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Harpoon Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:51:00 - [1] ... what will happen, provided that both pilots are equally skilled and willing to kill each other? 1. The HAC will win, because HACs are the best Solo-PvP ships. 2. The BC will win, because BCs are HAC-killers!
Prisoner1033948	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:53:00 - [2] Depends on which hac. But i remember a guy who used to kill hac after hac in his cyclone. he used ecm tho. but my money is on the hac since some of em will outdamage the bc and most of em will have a way stronger tank. ---------------------------------------- I R ZEPHIRZ!!!!111one My mains account is inactive atm srry
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:53:00 - [3] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 04/09/2006 09:53:18 That depends on which HAC is involved, which BC, their respective setups and the range at which the encounter takes place. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Vathar Elegance	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:54:00 - [4] Very difficult to tell, it depends A LOT on fittings and initial engagement conditions. But I will say that a SKILLED BC is not something to laugh at if you're in a HAC. _ Originally by: Stamm Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing an uzi
Laythun Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:07:00 - [5] Recon > BC *See You In Space Cowboy*
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:19:00 - [6] Originally by: Rodj Blake That depends on which HAC is involved, which BC, their respective setups and the range at which the encounter takes place. Totally QFT. Originally by: Laythun Recon > BC How very unrelated of you. Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Kalek Astroth Amarr The Electrocuted	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:13:00 - [7] there is only one Bc that does (blaster fitted) a Bs like damage : brutix , imho it s untankable by an hac ... in all other engagements my 0.02 goes for hacs
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:15:00 - [8] When a HAC meets a BC ... hhmm tbh hac gona die most of time if bc is well setuped with expierenced pilot /me hugs his deimos Hey i get paid to be ebil - Xorus I don't - Imz0r
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:22:00 - [9] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter When a HAC meets a BC ... hhmm tbh hac gona die most of time if bc is well setuped with expierenced pilot /me hugs his deimos /me Warms up his brutix Soon to be astarte \/ --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:29:00 - [10] As someone said, it's an unanswerable question. Depends on the exact two ships, setups, implants, skills, skillpoints, circumstances, and more. Just like any fight, really. In general, BCs do tend to be good at killing HACs, all things being equal. A lot of HACs tend to be partially or fully faction fitted and such though, which leads to them often killing BCs. A good example of this is me losing (having to warp out) against missile Feroxes when I first flew my Vaga. Now, doing 4.5km/s makes their DPS laughable. Originally by: D'Hofren The amazing boost amarr thread with it's amorphic elastic maths Scrapheap Challenge!

Dupac Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:34:00 - [11] Originally by: Kalek Astroth there is only one Bc that does (blaster fitted) a Bs like damage : brutix , imho it s untankable by an hac ... in all other engagements my 0.02 goes for hacs Depends - I've killed brutix np with a zealot - but I've seen BC give me a hard time as well. Depends on skills, situation, setups, experience. The usual
Laythun Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:45:00 - [12] In my experience...in normal conditions (ie during wartime, or 0.0 pvp) a hac usually comes out on top, ive yet to see a decently setup hac die to a BC. Hell i'd even take a sac against a BC.. *See You In Space Cowboy*
Ozzie Asrail Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:56:00 - [13] In normal siuations it's hac > bc. But imho thats because as a general rule the player flying the hac is usually fully t2 fitted or better and as higher sp in general. With equal skills and fittings it'd be a very tough fight and really depends on the exact ships\ranges\etc. BC's have the advangtage of more hardpoints and slots and tons more cpu\grid for nasty hac killers like 2x Med NOS or a ecm multi. -----
Rexy	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:22:00 - [14] given a bit of skill and decent enough fitting it's defenitly possible for a BC to thrash a hac. at least it worked in a cycloen vs deimos.
AaronP Omega Fleet Enterprises Omega Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:25:00 - [15] Ishtar 4tw! Tbh, ive found BC's pretty much gimped, ive taken them out in normal cruisers.
Lysunder The Vendetta Mercenary Company	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:29:00 - [16] Also the range bonus' that turret based HACS get helps a lot in HAC vs BC. For example : A prophecy loaded with t2 heavy pulses(3XHS II) + its drones + missile hard point isnt that far behind the zealot in DPS. But the zealot gets a 50% range bonus (saying that HAC skill is at 5 and the 2 pilots have similar skills). The zealot can zip round the proph at about 13k firing conflag and be in its optimul quite well. The proph however can only hit well with conflag upto say 10k. You force the proph to switch to a longer range ammo, thus decreasing its DPS. The same is true with Brutix vs Deimos. The deimos has the better range and the ability through its greater speed and agility to dictate the range of the fight in 9/10 cases. Result : Brutix either sticks with antimatter and doesnt hit very well, resulting in less DPS, or it switchs to longer range ammo, again resulting in less DPS.
Jerick Ludhowe Arcana Imperii Ltd.	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:58:00 - [17] I see that several of the poster above me have mentioned the Brutix as one of the best BCs to take on HACs. Haveing rather extensive experiance piloting the ship I will say that a smart HAC pilot should and usually will kill a smart BC pilot. The reasons are not tankability or damage output as a Brutix will probably come out on top in those two deperatments. Instead the reasons that HACs have the advantage are two fold, speed/agility, and longer range weapons. Take a look at the Deimos for example. A Brutix will wtf BBQ a Deimos if the fight takes place within 3-4km however most good Deimos pilots know this and use their superior speed and superior range on their weapons. The same can be said for the Zealot, Vaga, and Ishtar. Now people should also understand that combat is not always what you plan it to be. A BC could come out of warp and land right ontop of a HAC, if that happens and the hac becomes webbed at close ranges then the BC probably has the advantage. However as I previously stated HACs do have the means to destroy BCs with realative ease if they can dictate range. my .2 iskies
Brisi Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:21:00 - [18] Originally by: AaronP Tbh, ive found BC's pretty much gimped, ive taken them out in normal cruisers. And people often take out solo battleships in ceptors, does this mean that battleships are gimped? As with everything else, it comes down to setup and the skill of the pilot. A good BC pilot will take out a bad to decent HAC pilot, while a good HAC pilot will take out poor or decent BC pilots. A good BC pilot vs a good HAC pilot basically comes down to setup and situation. The reason why so many BC's dies to HAC's, is simply because there are a ****load of newbies and young players flying BC's, while HAC's are mostly for the more experienced players. I am Brisi, I am as One. Resistance is fertile.
Silver Fusion	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:29:00 - [19] i personally would put it down like this: setup experience Skill Points that imo would deam winner for this reason; 1)if you can fly a HAC your skills are probably matching that of the BC pilot already. 2)if your taking a HAC into a PvP situation your probs already battle hardened (or stupidly rich) 3) the one question that really counts.....whos is setup for killing what?????? if a BC takes 5 guns/launcher 2 NOS, and a beast of a tank its bye bye HAC....if the HAC is passive tanked, with lots of nice high dmg guns bye bye BC. In short fitting is everything
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Lysunder Also the range bonus' that turret based HACS get helps a lot in HAC vs BC. For example : A prophecy loaded with t2 heavy pulses(3XHS II) + its drones + missile hard point isnt that far behind the zealot in DPS. But the zealot gets a 50% range bonus (saying that HAC skill is at 5 and the 2 pilots have similar skills). The zealot can zip round the proph at about 13k firing conflag and be in its optimul quite well. The proph however can only hit well with conflag upto say 10k. You force the proph to switch to a longer range ammo, thus decreasing its DPS. The same is true with Brutix vs Deimos. The deimos has the better range and the ability through its greater speed and agility to dictate the range of the fight in 9/10 cases. Result : Brutix either sticks with antimatter and doesnt hit very well, resulting in less DPS, or it switchs to longer range ammo, again resulting in less DPS. Just because BCs have problems keeping in their best range I would rather use longrange guns on a BC. Beams outdamage Pulses on a proph when the target is more than 10 km away. Also, dps isn't everything. The BCs have tanking boni, the 25% bonus on the prophecy means that the zealot needs to do 33% more damage than the proph so both ships deal the ame dps to each other. Of cource, the HACs get resistance boni, but in this particular example it won't help the zealot much.

lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:50:00 - [21] Originally by: AaronP Ishtar 4tw! Tbh, ive found BC's pretty much gimped, ive taken them out in normal cruisers. Ive taken out a megathron w/ a tristan, does that make the thron gimped? Ive seen a pheonix die to an absolution (on Test), does that make the pheonix gimped? Its all a matter of experience, setup and skills. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Mitsurugii Amarr Industries of Temptation	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:51:00 - [22] Paper-scissors-stone....you never know exactly what your gonna get in EVE encounters until your opponent opens his hand...On Paper though you`d `think` the BC would take it.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:56:00 - [23] main reason a BC will loose more imo is its like the destroyer, most pilots flying one dont have alot of skills/experience and its making a great middle ground ship for them while they save up for BS. im sure if you take someone devoted to the BC and has lots of skills and experience the HAC is as good as dead. and the BC is fully insured even a tech 2 fitted BC is less of a loss then a tech 2 fitted HAC by far based on Lonetrek and Citadel prices.
Depko	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:03:00 - [24] I would bet on Ishtar HAC with 2x medium nosferatu II. it is easy to tank (kinetic +thermal in case of Brutix BC), Ishtar can atack from 60km range, keep energy in close range, choose damage(drone bay like in DOminix). damage is like on a Dominix with BS lvl5 skill. if the dealed damage from BC would be explosive and Ishtar armor tanked without explosive tank, he would die probably very fast. in missions against serp (kin+thermal) is Ishtar about 3-5x more tankable (tanked dps) than Brutix. Ishtar can tank e.g. 17 serp. cruisers indefinitely.
Lysunder The Vendetta Mercenary Company	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Lysunder Also the range bonus' that turret based HACS get helps a lot in HAC vs BC. For example : A prophecy loaded with t2 heavy pulses(3XHS II) + its drones + missile hard point isnt that far behind the zealot in DPS. But the zealot gets a 50% range bonus (saying that HAC skill is at 5 and the 2 pilots have similar skills). The zealot can zip round the proph at about 13k firing conflag and be in its optimul quite well. The proph however can only hit well with conflag upto say 10k. You force the proph to switch to a longer range ammo, thus decreasing its DPS. The same is true with Brutix vs Deimos. The deimos has the better range and the ability through its greater speed and agility to dictate the range of the fight in 9/10 cases. Result : Brutix either sticks with antimatter and doesnt hit very well, resulting in less DPS, or it switchs to longer range ammo, again resulting in less DPS. Just because BCs have problems keeping in their best range I would rather use longrange guns on a BC. Beams outdamage Pulses on a proph when the target is more than 10 km away. Also, dps isn't everything. The BCs have tanking boni, the 25% bonus on the prophecy means that the zealot needs to do 33% more damage than the proph so both ships deal the ame dps to each other. Of cource, the HACs get resistance boni, but in this particular example it won't help the zealot much. True, but please understand that I made the comparision of the two ships with the idea that they were using the same guns to make a point of the range bonus being so usefull on HACS. Your correct that beams start to out damage pulses after 10k on the proph, as they should do, but in this perticular fight the bad close range tracking on the beams would be the death of the proph. They wont hit a cruiser hard, and a small cruiser at that, at 12/13k with a transversal of just under 700m/s. My comparision didnt involve tanking, and as other posters have said, this fight as well as fights between other HACs/BCs will depend on circumstance/fitting, as every fight does.
xEntriq	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:33:00 - [26] If the BC pilot has either NOS or ECM you're in trouble. The most common Brutix setup has always 2 medium NOS and potentially ECM as well. Personally, I'd stay away from a Brutix. But if you're quick and know where the turret hardpoints are on a Brutix then look at them and see if all the hardpoints are used. The Cyclone has only 5 hardpoints and 3 missile bays. So they would probably be using NOS as well, and their 5 mediums you can assume he has ECM. I'm not as scared of Ferox's and Prophecy's in my Deimos as the other two BC's, so be careful how you choose your fights. If you're in an Ishtar with great drone skills then you can probably take on anything solo. Just remember to choose your fights carefully.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:03:00 - [27] Its gonna come down ti pilot skill and sp, however if u put command ship vs a HAC then say goodbye to ur HAC...Commands have tanks comparable to battleships if u know what ur doing...
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.04 19:36:00 - [28] While player skill and fittings are, as always, the number 1 determing factor, also keep in mind that it depends largely on WHICH BC and HAC it is. A Munnin is likely to die pretty horribly to a Cyclone (particularly if the Cyclone has Havocs and Fusion ammo), but an Eagle should crush a Railox easily, and should be able to tank a Brutix without too much trouble, at least long enough to make the kill. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! byahahahahaha!11 Sig Pwnt - Immy
Bluestealth Minmatar Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.09.04 19:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari While player skill and fittings are, as always, the number 1 determing factor, also keep in mind that it depends largely on WHICH BC and HAC it is. A Munnin is likely to die pretty horribly to a Cyclone (particularly if the Cyclone has Havocs and Fusion ammo), but an Eagle should crush a Railox easily, and should be able to tank a Brutix without too much trouble, at least long enough to make the kill. IMHO Cyclone sucks far too much for this to be true, now tech2 brutix is dangerous to muninn, won my last fight against a brutix but only because he had tech1 weapons while haveing a tech2 tank, he was not a newb pilot either :), however had he had the same skills into BCs I have I surely would have been dead. Muninn outputs almost half the damage of a tempest(at least with my skills at this point) while having a decent tank, its a pretty scary beast, cyclone doesnt put out that much damage due to no projectile damage bonus and split weapon system. ECM Cyclone could make things intresting but its doubtful.
Mary Rose	Posted - 2006.09.04 19:54:00 - [30] Originally by: Rehmes Its gonna come down ti pilot skill and sp, however if u put command ship vs a HAC then say goodbye to ur HAC...Commands have tanks comparable to battleships if u know what ur doing... quoted for being completely irrelevant Originally by: Leverton I have to say, I really don't care if you don't like EVE.

Andreask14 Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.04 20:04:00 - [31] Edited by: Andreask14 on 04/09/2006 20:04:04 It all depends on wether one of both of them have ECM. edit: \0/ new page !!!
R'adeh Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 20:14:00 - [32] Originally by: Laythun Hell i'd even take a sac against a BC.. The Sac is the most underrated HAC. Setup correctly it can give Ishtars a hard time __________________________________________________ My views are my own and I don't represent my corp. Please show mercy Drakma!
Bluestealth Minmatar Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.09.04 20:21:00 - [33] Originally by: R'adeh Originally by: Laythun Hell i'd even take a sac against a BC.. The Sac is the most underrated HAC. Setup correctly it can give Ishtars a hard time Its damage sucks but it makes up for it in tank(omg)... nos + ecm = death for sac though.
Patch Esquire	Posted - 2006.09.04 23:44:00 - [34] Command ships can spew out the damage to cruiser sized ships, so a HAC would have a real tough time of it. Thats not to discount a good HAC pilot though, theres not much in it. Mind you, considering that a BC costs 20 odd million, and a HAC costs 200 million, I know which one I'd rather be flying in that encounter
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 23:53:00 - [35] dont forget for 7.3 million that BC is fully insured. so your only real loss is the fittings as the frame is insured.
Bluestealth Minmatar Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.09.05 00:56:00 - [36] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker dont forget for 7.3 million that BC is fully insured. so your only real loss is the fittings as the frame is insured. Thus it takes a balsy HAC pilot, there are a lot of those. The tech1 vs tech2 cost argument is only valid because supply is far too low atm. I would rather have a 30-100 mil tech2 setup on a tech2 ship then a tech1 ship anyways. Insurance is nothing compared to the cost of some setups. Fighting as if your ship is to be thrown away is like playing CS in space, and last game I played like that was Allegiance.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.05 02:36:00 - [37] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: wierchas noobhunter When a HAC meets a BC ... hhmm tbh hac gona die most of time if bc is well setuped with expierenced pilot /me hugs his deimos /me Warms up his brutix Soon to be astarte \/ Like you need an Astarte for ganking mission runners. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy
Linavin Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.05 02:36:00 - [38] A skilled BC pilot will stand a very good chance at killing an equally skilled HAC pilot. The reason most BCs don't stand a chance is because they're primarily flown by >4 month old players without the necessary skills and expirience to use them effectivley. I have found that if you can fly HACs with tech II weapons and good setups then you can fly a comprable BC with a comprable setup. --- Originally by: Boris A I found the rock music button!
Foulis Minmatar Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.05 03:28:00 - [39] If I were just to look at the ships, without pilots, I would go for the BC. ---- Cake > Pie - Imaran Cathath > Imaran - Cathath Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
Shiraz Merlot Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.09.05 04:18:00 - [40] The HAC pilot wins because he is having more fun out of the box. <-- addicted to Tech II ships

Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.05 04:46:00 - [41] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: wierchas noobhunter When a HAC meets a BC ... hhmm tbh hac gona die most of time if bc is well setuped with expierenced pilot /me hugs his deimos /me Warms up his brutix Soon to be astarte \/ Like you need an Astarte for ganking mission runners. Wait, you don't get style points when you gank people?!?! --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.05 07:14:00 - [42] It depends entirely on how the BC and HACS are setup. A nossing brutix with dual webb and 3 nos will own any zealot or deimos.
Tzesaeia	Posted - 2006.09.05 07:50:00 - [43] Just because a BC is cheaper and insured i wouldn't choose it! If u loose always against hacs and u have to replace the very expensive modules u fitted for fighting a T2 ship prolly faction stuff or T2 it will come expensive to loose also in a BC. But i would also say it depends on situation if it is a duel started from lets say 100km range i would go for the hacs that have range boni simply because they r faster and can keep out of range. U wanna know what ship to train for? Train for the one u like to fly don't care what u can beat with it u will find an enemy u can beat maybe in a BC that wont be Hacs and in the end if u have BC 5 u will see the command ship wink and they can kill some stuff...oh and by the way if u ever go for the command ship u will have to train for hacs and Bc so u can test out what u like more. For a beginner a Bc is the better choice i guess. So u could go for Bc5 first and when u have real good skills u could start out with Hacs.
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.05 11:19:00 - [44] Offtopic but.. when I saw the title "When a HAC meets a BC..." the first thing that popped into my head was: "...that's how baby Command Ships are made!" Seriously though, as everyone else here has said, its all in the fittings, the type of HAC, the type of BC. I'd give the HAC in general the best chances because they typically have more firepower and a tank comperable to most BCs. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.05 11:31:00 - [45] BCs are pretty ebil in PvP, with an appropriate PvP setup. So I wouldn't be surprised to see the BC win. CommandShips are frankly ebil too. They soak up a silly amount of damager before they go pop, and combined with a logistics cruiser they are practically unstoppable. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
ChalSto The Galactic Empire Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.05 11:41:00 - [46] One day, my faction-fittet deimos owned badly a brutix+ ecm-caracal (waiting for lock, tanking his very sad dmg and finaly omgwtfbbq them both ater having lock back (in space, noone hear u screaming )). One day later I nearly lost it to a single caracal, becouse his neutralizer-drones BBQ¦ed my cap and he jammed me. I only was lucky, becouse he though, that i still had cap left and so he warped out (phew). Proof for "it all dempends on setup+skills". (and sometimes ecm. CCP....nerf ecm plz!) Me? I¦m just another guy in Local......but better u pay attention.....


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