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Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:39:00 - [91] Edited by: Aramendel on 02/09/2006 23:40:48 Originally by: Azerrad Except Minmatar needs -rof and +damage to get anywhere close to the other races. At that point there is no room left for a useful bonus and ships without both -rof and +damage are hardly worth flying. They do not. To repeat myself: 1400mm + ROF bonus has 97% of Mega Beam Laser dps. Same optimal, better falloff, worse tracking. 3% less dps for zero capuse is IMO a fair enough trade... 800mm + ROF bonus has 120% of Mega Pulse Laser dps. With high damage ammo both weapons have about the same maximum effecient range (optimal + falloff). The 800 will mostly fight in it's falloff, though, so in the end we should have a similar ratio as with the longrange guns. Originally by: Rehmes Look at the base damage of all gun types, then compare them matar guns. It is widely known that ALL projectiles r in fact weaker than hybrids/lasers hands down. Try doing it yourself. I am always doing the math before I post anything. Look up.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:42:00 - [92] phoon only does more damage than the tempest due to the fact that it may equip 4 torp launchers + a bunch of drones, as a matter of fact the most comon set ups for this ship opt to use the launchers over the ACs. MOst favor 4 nos/4 siege.
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:45:00 - [93] Originally by: Aramendel They do not. To repeat myself: 1400mm + ROF bonus has 97% of Mega Beam Laser dps. Same optimal, better falloff, worse tracking. 3% less dps for zero capuse is IMO a fair enough trade... 800mm + ROF bonus has 120% of Mega Pulse Laser dps. With high damage ammo both weapons have about the same maximum effecient range (optimal + falloff). The 800 will mostly fight in it's falloff, though, so in the end we should have a similar ratio as with the longrange guns. PER GUN. Tempest has 6 turret hardpoints w/ dual damage bonus leaving two open high slots for missles that don't get any bonus at all. Armageddon has 7 turret hardpoints with a 5% RoF bonus and the Apoc has 8 turret hardpoints. Hint: 8 turret hardpoints is a 33% damage increase over 6 turret hardpoints. signature removed - please email us if you want to find out why (include the URL to it) - Jacques([email protected])
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:46:00 - [94] Originally by: Rehmes phoon only does more damage than the tempest due to the fact that it may equip 4 torp launchers + a bunch of drones, as a matter of fact the most comon set ups for this ship opt to use the launchers over the ACs. MOst favor 4 nos/4 siege. And are trading better dps for a better tank. What is your point? You think it would be in any way different for a mega if it uses 4 blasters and 4 nos?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:55:00 - [95] Originally by: Azerrad PER GUN. Tempest has 6 turret hardpoints w/ dual damage bonus leaving two open high slots for missles that don't get any bonus at all. Armageddon has 7 turret hardpoints with a 5% RoF bonus and the Apoc has 8 turret hardpoints. Hint: 8 turret hardpoints is a 33% damage increase over 6 turret hardpoints. Yes, per gun. But these 2 empty highslots can be used for other stuff, too. Heavy nosses, for example. The apoc gets this "great" 25% cap bonus. Gives him with max skills 2.2 more cap per second. 2 t1 heavy nos give you 16.7 cap/sec (and remove it from your target, too). And, btw, the tier 3 minnie BS has 8 turret hardpoints.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:55:00 - [96] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Rehmes phoon only does more damage than the tempest due to the fact that it may equip 4 torp launchers + a bunch of drones, as a matter of fact the most comon set ups for this ship opt to use the launchers over the ACs. MOst favor 4 nos/4 siege. And are trading better dps for a better tank. What is your point? You think it would be in any way different for a mega if it uses 4 blasters and 4 nos? .........sigh.... A blastertron will take out a phoon w 4 ac/4 siege set up...dont tread dealy waters if u dont have the sails. Btw ever wonder y there r practically no morons in megas using 4 nos? Its cuz they dont need it, because their blasters pwn (and no im not saying theyr overpowered if anything gallented may be the most ballanced/niche fitting race in game). A Blastertron can make a decent tank w all of theyr blasters, a phoon using all its weapon systems cannot...y? cuz it need to place dmg modules for 2 wep systems so naturaly people opt for the one w higher power (torps) and leave AC out of the equation because otherwise the Phoon will go BOOM everytime it faces ANY other bs.
Estan Drake	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:58:00 - [97] Just to stop the whole overrated "Blah blah you have an awsome Alpha strike" argument I would like to direct your attention to the fact that an Apoc fitting 1400mm artillery have a much better alpha strike... and it can fit it easier. Only for the first few vollies though, mind you before the RoF advantage of the Tempest seriously comes into play. Tempest gets its 25% damage mod over 6 slots which roughly equates to and extra gun and a half in damage but still has a very hard time fitting even 6 1400mm artillery, usually requireing at least one power diagnostic unit even with maxed out fitting skills. While the Apoc can fit 8X 1400mm Artillery with grid to spare leaving 8 free low slots with same fitting skills. So if you wanna get into the whole alpha strike thing you have more damage spread out over more guns, and the ability to fit more tracking, range, and damage mods on an apoc. You would only be able to use that fitting to any advantage over the first few vollies however. Just food for thought if anyone wants to consider that as a Minmatar exclusive strength.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:00:00 - [98] Quote: it is a well known fact that amarian cap bonus is screwing them over The cap bonus for lasers is perfectly fine. The only "well known fact" is that the amarr thread if full of morons who do not do the math and complain about it. The cap bonus is not what causes the current laser problems. You are confusing "facts" with "popular opinion". Those 2 are very rarely the same thing. Also, to repeat, the whole issue is not different for the +damage bonus for gallente ships or the -ROF bonus for caldari misslespammers.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:03:00 - [99] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/09/2006 00:03:51 You 3 get a room in EVE, would be easier in Real Time than forums Just a quick point. Bonus on ships for there weapons isn't silly, its what makes the weapons that racial weapon. Boosting AC's by 25% damage and removing the damage bonus's from the ships would mean other races get a increase in there effectiveness along with more guns. I'm not sure why projectiles have high alpha, low ROF and close range have low alpha, high ROF. Why not follow the same principle for both long+short range weapons? ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:04:00 - [100] Originally by: Aramendel Yes, per gun. But these 2 empty highslots can be used for other stuff, too. Heavy nosses, for example. The apoc gets this "great" 25% cap bonus. Gives him with max skills 2.2 more cap per second. 2 t1 heavy nos give you 16.7 cap/sec (and remove it from your target, too). And, btw, the tier 3 minnie BS has 8 turret hardpoints. The apoc is an admittedly poor ship and could use a new second bonus (5% recharge rate?), but regardless the point about damage remains. However, the Apoc can put together a much better tank than the Tempest could ever hope to so it at least gets some positive to negate the poor DPS. While having two heavy NOS might seem useful, you usually get shredded long before you can drain someone dry since pretty much every smart BS pilot has a cap injector. The only thing NOS are good for is scaring off smaller ships, but drones/webs tend to do a better of that imho. The only reason the Tier3 Minmatar BS has 8 turrets is because it only has a RoF bonus meaning that it should do approximately the same DPS as the Tempest. The Tier3 Amarr BS is probably getting 8 turrets and a RoF bonus which will mean more DPS than any Minmatar BS, but I don't really see how the yet to be released Tier3 ships really factor into this discussion. signature removed - please email us if you want to find out why (include the URL to it) - Jacques([email protected])
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:11:00 - [101] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/09/2006 00:03:51 You 3 get a room in EVE, would be easier in Real Time than forums Just a quick point. Bonus on ships for there weapons isn't silly, its what makes the weapons that racial weapon. Boosting AC's by 25% damage and removing the damage bonus's from the ships would mean other races get a increase in there effectiveness along with more guns. I'm not sure why projectiles have high alpha, low ROF and close range have low alpha, high ROF. Why not follow the same principle for both long+short range weapons? A bonus on a ship to improve its racial weapons is perfectly fine, but requiring 2 bonuses isn't right, unless the ships/weapons have some distinct advantage in their base stats. The way it is now a 10 m/s increase in speed doesn't work out to a distinct advantage by any stretch of the imagination. The problem of other races (i.e. Amarr) using projectiles would be made worse by adding 25% damage and removing the damage bonus, but I think that can be fixed by addressing the issue that is making Amarr pilots fit projectiles to begin with. Theres a 60 some page thread about that if you want to discuss it, more it there. Minmatar ships shouldn't have to suffer just to force another race to use their racial weapons. signature removed - please email us if you want to find out why (include the URL to it) - Jacques([email protected])
Estan Drake	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:14:00 - [102] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Azerrad PER GUN. Tempest has 6 turret hardpoints w/ dual damage bonus leaving two open high slots for missles that don't get any bonus at all. Armageddon has 7 turret hardpoints with a 5% RoF bonus and the Apoc has 8 turret hardpoints. Hint: 8 turret hardpoints is a 33% damage increase over 6 turret hardpoints. Yes, per gun. But these 2 empty highslots can be used for other stuff, too. Heavy nosses, for example. The apoc gets this "great" 25% cap bonus. Gives him with max skills 2.2 more cap per second. 2 t1 heavy nos give you 16.7 cap/sec (and remove it from your target, too). And, btw, the tier 3 minnie BS has 8 turret hardpoints. /me jumps into the flames. How much do you wanna bet the tier 3 BS will only be able to fit 8X 1200mm (craptacular) artillery too? and I think everyone here can agree that lower tier arty with all things considered (tracking vs. other races equivalents, fitting, damage, range) don't quite stand up. Best I can probably hope for is a 4-4 split between 1200mm and 1400mm. Either that or go crazy with the reactor controls and gimp any hope for a tank
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:15:00 - [103] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/09/2006 00:15:52 Originally by: Azerrad Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/09/2006 00:03:51 You 3 get a room in EVE, would be easier in Real Time than forums Just a quick point. Bonus on ships for there weapons isn't silly, its what makes the weapons that racial weapon. Boosting AC's by 25% damage and removing the damage bonus's from the ships would mean other races get a increase in there effectiveness along with more guns. I'm not sure why projectiles have high alpha, low ROF and close range have low alpha, high ROF. Why not follow the same principle for both long+short range weapons? A bonus on a ship to improve its racial weapons is perfectly fine, but requiring 2 bonuses isn't right, unless the ships/weapons have some distinct advantage in their base stats. The way it is now a 10 m/s increase in speed doesn't work out to a distinct advantage by any stretch of the imagination. The problem of other races (i.e. Amarr) using projectiles would be made worse by adding 25% damage and removing the damage bonus, but I think that can be fixed by addressing the issue that is making Amarr pilots fit projectiles to begin with. Theres a 60 some page thread about that if you want to discuss it, more it there. Minmatar ships shouldn't have to suffer just to force another race to use their racial weapons. So asolution would be without raising the basic stats. Raise one bonus to 10% per level and replace the second gun bonus with a different bonus ? ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:17:00 - [104] Originally by: Aramendel Quote: it is a well known fact that amarian cap bonus is screwing them over The cap bonus for lasers is perfectly fine. The only "well known fact" is that the amarr thread if full of morons who do not do the math and complain about it. The cap bonus is not what causes the current laser problems. You are confusing "facts" with "popular opinion". Those 2 are very rarely the same thing. Also, to repeat, the whole issue is not different for the +damage bonus for gallente ships or the -ROF bonus for caldari misslespammers. I wont go too deeply into this cuz its not an amarian thread its a matar "niche finding thread" If amarian lasers used less cap, and if cap bonuses were removed along with increased them dmg that would free up a ship bonus for amarians to use their ships in a more flexible manner, for example: -armor hp bonuses -armor res -RoF -DMG -Tracking disrupter which is amarian EW -w/e Its not something based on popular belief nor is it based on calculations its a simple matter of truth. If those issues were adressed amarians would fare much better than they are now. It comes down to this: Caldari: -great range bonuses -best EW -best shield tanks -the flexibility to use all dmg types -no cap for missles used Gallente: -great armor tanks -best drone ships -good ew aswell -great close range dmg Amarr: -best armor tankers -highest hp (at least armor) on ships -good med range damage problem w dmg type which could be helped w a them dmg boost) losing ship bonuses to a nonus that is there simply to allow them to use their guns. Minmatar: -highest base speed (though so negligible that its practically a nonfactor) -lowers sig radius -most versatile (though many will say this is also a curse due to slit sys) -can use all dmg types -no cap use for weps lowest base dmg weps in game, therefore alose lowest dps (coupled w the fact that AC run out of ammo before it kills anything) our racial Ew TP benefits caldari better than us need 2 damn bonuses to bring our weapons up to par w other weapon systems, even while amar only needs 1. worst traking weapons in the game which cancels any speed we may try to use. Now if ive left any of the pros and cons of any race by all means edit them, but the problem w matar is simply this: if we cant tank as well as the other races then we need more speed to balance it since thats our mantra (because our current speed edge is truly nonfactor). If we get more speed we need a traking adjustment to our AC so that they wont miss as much (note that even w/o speed AC miss a lot) Anyone mentioning the vaga after what ive said should be smacked in the face w an iron gauntlet....nuf said.....
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:25:00 - [105] Originally by: Mila Prestoc So asolution would be without raising the basic stats. Raise one bonus to 10% per level and replace the second gun bonus with a different bonus ? It would probably work although the base stats would probably need some tweaking anyways. 10% RoF would lead to insane ammo usage while 10% damage would lead to potentially overpowered alpha strike. If you reduced RoF and increased damage in the base stats you could probably balace it with a 10% RoF bonus and vice versa for 10% damage bonus. Furthermore, 10% RoF would be an increase in total dps (25% Rof == 33% damage) while 10% damage would be a nerf to total dps. signature removed - please email us if you want to find out why (include the URL to it) - Jacques([email protected])
Estan Drake	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:28:00 - [106] Originally by: Rehmes [that is there simply to allow them to use their guns. snip Minmatar: -highest base speed (though so negligible that its practically a nonfactor) -lowers sig radius -most versatile (though many will say this is also a curse due to slit sys) -can use all dmg types -no cap use for weps lowest base dmg weps in game, therefore alose lowest dps (coupled w the fact that AC run out of ammo before it kills anything) our racial Ew TP benefits caldari better than us need 2 damn bonuses to bring our weapons up to par w other weapon systems, even while amar only needs 1. worst traking weapons in the game which cancels any speed we may try to use. Now if ive left any of the pros and cons of any race by all means edit them, but the problem w matar is simply this: if we cant tank as well as the other races then we need more speed to balance it since thats our mantra (because our current speed edge is truly nonfactor). If we get more speed we need a traking adjustment to our AC so that they wont miss as much (note that even w/o speed AC miss a lot) Anyone mentioning the vaga after what ive said should be smacked in the face w an iron gauntlet....nuf said..... You missed the fact that projectiles rely much more heavily on falloff for range. Which is very limiting to the effective max DPS range. As for autocannons...you are usually frining 100% of your shots into falloff which means you are missing a good percent of the time but the same can be said about artillery which someone said was a "superior sniper" weapon. I fail to see how a higher chance to completely miss and do 0 damage is a benefit when range is an issue.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:37:00 - [107] Originally by: Estan Drake Originally by: Rehmes [that is there simply to allow them to use their guns. snip Minmatar: -highest base speed (though so negligible that its practically a nonfactor) -lowers sig radius -most versatile (though many will say this is also a curse due to slit sys) -can use all dmg types -no cap use for weps lowest base dmg weps in game, therefore alose lowest dps (coupled w the fact that AC run out of ammo before it kills anything) our racial Ew TP benefits caldari better than us need 2 damn bonuses to bring our weapons up to par w other weapon systems, even while amar only needs 1. worst traking weapons in the game which cancels any speed we may try to use. Now if ive left any of the pros and cons of any race by all means edit them, but the problem w matar is simply this: if we cant tank as well as the other races then we need more speed to balance it since thats our mantra (because our current speed edge is truly nonfactor). If we get more speed we need a traking adjustment to our AC so that they wont miss as much (note that even w/o speed AC miss a lot) Anyone mentioning the vaga after what ive said should be smacked in the face w an iron gauntlet....nuf said..... You missed the fact that projectiles rely much more heavily on falloff for range. Which is very limiting to the effective max DPS range. As for autocannons...you are usually frining 100% of your shots into falloff which means you are missing a good percent of the time but the same can be said about artillery which someone said was a "superior sniper" weapon. I fail to see how a higher chance to completely miss and do 0 damage is a benefit when range is an issue. Very true, i over looked that ty.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:40:00 - [108] Originally by: Azerrad The apoc is an admittedly poor ship and could use a new second bonus (5% recharge rate?), but regardless the point about damage remains. The apoc is right now also the only ship with 8 turrets. Recharge rate would change the cap recharge bonus from 2.2 to 2.8 cap/sec, btw, no real difference. The 2nd bonus for the tempest essentially is that it can 6 guns to do the damage other BSs need 7 or 8 to. It gives it 2 free high slots which it can use depending on situation. This is quite compareable to the cap bonus of the apoc, the tracking bonus of the mega and the missle speed bonus of the raven. Quote: However, the Apoc can put together a much better tank than the Tempest could ever hope to so it at least gets some positive to negate the poor DPS. Only if it uses projectiles. With lasers the higher capuse is removing the cap recharge advantage it has. Add to this cap injectors and the apoc tank does not really differ from the one of other ships. Quote: The Tier3 Amarr BS is probably getting 8 turrets and a RoF bonus which will mean more DPS than any Minmatar BS, but I don't really see how the yet to be released Tier3 ships really factor into this discussion. And no capbonus meaning it will horribly fast run out of cap. Now add that the devs want to make combat longer. And the reason why these ships factor in the discussion is because we'll see them within 1-2 months on TQ. Which will be far earlier than any changes to weapons which are discussed right now would get in the game. Originally by: Estan Drake How much do you wanna bet the tier 3 BS will only be able to fit 8X 1200mm (craptacular) artillery too? I would happily bet 100 mil that the Maelstrom will need as many or less RCU2s to fit a full rack of 1400mms + 1 large SB as the Abaddon will need for a 8 Tachyon + 1 large rep and the Rohk will need for 8 425 rails + 1 large SB. Or with 1 x-large SB + boost amp/2 large rep tanks if you prefer that.
Octavio Santillian Curse Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:43:00 - [109] I agree that we could use a slight reduction in mass to accent the any increase in speed. For the vast majority of our ships, our speed and agility advantage is nominal at best. As I have tried to point out, our supposed primary racial advantage is rarely expressed in the form of a ship bonus, because we need two bonuses in order to come in last at DPS. As such it can be equalized very easily with a single Nanofiber or one skill level in Navigation or Evasive Maneuvering. There is no module that will give you 50% more optimal or 50% more Drone damage. To reiterate my point, people talk as if our racial advantage is speed. The other races, however, tend to make their racial identify through their ship bonuses. This gives their racial advantages a higher magnitude of æsuperiorityÆ that the Minmatar speed and agility bonus. Our ship bonuses rarely make our ships better than other ships at doing something, they make them almost as good as other ships at doing something. And yes, the Amarr often in a similar boat. Hence, I feel it is a myth to characterize the Minmatar, as the speed kings. ItÆs kind of like characterizing the Caldari as the sensor strength or targeting range kings: they generally do have the best of these in their class, but its not a major racial advantage. Having the worst DPS, tanking, and most skill intensive ships is just adding injury to insult. I donÆt want to go on all day about these things, but I did want to like a few damage charts that focuses on BSs. Its pretty amazing how much DPS the Typhoon can do, but you need keep in mind you need to have T2 Autocannon, Siege Launcher, and Heavy Drone skills. You could probably get by with T1 guns and missiels but the Ogre IIs are what boot the damage. This one uses no damage mods and T1 ammo. It does use T2 Ogers for all ships. I didnÆt have room for the Domi or Scorpian, but hey, they strengths wouldnÆt show up in a damage chart. Obviously this is a close range ship comparison. Base This one adds damage mods but still uses T1 ammo. I used what I thought would be a ætypicalÆ amount of DMs based on common builds found in the forums. DM This one has damage mods and uses T2 ammo. I used conflagration for the Amarr, because I thought it seemed the most attractive based on damage vs penalty. I donÆt fly Amarr, so I may be totally wrong here. Also, I used T1 Torps because of explosion radious. T2 Ammo ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
Octavio Santillian Curse Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:47:00 - [110] OK I need to get off the original topic a bit and vent. First my caveats: I love flying Minmatar. I know we have some very good ships. I do not think the game is unbalanced to the point of being unplayable. I realize that there are all kinds of dynamics in the game, and what is a disadvantage in one respect can be an advantage in others. I know that every race has its flaws and weak points. I do however think the Minmatar (and Amarr) are the underdogs right now. Just because I bring up points and express my views, doesnÆt give people the right to caricature me and conduct straw man attacks against me or the Minmatar. If you do, you have already forfeited the discussion. IÆm sure that wonÆt stop some of you. I canÆt help but give a shout out to the lovely Caldair pilots are who are always on the lookout to sprinkle their unique brand of wisdom in Matari posts. We love it when you say things like: ôIf you flew Caldari, you wouldnÆt think they are so hot.ö Well most of those pilots probably havenÆt flown Minmatar. There is a reason the Minmatar æwhineÆ all the time and Caldari rarely complain. We have to make lemonade out of lemons, and that requires a lot more devoted skill points. I canÆt fly Caldari battleships, and IÆm not going to train them just to prove a point. I did however just conduct an interesting test. I gave myself Caldari Frig 4, Cruiser 4, and BS 2 in Quickfit without changing any other skills. I do slightly more damage in a standard Raven setup with BS 2 and Arbalest Siege launchers than in the standard Tempest setup with BS 4 (working on 5 now) and 425mm IIs. Keep in mind that I have over 6 million skill points in gunnery and only 240,873 in Missiles Operations. I can also tank better in a Raven with my current skills. Does that seem right to you? To be sure, I would have trouble tackling, and I grant that is a major drawback to the Raven. On the flip side, some people like to say this that ôMissiles do more damage at first, but once you have max skills projectiles do more.ö WRONG! The damage charts I linked all assume top skills, and the Tempest is out damaged by the Raven in all of them. The Typhoon does out damage the Raven (by a good bit), but keep in mind it is employing 8 BS sized weapons and 5 heavy drones to do so. Ok not that's over; I can again. ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:50:00 - [111] Originally by: Octavio Santillian This one uses no damage mods and T1 ammo. It does use T2 Ogers for all ships. I didnÆt have room for the Domi or Scorpian, but hey, they strengths wouldnÆt show up in a damage chart. Obviously this is a close range ship comparison. Base Your base chart seems to use the same number of damage mods as your second chart. signature removed - please email us if you want to find out why (include the URL to it) - Jacques([email protected])
Octavio Santillian Curse Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.03 01:01:00 - [112] Originally by: Azerrad Originally by: Octavio Santillian This one uses no damage mods and T1 ammo. It does use T2 Ogers for all ships. I didnÆt have room for the Domi or Scorpian, but hey, they strengths wouldnÆt show up in a damage chart. Obviously this is a close range ship comparison. Base Your base chart seems to use the same number of damage mods as your second chart. Yah I must have screwed up when I uploaded them. Give me a sec. ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.03 01:33:00 - [113] @ Octavio: well said. I intend on specializing in matar regardless. However id like to see that at somepoint the minmatar niche will become a reality and we'd get balanced enough to compete toe to toe w any other pilot of another race w equal skills. Its not cool for other races to get ****ed if we want to get up to par with them because according to them they are not as good as everyone seems they r. But ill ask everyone this: Of all the people in EVE who cross spec how many of them truly pick matar as their 1st pick? of the 25-28k people who normally play the game i'd say most rather spec in caldari/gallente...y? because they are in fact good at what they do. To some extent the amarians suffer from similar issues but they still know their ships have great tanking capabilities whereas our depend on the "so-called speed" we are touted to have. Its simple a non factor. -Fix our speed/agility, perhaps even sig radius -increase our proj base dmg and alow us to use bonuses that fit matar ideology. if this is done then we have a matar race who is good a hit and run which is what where supposed to do. We wont outank/damage anyone if this is done so none of the other races should complain. Amarians need a reduced cap req for lasers and losing that cap bonus so u can do more thins aswell. and lastly increase in their base them dmg. -I refuse to have explosive crystals because laser=light and for that same reason i refuse to have the kinetic crystals too. By simply increasing them dmg u help em out a bit.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.03 06:32:00 - [114] Originally by: Tachy Minmatar ships had their speed reduced last year just because, rememeber? And 'just because' because that's all we got when we asked for the reasons behind those changes. I wasnt here then... what ships got changed and by how much? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tachy	Posted - 2006.09.03 12:38:00 - [115] Many Minmatar ships had thier skill based speed bonus removed in the Mk2 project. A small base speed adjustment has been given because there was a little outcry. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.03 16:30:00 - [116] Originally by: Octavio Santillian Base That doesn't seem like a very fair compairson to me, that tempest is using its lowest tier guns, while the armarr ships are using mega pulse. If you're going to use mega pulse on those amarr ships you should have 800mm on the tempest and 2 siege launchers. And even when using 800mm and two sieges that tempest will have 371 cpu left, while the geddon has 284,25.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.03 17:02:00 - [117] Originally by: webkert Originally by: Octavio Santillian Base That doesn't seem like a very fair compairson to me, that tempest is using its lowest tier guns, while the armarr ships are using mega pulse. If you're going to use mega pulse on those amarr ships you should have 800mm on the tempest and 2 siege launchers. And even when using 800mm and two sieges that tempest will have 371 cpu left, while the geddon has 284,25. The reason he uses the lowers tier guns is because the other guns have horrible tracking and will miss more thus lower dps. Which is the same reason most matar cruiser pilots use 220mm over the 425mm. We are forced to use the lower tier guns in order have any dps at all because the tracking in our guns r as bad as they come. BTW tbh even the 800mm dont compare to megas....now go ahead and remove the 2 dmg bonuses the tempest has and itl be as useless as a shuttle....while the apoc doesnt even have dmg bonuses but the very fact that lasers have higher base dmg will still out dmg it.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.03 17:06:00 - [118] Octavious - I think your damage charts are a bit.....skewed. You have compared the 425MM ACs to the heaviest tier Lasers and 2nd tier Blasters, although some could argue that Neutrons are in a seperate class unto themselves akin to Tachys. I think it would be a MUCH more fair comparison if you at least used 650mm ACs on the Tempest since they can easily be fit. With the small grid on the Typhoon and Siege II 425mm ACs are probably a bit more realistic. If you use comparable guns you will see that the DPS difference between the Tempest and the others is not nearly as large as your graph would indicate. I will be happy to post them if you want. The only thing the Tempest user may be able to have a realistic issue with is damage mods. With a EANIIx2, DC, Cap injector,and L Repperx2 the Tempest only has enough low slots to fit 1 damage mod. In addition, you have failed to mention one of the close range Tempests greatest advantages. Fitting flexibility. Tempest: 800mm AC II(6), Heavy Launcher II(2) = 7306 grid & 420 CPU left Tempest: 650mm AC II (6), Heavy Launcher II(2) = 10,276 grid & 434 CPU left Geddon: Megapulse II (7) = 3360 grid & 284 CPU left Apoc: Megapulse II (8) = 4575 grid & 307 CPU left The difference is considerable. Even moreso when you contemplate that 650mm's have the exact same range as 800mm's with only a very slight reduction in damage with massively less fitting needs. Heavy Launchers are similar, less range than cruise but very similar damage for MUCH less fitting. I am not saying that Matari couldn't use some love. They do. Matari ships should have 50% more speed and less mass than thier counterparts. It would help distinguish them as "fast, hit and run" skirmish fighters. Of course, Amarr should have like 25%-40% more armor than thier comparables since we are the armor tanking/turret specialist. Of course the Raven stands in a class by itself. Most mids, FANTASTIC "no tracking" damage, massive shield boosting abilities and instead of getting a bonus to Kin damage like the earlier models of Caldari missile boats it gets a straight ROF bonus, which is pretty obviously unbalanced when you look at the charts vs normal tanks. The Raven's bonus as it currently stands would be like giving the Geddon a 25% rof bonus to ALL weapon systems: overpowered. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Cohkka LoneWolf Mining R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.03 17:09:00 - [119] Originally by: webkert Originally by: Octavio Santillian Base That doesn't seem like a very fair compairson to me, that tempest is using its lowest tier guns, while the armarr ships are using mega pulse. If you're going to use mega pulse on those amarr ships you should have 800mm on the tempest and 2 siege launchers. And even when using 800mm and two sieges that tempest will have 371 cpu left, while the geddon has 284,25. Last time I tryed fitting an AC Tempest with sieges and I couldn't get any good stetups on it without faction gear. Maybe that changed, well I highly doubt it did. To be fair, Armageddon is better with DHPs Lasers, since you can mount a tank in lows. Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5...
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:02:00 - [120] Edited by: webkert on 03/09/2006 22:02:57 Originally by: Rehmes Originally by: webkert Originally by: Octavio Santillian Base That doesn't seem like a very fair compairson to me, that tempest is using its lowest tier guns, while the armarr ships are using mega pulse. If you're going to use mega pulse on those amarr ships you should have 800mm on the tempest and 2 siege launchers. And even when using 800mm and two sieges that tempest will have 371 cpu left, while the geddon has 284,25. The reason he uses the lowers tier guns is because the other guns have horrible tracking and will miss more thus lower dps. Which is the same reason most matar cruiser pilots use 220mm over the 425mm. We are forced to use the lower tier guns in order have any dps at all because the tracking in our guns r as bad as they come. BTW tbh even the 800mm dont compare to megas....now go ahead and remove the 2 dmg bonuses the tempest has and itl be as useless as a shuttle....while the apoc doesnt even have dmg bonuses but the very fact that lasers have higher base dmg will still out dmg it. No they dont have horrible tracking, 800mm track 60% better then mega pulse. And thb I dont have any trouble tracking cruisers with my L sized pulses unless its a vagabond orbiting just out of webrange or some other cruiser orbiting just ouside webrange with an mwd. And yea tempest generally fit one less damagemods because it has 6 lows, but instead it has a medium slot that can be used for ew.

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