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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.03 23:11:00 -
[121]
Minmatar ships do one thing very well, and that's signature radius.
Which I'm sure, as really experienced combat pilots, you're not overlooking. The fact that e.g. a tempest has a 340m base signature, vs. say the 400m of the megathron gives it a useful advantage - any battleship sized gun has automatically got a 15% tracking reduction. And e.g. torpedos do 15% less damage. This situation becomes yet more relevant when talking about the smaller minmatar ships, vs. the larger.
They're not the _easiest_ of ships to fly, but in a game where signature radius affects pretty much everything in combat, being the race with the lowest signature radius is a notable advantage.
Paper DPS on ac/arty vs. blasters/rails might seeem to lose out a bit, but damage type versatility is surely worth _some_ damage per second sacrifice?
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Octavio Santillian
Curse Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.04 00:25:00 -
[122]
I'd like to respond to those who think I should not have used 425mm IIs in my charts. I understand your point, and it is valid in an abstract sense. I am attempting, however, to make real world charts, not theoretical paper comparisons. I fitted each ship with the guns and mods that reflect what pilots are actually flying, to the best of my understanding. I am certainly not an expert on the other races, so I took some time to peruse the forums and looked at set up posts for the non-minmatar battleships. I tried to use the most highly acclaimed setups. I realize that I could be totally off. In any case, it is clear I did not attempt to æmaximizeÆ the damage for non-matari ships. For some examples, I used Ion Blaster on the Mega, and I put no damage mods on the Apoc because thatÆs what the forums seem to suggest.
Now it is entirely possible that I donÆt know jack about how to fit non-matari battleships, but I do know how to outfit an Auto Tempest and Typhoon. Most Minmitar pilots use D425mm IIs instead of D650mm IIs on a Tempest because it allows them to fit a dual rep and MWD with a very minimal loss to theoretical DPS (4 DPS per gun or 24 DPS total). With AWU5 you can squeeze 650s on, but you have to downgrade your armor reps from T2 to accommodation. Almost no one uses 800mm IIs, as they gimp your setup and the loss in tracking not only mitigates any gain in damage, it the renders ship less effective against cruiser class vessels. I would prefer to use 650s just to save ammo, and I did use 650 Scouts before I could use T2. The reasons are similar on a Typhoon; if you want a tank, you have to fit the smaller guns. If you are going pure gank, you could probably fit 800 IIs.
In any case, here is a chare showing that there is minimal difference in damage between the guns. I didnÆt add drones or missiles to keep it focus on the guns.
Large Autos
On a Tempest, the difference between 425s and 650s is exactly 24 DPS and the Difference between 425s and 800s is 43 DPS. If you add 43 DPS to the original charts, you will see that it makes squat for difference. The difference for the Typhoon is even less.
PS I will be out of town for a few weeks as of tonight, so no more responses from me for a while. Have fun with the thread.
ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.04 17:35:00 -
[123]
If the higher tier guns wouldnt gimp the possibilities of a tank then theyd be used more frequently, but since AC are close range ur forced to try to put a decent tank, so u wont see many peopel use 800mm......if u do....they die very very fast...
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Kahor
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.04 19:30:00 -
[124]
I might also add we have the lower cargo hold for tier 2 BS (which is actualy very ammo consumming) and probably a lot of other ships as well.
And that we have a very low sensor strenght, compared to gallente and such.
An eye for an eye make a whole world blind.
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.09.04 19:45:00 -
[125]
 Originally by: Kahor
And that we have a very low sensor strenght, compared to gallente and such.
Not that it really matters that much: If you're in minmatar, or caldari, or whatever, you're still gonna get jammed.
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Estan Drake
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Posted - 2006.09.09 20:38:00 -
[126]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Minmatar ships do one thing very well, and that's signature radius.
Which I'm sure, as really experienced combat pilots, you're not overlooking. The fact that e.g. a tempest has a 340m base signature, vs. say the 400m of the megathron gives it a useful advantage - any battleship sized gun has automatically got a 15% tracking reduction. And e.g. torpedos do 15% less damage. This situation becomes yet more relevant when talking about the smaller minmatar ships, vs. the larger.
They're not the _easiest_ of ships to fly, but in a game where signature radius affects pretty much everything in combat, being the race with the lowest signature radius is a notable advantage.
Paper DPS on ac/arty vs. blasters/rails might seeem to lose out a bit, but damage type versatility is surely worth _some_ damage per second sacrifice?
And the situation becomes much less relevent when you take into account the poor tanks, poor capacitors, split mid/low slot configs on most of the ships, AND Minmatar ships are also usually among the lowest with base Hit Points over all and (i think) lowest armor HP.
This shield tanking considering Mimatar Mid slots are used up quite often with AB or MWD, webber, painter, what have you to make our guns an even match. (how many ravens fit Afterburner or MWD for battle?)
And the low HP hurts the armor tank while plates would reduce any speed advantage even further.
As for damage type versitility... Raven has that too except with 100% of the damge type and typically beats out Minmatar BSs for DPS. Sure I can chose between using EMP/EXP ammo with shorter range or Thermal/kin or Kin/Exp with the short range ammo types. But with longer ranged ammo your choices ecome rather more limited.
However, the real issue that needs addressed in reguard to Minmatar and Speed and DPS is the turret tracking. It either needs to be made so that if you are orbiting a stationary target, your speed doesn't affect your shots. Or they need to increase projectile tracking to take into account our "speed" advantage
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Estan Drake
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Posted - 2006.09.09 20:41:00 -
[127]
Just keeping the thread alive =)
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.10 03:10:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Estan Drake
Just keeping the thread alive =)
LOL long live matar....
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Awox
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Posted - 2006.09.10 04:00:00 -
[129]
I personally want realistic orbit tracking. This speed crap has to be useful somehow!!
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Mateo Barca
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Posted - 2006.09.10 04:27:00 -
[130]
Even with the current tracking system, speed still seems awfully useful. I just wish Minnie ships had even more of it than they do.
If it were a choice between more speed or more tracking, I know what I'd choose. :D
POST WITH YOUR ALT!!1! |
Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.10 04:46:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Mateo Barca
Even with the current tracking system, speed still seems awfully useful. I just wish Minnie ships had even more of it than they do.
If it were a choice between more speed or more tracking, I know what I'd choose. :D
Since were not the best tankers in any department, i think we could be more useful w the speed boost.
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Foulis
Minmatar
Chosen Path
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.10 05:05:00 -
[132]
I think a fix to the current tracking system would help everyone in general and minmatar specifically.
----
Cake > Pie - Imaran
Cathath > Imaran - Cathath
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Boobies
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Mateo Barca
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Posted - 2006.09.10 06:56:00 -
[133]
Well, a more realistic tracking system would be a boost for smaller and faster ships, but bad news for the rest. Do Intys need a boost vs. big ships? Do Frigates? I don't know enough yet to say for sure, but I doubt it. I'd sort of like that kind of tracking system, but I don't think it could just be slapped on without some fairly serious rebalancing.
The current system doesn't bug me quite so much any more, ever since some guy whose name I forget brought up the fact that a small ship orbiting a large one to evade gun fire is itself very unrealistic. His idea was that the orbits are really just approximations, and the small ships are constantly making evasive actions in order to keep their trajectories unpredictable. Of course, that affects *their* tracking too.
/shrug
POST WITH YOUR ALT!!1! |
Learesh
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.09.10 07:50:00 -
[134]
Originally by: too many people in this thread
ZOMG joo have teh Vaga , and Vaga catch interceptorz IMBA !
Vaga is a great ship, but it doesn't outrun any single interceptor, UNLESS the pilot invested at least 600 million in specialized implants, and to really shine the vaga needs 2.5 billion worth of implants.
If you put the same implants in an inty pilot, they would be even faster.
Stop comparing a ship + HUGE amounts of capital invested to just a generic t2 ship.
I don't agree with added DPS to projectile guns. They are the way they are to prevent Amarr from using their incredible tanking alongside our no cap using guns.
Three tempests coordinating with three inties in a six man gang can play cat and mouse and pop battleships of larger gangs all day long due to their combined alpha strike and make people pee their pants.
Sure Alpha strike sucks solo, it should.
What I would like to see is a CHANGE towards more usefull EW, TP'ing is just bull,and you cant buff tp too much, or caldari will become even more ridiculously popular in the future.
Webbing bonuses + agility + speed buffs that's where it's at.
And I agree giving a bit more flexible highslots to the Phoon (5/5 instead of 4/4 for eight slots) will make it into perfect pocket BS.
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Soyemia
Minmatar
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.10 08:35:00 -
[135]
Matari need: 25% damage increase to base damage of projectile and then on dmg bonus slot id put speed bonus.
Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes |
Shadowsword
Gallente
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2006.09.10 10:36:00 -
[136]
As this thread speak about general race balancing, speaking about specific ships (omg vagabbond is uber, so minnies are the pwn...No the bellicose is gimped, to minnies are gimped...) is worthless.
To the OP, just this observation: Minmatar ships, on average, can tank better than gallente ships. Gallente ships have a capacitor that is a little bigger, but their weapons use a lot of cap. And their speed advantage, while not being a win/loss factor in fights, is still not insignifiant. You'll say that you can't tank as well as Amarr/gallente because of slots layout, but those same slots allow you to use EW, to some extent. And capacitor size isn't really a factor anymore, in a world of cap boosters.
So, if you had as much DPS as the other races, Minmatar ships would become THE flavor of the month, and a nerf would follow, bringing them sup-par to what they currently are...
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Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward?
Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy. |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.10 10:53:00 -
[137]
Once hyperion arrives, it will be less fun to be minmatar... :p
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
errorist
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Posted - 2006.09.10 12:10:00 -
[138]
ok i admit that the minmatar bs are no where a match vs gallente bs at close range, not sure about long range though.
But also to state that yes u need to put alot of isk into the vaga before it pwns, but once u have done that it can nearly take on any bs without losing.
a vaga recently took at my fully tanked dominix fittet for ANGEL ratting.. it killed me even sustaining the 3 nos i had on it, 5 t2 heavy drones with a painter, so the vaga is pretty much the only good ship matari got.
But that they dont need any cap to run guns makes them have a huge advantage over races like amarr and gallente since their guns eat up quite alot of cap.
the blastermegathron is still hard to fitt even with the cpu and grid changes for the blasters, cause it can barely fitt tank, that is important for not instant popping vs the non cap using ac tempest that can use all its cap to keep 2 lar II running.
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CptEagle
Gallente
Stargate Command...
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Posted - 2006.09.10 12:38:00 -
[139]
Lol try instapopping a t2 frigate with a sniperthron. The sniperthron got crappy dmg mod, so the target gets away before the second volley can hit, while a 1400mm Tempest can instapop them easily, plus it locks faster.
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Soyemia
Minmatar
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.10 14:32:00 -
[140]
Back up, I wanna devs to see this!
Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes |
MissileRus
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Posted - 2006.09.10 17:16:00 -
[141]
Edited by: MissileRus on 10/09/2006 17:26:11
id say no to ships with no damage bonuses and speed/agillety bonuses instead. even if DPS was boosted to counter it, how fun and meaningfull is it to have a uber battleship and it only have speed bonus and some targetpaining bonus? there would be more whine about not having damage bonuses on the ships if that happened.
im minmatar despite this alt  and the time investment is not worth it. artillery cant be used without damage mods as the ROF is silly, autocannons.. well we got bigger ammo clips so thx..
but artillery, to be usefull you need to max gunnery skills, have a ship with 2 damage bonuses, and still use damage mods. compare to other races "big" guns and all the nerfing, the 1400mm artillery is more and more like the other races. the low tracking and slow ROF has always been there to balance the DPS advantage right? well the alpha strikes and stuff have been nerfed several times. the king of guns is like any other gun now except lower tracking and silly ROF that makes it unusable without 2 damage bonuses+mods+good skills. nerf whine messed up our balanced guns. we could kill stuff in one volley, but we got the penalties on the guns. they removed the alpha but left the penalties.
edit: we should pwn, we invest more time and have a harder time playing so we should have advantage. 1400mm is huge, its bigger then other guns, but dps is same. sure instant damage is nice but other things realy nerfs it and it is ONLY usable in fleet. i wouldnt dream using it for solo without sniping BMs, where other ships can use their large guns for solo. they can even hit stuff very close where the 1400mm can hit a planet at 20km.
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4. i like pizza |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.10 17:57:00 -
[142]
Minnie isnt so bad... explosive damage is still the best vs armor. :)
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.10 18:12:00 -
[143]
Matari cant tank as good as other races because thats not what they are intended to do. Our ship's HP are lower than any other races for their specific class. CCP balances this by giving matar ships lower sig and higher base speed. The issue is that the speed/agility we get is almost a nonfactor compared toa full tank. If our speed/agility would bring our survival up to par w other races tanks, then id say matar have found their niche. Thats what the OP wanted, to truly give the matar their niche.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.10 18:16:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 10/09/2006 18:18:29
Id love to see a +25% speed boost across the board for all minnie ships... but everyone else would be upset when they cant catch them. :)
Just look at the Vagabond.. when speed matters to that degree, the ship becomes really really hard to catch. People are fine with minnie having speedy ships, but only when it doesnt really matter. You dont really see any complaints about minmatar being too fast now, do you.... :)
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.10 18:24:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 10/09/2006 18:18:29
Id love to see a +25% speed boost across the board for all minnie ships... but everyone else would be upset when they cant catch them. :)
Just look at the Vagabond.. when speed matters to that degree, the ship becomes really really hard to catch. People are fine with minnie having speedy ships, but only when it doesnt really matter. You dont really see any complaints about minmatar being too fast now, do you.... :)
Yeah i know....i can only see the amount of matar pilots multiplying if we has a base speed bonus of 25%.
But honestly i think if the base speed was only increased by about 10% along w about 10% agility that would be acceptable and would make us more nimble. When it comes to tanking there is a ship that will out tank the matar one in its class, so i dont see why we shouldnt get that speed/agility bonus.....
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2006.09.10 18:35:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 10/09/2006 18:39:29
Originally by: Rehmes
Yeah i know....i can only see the amount of matar pilots multiplying if we has a base speed bonus of 25%.
But honestly i think if the base speed was only increased by about 10% along w about 10% agility that would be acceptable and would make us more nimble.
/me likey
(...at least for Frigates and Cruisers. Larger classes of ships I don't know well enough.)
You could accomplish much the same thing in one swoop by reducing mass.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.09.10 19:11:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 10/09/2006 18:39:29
Originally by: Rehmes
Yeah i know....i can only see the amount of matar pilots multiplying if we has a base speed bonus of 25%.
But honestly i think if the base speed was only increased by about 10% along w about 10% agility that would be acceptable and would make us more nimble.
/me likey
(...at least for Frigates and Cruisers. Larger classes of ships I don't know well enough.)
You could accomplish much the same thing in one swoop by reducing mass.
Mass rediction makes sense; so sure y not. As far as big ships go i think theyll still benefit. NaNophoon anyone? The tempest is the smallest tier 2 bs atm so it can evade more than the normal bs however its nto enough to bypass its deficiency as a tank compared to the other ships (shield:raven Armor:apoc/domi/mega)) If we were to get that 10% increase in speed/agility im sure it would make up for the handicap.
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Seth Drathcar
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Posted - 2006.09.13 23:57:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Seth Drathcar on 13/09/2006 23:57:24
I read most of this post, mainly cause i needed an answer to my problem, "I trained up all the skills needed to increase my dmg and tankin ability but I still can't seem to do anything?" and I'm getting frustrated with talking to other members and getting the response "I don't know what's the problem, I can do that easy!".
So I dive into this post looking for the answer.....and the answer I get is this. Start training up the other races ships cause the matar's suck! I don't want to do that but will this post ever go anywhere like getting CCP to change things. Do you think this is really going to happen? I'm open minded but I just don't see this happening in the next year or so.... which really sucks- suck point number two.
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Octavio Santillian
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.09.23 01:30:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Seth Drathcar
Edited by: Seth Drathcar on 13/09/2006 23:57:24
I read most of this post, mainly cause i needed an answer to my problem, "I trained up all the skills needed to increase my dmg and tankin ability but I still can't seem to do anything?" and I'm getting frustrated with talking to other members and getting the response "I don't know what's the problem, I can do that easy!".
So I dive into this post looking for the answer.....and the answer I get is this. Start training up the other races ships cause the matar's suck! I don't want to do that but will this post ever go anywhere like getting CCP to change things. Do you think this is really going to happen? I'm open minded but I just don't see this happening in the next year or so.... which really sucks- suck point number two.
Well I'm back!
Sometimes posts like this can seem grim to perspective Matari pilots; you shouldnÆt let them scare you off much (well too much). Matari ships just seem to appeal to a certain type of player, and if they don't appeal to you, they may never do so.
The Matari fleet has a good/great ship in just about every class, but they are a bit frustrating because when all things are equal, they generally donÆt stack up stat wise. On the one hand, their æoddÆ combination of advantages and disadvantages allow the æminmatar typeÆ of player to take advantage of a wide range of other playersÆ weaknesses. They are also one of the premier solo races because many of their ships can tackle and fight at the same time (at least well enough) and theyÆre slippery. But on the other hand, they generally suffer from an overall stats disadvantage. When players of reasonably equal game savvy and skill points lock in combat, the matari ships are often at a raw stats disadvantage, so matari ships are like the ærogueÆ class of Eve. They have to carefully pick fights that they can win, and they have to use their ability to run when they canÆt. The problem is that only a few Matari ships really fit that mold substantially better than the other races. Most minmatar combat ships are designed to æbrawlÆ (in some from or other) just like most combat ships in Eve are designed to do, and ours generally donÆt æbrawlÆ as well.
Is it all so crippling that flying Matari is a lost causeàby no means. Is there a need for some tweakingàby all means.
ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.09.23 02:55:00 -
[150]
i mostly agree matari ships need a boost in base speed and agility (or mass)
most of the time the improvement over other ships is not enought to be considered a real advantage and to justify their weakness in armor/shields, lowest targetting range and sensor weakness.
these are all "structural" weakness that should be balanced in some way sign radius, speed/maneuverability and fast targetting are supposed to balance that but in my opinion they don't do this fully, expecially under speed departement, where the improvement over other ships most of the time is not that influential.
also the mass/speed of some ships should be revised (i'm referring to inties in particular), in my opinion is "funny" that a caldari ceptor (slowest and less maneuverable race) is faster and more maneuverable than a minnie ceptor, expecially considering that these 2 factors are the supposed strong points of minnie ships.
is also quite "strange" that the Slasher (T1 interceptor reference frigate) have base stats that makes it more maneuverable than the stiletto (exept of course in the situation when the ceptor use all its lows with nanos)
in some ships i even see some "design" problems, that i think is "linked" with the way they are tought.
sometimes i have the feeling that some stats or some slots allocation are chosen only for some "race guidelines"
the split slot allocation that "plague" so many minnie ships, the "low" number of mid slots even on ship geared to shield tank, the shield/armor hps inverted on some ships...
are all things that can makes sense on paper but in the end if you have not enought mid slots you are not going to shields tank, if you have fixed split slot allocation you are not going to gain in versatility... and so on.
if minnies are supposed to be good in proj/missile this doesn't necessary mean that minnie missile boat are wannabe missile boat with half missile slots but imo it should mean that minnie can produce good (primary) missile boats with an approach different than caldari (tank/power/range) one.
another problem i see in minnie ships (actually the big problem imo) is the weapons they use... said that a lot of time, but imo proj, ACs in particular, need a big rework.
they should get more dps or tracking as atm, expecially for large ACs) i think they are not really comparable.
to bring some data... proj do around 25% less damage than hybrids (ACs even a bit less), on the other hand they have 10% more tracking.
the ship bonus are 25% for damage and 37.5 for tracking....
there are also other factors to keep in account, alpha, faloff, optimal, cap consumption... but in the end i think that ACs generally suffer a bit from a "missing bonus"
another proj problem is actually fitting... there is a huge difference between long range and short range guns and this in some situation became a gimp factor for minnie ships, as for the muninn or the typhonn, the only ships in their category that can fit an "efficent" long range setup due to lack of PG.
in the end i still like minnies, but (as for amarr) i think they where a bit "left behind", not to a point to "gimp" them, but still i think that some tweaks here and there are needed...
sorry for the long whiny post :P
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