come up with that arguement pls!
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Azerrad
Edited by: Azerrad on 01/09/2006 21:41:53
A. We Are Devo!
Minmatar are faster than their counterparts, but its not enough to be called a meaningful advantage. The main problem with Minmatar in my mind lies in projectiles and their base stats. While it takes two (2!) damage bonuses to bring projectiles in line with other weapons, that precludes Minmatar ships from having decent DPS and a meaningful second bonus at the same time. Furthermore, there are only a small fraction of Minmatar ships that actually get both damage bonuses.
Projectile base damage needs a 25% increase and the damage bonus needs to be dropped from Minmatar ships just the RoF bonus to even out projectile DPS. Then we can add a second useful bonus to Minmatar ships (tracking? agility? speed? transfer 5% of typhoons shield hp to armor per level?).
Heres a few bonuses we can put on with the free'd up space:
5% speed increase
5% webber range or efficiency w/e
5% agility increase ( i can see the hail of flames coming down)
Thats to name a few. Oh yeah stop making all matar ships split weapon systems thats part of the reason we suck at dmg...cuz our so-called wep bonuses only benefits 3/4 of the weapons on the ship...
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Prisoner1033948
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Posted - 2006.09.01 21:53:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Prisoner1033948 on 01/09/2006 21:54:20
Aye very true all
Just like most amarr ships we get bonuses that make the guns effective... caldari and gallente dont need that as their guns are already effective, maybe not much, but more than minnie turrets without bonuses
Personall i wouldnt mind much IF we were indeed the fastest.
And the key to that is imho mass not base speed. most of our ships have this open look... open frames without plating on it which would mean that we have less mass... Im to tired to check up on it so im not exactley sure how much mass the minnies got but im sure that it could be lower. It would make minnie ships turn faster, accelerate faster and gain more from ab's/mwd's...
Maybe someone can check the number to make sure im not wrong.... otherwise ill do it tommorow cause its late here.
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OMGPOSTWITHJ00M4IN!!!
My mains account is inactive atm srry.
my main is zephirz btw |
OrangeAfroMan
Suffoco Noctis
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.09.01 22:57:00 -
[15]
Completely agreed with OP. Minmatar are the fastest in their class.. but a lot of the time it is to the tune of a whole 10 m/s faster then the next fastest battlecruiser. As said there are only maybe 3-4 total ships that can reach dominating speed, which would be wonderful, and those ships are the Stabber/Vaga (btw give stabber 3/4 missile slots and a missile bonus please), the Jaguar, and arguably the Typhoon.
Gronsak is Tux's angry alt. |
Nathanial Victor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 23:55:00 -
[16]
ok, rule #1, dont use the vagabond as an example like every other ship in our classes is like the vagabond. its one ship. (plus the REALLY fast ones like 5km/s likely have faction fittings and/or snake implants)
looking up ppl are right, we may have a speed bonus, but usually it really isn't a signifigant one
DPS topic is old. but i did like this ->Minmatar aren't a DPS race? wtf is that supposed to mean anyway? must be some uber underlying racial understanding beyond my ability. And if caldari aren't DPS either then who is? amarr isn't, so gallente only ones supposed to have high dps?? (like the caldari dont? i know you have fancy equations and graphs, but one turret miss kinda throws those nifty figures out the window... where msls dont really have that prob)anyways, this is a ghey topic, lets move on...
"luxury of retreating as easy as minnies do." we can be webbed and scrammed like ANYONE else. Plus, i really dont look at retreat as a combat advantage, though i can see how some might
"Market supply does not dictate balance I hope" -think maybe they may have been talking about shear price and skill reqs. (perhaps a polite hint at what I outlined first in my post) just a couple ideas
oh, and my favorite and probably the biggest ability us minnies DO have, our versatility. Split mids/lows? I love em (seriously, no sarcasm here). only thing is, many ships suffer from lack of needed mids and its not like minnies are ONLY ones w/ versatility (Dominix Ishtar & Scorp and BB kinda blow us outta the water on versatility)
now i'm under the impression we minnies would love to keep the running theme going, just wouuld like it to work a bit better. We have two factors to look at. the HIT and the RUN.....So i'd say a mear 5% to speed and 10% to agility across board would take care of run well, as for HIT, perhaps a signifigant damage increase, and reduced clip size to balance out DPS over time but really make alpha shine!
I dont think i would like the whole damage increase / clip size decrease, but it would fit us
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 00:15:00 -
[17]
/Agreed
while our ships have a small advantage in speed it rly doesnt work out as well as it should..
take alook at ships that actually work for matar:
Tempest: regardless of how u fit it, it can survive only cuz it has an ability to put on a good tank.
Phoon: (regardless of what people say) it works out due to the fact its the smallest of the bs and again it can mount a decent tank.
Rupture: 2 wep bonuses to make it work and it can tank very well.
Stabber: relatively limited but the speed on this baby makes it a wonderful ship even though id love another mid slot for it.
Rifter: again it had 2 wep bonuses.
Ive only bothered w t1s since i think most of em r ok atm xcept maybe muninn but thats another topic.
As u can see the ships that really shine are ships which can tank, something which i dont mind yet doesnt fit with matar's concept. IN either case none of those ships can tank as good as theyr other couterparts xcept maybe the rupture. In bs class most other battleships will outclass the tempest/phoon.
The only thing matar needs is a true speed/agility bonus. we are not a true tanking class therefore we depend on our agility/speed to decrease damage taken. As for dps, yes it needs to be boosted perhaps by 20%. Get rid of the dmg bonus and leave rof and thus leaving some other usefull bonuses which we could use.
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Benglada
Finite Auxiliary
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Posted - 2006.09.02 01:40:00 -
[18]
vagabond. sniper tempest nos phoon Jaguar Stiletto. All are the best at their role. so stop *****ing.
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Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
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Nathanial Victor
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Posted - 2006.09.02 01:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Benglada
vagabond. sniper tempest nos phoon Jaguar Stiletto. All are the best at their role. so stop *****ing.
vagabond? see first remark of my last post
sniper tempest? ever heard of a snipe mega?
nos phoon? ever heard of a dominix?
Jaguar? kinda falls under the vagabond thing. (i'll give ya a 1/4 point for that one)
stiletto? last i heard the other interceptors were pretty fast and could tackle too (maybe you'd like to discuss the claw's awsome number of mids?)
Benglada? ever heard of pwnd?
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Andrea Jaruwalski
Caldari
horizons
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Posted - 2006.09.02 01:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Nathanial Victor
Benglada? ever heard of pwnd?
Sorry. No such things can be executed by a nooby alt.
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Nathanial Victor
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Posted - 2006.09.02 01:59:00 -
[21]
omg, i'm an alt?!
holy crap, where are my pants?
where the hell am i!!?
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6Bagheera9
Shadows of the Dead
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.09.02 02:29:00 -
[22]
There are a few ships and projectile turrets that are in need of a little tweaking, but the Minmatar are far from gimped. Our strength is our versitility, most of our ship can be equiped in a myrid of distinctly different ways. The tempest is a great example. You can both shield tank it and armor tank it, you can use both ACs and artys to potentially devestating effect, and you can fit a substantial ammount of EW on it without ruining the rest of your set-up.
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.09.02 02:31:00 -
[23]
The only minmatar ship that performs its role well is the Vagabond. Quick, decent damage, and can run away easily.
The rest of the ships aren't spectacularly versatile and the majority of them, the speed doesn't provide a distinct advantage. Plus the hit part of hit an run, as said, is strangely missing on most of the ships.
This isn't to say that minmatar can't be good. Its just that the ships really don't have any strengths that the others don't.
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Nathanial Victor
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Posted - 2006.09.02 02:41:00 -
[24]
no doubt. the ships are good. i prefer nothing else
but the whole 'minnie=speed' thing just hasn't played out to a real combat advantage vs other races. maybe some kinda mwd cap bonus like what the rax gets?
**unless you count a 1/4billion isk vaga, we know that one already (flameproofing: 1/4 bil thats considering a setup that will get you the EXTREEEEEEEEEEM speed)**
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.02 04:54:00 -
[25]
Ive said it many times before... I dont feel minmatar have a good role in this game. Alpha strike and speed doesnt feel enough to define the race.
Speed is what the race has going for it, so you can avoid damage, but unfortunantly our guns doesnt track very well at high speeds. And the best ship ever for speedy operations, the Vagabond, is basicly considered overpowered despite it has no tank and low dps.
At least its a FUN race, but I feel the "jack of all trades" isnt very valuable or even true.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Wrayeth
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.02 05:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Ive said it many times before... I dont feel minmatar have a good role in this game. Alpha strike and speed doesnt feel enough to define the race.
Speed is what the race has going for it, so you can avoid damage, but unfortunantly our guns doesnt track very well at high speeds. And the best ship ever for speedy operations, the Vagabond, is basicly considered overpowered despite it has no tank and low dps.
At least its a FUN race, but I feel the "jack of all trades" isnt very valuable or even true.
What Jim said.
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 05:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Ive said it many times before... I dont feel minmatar have a good role in this game. Alpha strike and speed doesnt feel enough to define the race.
Speed is what the race has going for it, so you can avoid damage, but unfortunantly our guns doesnt track very well at high speeds. And the best ship ever for speedy operations, the Vagabond, is basicly considered overpowered despite it has no tank and low dps.
At least its a FUN race, but I feel the "jack of all trades" isnt very valuable or even true.
What Jim said.
/agreed
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.09.02 05:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Ive said it many times before... I dont feel minmatar have a good role in this game. Alpha strike and speed doesnt feel enough to define the race.
Speed is what the race has going for it, so you can avoid damage, but unfortunantly our guns doesnt track very well at high speeds. And the best ship ever for speedy operations, the Vagabond, is basicly considered overpowered despite it has no tank and low dps.
At least its a FUN race, but I feel the "jack of all trades" isnt very valuable or even true.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Adding to this, Minmatar has no role, and ones that are attributed to it just aren't true, like versatility (instead of versatility on the ship, it has versatility racewide which means jack except you need to train every single weapon type up high).
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Akkarin Pagan
Minmatar
Raddick Explorations
Myriad Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.02 06:14:00 -
[29]
Some of the issues are adressed to a certain extent by skills. While a base speed advantage of a few m/s may not seem much, when you train up navigation, and the rest of the skill tree, it soon starts to add up.
For example, if I fly a Cyclone, I'm travelling at 197m/s top speed compared to 153 m/s in a Ferox. Add an AB or MWD to that and the increase becomes even more marked!
All of our weapons use no cap at all, and although this is balanced somewhat by crappy cap recharge rates, all our available cap is for tanking and speed mods. I can infact outdo a Ferox on lvl 3 missions in my Cyclone for example, It takes a bit more skill, but I never run into cap issues using the Cyclone, while the Ferox slows down when I have to recharge the cap for firing while tanking the incoming (yes I refuse to use a Missilox!). In fact the ability of the Cyclone has caused many of my corp mates to train up specifically for it, and discover the other fantastic ships we have (Rifter, Stabber, Rupture, and even the battleships in some cases!).
In fact the minmatar are very versatile, and that is our main strength. The problem comes when you have to train up the skills for everything (gunnery and missiles, armour and shield tanking etc.).
Of course I would love for the Minmatar to be boosted, but I feel all that they are in real need of is some minor tweaking in a few areas.
At the end of the day, you have the most fun flying Matari, you need the most skills to be effective, and you get access to some of the best ships in game.
Be the envy of your corp mates, fly Minmatar!
Akkarin
Linkage
Do not press this button |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.09.02 07:21:00 -
[30]
I like the Minmatar EWar specialisation a lot.
It helps the opposing faction's ships a whole lotta better than our own. 
--*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
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