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Moppeux O'Mara
O'Mara Shipyards
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Posted - 2006.09.06 04:05:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Veleena
Congratz to joining the few in EVE who actually have brains and use them well.
Wrong
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Kirex
Gallente Vale Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.06 04:33:00 -
[32]
If this was created by you only, then this would have been 'fine', but you basicly turned Felix's dreams into a scam. Does anyone know about felix's health? Last I heard he went to the hospital. :S
Click above for my killboard stats. |
Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.06 04:36:00 -
[33]
Scams are to be expected I guess the sad thing is to see Angelina brag about stealing from friends shes had for a long time saying "everything has its price".
Actually somethings are priceless. Friendship, loyalty, commitment, honesty. Yet for some of less than admirable morality they're tossed aside for a few virtual pennies.
I've not posted on the subject of scams before because its a game mechanic thats allowed. You're allowed in Eve to be whatever you want to be. I feel most sorry for the people Angelina ripped off. They put their trust in her and befriended her and she basically flipped them the bird and ran off with the cash. Its pretty pathetic if you ask me. Not the act of stealing itself but the fact that she counted on very real emotions of friendship and trust to do it.
It becomes a little less "ingame" when you do that I think. Much moreso than just raiding a hangar without the friendship.
Which wasn't friendship to begin with. In some ways the character Angelina was acting just as a real person would. You've seen these people, pretending to be your friend to get something, leeches sucking the life right out of you, we've all seen them. Its a bit easier to see Angelina when you put it in that perspective.
Perhaps most of all I feel sorry for the honest businessmen out there who want to start companies with IPO's who are hurt by these scamming losers. They've made people "gun shy" and fearful of investing. People who are honest and have a good plan will be hurt by this and thats perhaps the biggest tragedy of this whole thing.
Some of us joined Eve to play the market, to make isk, to buy stocks, to be a "capitalist". I know when I started in Eve as Calladen Nimitz of TTI the market is what drove me to play. I couldve cared less about gate ganking pvp I just wanted a stock market.
We have hope that it CAN happen. That decent stocks can be found, that honest players exist and good business plans prevail. We hold out hope because we WANT there to be a real market driven economy and investment. Its fun to watch your stocks grow. Who hasn't cheered for Moppaux O'Mara and his great shipyard or his insane weekly statements? People like him are why some of us continue to invest even when there are scams. We have hope.
I myself am starting an IPO in about a month. I've spent weeks researching what I need to do and setting myself up. Since mentioning it on the OOC forum I've had alot of friends contact me and say "when can I invest". I'm not going for 20b or anything I'm more on the O'Mara scale and am doing it for some fun. I'll have plenty of investment and plenty of my own money in it.
And if the time comes that I dont want to do it anymore I'll sell everything off or buy it myself and distribute the proceeds to the shareholders. I wont just pocket it and say "thanks friends up yours" and walk away.
I'll have friends who will know they can count on me the person to be honest and fair and not rip them off. Some of us have spent a lifetime in Eve making a reputation and we're not just going to toss it out the window. Some of us actually see a problem with stabbing your FRIENDS in the back.
Friends...... what a concept.......
Archie
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.06 04:39:00 -
[34]
Quote: If this was created by you only, then this would have been 'fine', but you basicly turned Felix's dreams into a scam. Does anyone know about felix's health? Last I heard he went to the hospital.
Good point. This is akin to finding someone collecting for charity hit by a car and stealing the collection box and going door to door yourself claiming to be the charity just to rip them off. I mean theres "pathetic" and theres "PATHETIC".
Archie
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Wintermute Ashpool
Ashpool Manufacturing Industries Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.06 04:46:00 -
[35]
clap.....clap.......clap
Job well done. Now for the trifecta, get another alt into DTS, in a position of authority, and do it again. [tAMI] Online
400x120 12kb |
Ferrosa
Gallente Lyonesse Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.06 07:56:00 -
[36]
Pathetic
Official broker at the EvE Galactic Stock Exchange |
BurnHard
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Posted - 2006.09.06 08:08:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Veleena
...
Congratz to joining the few in EVE who actually have brains and use them well.
You are an example of why I don't even bother to login to Eve any more. It's now a game for arse-hats and ****ers. Apparently it's all about Crime and arse-raping each other with scams and ganks.
It doesn't take brains to run a scam. The contrary, it takes brains to make a legitimate profit. What it does take is a willingness to abuse other people, mainly on the forums, which to all intents and purposes are RL, not "in character".
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Brute Helmet
Minmatar J.H.E.N.R Pure.
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Posted - 2006.09.06 08:41:00 -
[38]
Originally by: BurnHard It's now a game for arse-hats and ****ers. Apparently it's all about Crime and arse-raping each other with scams and ganks.
It doesn't take brains to run a scam. The contrary, it takes brains to make a legitimate profit. What it does take is a willingness to abuse other people, mainly on the forums, which to all intents and purposes are RL, not "in character".
For a scam to succeed you need willing victims as well. Basically this is what greed leads to, on both sides. Greed from the scammer and greed from the scammed. Expecting something for nothing is how people lose money.
_____________________________
Support the MGRL - uncover your six |
BurnHard
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Posted - 2006.09.06 08:48:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Brute Helmet
For a scam to succeed you need willing victims as well. Basically this is what greed leads to, on both sides. Greed from the scammer and greed from the scammed. Expecting something for nothing is how people lose money.
It's business. It isn't something for nothing. By investing you are providing the company with a resource it can use. It pays you fees for using that resource in the form of a dividend. You can transfer the option to use that resource around by buying/selling your shares.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.06 09:20:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Angelina Starchild They are good people, but I guess everything has its price.
Heh, this made me think of a joke.
Man enters a bar, and asks a pretty lady: Hi there, would you sleep with me for a million dollars?.
She looks at him and says she'd certainly be willing to.
So then the guy asks, ok, what about 50 bucks? Immediately she becomes angry and shouts, What do you think I am, a *****?
So the guy replies, we've already established you're a *****, we're just negotiating about the price now.
Whatever you think you just did, all you are is a two-bit thief who sold out integrity for a few measly bucks. While I think people are stupid to invest in IPOs in Eve, without any recourse, that doesn't change the fact you're scum.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.06 10:13:00 -
[41]
The sad thing here is it shows a lot about the character of the person behind Angelina Starchild. There should be some way for potential employers to check on these things, someone that scams in a game, most likely will steal from friends, family and employers if given even the slightest chance.
Its is the quick and easy road, taken by some in the corporate world. Inevitably it comes back to haunt them in life.
I worry greatly about such people, when they go before that God that created all of us and he asks How was your dealings with your fellow man? Were you honest in all your dealings?
To those that perputrate such scams, that claim its only a game, what will their answer be to the Creator. How will they fare at that Judgement Bar we all shall pass after this life.
How I would tremble were I in their shoes. Tremble with that great fear and dread, knowing I could not look into the face of the Master and tell him Yes, for in that self same moment he would know I was lying and I would be undone.
It is a shame that there are no ways to penalize the perpetrator as they do with poddings and ships. Is it not a greater crime to do these kinds of crimes where oen steals or destroys severals work, rather than just one. But do not think you shall get completely away Angelina. In time we all have to face who we are, and what we have become.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.06 10:17:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua It is a shame that there are no ways to penalize the perpetrator as they do with poddings and ships. Is it not a greater crime to do these kinds of crimes where oen steals or destroys severals work, rather than just one. But do not think you shall get completely away Angelina. In time we all have to face who we are, and what we have become.
Its called risk vs reward, or lack thereof.
There is zero risk in scamming.
--[23] Member--
Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.06 10:26:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Mecinia Lua It is a shame that there are no ways to penalize the perpetrator as they do with poddings and ships. Is it not a greater crime to do these kinds of crimes where oen steals or destroys severals work, rather than just one. But do not think you shall get completely away Angelina. In time we all have to face who we are, and what we have become.
Its called risk vs reward, or lack thereof.
There is zero risk in scamming.
I agree there is no risk. Since the reward in eve is suppose to be comparable to the risk, then scamming should not be rewarded, and should become a bannable offense.
They probably lose far more people who get scammed than they gain by allowing scamming to occur.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2006.09.06 10:30:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua I worry greatly about such people, when they go before that God that created
Like I worry for people who give up looking for justice in this world, trusting that all wrongs will be corrected in some other place.
Do you worry for the dreadful fate of people who play chess? To be succesful in that game you might have to, gasp, eat a queen. Or how about people who in boxing matches beat the other?
In other words, especially considering scam stories used to advertise this game, one could really argue that scamming is part of the rules for this game, the way this is to be played. At least for some sub-profession.
After all, who is worse, a murderer (shooting hundreds of capsules and slaying non-capsuleer NPCs, or a financial scammer?
Hence, I do not believe any of those random business partners that trusted to the OP has reasons to extend this to out-of-game world. They both played by the rules of the game, and lost.
Although I also believe this game can be used as one of those myriads forums available us for bonding with other people; for making friendships and communities.
Also I do not believe there is any fundamental difference in betraying your friends in RL than betraying them here in game. Both might be legal in view of RL and game laws, yet both are as immoral.
Hence, unless you really were OP's friend, don't be so quick to throw the stones.
-Lasse
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.06 10:49:00 -
[45]
I do agree with you there is nothing fundamentally different about who you are in a game than who you are at the core of your being.
In fact that was the point of my earlier post you were partially quoting.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2006.09.06 11:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua I do agree with you there is nothing fundamentally different about who you are in a game than who you are at the core of your being.
Doesn't tell much how that should be applied to the games.
So, can even if you in your core are non-cannibalist fellows, can you still eat queens in chess? Or, as very equivalent, can a pacifist shoot people in FPS games, or can a honest fellow in RL scam his ingame business partners in Eve?
If you think there is some fundamental difference between those questions, I would be like to hear what it is.
-Lasse
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.06 11:22:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Heikki
Originally by: Mecinia Lua I do agree with you there is nothing fundamentally different about who you are in a game than who you are at the core of your being.
Doesn't tell much how that should be applied to the games.
So, can even if you in your core are non-cannibalist fellows, can you still eat queens in chess? Or, as very equivalent, can a pacifist shoot people in FPS games, or can a honest fellow in RL scam his ingame business partners in Eve?
If you think there is some fundamental difference between those questions, I would be like to hear what it is.
-Lasse
I don't think its about the act of scamming that tells a bit about you. Like you said, its part of the game.
But the comment about betraying friends, and "everything has its price" was a bit chilling tbh. and might just tell a bit more about the person.
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Thecle Vifargent
Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.06 11:38:00 -
[48]
Meanwhile, my friends borrow me billions without any questions... and i always return them back.
I definitively put you in another species-box than the mankind. At the same level of the spider and the worm, somewhere around for sure. ______________________________________________________
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.06 12:54:00 -
[49]
As there is really no risk involved for the scammer in an IPO scam I would entirely agree that they should be banned.
Imagine an Eve market economy where people can actually build a corporation and have outside investors and have it be "honest". I think the need for people to be involved in the game and creating such a marketplace far outweigh the need for the "scammer" to "be a scammer".
People can sit at gates and pirate, theres risk, people can put scams on escrow. theres a defense when you show merchandise. But these scams have no real defense yet the market economy and the shares system entirely are created to PROMOTE business not harm it.
CCP needs to seriously look at banning IPO type scams. They do much greater harm to the entire game and the concept of "corporate business" then removing them as an allowed game mechanic would do.
I would much rather lose money on a bad investment where at least I know it was a bad business plan than have some pathetic person just take it all. At least the prior is "honest business" whereas the latter is just "pathetic".
Archie
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Zxepa
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Posted - 2006.09.06 13:34:00 -
[50]
What's this?...oh, more people losing ridiculous amounts of assets/isk, again.
...Next topic
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.09.06 14:06:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 06/09/2006 14:08:34
Originally by: Mecinia Lua I worry greatly about such people, when they go before that God that created all of us and he asks How was your dealings with your fellow man? Were you honest in all your dealings?
And god sayeth to the scammer: "Lolz d00d, only 10b e-money? roflcopter go back to WoW kiddie, no heaven for j00 lolol. Now lets go gank some n00bs, yarrr!"
1. The final justice may be not something you expect. After all, who has created all that is evil?
2. Banning scamming because there is no risk. Hehe. Even though all the big scammers of late told you their main characters, then (claimed to) fly around low sec in officer kitted battleships. Sorry to disapoint you, but there is no risk whatsoever in almost all (good) ways to make money in eve. If you have not won yet, there is no point to fight.
3. this "scam" seems to be sad. SVE scammed 25b with an rather unknown character without any ties of friendship etc. This one here was a well respected one, and so far, there is less then 10b in loot. You could have easily asked for another 25b like erfnam did - you were just a couple notches behind him in trust value. Are you all that poor that you care about a couple bil? I thought you are traders, not scrubs.
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Resetgun
Caldari Caldari Space Ammunition
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Posted - 2006.09.06 14:11:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Mecinia Lua It is a shame that there are no ways to penalize the perpetrator as they do with poddings and ships. Is it not a greater crime to do these kinds of crimes where oen steals or destroys severals work, rather than just one. But do not think you shall get completely away Angelina. In time we all have to face who we are, and what we have become.
Its called risk vs reward, or lack thereof.
There is zero risk in scamming.
I agree there is no risk. Since the reward in eve is suppose to be comparable to the risk, then scamming should not be rewarded, and should become a bannable offense.
They probably lose far more people who get scammed than they gain by allowing scamming to occur.
I feel sorry that some players are using other players trust this way, however I don't think that it is good idea, if CCP starts banning scammers:
- It would require lot's of GM resources to investigate all possible scams and initiate proper action.
- It would be huge step toward WoW style carebear MMORPG, where players freedom to create content and "fun/drama" would be reduced.
If CPP would start role-playing and change scammerĘs security status permanently to negative value, it wouldn't really stop scammers, because they could always transfer profit to their alts. This would also need lots of GM resources to investigate possible scam.
Best method to stop IPO scammers, would implement game mechanism that limit CEOĘs powers in public listed corporations and give more power for shareholders. For example:
- CEOs or any other corporation members shouldn't be able to freely take items from corporation hangars.
- Necessary equipment: like mining equipment would be leasable from corporation with reasonable collateral.
- CEOs shouldn't have unlimited access to corporation's wallet. CEOs and other officers could place orders and buy items for corporation, but shareholders should be able to limit money used to orders. For larger orders CEOs/officers would need shareholders approval.
Generally entire corporation model should be changed from traditional MMORPG guild model to almost real corporation model. CEOs and other officers shouldn't be gods. Shareholders should have more power and more tools to protect and audit their investment. This should be implemented to code, because it is not possible to hunt down all scammers alt and additional accounts.
Of course, this wouldn't stop scams like Prig Tech... but everyone should have freedom to give away valuable items without collaterals.
"As long as there are greedy people and the devs do nothing, it will work." - Dentara Rast, billionaire |
Block Ukx
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Posted - 2006.09.06 14:31:00 -
[53]
I have a few suggestions that might help end corp theft and IPO scamming and require very small changes.
(1) CEO has no voting rights (2) All money earned by the CEO goes directly to the corporation wallet and is not transferable (3) CEO is the only one authorized to submit purchase/sell orders for the company (4) All items purchased by the CEO are tagged as company assets and can only be used by the company (5) Company assets can only be sold by the CEO (6) Available list of Company assets and Shareholders.
This way the money resides in the company. The only way to distribute money out of the corp wallet is by paying dividends.
What do you guys think?
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Yggr
Gallente Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.06 14:46:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Resetgun
Generally entire corporation model should be changed from traditional MMORPG guild model to almost real corporation model. CEOs and other officers shouldn't be gods. Shareholders should have more power and more tools to protect and audit their investment. This should be implemented to code, because it is not possible to hunt down all scammers alt and additional accounts.
To do this, you would need a Board of Directors, who represent the shareholders' interests. The company's officers are in charge of day-to-day management, while the Board oversees them, and has the power to remove officers (including the CEO).
I'm not really sure how this could be implemented in-game, at least at the moment. -----
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
[TomB,] Were you true to the name [Tom Bombadil], dancing around the woods singing (and killing anything that moved) without a care in the world?
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.06 14:58:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Block Ukx I have a few suggestions that might help end corp theft and IPO scamming and require very small changes.
(1) CEO has no voting rights (2) All money earned by the CEO goes directly to the corporation wallet and is not transferable (3) CEO is the only one authorized to submit purchase/sell orders for the company (4) All items purchased by the CEO are tagged as company assets and can only be used by the company (5) Company assets can only be sold by the CEO (6) Available list of Company assets and Shareholders.
This way the money resides in the company. The only way to distribute money out of the corp wallet is by paying dividends.
What do you guys think?
Like someone else said before, there is very little that can be done. GM resources needed would be huge.
From your example, if I were a scamming CEO, I would just sell the corp hulks for 1 isk to an OOC alt, and buy 1 piece of trit from the same alt with the entire contents of the corp wallet.
There is no defense against scamming.
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Block Ukx
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Posted - 2006.09.06 15:12:00 -
[56]
Malachon:
Then add this to the list: (7) Purchase/Sell orders larger than 100 mil require a vote. (8) Assets worth more than 100 mil cannot be sold without a sell order. (9) Purchases cannot exceed 100 mil/day without a purchase order.
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Angelina Starchild
Prigogine Technologies
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Posted - 2006.09.06 15:55:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Angelina Starchild on 06/09/2006 15:55:28
Originally by: Block Ukx Malachon:
Then add this to the list: (7) Purchase/Sell orders larger than 100 mil require a vote. (8) Assets worth more than 100 mil cannot be sold without a sell order. (9) Purchases cannot exceed 100 mil/day without a purchase order.
(10) Make it possible for corpwallet to purchase escrow (so the buyer wont have any hands on access to it and thus able to run away with it). -- |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.06 16:07:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Angelina Starchild Edited by: Angelina Starchild on 06/09/2006 15:55:28
Originally by: Block Ukx Malachon:
Then add this to the list: (7) Purchase/Sell orders larger than 100 mil require a vote. (8) Assets worth more than 100 mil cannot be sold without a sell order. (9) Purchases cannot exceed 100 mil/day without a purchase order.
(10) Make it possible for corpwallet to purchase escrow (so the buyer wont have any hands on access to it and thus able to run away with it).
Best solution: Allow corporations to have their own accounts, which work like a normal character but can only fly in shuttles and have no skills.
This would allow all restrictions and the like while allowing the corporation to claim escrow/etc.
This account could cost a small fee extra per month, but not as much as a normal account/
--[23] Member--
Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
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Gaius Sejanus
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2006.09.06 16:59:00 -
[59]
You want to stop scamming?
Post real life address and phone number contact information for all players.
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Calynus
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.09.06 17:32:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Gaius Sejanus You want to stop scamming?
Post real life address and phone number contact information for all players.
Scammers feel free to use RL drama to perpetuate their in-game scams and CCP lets them get away with no in-game repercussions and no real mechanism for the playerbase to get any justice, so maybe players should be able to use RL to enforce justice on said scammers. Fair's fair right?
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