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Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.02 19:50:00 - [61] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Dixon That is perhaps the most biased graph in the history of the world. Perhaps. Using hail and quake on sheild tanks and explosive missiles on armor is just plain wrong and horribly biased. These kind of graphs only debase your point. Making a case based on exaggerations will only lead the Minmatar whine towards the horrible fate of the Amarr whine. Why is it wrong for the Raven to use explosive missiles vs armor when its the lowest resist for a armor tanking Tempest using 2 EANM II + DC? Ive made another chart with alot of different ammo types. Like i said in my first post, it doesnt make much of a difference. Phased plasma is slightly more effective since thermal is the worst resist on the Raven, but as you can see its not by much. Please suggest another setup you would like to see if you dont like this one. Im not trying to make any point. It seems to me that minmatar battleships have worse dps than a raven when taking resistances of the standard tanks into account. Is this wrong? No it isn't but you're still calculating projectiles against shield tanks and missiles against armor. The graph doesn't show how much lasers or hybrids would do against shield tanks for any reasonable comparison, infact your tanks are not even in the same class resistance wise (which is of course the case with shield vs armor tanks). The average resist for sheild being 69.82% and 63.48% on armor, this may not seem a huge difference but armor resists are 13.8% lower on average in this case. So yeah, the point was to show that the Tempest and Phoon would suck against the Ravens tank (at least I think that was the point). In reality all turrets suck against the Ravens tank, it's a great tanker. I think projectiles actually take less dps drop with phased plasma than lasers and hybrids. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.02 19:59:00 - [62] Originally by: Instagib Originally by: Dixon Yes, I do. You're still comparing missiles vs armor tank and projectiles vs shield tank. Compare projectiles vs armor and missiles vs shield too, that's a fair comparison. BTW: Trolls don't exist. In case you didn't get it the point Jim was trying to make was the almost i-auto-win-raven vs tempest. Sure you could shield tank the tempst, would just hurt the tempest even more. Though it would make the 3 DM mods on the tempest realistic. Yes, we all know how good the Raven looks in those charts. It has a solid history of looking good on paper but that doesn't make it an I-auto-win ship vs any ship. Originally by: Jim McGregor Actually I should remove some damage mods and also switch to lower tier guns to really show a realistic picture. But I dont like to see grown men cry. You used dual 425mm's, they don't get much lower tier than that. Although you're right about the damage mods, most tempests will only use one or two. But playing the game on paper is a tricky thing and everybody wants graphs put up in their own way while in reality they only tell half the story. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:02:00 - [63] Dixon, I could show you other turrets vs the Raven if you like, and most of them do suck. Even the blasterthron with 3 damage mods, void ammo and a full load of drones doesnt break 350 dps on the chart. Actually the only ship that seems to be able to deliver more dps than the Raven in this scenario is the Armageddon and the Abaddon if they fit tachyons and 3 damage mods (434 dps). So yeah, Raven is a great tanker...its just funny how the dps is also better than most other ships at the same time. Some people would call this unbalanced. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Instagib Amarr Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:10:00 - [64] Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Instagib Originally by: Dixon Yes, I do. You're still comparing missiles vs armor tank and projectiles vs shield tank. Compare projectiles vs armor and missiles vs shield too, that's a fair comparison. BTW: Trolls don't exist. In case you didn't get it the point Jim was trying to make was the almost i-auto-win-raven vs tempest. Sure you could shield tank the tempst, would just hurt the tempest even more. Though it would make the 3 DM mods on the tempest realistic. Yes, we all know how good the Raven looks in those charts. It has a solid history of looking good on paper but that doesn't make it an I-auto-win ship vs any ship. Well that's cause it's flown by noobs all the time. On the high SP scale it could easily be argued that it's only next to domi. Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Jim McGregor Actually I should remove some damage mods and also switch to lower tier guns to really show a realistic picture. But I dont like to see grown men cry. You used dual 425mm's, they don't get much lower tier than that. Although you're right about the damage mods, most tempests will only use one or two. But playing the game on paper is a tricky thing and everybody wants graphs put up in their own way while in reality they only tell half the story. Ugh, look again his new graphics, they use 800mm. Though I personally would like to see the EM hardener dropped on the raven to confrom the more standard: xlarge, amp, disruptor, 2xinvul, injector 3x dm, 1x ??, 1x dc And locked low slot layout on the tempest, you can't have both 3 DMs and heavy tank. Something on the lines of 2x LAR, DC, 1-2 EANM, 1-2 DMs...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:14:00 - [65] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/09/2006 20:14:49 Originally by: Instagib Though I personally would like to see the EM hardener dropped on the raven to confrom the more standard: xlarge, amp, disruptor, 2xinvul, injector 3x dm, 1x ??, 1x dc And locked low slot layout on the tempest, you can't have both 3 DMs and heavy tank. Something on the lines of 2x LAR, DC, 1-2 EANM, 1-2 DMs... NB is working on a tanking spreadsheet... I hope he finishes it. Last I heard he was trying to think up a way to make it look user friendly. He felt the math was the easy part. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Instagib Amarr Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:19:00 - [66] Originally by: Instagib Though I personally would like to see the EM hardener dropped on the raven to confrom the more standard: xlarge, amp, disruptor, 2xinvul, injector 3x dm, 1x ??, 1x dc And locked low slot layout on the tempest, you can't have both 3 DMs and heavy tank. Something on the lines of 2x LAR, DC, 1-2 EANM, 1-2 DMs... I forgot to add I also find it very silly to have those 2x sieges on the tempest. Even though HW nos isn't needed for cap with injector they (or neut) are so much more important these days to deal with tacklers, hacs, etc. Just my option, else you might as well put neutrons on the raven or something silly.
Instagib Amarr Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:20:00 - [67] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/09/2006 20:14:49 Originally by: Instagib Though I personally would like to see the EM hardener dropped on the raven to confrom the more standard: xlarge, amp, disruptor, 2xinvul, injector 3x dm, 1x ??, 1x dc And locked low slot layout on the tempest, you can't have both 3 DMs and heavy tank. Something on the lines of 2x LAR, DC, 1-2 EANM, 1-2 DMs... NB is working on a tanking spreadsheet... I hope he finishes it. Last I heard he was trying to think up a way to make it look user friendly. He felt the math was the easy part. :) ahh, interesting. Will be nifty to see what ugly truths it's gona uncover
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:24:00 - [68] Do we honestly even need to go through all this just to prove that ACs r underpowered? I mean just read all the posts ever made at how ever race jokes about us and how projectile (though flexible w ammo) have crap dps and need "2"...yes u saw it right 2 damage bonuses to even get close to being decent.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:25:00 - [69] Originally by: Instagib I forgot to add I also find it very silly to have those 2x sieges on the tempest. Even though HW nos isn't needed for cap with injector they (or neut) are so much more important these days to deal with tacklers, hacs, etc. Just my option, else you might as well put neutrons on the raven or something silly. Yeah I know... I just put them there to not get the argument "what about the launchers?" when i was trying to show dps. The dps in these charts are actually ALOT more than what a practical setup would use... and STILL it sucks. Tempest with only 2 damage mods and 6 425's using phased plasma only barely makes 300 dps. And thats at almost point blank... 5000 meters away. At 20000 meters the dps is down to 220 dps. And thats the best ammo available to break the shield. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:32:00 - [70] Originally by: Jim McGregor Dixon, I could show you other turrets vs the Raven if you like, and most of them do suck. Even the blasterthron with 3 damage mods, void ammo and a full load of drones doesnt break 350 dps on the chart. Actually the only ship that seems to be able to deliver more dps than the Raven in this scenario is the Armageddon and the Abaddon if they fit tachyons and 3 damage mods (434 dps). So yeah, Raven is a great tanker...its just funny how the dps is also better than most other ships at the same time. Some people would call this unbalanced. jim you have to understand while caldarie have probably the best tank and ussualy good dps they lack speed.This ussualy means you can avoid them easly and they can't hold ya down.Sure this means its able to take on more,but at the same time its more easly ganked as i can't out run small gank groups. But i agree with everything else.As a pure minmatar specialist it seems we don't pack enough in anyone sector.We are not the jack of all trades as much as people seem to think.We are infact the speed & versatility. For some reason versatility got muddy somewhere and nowadays it means more kinds of weapons systems.This does not equal versatility. "Versatility - having or capable of many uses: a versatile tool." Lets take the phoon for example,ussualy considered the most versatile ship in game.It can use Guns/drones/missles.At first sight it might appear that this would be great but its not.The reason being it needs all 3 of these systems to get upto par in terms of damage. So basicly this does not make a ship more versatile it just makes it more resourceful.If it gets jammed it still has its drones.And when the target is too far it has missles. At the end of the day it sounds like a good idea but its not sence all 3 systems have to be working to measure upto the other battleships.And it just gives the minmatar a lot more stuff to train. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:38:00 - [71] Originally by: xeom jim you have to understand while caldarie have probably the best tank and ussualy good dps they lack speed.This ussualy means you can avoid them easly and they can't hold ya down.Sure this means its able to take on more,but at the same time its more easly ganked as i can't out run small gank groups. Yep, thats a fair point. I guess the Raven can be seen as a heavy weight boxer.. not very fast, but can take alot of damage and also deliver some really good damage. The megathron can do more dps than the Raven in the chart if its using void ammo, 3 damage mods... and drones. But it has to get within 10000 meters to do it. I think these charts explain alot... why Ravens usually win vs blasterthrons etc, despite their high damage. Personally i didnt really understand how much dps the Ravens could put out until tonight. Tanking means alot. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:45:00 - [72] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/09/2006 20:46:12 Originally by: Rehmes Do we honestly even need to go through all this just to prove that ACs r underpowered? I mean just read all the posts ever made at how ever race jokes about us and how projectile (though flexible w ammo) have crap dps and need "2"...yes u saw it right 2 damage bonuses to even get close to being decent. I dont know if they are underpowered, but they have big problems delivering enough thermal damage to out-dps the Raven using 2 invuln + EM hardener. Projectiles are still good vs armor though.. and luckily most people are armor tanking. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Instagib Amarr Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:47:00 - [73] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Instagib I forgot to add I also find it very silly to have those 2x sieges on the tempest. Even though HW nos isn't needed for cap with injector they (or neut) are so much more important these days to deal with tacklers, hacs, etc. Just my option, else you might as well put neutrons on the raven or something silly. Yeah I know... I just put them there to not get the argument "what about the launchers?" when i was trying to show dps. The dps in these charts are actually ALOT more than what a practical setup would use... and STILL it sucks. Tempest with only 2 damage mods and 6 425's using phased plasma only barely makes 300 dps. And thats at almost point blank... 5000 meters away. At 20000 meters the dps is down to 220 dps. And thats the best ammo available to break the shield. yeah, your competely right about the silly "what about the launchers?" argument. I personally agree would like to see the tempest have something that it can do better than the others BSes. The alpha strike hardly accounts for being that useful now with HP boost and stacking nerf, not that I ever thought it was so useful. And since the tempest is really just your typical ship minmatar ship. Decent at many things, good/best at nothing I guess you could argue the same should be done for most minmatar ships. I really find the vaga to be a role model for how more minnie ships should be. And ffs it's nowhere as "overpowered" as the rumors would make one believe.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.02 21:14:00 - [74] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/09/2006 20:46:12 Originally by: Rehmes Do we honestly even need to go through all this just to prove that ACs r underpowered? I mean just read all the posts ever made at how ever race jokes about us and how projectile (though flexible w ammo) have crap dps and need "2"...yes u saw it right 2 damage bonuses to even get close to being decent. I dont know if they are underpowered, but they have big problems delivering enough thermal damage to out-dps the Raven using 2 invuln + EM hardener. Projectiles are still good vs armor though.. and luckily most people are armor tanking. :) True but im not asking for a huge power buff to matar, i simply want our ships to be able to have decent damage w/o having to use up 2 of the bonuses to do so. If u look at it they wanna call us "versatile" but honestly if u have a ship w both bonuses dedicated to making sure its guns ever penetrate any armor then u lose another bonus which could in fact give the ship more versatility. On the other hand my main arguement is what the OP stated. We hare supposed to be the fastest race (which is true) but the truth is that its practically a nonfactor (vaga/stab dont count DONT ANYONE USE THAT ARGUEMENT). That means that we as a race have no true niche 10-20 m/s faster than the rest is nothing (and yes i know skills/ab/mwd help but all races have the asame things available to them. What i want: -Increase all matar ships base speed/agility (thats our only true way of tanking for godsake, we simply dont compare to the others in either shield or armor) -INcrease the base dmg of our guns (they dont have to necessarily be on-par w hybrids, simply enough to not have to use the gun bonuses to be useful) -Our race's Ew is TP/Web id like our ships to have web bonuses (btw CCP either fix TP so it actually helps matar, cuz honestly caldari get better use of it than we do; or give us scramble EW bonuses on some ships) With that said our race doesnt outclass anyone in armor/shield/power but it does in fact have a way to defent itself w migher speed/agility and w decent enough damage to be a factor.
Instagib Amarr Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.09.02 21:40:00 - [75] Not that I fly nor spec in minmatar, but changes I would personally be interested in seeing would be something like: -Increased speed (+10-30%) -Lowered signature (-5-15%) I really favor those two over damage increase, though I would like to see: -Rof ROF bonuses -> Damage bonuses and 5-10% dps increase on all projectiles. Safes ammo for ACes and gives Arties more meaningful aplha. Actual damage increase would only be 0-5% due to ROF bonuses being stronger than Damage bonuses. Not an issue if the ships were actually faster or had more meaningful lower signature, but as it is now: -HP buff? I currently don't see any balance reason for the lowest total HP. Maybe lowest structure, but not lowest armor+shield.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:01:00 - [76] Edited by: Rehmes on 02/09/2006 22:02:45 Edited by: Rehmes on 02/09/2006 22:02:26 Originally by: Instagib Not that I fly nor spec in minmatar, but changes I would personally be interested in seeing would be something like: -Increased speed (+10-30%) -Lowered signature (-5-15%) I really favor those two over damage increase, though I would like to see: -Rof ROF bonuses -> Damage bonuses and 5-10% dps increase on all projectiles. Safes ammo for ACes and gives Arties more meaningful aplha. Actual damage increase would only be 0-5% due to ROF bonuses being stronger than Damage bonuses. Not an issue if the ships were actually faster or had more meaningful lower signature, but as it is now: -HP buff? I currently don't see any balance reason for the lowest total HP. Maybe lowest structure, but not lowest armor+shield. Honestly i totally overlooked the sig radius of the ships, then again most people will probably whine about it even though theyr ships can tank beyond any amount matar ships could ever hope to do.Good proposals. Again im not asking to overpower matar, i simply want our niche to be realized. i want SPEED!!!!!!
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:12:00 - [77] An additional suggestion: Why not increase the base damage of all projectiles by 25% and take off any damage mod bonuses (NOT ROF BONUSES), replacing them with something else? I think its silly that the ships need two DPS bonuses to be roughly equal to other ships (actually its still less) in DPS. So DPS would be the same as now, and the ships would all get a new bonus.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:29:00 - [78] Originally by: Tasty Burger An additional suggestion: Why not increase the base damage of all projectiles by 25% and take off any damage mod bonuses (NOT ROF BONUSES), replacing them with something else? I think its silly that the ships need two DPS bonuses to be roughly equal to other ships (actually its still less) in DPS. So DPS would be the same as now, and the ships would all get a new bonus. I think it was said earlier but yes thats a very good suggestion because it leaves us an empty bonus which we could use and make our ships get up to par w the other races. And before other races start naming great matar ships remember: rupture 2dmg bonus, dont say pest because it also has 2 dmg bonus. And ill simply ignore vaga comments due to the fact that it is perhaps the only matar ships that is true to our race.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:35:00 - [79] Originally by: Tasty Burger Why not increase the base damage of all projectiles by 25% and take off any damage mod bonuses (NOT ROF BONUSES), replacing them with something else? I think its silly that the ships need two DPS bonuses to be roughly equal to other ships (actually its still less) in DPS. So DPS would be the same as now, and the ships would all get a new bonus. Because it would be hugely overpowered? Reminds me of similar suggestions for lasers in the amarr thread. The "low minnie" dps isn't really that low. 1400mm + ROF bonus has 97% of Mega Beam Laser dps. Same optimal, better falloff, worse tracking. 3% less dps for zero capuse is IMO a fair enough trade... 800mm + ROF bonus has 120% of Mega Pulse Laser dps. With high damage ammo both weapons have about the same maximum effecient range (optimal + falloff). The 800 will mostly fight in it's falloff, though, so in the end we should have a similar ratio as with the longrange guns.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:43:00 - [80] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Tasty Burger Why not increase the base damage of all projectiles by 25% and take off any damage mod bonuses (NOT ROF BONUSES), replacing them with something else? I think its silly that the ships need two DPS bonuses to be roughly equal to other ships (actually its still less) in DPS. So DPS would be the same as now, and the ships would all get a new bonus. Because it would be hugely overpowered? Reminds me of similar suggestions for lasers in the amarr thread. The "low minnie" dps isn't really that low. 1400mm + ROF bonus has 97% of Mega Beam Laser dps. Same optimal, better falloff, worse tracking. 3% less dps for zero capuse is IMO a fair enough trade... 800mm + ROF bonus has 120% of Mega Pulse Laser dps. With high damage ammo both weapons have about the same maximum effecient range (optimal + falloff). The 800 will mostly fight in it's falloff, though, so in the end we should have a similar ratio as with the longrange guns. Ur not understanding something crusial were not asking to increase base dmg of our proj by 25% and then stack w the dmg bonus on the ship. Were asking to raise the base dmg of proj while also getting rid of the dmg bonus on ships; by doing that u simply have the same dmg as before however that frees up another slot on ship bonuses for us to truly have a secong bonus Like other races (xcep amar, and truly feel their pain w the cap bonus). And while the math u posted is true that would have to be w the ships bonuses included, our proposal would leave the same dmg we would simply be using another bonus other than dmg % Think something like this, other than dmg bonus due to the dmg increase in our guns we'd be using something like this: -ROF -Falloff -Tracking -webber -TP -Speed -etc
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:49:00 - [81] Edited by: Aramendel on 02/09/2006 22:52:29 Originally by: Rehmes Ur not understanding something crusial... Afraid the person who is not understanding is you. Burger asked for the removal of the +25% damage bonus (which only exists on a few ships, too) and speciically said (in big bold letters) that the base 25% ROF should stay. ....increase the base damage of all projectiles by 25% and take off any damage mod bonuses (NOT ROF BONUSES)...
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:59:00 - [82] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 02/09/2006 22:52:29 Originally by: Rehmes Ur not understanding something crusial... Afraid the person who is not understanding is you. Burger asked for the removal of the +25% damage bonus (which only exists on a few ships, too) and speciically said (in big bold letters) that the base 25% ROF should stay. ....increase the base damage of all projectiles by 25% and take off any damage mod bonuses (NOT ROF BONUSES)... I understood that completely, even w dmg bonus and rof bonus our guns dont outdamage any other so i dont see y it would be a bad idea. PLz note that the only ships that dont have 2 gun bonuses and still work at all are the vaga/stabber/cyclone (tanking only split sytems ruins this ship a tad) By all means ur welcome to tell which matar ship that doesnt have 2 dmg bonuses outdamages its counterpart. Hell ur even welcome to tell which which ship WITH the 2 dmg bonuses does more damage than its couterpart.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:09:00 - [83] O-kay...I see you are a bit slow. To repeat myself: 1400mm + ROF bonus has 97% of Mega Beam Laser dps. ROF bonus only. No damage bonus. Only ROF. "Only" 97% of the damage and in exchnage zero zip zilch capuse. How exactly is the minnie gun too weak here? Note that lasers get as standart bonus -50% capuse, so they do not have a dps boost from thefirst shipbonus. If you increase the damage of the projectile gun by 25% we would get 1400mm + ROF bonus + 25% damage boost has 121% of Mega Beam Laser dps. After the first ship bonus. 20% more dps and no capuse. Yes, sounds very balanced to me.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:20:00 - [84] Originally by: Aramendel O-kay...I see you are a bit slow. To repeat myself: 1400mm + ROF bonus has 97% of Mega Beam Laser dps. ROF bonus only. No damage bonus. Only ROF. "Only" 97% of the damage and in exchnage zero zip zilch capuse. How exactly is the minnie gun too weak here? Note that lasers get as standart bonus -50% capuse, so they do not have a dps boost from thefirst shipbonus. If you increase the damage of the projectile gun by 25% we would get 1400mm + ROF bonus + 25% damage boost has 121% of Mega Beam Laser dps. After the first ship bonus. 20% more dps and no capuse. Yes, sounds very balanced to me. I understand amarian cap bonuses suck and so does the amount of cap thay use And alos the fact that they should have higher thermal damage. I have said in other posts to also get rid of cap bonuses on amar/decrease cap usage per laser gun, thereby opnening another bonus for u guys. and thus allowing ur ships to be more flexible w bonuses as well. HAVING BONUSES ON SHIPS ONLY TO ALLOW U TO USE THEM CORRECTLY IS CRAP!!!. Having said that id like to point ou that in 1v1 people just dont use 1400mm, because is suicide. 1400mm is there for sniping/fleet encounters not rly for 1v1 (thought that could be argued). Now since im very lazy w math y dont u try comparing both of those guns to the rails mega uses for sniping... Also plz know that im not trying to create the master race out the matars, ive said it many times i simply want our race to have its niche realized and the fact that our guns suck compared to others is one of thos issues. Amarian have a similar issue w their cap bonuses but thats another topic and its been played out in many of the posts in this forum.
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:31:00 - [85] Originally by: Aramendel O-kay...I see you are a bit slow. To repeat myself: 1400mm + ROF bonus has 97% of Mega Beam Laser dps. ROF bonus only. No damage bonus. Only ROF. "Only" 97% of the damage and in exchnage zero zip zilch capuse. How exactly is the minnie gun too weak here? Note that lasers get as standart bonus -50% capuse, so they do not have a dps boost from thefirst shipbonus. If you increase the damage of the projectile gun by 25% we would get 1400mm + ROF bonus + 25% damage boost has 121% of Mega Beam Laser dps. After the first ship bonus. 20% more dps and no capuse. Yes, sounds very balanced to me. You fail to take into account that Minmatar ships have fewer turret hardpoints than Amarr ships. Tempest has 6 while the Apoc has 8. So while 1400mm with dual damage bonus might do more damage PER GUN, this isn't necessarily true for the total dps of the ship. Adding the 25% damage to the base stats and dropping the damage bonus wouldn't change the maximum Minmatar DPS, it would just make it easier on lower skilled pilots and add the possibility of a second bonus which could help bring Minmatar closer to balanced. Note: While the Tempest might actually do more dps than the Apoc (not sure if it does or not), the Apoc can put together a much better tank than the tempest could. Also note that the Armageddon gets an extra turret and a RoF bonus. signature removed - please email us if you want to find out why (include the URL to it) - Jacques([email protected])
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:33:00 - [86] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Rehmes HAVING BONUSES ON SHIPS ONLY TO ALLOW U TO USE THEM CORRECTLY IS CRAP!!!. This is the case for ALL ships. Amarr have -cap Minnies have -rof Gallente have +damage Caldari (missleships) have -rof. Without the appropriate shipbonus every weaponclass gets weaker. Weapon performance is balanced for weapon + racial shipbonus. This does not effect minnies only but is an universal mechanic. And since it effects every ship minnies are in no disadvantage there. I think you need to stop picking and choosing, because you know exactly what he means. He means that it isn't fair that two bonuses are needed to make the ship flyable, while only one is needed on the others.
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:35:00 - [87] Originally by: Aramendel This is the case for ALL ships. Amarr have -cap Minnies have -rof Gallente have +damage Caldari (missleships) have -rof. Without the appropriate shipbonus every weaponclass gets weaker. Weapon performance is balanced for weapon + racial shipbonus. This does not effect minnies only but is an universal mechanic. And since it effects every ship minnies are in no disadvantage there. Except Minmatar needs -rof and +damage to get anywhere close to the other races. At that point there is no room left for a useful bonus and ships without both -rof and +damage are hardly worth flying. signature removed - please email us if you want to find out why (include the URL to it) - Jacques([email protected])
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:37:00 - [88] Originally by: Tasty Burger I fail to see what the hell you are on about. Removing the ship damage bonus and replacing that with a built-in bonus on the gun... does exactly the same thing DPS wise as leaving it as-is. Because you would get an extra bonus perhaps? Right now projectile + first shipbonus has, as shown, equal effeciency to laser + first shipbonus. Quote: I will note that it does mean that the DPS of projectiles on ships like the typhoon, stabber, and such would increase because it doesn't have a damage bonus to remove. However, I want you to note that these ships have craptastic turret damage in the first place... Typhoon does right now more dps than the tempest (needs more skills to do that though). Stabber is not meant as dps ship, but as hit & run scirmisher. I am right now flying a cyclone (only 1 damage bonus, too), where I get with the same skill lvl about the same base dps as I got on a prophecy.
Lienzo Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:37:00 - [89] Were ECM not so very "win" atm, you would notice that minmatar ships are very hard to shut down. -Can still fight and sometimes even tank versus nos. -If turret systems get squelched, they still have missiles and drones. For better or worse, however, combat doesn't generally work around the averages, but on forcing the damage efficiency margin as high above the tanking margin as possible in a short space of time. If most tanks were passive, including armor tanks, tactically resilient and flexible ships like Minmatar would shine.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:37:00 - [90] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Rehmes HAVING BONUSES ON SHIPS ONLY TO ALLOW U TO USE THEM CORRECTLY IS CRAP!!!. This is the case for ALL ships. Amarr have -cap Minnies have -rof Gallente have +damage Caldari (missleships) have -rof. Without the appropriate shipbonus every weaponclass gets weaker. Weapon performance is balanced for weapon + racial shipbonus. This does not effect minnies only but is an universal mechanic. And since it effects every ship minnies are in no disadvantage there. Look at the base damage of all gun types, then compare them matar guns. It is widely known that ALL projectiles r in fact weaker than hybrids/lasers hands down. The ONLY way to even get "close" is by stacking 2 dmg bonuses otherwise ANY ship using blasters/lasers w no dmg bonus at all will still do more base damage than projectiles lets not forget that our wonderful traking help us unimaginably. U say that only a couple of ships have 2 dmg bonuses and increasing base would overpower matar....how so? because if u pay close attention the ONLY ships that work for matar r the ones w those 2 dmg bonuses. Therefore increasing the base dmg all across would simply bring our guns up to par w other races (even the base increase wont get us ther cuz even w 2 dmg bonuses our guns still do less dmg than any other gun). Then again i should note that i lean more towards AC dmg than art, even though rails perform much better.

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