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Should Training Time be Decreased?

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Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:51:00 - [1] One of my gripes with EVE is that there are so many timesink skills that are required in order to be effective at anything with long-term interest: - to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari). - Carriers and Dreads also take about a year to train for and then you'll still suck at everything else - Industry/Mining: I haven't calculated the times here, since I don't think that any of these are of long-term interest on their own, at least not for a significant number of players. For most of the active players, these timesink skills will be demotivating at some point when they realize that e.g. they need another 5-6 months to train for a Carrier even though they could afford one now and put it to good use already, while there are no intermediate steps that give you a significant improvement (except drone skills perhaps, if you use them a lot). What do you think, should training be faster? Answers from people with 30m+ SP aren't interesting, they're biased ;-). "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:53:00 - [2] No. Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Admai Sket	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:53:00 - [3] 'x16' skills just sound rediculous to me - level 5 on one of those must be a few MONTHS, surely?
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:54:00 - [4] The training is long to make sure that young chars are not capable of flying them cuz they loose them too fast. It doesnt take that long if you specialize in your race. Ship lovers click here
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:54:00 - [5] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 04/09/2006 13:54:10 I've been a week away from training battleships for weeks, was never inclined to finish it, still won't for a while, though I could afford a BS now. All in its own good time or whatever. Don't see why that view would change later on. ----------
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:54:00 - [6] Training times are fine as they are. And the views of people who have lots of SPs are probably less biased than those without, as they've actually experienced what it's like. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:55:00 - [7] Investment of time into eve means you will be rewarded. Lose some t1/named bs's during that year before you go into your full one year training time t2 gear bird :-)
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Admai Sket 'x16' skills just sound rediculous to me - level 5 on one of those must be a few MONTHS, surely? Around two months to go from 4 to 5 for most characters, I'd say. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
RedLion Caldari Gloria Victis	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:57:00 - [9] Well, buy implants, get learning skills No, but I don't think it's fair to nerf the training time of skills. But getting some sort of rewards from agent, where you could spend loyalty points on skill points. For example buy 50k skill points for 15k loyalty points. Or it could come as an reward for the important missions. CCP shouldn't, and is probably not even concidering, offering skill points for ISK. Don't know about EVE, but I have played WoW. And the chinese is making good money because people buy so much gold to get personal gains. If there should be some economy involved, the training has to be limited.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:58:00 - [10] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Admai Sket 'x16' skills just sound rediculous to me - level 5 on one of those must be a few MONTHS, surely? Around two months to go from 4 to 5 for most characters, I'd say. You mean it takes a couple of months to get titan to 5? OH HELL NO! WE'LL NEVER MANAGE! Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Phantom Speedrunner	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:59:00 - [11] it would be good to see the basic skills over time depreciate in value. As this game gets older the difference between the new and old players will probably become a disincetive to play. Maybe if 10 core skills got their train times halved (0.5 multiplier) so that new players catch up a little faster. Next year maybe reduce another 10 skills and so on. It would benefit vets/pros (anyone who maybe hadnt focused on a branch eg industry ) EVE never seems to have any sort of bonuses you see in other games like EQ2 etc. How about promotional weeks with double speed training (for all players). Would it hurt them to do this once or twice a year ? Damm CCP you must celebrate something , throw us a bone here.
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:59:00 - [12] Edited by: Cattraknoff on 04/09/2006 13:59:19 Lets not give agent *****s even more advantages, please. edit: (directed at redlion)
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:01:00 - [13] Originally by: RedLion Well, buy implants, get learning skills No, but I don't think it's fair to nerf the training time of skills. But getting some sort of rewards from agent, where you could spend loyalty points on skill points. For example buy 50k skill points for 15k loyalty points. Or it could come as an reward for the important missions. CCP shouldn't, and is probably not even concidering, offering skill points for ISK. Don't know about EVE, but I have played WoW. And the chinese is making good money because people buy so much gold to get personal gains. If there should be some economy involved, the training has to be limited. Interesting idea. As for the SP for ISK - this is already happening, as you can see, many people are offering or buying high SP characters for ISK just because they can't be bothered to wait so many months for skills they need. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Phantom Speedrunner it would be good to see the basic skills over time depreciate in value. As this game gets older the difference between the new and old players will probably become a disincetive to play. Maybe if 10 core skills got their train times halved (0.5 multiplier) so that new players catch up a little faster. Next year maybe reduce another 10 skills and so on. It would benefit vets/pros (anyone who maybe hadnt focused on a branch eg industry ) EVE never seems to have any sort of bonuses you see in other games like EQ2 etc. How about promotional weeks with double speed training (for all players). Would it hurt them to do this once or twice a year ? Damm CCP you must celebrate something , throw us a bone here. specialization is the key, after a few months of training in your desired ship, you can do it as well as any of us can (in 95% of cases, dont expect a titan that early) Older players are just able to fly more things, not that we can fly everything better, if you specialize in what you enjoy most, you should be able to beat us in that ship (unless you're inept or something)
RedLion Caldari Gloria Victis	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:03:00 - [15] Originally by: Cattraknoff Edited by: Cattraknoff on 04/09/2006 13:59:19 Lets not give agent *****s even more advantages, please. edit: (directed at redlion) O.O, what you mean? It's up to people how they want to play the game. So please don't call people who are trying to play the game in a not abusive way, names. Thanks
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:04:00 - [16] Originally by: Lazuran - to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari). No you don't. I've been pvping for nearly 3 years solid and I have only ever flown frigs. The few times I have flown battleships they have been with tech 1 guns and I've been fine. Brains > skill points. Originally by: Lazuran - Carriers and Dreads also take about a year to train for and then you'll still suck at everything else Welcome to specialisation. Also the skill training that goes into capital ships is very similar to so you won't "suck at everything else". Originally by: Lazuran - Industry/Mining: I haven't calculated the times here, since I don't think that any of these are of long-term interest on their own, at least not for a significant number of players. Training to be decent at industrial stuff takes no time at all. Training to be "uber" at industrial stuff will take longer, again, welcome to specialisation. Originally by: Lazuran For most of the active players, these timesink skills will be demotivating at some point when they realize that e.g. they need another 5-6 months to train for a Carrier even though they could afford one now and put it to good use already, while there are no intermediate steps that give you a significant improvement (except drone skills perhaps, if you use them a lot). Thanks to eve bigger is not better so don't assume everyone wants to fly a capital ship. In any case as they stand capital ships are very role specific in combat where as the more regular ships are used constantly and you can be effective in one specific class of ships in a very short time. Originally by: Lazuran What do you think, should training be faster? Answers from people with 30m+ SP aren't interesting, they're biased ;-). Answers from people with less than 30mil sp aren't interesting, they're biased as well then. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Cattraknoff if you specialize in what you enjoy most, you should be able to beat us in that ship (unless you're inept or something) First of all, it takes ages to even try enough things to find out what you like most (e.g. Carrier ...). While I agree that someone can have a single favourite ship for PVP that he uses most of the time, it's just too monotonous to fly only that and never anything else. It gets boring and it's not satisfying and it also limits the flexibility of corps when they need to use particular fleet setups. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
RedLion Caldari Gloria Victis	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:04:00 - [18] Originally by: Lazuran Interesting idea. As for the SP for ISK - this is already happening, as you can see, many people are offering or buying high SP characters for ISK just because they can't be bothered to wait so many months for skills they need. yeah sorry, didn't think of it. Then maybe iskbuying of skills isn't a such bad idea.
RedLion Caldari Gloria Victis	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:09:00 - [19] Another idea would be to buy SP from CCP for real cash :)
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Wild Rho Welcome to specialisation. Also the skill training that goes into capital ships is very similar to so you won't "suck at everything else". I don't have a problem with specialization, but all those interdependent skills force you to specialize in things you don't even want to. For example, for T2 large projectiles, you need small/medium specialization as well, even if you never use it. For Interdictors, you need Interceptors (only L4 fortunately, a rare exception). As for carriers, if you look at a minimal set of timesink skills to use one including basic modules (that's something like 230 days without implants), then you will still have no EW skills whatsoever, no T2 ship skills, no gunnery worth mentioning etc. - that is what I mean by "sucking at everything else". "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:12:00 - [21] Originally by: Phantom Speedrunner it would be good to see the basic skills over time depreciate in value. As this game gets older the difference between the new and old players will probably become a disincetive to play. Maybe if 10 core skills got their train times halved (0.5 multiplier) so that new players catch up a little faster. Next year maybe reduce another 10 skills and so on. It would benefit vets/pros (anyone who maybe hadnt focused on a branch eg industry ) EVE never seems to have any sort of bonuses you see in other games like EQ2 etc. How about promotional weeks with double speed training (for all players). Would it hurt them to do this once or twice a year ? Damm CCP you must celebrate something , throw us a bone here. Ummm how about no? Games like EQ2 require you to have more than one character due to class choices made at character creation...Eve does not, The only thing that it requires is time to pass (and in game isk). Hell you can even gain SPs when your account is inactive. I don't see the need for 2 month boosts to certian skills and it would increase the cookie cutter skill chasing/ship fittings. Plus their are ways in game to increase your SP rate already that you can chose to use or not at your own rate. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:14:00 - [22] I think its pretty good as it is... its good that players flying capital ships have several years experience of the game. Yes, the training is boring, but only if you dont play the game while you wait for the training. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Cmdr Sy EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:15:00 - [23] Originally by: Lazuran What do you think, should training be faster? Answers from people with 30m+ SP aren't interesting, they're biased. ;-) Biased how? We did the grind and came out on the other side. I don't see how people who have yet to experience the benefits, can perform an objective assessment. Let's clear up a few misconceptions... 1) You do NOT need a T2-fitted BS to be an effective PVPer. It's all attitude. I am not naming names, but I have fought alongside people who got as many kills in a T2-fitted T1 cruiser, as people who flew a T2-fitted BS. It's all about attitude - theirs was often better. Over 30m SP here, flew in a few PVP corps and alliances, and I can't fly a T2-fitted BS. I would rather have an experienced Thorax pilot in my gang, than a T2-fitted BS pilot who is "learning the ropes". For one thing, there is less whining afterwards. 2) Capital ships go with an earned rank and a particular job description. It is never going to be an issue for most people who play EVE. Just because it's in the game, doesn't mean you need to use it. Doesn't mean you are missing out on a must-feel experience. Forget about them. 3) Mining V, Astrogeology IV, Caldari Cruiser IV, and 3m to buy, fit and insure an Osprey. As investments in the industry profession go, this one is rock bottom cheapest. Training does not need to be faster, what needs to change is newcomers' impression that to be useful, they need to be flying the most expensive and hard to use kit. Truth is, the first PVP corp that hires them is going to put them into a frig or cruiser with cheap fitting. Employing people with attitudes to the contrary only leads to unnecessary losses.
St Dragon Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Lazuran One of my gripes with EVE is that there are so many timesink skills that are required in order to be effective at anything with long-term interest: - to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari). Actually it takes just as long if you want to be good with caldari as you need to train the sub skills in missiles and shield operation. - Carriers and Dreads also take about a year to train for and then you'll still suck at everything else So this is a good thing you know capital ships are the elites ship. - Industry/Mining: I haven't calculated the times here, since I don't think that any of these are of long-term interest on their own, at least not for a significant number of players. Actually industry and mining is very popular. What do you think, should training be faster? Answers from people with 30m+ SP aren't interesting, they're biased ;-). Actually people with that many sp are the most unbiased as they have already been there already. i have 10 mil sp btw. ----------------------------------------------- "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Benco97 Gallente Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:15:00 - [25] It doesn't need changing, it's fine as it is Head of the Fedo Appreciation Group (F.A.G) and Registered Fedo breeder
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:16:00 - [26] Originally by: RedLion Originally by: Cattraknoff Edited by: Cattraknoff on 04/09/2006 13:59:19 Lets not give agent *****s even more advantages, please. edit: (directed at redlion) O.O, what you mean? It's up to people how they want to play the game. So please don't call people who are trying to play the game in a not abusive way, names. Thanks Meh, isn't really considered abusive by many people.... Anyway, giving SPs as rewards is too big of an advantage. If they do that, I Should get SPs for npcing, mining, or complex whoring, hell, why not for every pod I pop?
Laythun Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:19:00 - [27] Originally by: RedLion Well, buy implants, get learning skills No, but I don't think it's fair to nerf the training time of skills. But getting some sort of rewards from agent, where you could spend loyalty points on skill points. For example buy 50k skill points for 15k loyalty points. Or it could come as an reward for the important missions. CCP shouldn't, and is probably not even concidering, offering skill points for ISK. Don't know about EVE, but I have played WoW. And the chinese is making good money because people buy so much gold to get personal gains. If there should be some economy involved, the training has to be limited. Woah there little buddy. I nominate this comment for worst most stupid idea ever. Grinding level 4's for skillpoints...?? *See You In Space Cowboy*
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:20:00 - [28] Originally by: Hellspawn01 The training is long to make sure that young chars are not capable of flying them cuz they loose them too fast. It doesnt take that long if you specialize in your race. SP have nothing to do with experience, since training is independent of playing time. Also, many people buy high SP characters these days, so if what you wrote was ever a concern or reason behind long training times, it doesn't work. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
RedLion Caldari Gloria Victis	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:26:00 - [29] Originally by: Cattraknoff blahblah.... why not for every pod I pop? I never said you couldn't. Are you really this stupid, or are you just trolling these forums? Answer: Because your rewards should come from something. Maybe rats or players could drop some insignias that could be turned in to gain SP?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:27:00 - [30] Originally by: Phantom Speedrunner it would be good to see the basic skills over time depreciate in value. As this game gets older the difference between the new and old players will probably become a disincetive to play. Maybe if 10 core skills got their train times halved (0.5 multiplier) so that new players catch up a little faster. Next year maybe reduce another 10 skills and so on. It would benefit vets/pros (anyone who maybe hadnt focused on a branch eg industry ) EVE never seems to have any sort of bonuses you see in other games like EQ2 etc. How about promotional weeks with double speed training (for all players). Would it hurt them to do this once or twice a year ? Damm CCP you must celebrate something , throw us a bone here. Old players already improve their skills at a slower rate. I've only gained two skill levels in the last two months. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:35:00 - [31] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: Lazuran What do you think, should training be faster? Answers from people with 30m+ SP aren't interesting, they're biased. ;-) Biased how? We did the grind and came out on the other side. I don't see how people who have yet to experience the benefits, can perform an objective assessment. Biased because you have almost nothing to gain from this proposal, but your SP will be worth less time than you put into it. Quote: 1) You do NOT need a T2-fitted BS to be an effective PVPer. It's all attitude. Yes you do and it's not vanity that most PVPers go for it, many FC even require it, with a few exceptions (Dominix for example). Quote: 2) Capital ships go with an earned rank and a particular job description. It is never going to be an issue for most people who play EVE. Just because it's in the game, doesn't mean you need to use it. Doesn't mean you are missing out on a must-feel experience. Forget about them. Wrong, carriers are even effective solo ships for mission runners and ships for the industrial backbone of a corp. If it's in the game, it should be accessible in a reasonable way to people who want to use it or they will look for unreasonable ways (e.g. buying high SP characters). Games are about experiencing things and having fun. If you can't experience a game to its full extent, you won't enjoy it fully. Unless of course you're the kind of guy who feels like he doesn't deserve it. Quote: 3) Mining V, Astrogeology IV, Caldari Cruiser IV, and 3m to buy, fit and insure an Osprey. As investments in the industry profession go, this one is rock bottom cheapest. You're the pro. ;-) I'm sure this is a miner's dream ship, the perfectly satisfying experience for someone who likes to look at big roids all day. Quote: Training does not need to be faster, what needs to change is newcomers' impression that to be useful, they need to be flying the most expensive and hard to use kit. Truth is, the first PVP corp that hires them is going to put them into a frig or cruiser with cheap fitting. Employing people with attitudes to the contrary only leads to unnecessary losses. I'm not talking about such alleged misconceptions. The issue here is that once you have the experience and your preferences for further training, for many players, there will come a point where progress (skill-wise) seems to be disappointingly slow even though there is a lot left to explore and there's nothing they can do about it. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Lazuran I don't have a problem with specialization, but all those interdependent skills force you to specialize in things you don't even want to. For example, for T2 large projectiles, you need small/medium specialization as well, even if you never use it. For Interdictors, you need Interceptors (only L4 fortunately, a rare exception). In that I agree with you. Back when the different sizes of t2 guns came in there were a number of threads with people making the same case. I still don't agree with or understand why the training for large t2 guns and similar have such pre-requisits. However increasing training time will not "fix" the issue there, at best it will blanket it over while screwing up everything else. Originally by: Lazuran As for carriers, if you look at a minimal set of timesink skills to use one including basic modules (that's something like 230 days without implants), then you will still have no EW skills whatsoever, no T2 ship skills, no gunnery worth mentioning etc. - that is what I mean by "sucking at everything else". Well you are talking about going from a new player aiming straight for a capital ship and ignoring everything in between so the example is a little skewed and ultimatly that's a fault with the players approach to training than a flaw with Eve's training times. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:36:00 - [33] Originally by: RedLion Originally by: Cattraknoff blahblah.... why not for every pod I pop? I never said you couldn't. Are you really this stupid, or are you just trolling these forums? Answer: Because your rewards should come from something. Maybe rats or players could drop some insignias that could be turned in to gain SP? Well, I didn't really want those things, honestly we don't need the entire game focused around grinding, too many games are like that....Lets not make this a game where only 12 years olds with no lives outside of the game can compete. We all know the world has enough MMO's like that.
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:38:00 - [34] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: RedLion Well, buy implants, get learning skills No, but I don't think it's fair to nerf the training time of skills. But getting some sort of rewards from agent, where you could spend loyalty points on skill points. For example buy 50k skill points for 15k loyalty points. Or it could come as an reward for the important missions. CCP shouldn't, and is probably not even concidering, offering skill points for ISK. Don't know about EVE, but I have played WoW. And the chinese is making good money because people buy so much gold to get personal gains. If there should be some economy involved, the training has to be limited. Interesting idea. As for the SP for ISK - this is already happening, as you can see, many people are offering or buying high SP characters for ISK just because they can't be bothered to wait so many months for skills they need. AGREED, if they introduced a "Neural interface acceleration trainer", that worked only once per level you are training and was then discarded, cost a good amount, and it cut the level of training in half, many would take advantage of it and thus create yet another isk sink for the game. now a 'good amount' is subjective, but remember it only works one time...thus you have to buy another to get the next level trained faster. "5 mil" X "levels needed" X "skill books required" = players either make the isk needed to take advantage or they are not going to advance as fast as others but will have more isk to spend on other things... works like an implant as far as clones advances training for only one level then ejects causes noobs to choose training speed vs saving up isk for advanced ships, make an advanced accelerater skill for them...cost more, has same effect...and only the vets would need it, so they should be able to afford it, cost 10 mil each level... just a thought to expand on the original. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:39:00 - [35] Originally by: Wild Rho Well you are talking about going from a new player aiming straight for a capital ship and ignoring everything in between so the example is a little skewed and ultimatly that's a fault with the players approach to training than a flaw with Eve's training times. Right, noone will go straight to a capital ship (unless he's a specially trained alt on a second account, also not uncommon these days), which means that they don't only take ~230 days to reach, but much longer (more like 18 months), because people will be training many other things left and right. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:41:00 - [36] Originally by: DukDodgerz AGREED, if they introduced a "Neural interface acceleration trainer", that worked only once per level you are training and was then discarded, cost a good amount, and it cut the level of training in half, many would take advantage of it and thus create yet another isk sink for the game. Good for CCP, very bad for the game ... All I'd be asking instead would be to remove a few L5 skill prerequisites for some of the better parts of the game. L4 is enough for frigates=>cruiser, why not for BS/Advances Spaceship Command=>Carrier? "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:42:00 - [37] Originally by: Cattraknoff Originally by: RedLion Originally by: Cattraknoff blahblah.... why not for every pod I pop? I never said you couldn't. Are you really this stupid, or are you just trolling these forums? Answer: Because your rewards should come from something. Maybe rats or players could drop some insignias that could be turned in to gain SP? Well, I didn't really want those things, honestly we don't need the entire game focused around grinding, too many games are like that....Lets not make this a game where only 12 years olds with no lives outside of the game can compete. We all know the world has enough MMO's like that. you mean all the exploit users grief players and gankers are not already 12 year olds without a life already? if they are the example of adults playing the game then there are deeper issues to be looked at... FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:48:00 - [38] Originally by: Lazuran Right, noone will go straight to a capital ship (unless he's a specially trained alt on a second account, also not uncommon these days), which means that they don't only take ~230 days to reach, but much longer (more like 18 months), because people will be training many other things left and right. Correct, becuase how is this new player going to afford the ship, skills and mods when he is training directly for a capital ship? To be honest it seems like you've decided a new player should be able to go from a rookie ship into a capital ship in a short time without having to take all the necessary steps in between without really thinking about it. It's a case of you wanting the way the game works changed to suit your style of play. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:50:00 - [39] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 04/09/2006 14:51:58 Originally by: Lazuran One of my gripes with EVE is that there are so many timesink skills that are required in order to be effective at anything with long-term interest: - to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari). You dont know how wrong you are. You dont need a BS at all to be decent in PvP. So please stop posting suggestions out of ignorance. Training times are fine, otherwise we'd all quit after 6 months cause we could fly everything. Anyway are you an alt, cause if not I dont get where you take the experience from knowing you'd need a Tech II Fitted BS for pvp. I'll take you on every time in your tech II BS in another ship.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:51:00 - [40] Originally by: DukDodgerz you mean all the exploit users grief players and gankers are not already 12 year olds without a life already? if they are the example of adults playing the game then there are deeper issues to be looked at... I can't speak for exploiters (that's your area of expertise, at least with freighter logoffs, right?), but I have pirated a lot with a lot of different people, and I am usually the only one on a TS or vent server who is not yet out of school (I'm about to start the final year of school in Britain, the upper sixth). I think there are deeper issues, and here are examples: Your inability to accept a gameplay other than your own to be anything but the product of diseased minds. Your inability to accept that actions in game are not a reflection on real life Your fear of associating your beliefs with your main, and the requisite insecurity Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:56:00 - [41] Originally by: Wild Rho Correct, becuase how is this new player going to afford the ship, skills and mods when he is training directly for a capital ship? The same way he is going to afford it after 18 months: by playing more or finding better ways to earn isk. Quote: To be honest it seems like you've decided a new player should be able to go from a rookie ship into a capital ship in a short time without having to take all the necessary steps in between without really thinking about it. It's a case of you wanting the way the game works changed to suit your style of play. What are the necessary steps in between in your opinion? How is the training time beneficial? He could just go AFK and train for months, how will he be a better player then? As for my style of play: I simply play a lot and therefore don't see myself making a lot of progress. I can afford capital ships and am an experienced player (since I play far too much), but the prospect of training 4-5 months just to be able to use a carrier (after having played for 3 years on and off) is not very appealing, it makes me want to stop playing for a few months (again). I'm not sure that this is what the Devs had in mind when they set the prerequisites. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:59:00 - [42] He is going to buy the ship, undock and do something stupid to lose it, as he is unexperienced. The training-time to get ships is there for people to gain experience. Being able to fly a tech II fitted BS does NOT make you a good pvper. Thats why you recognize an ebay from 20 systems away.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:59:00 - [43] does everyone and their mum need a carrier or a dreadnought? kindly make sense.
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:00:00 - [44] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 04/09/2006 14:51:58 Originally by: Lazuran One of my gripes with EVE is that there are so many timesink skills that are required in order to be effective at anything with long-term interest: - to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari). You dont know how wrong you are. You dont need a BS at all to be decent in PvP. So please stop posting suggestions out of ignorance. Ignorance is also not reading properly: b]to be an all-round effective PVPer,[/b] is what I wrote. Quote: Training times are fine, otherwise we'd all quit after 6 months cause we could fly everything. Perhaps you would leave, I would stay and fly all these ships (and would rather leave as it is now because it gets boring to wait for all those skills). Quote: Anyway are you an alt, cause if not I dont get where you take the experience from knowing you'd need a Tech II Fitted BS for pvp. What does that have to do with anything? I have 3 chars like most people, this is my oldest one (look at my corp history when I'm on, yes, I've been in a major alliance with this one), my second oldest is in RISE and I use him most of the time. Quote: I'll take you on every time in your tech II BS in another ship. Go smack somewhere else, you immature ***. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0."* -- Slaaght Bana
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:01:00 - [45] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 04/09/2006 15:00:56 Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo does everyone and their mum need a carrier or a dreadnought? kindly make sense. Mums don't need carriers and dreadnoughts - they need motherships instead Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:02:00 - [46] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 04/09/2006 15:03:51 I love those people calling everyone that arguments against their point a smacker...very matture of you. And I read properly, an allrounder doesnt need a tech II BS. PS: Your char is from 7th 2006, hence I think its a valid question what qualifies you to know if a tech II BS is needed or not. If you have had FCs that ask for that as a req, they dont know the full potential of tech I fittings.
Cmdr Sy EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:03:00 - [47] Originally by: Lazuran snip There is more to PVP than flying T2 fitted BS. No-one starts there. Many excellent PVPers choose not to go there. If a newish player genuinely sees himself doing 1v1, small group skirmish or fleet in BS, then there is no point in training the skills faster than acquiring the experience necessary to use them properly. If someone really wants to fly in an elite corp with T2 BS as an entry requirement, then they must accept the fact that such gratification will not be instantly granted. Nor even within weeks. To fully enjoy EVE, everyone must have piloted a capital ship, because it is there to be piloted? Meh. Someone may enjoy doing L4s in a carrier more than in a BS or Command Ship, someone may enjoy jumping their capital ship out of 0.0 with a cargo hold full of goodies more than taking the longer journey in a blockade runner. That does not mean that everyone is entitled to one, quickly, so that they may sample the experience. Yes, the higher-end skills take longer to train. You really want cloaking devices to train as quickly as electronics, and so on, so everyone gets to play with everything? No thanks. The thing which makes most other MMOs so game-breakingly absurd is that everyone gets to be The One, everyone gets to yank the Sword of Excalibur out of a rock (and then never lose it). This game is rough, in that you can't have everything, and the ever-expanding skill tree guarantees you never will. A world of infinite possibility, where you choose a path and walk it. I think you will find most people here prefer EVE on masochist mode, precisely because their last one didn't have it.
Waio Valerius	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:03:00 - [48] I think training time should be decreased. Make the players feel they are getting somewhere, and are not stuck. Most people never play an MMORPG for more than a year, and many quit before that long. Would be good to have a 1 year old character and still feel you are getting somewhere, and not having to wait months for a teeny weeny improvement to your skills. That may be true, Sir. But I have a hammer
Lucre STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:04:00 - [49] Originally by: Lazuran - Industry/Mining: I haven't calculated the times here, since I don't think that any of these are of long-term interest on their own, at least not for a significant number of players. Absolutely. No significant number of long-term industrialists or miners in Eve, are there? ROFL
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:04:00 - [50] Originally by: Chewan Mesa He is going to buy the ship, undock and do something stupid to lose it, as he is unexperienced. The training-time to get ships is there for people to gain experience. Being able to fly a tech II fitted BS does NOT make you a good pvper. You manage to contradict yourself in 3 lines. Training-time for skills has nothing to do with experience, as you can see from those "ebayers". So how is the skill requirement helping at all in gaining the necessary experience? You can play 1000 hours in 3 months or in 3 years, you will have the same experience but a huge difference in skill points. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
RedLion Caldari Gloria Victis	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:08:00 - [51] Originally by: Cattraknoff Well, I didn't really want those things, honestly we don't need the entire game focused around grinding, too many games are like that....Lets not make this a game where only 12 years olds with no lives outside of the game can compete. We all know the world has enough MMO's like that. Well, it don't have to become hard core grind, if they had limited the gains. For example 500k SP each month or so. It's just that some of us "new" ones really want to progress.
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:09:00 - [52] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: DukDodgerz you mean all the exploit users grief players and gankers are not already 12 year olds without a life already? if they are the example of adults playing the game then there are deeper issues to be looked at... I can't speak for exploiters (that's your area of expertise, at least with freighter logoffs, right?), but I have pirated a lot with a lot of different people, and I am usually the only one on a TS or vent server who is not yet out of school (I'm about to start the final year of school in Britain, the upper sixth). I think there are deeper issues, and here are examples: Your inability to accept a gameplay other than your own to be anything but the product of diseased minds. Your inability to accept that actions in game are not a reflection on real life Your fear of associating your beliefs with your main, and the requisite insecurity well well well you can't win with lies there little kid I can't fly frieghters (never even wanted one), so you assumed a lot, then lie or make up the rest to assert your opinion as the right one, and insult me...yaaaa right. When you grow up, let us know. PS:your assumbtions are sooooo off base, they are obvious trolling. Hopefuly part of your 6th grade education will teach you something, like how to notice sarcasm .... FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:09:00 - [53] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 04/09/2006 15:10:25 Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Chewan Mesa He is going to buy the ship, undock and do something stupid to lose it, as he is unexperienced. The training-time to get ships is there for people to gain experience. Being able to fly a tech II fitted BS does NOT make you a good pvper. You manage to contradict yourself in 3 lines. Training-time for skills has nothing to do with experience, as you can see from those "ebayers". So how is the skill requirement helping at all in gaining the necessary experience? You can play 1000 hours in 3 months or in 3 years, you will have the same experience but a huge difference in skill points. I dont contradict myself at all. Ill explain it again for you. 1st. You do not need a tech II fitted BS to be good at PvP. 2nd. If someone only trained his character for 2 years and did that without actually playing, then came back, fitted his Mega with tech II mods and guns and fought, he'd still lose players with way less skillpoints but more actual experience. (This is the same as buying your char off of ebay that has a dreadnought) 3rd. The year or more you spend to train for something is useful in the terms that you gain PLAYER SKILL in that time due to fighting in Frigs/Cruisers, Fleets, Small gangs etc and learn about gamemechanics.
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:12:00 - [54] Originally by: Cmdr Sy There is more to PVP than flying T2 fitted BS. I never disputed that, but it is something most highly active PVPers will want to be able to do. It was just an example for timesink skills in general though. Quote: To fully enjoy EVE, everyone must have piloted a capital ship, because it is there to be piloted? Meh. Yep. Quote: so everyone gets to play with everything? No thanks. Everyone already gets to play with everything, he just has to buy a high SP character with ISK. That is the reality, most highly active players have many accounts for this purpose. Is that how it is supposed to be? Quote: This game is rough, in that you can't have everything, and the ever-expanding skill tree guarantees you never will. See above. Quote: A world of infinite possibility, where you choose a path and walk it. I think you will find most people here prefer EVE on masochist mode, precisely because their last one didn't have it. Very broad statement there. Certainly not true for me and not true for all the people who run multiple accounts, as far as I can tell, the majority of capship pilots (not only because of how cynos work)... "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:15:00 - [55] To the OP: How about NO. You can be effective in PvP even without bs and even without a single T2 item. Lets not deflate a sence of achievement when you finally have that capital ship skill, or you are ready to fly a HAC. I see no reason, why someone had to learn certain skill for a month a year ago, and now you should be able to complete it in a week. I don't think we want a game where after 6 months you should be able to fly anything you like.
Rangkai	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:16:00 - [56] Sure there are plenty of times when I wish some long skills would train faster, but one thing I like about eve is that all the skills will ensure I always have something new to play with for years to come. However, at some point I think it would be nice if they released another set of learning skills into the game.
Kari Awn Minmatar Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:23:00 - [57] No, skill times are just fine. Geeze!
Flitz Farseeker Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:27:00 - [58] I've only been here a month or so and have just over half a million skill points. I can fly any T1 gallente frigate or cruiser and up to lvl 2 industrials. My gunnery skills aren't half bad and I'm working through the learning skills. However, my mining and production skills suck big-time and I don't plan on flying a BS any time in the near future. I'm having plenty of fun and looking forward to what the future will bring. If I could do it all already, I'd get bored and move on. Learning rate is just fine.
Cmdr Sy EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:27:00 - [59] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Cmdr Sy To fully enjoy EVE, everyone must have piloted a capital ship, because it is there to be piloted? Meh. Yep. I just can't agree with this bit. This is not how I view the game. One of the things I love about it, is that everyone has to be different, have different specialities, professions, experiences. Some people will train alts or buy characters for ISK to get around this, and I know of a few people who went off to the test server more or less permanently, to play with stuff they were too disorganised and impatient to acquire themselves. I simply do not believe this game should accomodate everyone's desire to be the Hero, to have the Sword and the Damsel with Female Armour II, at no cost. This is a cog in a machine game, not a legend.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:33:00 - [60] Originally by: Lazuran - to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari). - Carriers and Dreads also take about a year to train for and then you'll still suck at everything else 1 - Not true. I pvp frequently in battlecrusiers / cruisers, and they do it just fine. HAC's die to a well fitted BC. 2 - Once you can fly a dread, you can almost use a t2 fitted BS as well. Once you can fly a domi, you're about 20 days off of having a full skilled ogre II dom. HF --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:49:00 - [61] Originally by: Rodj Blake I prefer the opposite argument. If you let people fly everything in the game after three months, why should they keep playing after that when there's nothing new to aim for? 3 months is too short, agreed. But your argument is unreasonable. People want to play/do things in order to achieve something and make progress and not simply wait. There more you do without having the feeling of making progress in relation to your actions, the less the feeling of achievement will be. This is demotivating. Also, I really don't think that the long-term interest in EVE lies in increasing your skillpoints, it should be the game itself that keeps you interested. I believe that the feeling that your character's progress is grinding to a halt at some point is one of the main reasons why the average player lasts only for 7 months. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:52:00 - [62] Edited by: Cattraknoff on 04/09/2006 15:52:27 Originally by: RedLion Originally by: Cattraknoff Well, I didn't really want those things, honestly we don't need the entire game focused around grinding, too many games are like that....Lets not make this a game where only 12 years olds with no lives outside of the game can compete. We all know the world has enough MMO's like that. Well, it don't have to become hard core grind, if they had limited the gains. For example 500k SP each month or so. It's just that some of us "new" ones really want to progress. I wouldn't object to paying a bit of isk for LIMITED use speedup of skill training. Just as long as it can't be used often. EDIT: Actually I think boosters are supposed to do something along these lines.
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:53:00 - [63] Originally by: lofty29 1 - Not true. I pvp frequently in battlecrusiers / cruisers, and they do it just fine. HAC's die to a well fitted BC. They do fine, but they can't handle many different PVP situations, they will die against a BS almost every time (1v1 at least). This is what I meant buy "all-rounder". Quote: 2 - Once you can fly a dread, you can almost use a t2 fitted BS as well. Once you can fly a domi, you're about 20 days off of having a full skilled ogre II dom. HF I disagree. You can fly a Domi without any or with minimal drone skills, but a "full skilled ogre II domi" takes another couple of million SP (think drone interfacing 5, heavy drone 5, specialization, ...), that's more like 2-3 months. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:54:00 - [64] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Rodj Blake I prefer the opposite argument. If you let people fly everything in the game after three months, why should they keep playing after that when there's nothing new to aim for? 3 months is too short, agreed. But your argument is unreasonable. People want to play/do things in order to achieve something and make progress and not simply wait. There more you do without having the feeling of making progress in relation to your actions, the less the feeling of achievement will be. This is demotivating. Also, I really don't think that the long-term interest in EVE lies in increasing your skillpoints, it should be the game itself that keeps you interested. I believe that the feeling that your character's progress is grinding to a halt at some point is one of the main reasons why the average player lasts only for 7 months. It doesnt come to a halt, and the great thing in eve is that exactly as you say, you can freely enjoy the game WHILE your training/grinding is done. Its not like you have to stop doing something fun just because you are training for a carrier or dreadnought. If you are so into having fun playing the actual game and not watching your SP increase, I dont see the slightest problem with the time it takes to train for certain things. Just enjoy the game while waiting for the skills to finish.
Kharriga Caldari The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:57:00 - [65] no
eLLioTT wave Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:06:00 - [66] no. however i wouldn't be opposed to seeing "elite learning skills" introduced, so long as: they cost 1b each they are same rank as advanced they are somewhat rare (not available in empire or something) - leaked to us from the jovians.
mechtech	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:37:00 - [67] you might have an arguement, but change it now, and 1/2 of eve will leave (maybe more). how are the 30+ mil sp people biased? they have played hard for 3 years, and don't want to see the work go to waste. The new uber asian characters were a good boost to noobs, ccp can't do anything more without losing part of their community.
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:49:00 - [68] Originally by: mechtech you might have an arguement, but change it now, and 1/2 of eve will leave (maybe more). how are the 30+ mil sp people biased? they have played hard for 3 years, and don't want to see the work go to waste. The new uber asian characters were a good boost to noobs, ccp can't do anything more without losing part of their community. while i have reservations as to making all skills training faster without it costing the player, you argue players would quit because training times became shorter, due to feeling they wasted time....sorry thats got to be the worst logic I have seen on this thread. players would not quit because that WOULD BE WASTING THEIR TIME of the last 3 years players would train new skills they hadn't bothered with before, but it should have a cost involved (as i suggested, or another method) Are you one of the types that picks up your ball in the middle of a game because you are not winning and go home pouting?? FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
NeOnicuS Newbies On Xstacy Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:56:00 - [69] Theres already stuff out there to decrease trainign times. Learning skills, and implants. ----------- Yaarrr!! Where have all the cowboys gone?
Estelle Matsuko Caldari The Beiatch Corp Inc	Posted - 2006.09.04 18:12:00 - [70] 2 mill sp here. Having a blast. Training time is fine. It weeds out the l33t kiddies who just HAVE to be UBER rtf now, and go off in high dudgeon if they can¦t be. Set a skill, forget about it till it flashes you and just play the damned game.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.04 18:35:00 - [71] Originally by: Lazuran to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari) I see that you already lost EVE. I have almost 30mil SP and can't fly a T2-fitted BS nor do I want to and I still have lots of fun! Based on your comments about Caldari being easier to train (when missiles suck for fleet battles) and the fact you think you need a T2-fitted BS to PvP, I would assume that you've never even been to 0.0 and are just some empire carebear who is waiting until you have maxed all PvP skills before you enter 0.0
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.04 19:01:00 - [72] @ original poster: yes, definately. CCP designed a game were to get to the endgame you'd need x monthes. The, they introduced truckloads of new skills and yet they didn't adapt the learning curve. Which means it is definately harder to get the endgame for a newcomer since x monthes is now several times x monthes. My carrier is in the oven, so I could be as selfish as most people here and be happy to have it so much easier than new players, but that's the opposite of a PvP game IMHO where only your skills matter, not the time you spent ingame. But hey, even Oveur still thinks there's no difference between a player with a skill at 5 and another with the same skill at 4, forgetting on the way that said player will have loads of skills to 5 and the player with skills at 4 won't stand a chance at all. ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 19:16:00 - [73] Originally by: Sorja @ original poster: yes, definately. CCP designed a game were to get to the endgame you'd need x monthes. The, they introduced truckloads of new skills and yet they didn't adapt the learning curve. Which means it is definately harder to get the endgame for a newcomer since x monthes is now several times x monthes. My carrier is in the oven, so I could be as selfish as most people here and be happy to have it so much easier than new players, but that's the opposite of a PvP game IMHO where only your skills matter, not the time you spent ingame. But hey, even Oveur still thinks there's no difference between a player with a skill at 5 and another with the same skill at 4, forgetting on the way that said player will have loads of skills to 5 and the player with skills at 4 won't stand a chance at all. There isn't meant to be an endgame.
Neesa Corrinne Ordo Adeptus Astartes Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.09.04 20:13:00 - [74] Skill training times are just fine. There's no sense of accomplishment like waiting a month for a skill to train and then getting to use it for the first time. It feels great. What I DO think should be changed is the ability to remove skills and recover skillpoints. Before I decided what I really wanted to do in this game I trained a bunch of mining skills, and now I just want those points back to put somewhere else. I will never mine again and I would love to use those skillpoints somewhere else.
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 20:16:00 - [75] Maybe getting 50% recovery on a skill you "untrain" wouldn't be much of a RP justification for it, though.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 20:19:00 - [76] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: lofty29 1 - Not true. I pvp frequently in battlecrusiers / cruisers, and they do it just fine. HAC's die to a well fitted BC. They do fine, but they can't handle many different PVP situations, they will die against a BS almost every time (1v1 at least). This is what I meant buy "all-rounder". Quote: 2 - Once you can fly a dread, you can almost use a t2 fitted BS as well. Once you can fly a domi, you're about 20 days off of having a full skilled ogre II dom. HF I disagree. You can fly a Domi without any or with minimal drone skills, but a "full skilled ogre II domi" takes another couple of million SP (think drone interfacing 5, heavy drone 5, specialization, ...), that's more like 2-3 months. I meant a carrier --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. Loot!
Minikrimi Extreme Caldari Kimotoro Privateers	Posted - 2006.09.04 20:58:00 - [77] It seems to me that most of this is a misunderstanding of the time frame involved in Eve. To get a lot of the high end stuff we are talking a couple years commitment. This is not a game where a few months "entitles" you to anything. The people flying capital ships-- how long have they been in the game? Definitely not 230 days. The thing with Eve is that it is NOT like every other MMO out there. Yes, you can pick up the basic skills to fly a Dread in 230 days (is that even a real number or just a random made up one that is repeated?). But you still haven't EARNED it. A Dread or Carrier is a fleet vehicle when used properly. You need fuel, you need a cyno field spotter to move it. So to really earn a Dreadnaught or Carrier you need to earn the respect of an organization to support the ship. I guess you can use it solo to run missions, though if that is going on I would seriously request that just moving on impulse for any length of time should have a fuel cost just to make this harder. Consider the context of Eve, of course someone who uses them in missions has little respect for the game world. Sigh. But even then, the point is that yes it DOES take a year to get into them. Yes, it DOES require sacrificing other career tracks to use them as quickly as possible. That is the point of them. There is no "right" to all of the game content. There is basic stuff, then there is elite stuff. And you have to earn the elite stuff, you have to win the right to use it. That is the point to it. You put in your time, you network, you work your ass off, and you get your capital ship. You can do anything, but you can't do everything.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.04 21:06:00 - [78] Originally by: RedLion Originally by: Cattraknoff Edited by: Cattraknoff on 04/09/2006 13:59:19 Lets not give agent ***s even more advantages, please. edit: (directed at redlion) O.O, what you mean? It's up to people how they want to play the game. So please don't call people who are trying to play the game in a not abusive way, names. Thanks You're trying to suggest something that only agent ***s would be able to use. In a game that is made for player interaction, adding something with massive bonuses, to an NPC thing, is a horrible idea due to that alone. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy
Lo3d3R Implant Liberation Front	Posted - 2006.09.04 21:06:00 - [79] YES, to damn long, CCP likes isk sinks (good for economy) so let us get our capital ships blown up plz. (the prices for the skills are good though) ___________________ Eating Chopped Bear:
Isyel Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.09.04 21:11:00 - [80] Why do people have so many problems with the skills? Just have fun. I'm a little more than 8 months in game, 7.5mil sp (learning skills been done very far apart from eachother) and been training minmatar ships all along. I recently went gallente to get their BSs (don't like the matari ones) and yes, i have less SP. Do i feel disadvantaged? Sure, people specialised in it way before me, they have all the right to have more experience than me in them. Do i feel it should change? Heck no, i'm liking it as it is. puts gallente BS4 to train It's all a matter of mindset. I like the skill training, it is what makes eve Special, and truth be told, noone should fly carriers etc. easily. Let them put effort into it, they specialise in them and are weaker on other fronts. Shorten training time and in time you will have "uber vets". Chars that cannot be beaten if the player has skills simply because they are perfect in everything. Now THAT would kill Eve.
Hippo117 Caldari 9th Fleet Academy	Posted - 2006.09.04 21:12:00 - [81] Originally by: Lazuran This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari). Excuse me? So i've spent the last year of my ingame time doing what exactly? Because by your comment I sure as hell couldnt have been training anything related to T2 battleship mods because I had those when i was on the 14 day trial. STFU and go suck one. -------------- My opinions may not represent the opinions of my corporation or alliance. Booby > Rokh Caldari != win button.
Isyel Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.09.04 21:16:00 - [82] Edited by: Isyel on 04/09/2006 21:16:59 Originally by: Lazuran This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari). EveMON, my Gallente training. Gal BS 4, large blaster spec 4, some other skills to help greatly... 3 months. No implants. Huh? Don't tell me that's not half decent to fly one.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 21:24:00 - [83] Edited by: Gariuys on 04/09/2006 21:25:13 You'd have a point if this was a grind game, but it's not, just set the training and play the game. Only need lvl 1 to do that, everything else is getting better at something. And all-round pvper needs t2 fitted BS, only if you like those damn blobs. And I certainly don't. Carriers and dreads are highly specialized ships, definetly not ships that are a goal to set for yourself, not that any ship is anything beyond being a tool. Remember people flying over alts to my homebase cause I was one of the first to be able to fly and own a deimos. That feeling off flying something special is worth a helluvalot more then getting in it fast. Cause and that's the deal with most of EVE it's on special when it takes time, and effort and can be lost... true achievement and dedication. if you want quick fixes play guild wars. Edit: It's like saying on the L2 boards that lvl 78 shouldn't take 200 hours ( that's just lvl 78 FYI ) of straight grinding. It's how the game was designed, and people love it. Cause by god hitting 78 is something truly special.
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 22:37:00 - [84] Originally by: Gariuys Edit: It's like saying on the L2 boards that lvl 78 shouldn't take 200 hours ( that's just lvl 78 FYI ) of straight grinding. It's how the game was designed, and people love it. Cause by god hitting 78 is something truly special. No, it's not, because in EVE it doesn't matter how much or how well you play, you just have to wait. No amount of grinding is going to help, so if you set yourself a goal that requires 6 months of training, you can just as well stop playing and log on only to switch skills. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.04 22:38:00 - [85] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne What I DO think should be changed is the ability to remove skills and recover skillpoints. Before I decided what I really wanted to do in this game I trained a bunch of mining skills, and now I just want those points back to put somewhere else. That's a great idea actually. I'd like to get rid of all those (now) useless SP in Science ... "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Sidraket	Posted - 2006.09.04 23:38:00 - [86] Training times are fine, if you have advanced learning skills at 4. Thats a big hassle, and its prevented me from making other characters because i just DONT want to sit through all of that again. Remove those skills, give everyone the stat boost of them. I JUST finished training them up, they take up almost a third of my characters total SPs, and id be willing to make that all amount to nothing if you just got rid of them and gave everyone the stat boost.
Teccmo Gallente Praetorian Guard Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.09.05 02:01:00 - [87] My only gripe about training time is when I think about how long Eve will last. If the game is going to go strong for another 3 years, which IMO it definatley will, new peak player records since I've joined over a year ago then there is no reason to complain and those wacky geniuses at CCP will keep adding and building bigger and better things, and more goals for us as pilots to achieve. ===There is an eerie calm in space, fragile minds shatter===
violator2k5 Caldari care bears have awesome vessals	Posted - 2006.09.05 02:37:00 - [88] Originally by: Admai Sket 'x16' skills just sound rediculous to me - level 5 on one of those must be a few MONTHS, surely? basically just work out what skills you need for that skill then look at x1 skill that requires the same skills and then do the match its not that hard x1 skill x x16 = roughly 64 days give or take a few days depending on attributes Need A Merc? ......... Hire Chav today got 20p for bus fare m8 :P
Karoth Tyu FATAL REVELATIONS	Posted - 2006.09.05 02:39:00 - [89] Getting all your basic PvP or industrial skills to 4 takes no time at all. Anyone can easily become deadly at PvP or awesome at industry in a few short months. It's the specialization of skill sets which takes time. And I for one am glad as hell that it takes time and effort to become good at anyone one thing in this game. Eve doesn't need demigod players who are level 5 at everything. Quote: - to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari). That's absolute crap. To be an all-round effective PvPer, you just have to have an IQ higher than a boot's. Tech2 helps, but its hardly the end all be all in Eve combat, especially out in 0.0 where 1 on 1 battles (where Tech2 excels) hardly happen. In this game, tactics and brainpower > Shiny trinkets. Period.
Leumas Ebmocnud	Posted - 2006.09.05 03:53:00 - [90] Eve is a drug, and CCP are the dealers :P Its in their interest to have horrendously long skill training times, it keeps the money flowing in. Can you imagine your 3rd week into the game, you`ve got your Titan, you`ve setup your POS, the isk is flowing and you think what next? The skill times are long to keep the monthly subscriptions coming in, and we will pay it because we are addicted to improving our characters 'inch by tiny inch' And to be honest with you, this is my sig.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Mordu's Elite	Posted - 2006.09.05 04:10:00 - [91] Originally by: Lazuran What do you think, should training be faster? Answers from people with 30m+ SP aren't interesting, they're biased ;-). It ain't gonna happen but i would prefer it if : (1) learning skills were removed completely (2) train times of skills were reduced to compensate for this Why ? Learning skills really are what you are referring to as "timesink skills" which have no real purpose but are just a result of the way the game was designed. They are an existing example of the problem with the "Warp to 0km" skill that some have proposed as an alternative to instas. Everyone would have to train it and once they did it would be the same as if everyone has started with the skill in the first place. Almost everyone hates them but almost everyone trains them cos not do so means you will suffer from a huge SP disadavantage within a few months of starting, which happens to be about the same time that you become effective in PvP so deciding whether to train them or not has a direct impact on your ability to compete with others. I'd leave the racial differences in attribs as they are and still give players the ability to distribute some of the starting attrib points as they see fit but thereafter only give them a way to temporarily boost attribs using implants and drugs. Learning skills suck imo.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Mordu's Elite	Posted - 2006.09.05 04:40:00 - [92] Originally by: Sidraket Training times are fine, if you have advanced learning skills at 4. Thats a big hassle, and its prevented me from making other characters because i just DONT want to sit through all of that again. Remove those skills, give everyone the stat boost of them. I JUST finished training them up, they take up almost a third of my characters total SPs, and id be willing to make that all amount to nothing if you just got rid of them and gave everyone the stat boost. /signed
RedLion Caldari Gloria Victis	Posted - 2006.09.05 11:59:00 - [93] noo, not a general stat boost. would waste my skill points. then i should get those sp back to put in other skills, imo :(
Pablos Ine Aquarius Corp	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:12:00 - [94] Training times are fine, to be honest, i'd feel a little cheated to find that training times were decreased because someone didnt want to wait as long. We all have done it, train your learning skills up, buy implants. Thats what everyone else does. 400x120@24000 bytes or less please. -Capsicum "Only the dead have seen the end of war." Plato "I drank what !!! ?" Socrates
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:16:00 - [95] lol at all the people claiming you need a t2 fitted BS to be an "all round pvper". Thats just plain wrong. PVP is about teamwork, not about ship setups. A well trained "noob" can easily contribute to a pvp operation, and needs relatively few skillpoints to get into an interceptor. As you train for your t2 bs, you can fly your way up through inties, cruisers, battlecruisers and tech 1 fitted BS. All of which are effective pvp ships, and all of which I would never refuse from an operation. If you want to go to 0.0 and fight fleet battles, then yeah a t2 fitted BS might help - but even fleet battles need tacklers. Yes, it takes time to pick up the skills to use a t2 fitted BS, but believe me, it takes a lot longer to pick up the "smarts" to use one. Most of all, you don't need one to have fun. -- NEW Vid: Domi For the Win!
Mikey Monkfish	Posted - 2006.09.05 15:04:00 - [96] I really can't be arsed nor have the time to read 4 pages, so I'll add my opinion and find a suitable shelter to hide in, so here we go.... Dons flame retardant suit Being relatively new to Eve, I don't have that many skills to speak of ATM. I've been in the game about 1-2 weeks, and have a few lvl 4 skills, mostly lvl 2-3 and currently learning a few core skills at lvl 1. Now, I was looking at what skill to choose next. I though I'd go for Gallante Frigate lvl 4 (I think it was that anyway), but it was going to take some 22 days! Now, from my point of view, I really do not want to wait nearly a month to gain a skill that will let me learn another skill to get a big ship I can't even afford yet. I don't mind it taking 22 days, but I'm not sure what I could do in the meantime. 22 days of hauling ore about is really gonna bore my t*ts off. However, on the flipside, I can appreciate and understand that the 1yr+ vets in the game have sat through the same laborious skill training and ore shifting routine previously. In conclusion, it's a case of head down, arse up, and get on with it. I will continue what I am doing, learning new skills and builing up my Corp to the point where I could call myself a vet, and laugh at the other noobs at the time whining about skill times.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.09.05 15:09:00 - [97] They need to unnerf vherokior and intaki because they have **** perc and will and thus suck at combat. My char has been training pvpish skills since release and has only 34 million SP Charisma FTL.
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.05 15:24:00 - [98] Originally by: Mikey Monkfish I really can't be arsed nor have the time to read 4 pages, so I'll add my opinion and find a suitable shelter to hide in, so here we go.... Dons flame retardant suit Being relatively new to Eve, I don't have that many skills to speak of ATM. I've been in the game about 1-2 weeks, and have a few lvl 4 skills, mostly lvl 2-3 and currently learning a few core skills at lvl 1. Now, I was looking at what skill to choose next. I though I'd go for Gallante Frigate lvl 4 (I think it was that anyway), but it was going to take some 22 days! Now, from my point of view, I really do not want to wait nearly a month to gain a skill that will let me learn another skill to get a big ship I can't even afford yet. I don't mind it taking 22 days, but I'm not sure what I could do in the meantime. 22 days of hauling ore about is really gonna bore my t*ts off. However, on the flipside, I can appreciate and understand that the 1yr+ vets in the game have sat through the same laborious skill training and ore shifting routine previously. In conclusion, it's a case of head down, arse up, and get on with it. I will continue what I am doing, learning new skills and builing up my Corp to the point where I could call myself a vet, and laugh at the other noobs at the time whining about skill times. If Frigate lvl 4 would really be 22 days, I could understand the problem. But frigate lvl 5 might br 22 days with bad attributes. So, training frig 4 isnt going to take long, and you only train frig V to get AFs and Inties when you can already pilot Frigs, probably cruisers and even battlecruisers and have some support skills. That definetly gives you a lot to do while waiting 22 days. As well, trust me on 1 thing, after you have trained Frig V, Cruiser V, some HAC or Recon skills and some gunnery lvl Vs, 22 days is not going to seem as long as it probably does now to you.
Ammari Prophet	Posted - 2006.09.05 15:45:00 - [99] Eve has gone from a unique universe to "who can kill the other the fastest, and then run kill missions to regain sec status" Joy. I wouldn't mind the long training times if there were missions OTHER than kill missions still around..... killing stuff and mining gets repetative. I'd join in events, if I could find them in time... so what am I doing? I'm starting a new character. Giving him a background. And I'm going to do my damn best to CREATE an RP Event, while training the skills that would make sense for my character to have. Ta-freaking-da....... And training those skills, NONE of which directly involve combat, will take me several months. In which time, my funds will probably come from mining, looting cans, or be transfered over from another character who has money to spare. But training time for non-combat skills is really too long now, with the lack of non-combat stuff in the game. Even industrial ship and mining barges require high combat ship skills to use. If they put some of the non-combat stuff back, like courier missions, I'd be quite happy again.
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.05 15:47:00 - [100] No. [ore mongers, recruiting]
BoinaAzul	Posted - 2006.09.05 16:20:00 - [101] It's not that bad, it's only taking my alt about 4 months to get all the skills ready for the Archon (carrier) and the skills only cost about 3x his stagnant ISK+ASSETS. Big skills are for vets, period. Those who don't need to train anything else. Doesn't take that long for a niblet to specialize in a tech II frigate.
Karol Kei Tabula Rasa Systems	Posted - 2006.09.05 16:36:00 - [102] Edited by: Karol Kei on 05/09/2006 16:39:27 Originally by: RedLion Well, it don't have to become hard core grind, if they had limited the gains. For example 500k SP each month or so. It's just that some of us "new" ones really want to progress. Then go progress. Take a frig out tonight, and get some experience. And repeat tomorrow. In a few short weeks you will have more power than 80% of population in Eve will ever have no matter how many skill points they will acquire. EDIT: Talking about taking the frig out to PvP above. Not mining or mission grind. The skill training is a two way street. Not only do you get the skills, you also anticipate them. The high end skills are needed so high skill characters have something to get to as well. The skill system, the wait, the effing long wait, is in the very core of Eve. Eve is a game for patient people with smarts and such people will be powerful in a couple of months - no later than they would be if the skill system was sped up. There is still so much to learn outside of the game client such as setups, ships and their relative weaknesses and uses etc. Eve appeals to three year veterans. There is something very right there. No reason to **** it up so that this months noobs would get rewarded faster and get to the imagined "top" faster - unlike the ones last month or month before that or last year or year 2004 that also were calling for the change "cause they can't compete.
RedLion Caldari Gloria Victis	Posted - 2006.09.05 16:50:00 - [103] Well, the trick is to make it abit easier for noobs to catch up with pros. :) I wouldn't recommend going as far as wow, because there it's so extremely much easier to become good geared now on easy solo content, than it was 1 year ago. In eve you can't do so much other than wait, and it's boring.
Sypher313 VentureCorp CORE.	Posted - 2006.09.05 17:02:00 - [104] Yeah no dont shorten skill training times. you the human needs time to develop your own "skills" to pilot those better ships. Else you dead POP!! yeah i dint read the whole thread sue me! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Vanlade Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.09.05 17:04:00 - [105] No, training time should not be decreased. - Vanlade
000Hunter000 Gallente Dummy Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.05 17:06:00 - [106] without even bothering reading all the other posts... NO!!! Banner will be updated shortly
Tahreem Minmatar Rather Odd Industrial Dynasty	Posted - 2006.09.05 17:10:00 - [107] Training should not be decreased EXCEPT for the learning skills reduce that learning time a bit.. I had the impression more then once since we say to all new guys joining that best is to have adv learning skills to 4... they are not active till that is done since they can't learn much else in between if they do they loose time if they don't everything else takes much longer.. So maybe decreasing the learning skills time to let the new guys feel a bit faster usefull, they are usefull as soon they can use a miner or scramble in my opinion but not every new guy agrees on that with me.. Rest of the skills are just fine ------- Ceo of Rather odd industrial dynasty, We build the things rather odd
violator2k5 Caldari care bears have awesome vessals	Posted - 2006.09.05 17:48:00 - [108] from what i've seen the training time shouldnt be changed, i heard a rumor about more training skills coming out with the release of kali (not 100% sure if thats true as i havent really looked at what they plan to do tbh) if that does happen it will only increase the time that people spend on training learning skills at the start. some of you may think of that as a bad thing but once you get through them your training time on other skills will be a lot less. The idea of reducing current training times does not need to be done. the way the timing on skills is set at the moment is fine and should not be changed as it would be of more use to those that have been in the game and push them to lvl's to fast as for pvp and bs's needing a t2 tank, i could start a noob char now and within a day or 2 his ready for pvp..... frig lvl 4 and tackling.... as said before its about team work not about using t2 tanks Need A Merc? ......... Hire Chav today got 20p for bus fare m8 :P
SmEdD	Posted - 2006.09.05 18:02:00 - [109] Edited by: SmEdD on 05/09/2006 18:03:59 Edited by: SmEdD on 05/09/2006 18:03:33 Edited by: SmEdD on 05/09/2006 18:03:17 Originally by: Tahreem Training should not be decreased EXCEPT for the learning skills reduce that learning time a bit.. I had the impression more then once since we say to all new guys joining that best is to have adv learning skills to 4... they are not active till that is done since they can't learn much else in between if they do they loose time if they don't everything else takes much longer.. So maybe decreasing the learning skills time to let the new guys feel a bit faster usefull, they are usefull as soon they can use a miner or scramble in my opinion but not every new guy agrees on that with me.. Rest of the skills are just fine Agreed and I see alot of people quit the game cause they start trying to get these skills but don't have anything to fly in the mean time so they just say screw it. IMO the learning skills should be removed and everyone given the right ammount of attributes for it. Without these skills I know I wouldn't be here as stuff would take WAY too long.
Yello1	Posted - 2006.09.05 18:13:00 - [110] Training times are ludicrous. To say to new players "It will be weeks or months before you can participate in the primary focus of the game" is to say "we want most of you to never sub after the free trial". Shorten the times, and make sure its retroactive (ie if you reduce times by 50% give all existing players a credit of 50% of their skill points for them to allocate into "instant" training so that old timers wont bytoch about all the time they would have wasted on the old training times. But regardless of how, they NEED to be shortened. And while we are at it, wtheck is up with only letting one character train at a time and only having three characters per account? 8 is the standard in the industry. Are they just trying to leverage people into having to buy multiple accounts to get anywhere? Quote: Yes, Im THAT Yello1
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.05 18:29:00 - [111] NO, but basic learning skills, should be granted to all characters current and new at level 5
Deep Shadows	Posted - 2006.09.05 19:01:00 - [112] I agree that CCP should have some specialty days...more drops, faster training...something... but I think for the most part, training times are fine....though I wish training times would be capped at a max of 30 days. After a month of watching the skill train...you just want to go insane. Eve Libary - post the xml file of your character!
Gretchen Dawntreader Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.05 19:06:00 - [113] There's already a way to speed your skilling, it's called the Learning branch. On advice from my starter school I spent the time to get all stat skills to advanced 4 and Learning to 5 and I'm tearing skills up now. 16.5m sp in my first 12 months, including the time spent slowly speeding up during Learning skilling. No one can reasonably expect to fly a Dread or a Carrier in a year. Those represent the top end of ship technology and should be hard to work towards.

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