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Angelina Starchild Prigogine Technologies Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.04 21:31:00 - [1] View Blog Here I'm sorry for the great delay, some minor issues were experienced. This week's a little bit special so I made some cool graphics. Maybe not all too expected by some but well not much more to say really. I hope you are satisfied with this report, I know I am atleast :) Thanks for all the support recieved so far during my journey, it's been great! -
Arktaos Minmatar The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.09.05 07:18:00 - [2] Woah, these forums are scamtastic lately Want to spoil the curious with all the BPO's you got now? - - - - - - - - - - I got lost somewhere along the road....
Sayamana	Posted - 2006.09.05 07:27:00 - [3] Edited by: Sayamana on 05/09/2006 07:27:12 Nicely done and nice graph, no drama, very clean Yarr ! You have been sC4m0rz3d
Marodi Julita	Posted - 2006.09.05 13:40:00 - [4] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=reply&threadID=389021 Notice that it's located in balle where PRIG is set up... yeah.... most probably
Taurequis Waylander 01	Posted - 2006.09.05 14:10:00 - [5] i feel sorry for felix.
Kindred Storm	Posted - 2006.09.05 14:19:00 - [6] I bought a lot of shares based on this report score :( [PRIG]-report added by Erfnam on August 9, 2006, 9:16 am Report Details Assets: - Expenses: - Revenues: - Evaluation: PRIG has recently changed ownership due to Felix being forced to take a RL leave from EVE. Angelina Starchild has assumed the role of CEO. Prior to the change over, PRIG had consistently posted strong weekly dividends. Since the change, PRIG has taken on more staff and significantly more orders. This coupled with them taking advantage of fuel saving practices, the weekly dividend has increased. PRIG anticipates several long term clients to keep profits at least at their current level for the next few months. The market for custom research is a booming industry with new companies entering almost every week. There is no data to size of this market and if/when it will become saturated. IPO price for this stock was 5,000 isk. With the current trend of roughly 5% dividend per week (based upon IPO price), this stock is a decent buy up to 4-5x IPO price. Current market orders are at 8-12x IPO price, resulting in a monthly dividend below 3%. Dividend: 0.00 ISK per share Score: 85% Not even a month gone by :( I cannot find any other reports on this company? I will not be dealing in shares again in this game, everything is scams and the brokers corrupt?
JuQuan Rakeriku	Posted - 2006.09.05 14:42:00 - [7] This is a real shame. Felix did a good job getting this going and had good intentions.
Angelina Starchild Prigogine Technologies Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 14:56:00 - [8] I didn't even know that Erfnam had written that somewhere, was a good read now though. Just to make it clear, the DTS Alliance were not in any way aware of my actions or plans or involved in it. Perhaps they said some kind words that made someone invest in the shares that otherwise wouldn't have. Other than that they have not been involved. You may feel bad about your shares loosing it value, however, the BPO's handed to me are worth many times as much as any shares would cost. Most of my actions ever within Daikoku and before it was launched has been purely honest without any bad intent and for some time I planned to continue that way. However, when realising the vast amount of isks handed over without any other collateral than my word made a twist in my head and made me go for a run. Some of the people that I stole of are (in-game) friends of mine since a few years back. They are good people, but I guess everything has its price. So, it's been said many times and I say it again - Don't trust anyone. Over and out. -
Alaph Force Gallente Es and Whizz	Posted - 2006.09.05 15:19:00 - [9] Well I guess IPOs and other such stuff just isn't eant to work in EvE. At least until we find a way of holding people accountable for their actions. Ah well, you want to avoid scams stick to the market, buy......sell......no scaming EvE Sigfiles
Level4 Minmatar Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 15:38:00 - [10] You make me sick Angelina/Ervinia Daisy and other alts you have... I guess that is what you get for helping ppl in Eve. What has this game turned into ?
Feronia Gallente Magma Industries	Posted - 2006.09.05 15:52:00 - [11] Originally by: Angelina Starchild Some of the people that I stole of are (in-game) friends of mine since a few years back. They are good people, but I guess everything has its price. Its a shame some people value a few bill virtual money above a long-term friendship. What good will your money do you, if you lost all your ingame friends, credibility and reputation.
Erfnam Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 16:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Angelina Starchild I didn't even know that Erfnam had written that somewhere, was a good read now though. And this is why I don't like writing reports. Even those you think you can trust end up disappointing you. Quote: Just to make it clear, the DTS Alliance were not in any way aware of my actions or plans or involved in it. Perhaps they said some kind words that made someone invest in the shares that otherwise wouldn't have. Other than that they have not been involved. You didn't have to loot the holding corp's wallet to prove this. Quote: You may feel bad about your shares loosing it value, however, the BPO's handed to me are worth many times as much as any shares would cost. I can attest to BPO losses, he got away with my Raven BPO. Quote: Most of my actions ever within Daikoku and before it was launched has been purely honest without any bad intent and for some time I planned to continue that way. However, when realising the vast amount of isks handed over without any other collateral than my word made a twist in my head and made me go for a run. We all have a theorectically price. I guess your number was rather low. Your current actions negate the legitimacy of any prior actions. In my mind, it was all a build up to a scam. Quote: Some of the people that I stole of are (in-game) friends of mine since a few years back. They are good people, but I guess everything has its price. So, it's been said many times and I say it again - Don't trust anyone. This is what saddens me the most. To add to the list of alts, Eric Gordon. Casino - [TCCS]
Elange4 Haven Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.09.05 18:04:00 - [13] I just plain do not know what to say to this. I want to cuss, question, and apologize simultaneously. Apologize because I may have lent legitimacy to the project thru posts about your progress on Trader's Lounge... Cuss and Question because you, Angelina, have let down the entire market, real friends, and simply the Spirit of EvE. The beauty of the game is that it is an economy, and particularly that it is Player Driven in gameplay AND Development. This whole scamming syndrome betrays the trust that CCP has put in us as players and co-producers of EvE. Should it mean we have to turn to the mere game-mechanics for any sense of stability, then it is YOU, Angelina, (plus Cally, and maybe five others), who have played a good part in killing the young soul we as a community have been nurturing. This is the first time I have ever mauled the forum with brutal verbiage. **** You, Angelina. --Elange4 Trader's Lounge - Finance Street No Alts please - you must register in-game
Suzuna Taki Caldari Equitus Nosferatum Praetorians	Posted - 2006.09.05 18:32:00 - [14] Originally by: Angelina Starchild Don't trust anyone. Don't do as she (or he, doesn't matter) says. She can run with your money, but don't let her run with your faith in people. I want to believe that for each scammer there are plenty of honest businessmen.
AceOfSpace Myth...	Posted - 2006.09.05 19:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Suzuna Taki Originally by: Angelina Starchild Don't trust anyone. Don't do as she (or he, doesn't matter) says. She can run with your money, but don't let her run with your faith in people. I want to believe that for each scammer there are plenty of honest businessmen. o/ I'm an honest businessman! You can tell because I have no money -where there's an ace, there's a way-
Pluppo Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 20:02:00 - [16] I am very dissapointed to hear that you have chosen to be a scammer Angelina. No matter what you say about your honest relation with your ex-alliance, you have shamed the Daikoku Trade Syndicate. I was very proud of being part of a trader's alliance that had a very good reputation, based on honesty and fair play. I am a bit shocked to learn that this didn't mean much to you at all. I've always believed that the trader's most valuable asset is being honest and trustworthy. I hope that your scam will not put the Daikoku Trade Syndicate in a bad light, so that it affects us honest traders. Oh, and you can keep my BPO's... I don't want them back.
Cherybol Trader's Academy Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 20:24:00 - [17] You could have made way more money in the long run if you just went with the flow and operated it like a legit buisness that felix had in mind. Thank god I didn't team up with Felix. I could have lost my POS's. Signature removed, please resize it to meet the 24000 bytes maxium rule. Yours is currently 58244 bytes. -Ivan K
De Mont Trader's Academy Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 20:35:00 - [18] I lost nothing in terms of ISK because of this - I wasnt an investor or customer with [PRIG], and the multiple scams that have happened recently haven't really bothered me - it's part of the game as far as I see. However this has hurt me. Many people (even you Angelina) have worked hard to make the Daikoku Trade Syndicate trusted and respected. By your actions above, you undermine all the efforts of the DTS, both now, and in the future and that hurts us. As traders we are all chasing profit, but I'd like to think we value our community and the opportunities that it presents higher. Do not think that you can absolve yourself through an 'My Alliance had nothing to do with this...' post. The fact remains that you were strongly associated with us and so your actions reflect on us regardless. If you post on these forums again, at least have the decency not to use a DTS sig. De Mont
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.09.05 20:47:00 - [19] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 05/09/2006 20:49:41 Hmm, how much in assets did you steal? I am honestly suprised that someone with your name and (maybe more important) your former Alliance tag would care about a couple billions. So far we have a Raven BPO, a full set of fighter BPO, some cruisers and a small RnD POS. Unless there are some HAC BPOs or a full capital ship BPO set, thats not really anything worth mentioning. For me, everything has a price - good friends start around a t. Thats why i am a bit suprised by this.
Veleena Amarr Eve Intergalactic Bank Investments	Posted - 2006.09.05 20:49:00 - [20] Job well done. congrats
JP Moregain Gallente EVE Reserve Bank	Posted - 2006.09.05 21:49:00 - [21] Originally by: Angelina Starchild blah blah blah Sorry I am lazy but I am taking what my 'friends' have worked hard to build up, both ISK and credibility... No, this was not well done. Well done would have been making the business a success because that is clearly harder to do. I guess this kind of 'gameplay' is now officially part of EVE. I bet you go to bed tonight with a great sense of accomplishment.... Sad really. JP "In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..."
Veleena Amarr Eve Intergalactic Bank Investments	Posted - 2006.09.05 22:24:00 - [22] Originally by: JP Moregain No, this was not well done. Well done would have been making the business a success because that is clearly harder to do. I guess this kind of 'gameplay' is now officially part of EVE. I bet you go to bed tonight with a great sense of accomplishment.... Sad really. JP Actually it is well done. Well done because Angelina took advantage of your trust and used it against you. with decent results, plus those BPO's are worth a little bit extra now due to the research thats been done on them. Are you people really this stupid just to hand over valueables with no possibility of recouping your investment as and when you want to? Angelina seen an opportunity to gain control of a pedigree business and capitalize on its credibility value by increasing her wealth. Its a dog eat dog world for sure. Congratz to joining the few in EVE who actually have brains and use them well.
Angelina Starchild Prigogine Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.05 22:25:00 - [23] Edited by: Angelina Starchild on 05/09/2006 22:30:10 Originally by: Veleena Job well done. congrats Thanks, you didn't do too bad either :) Want to cook something up for the future? Edit: I wouldn't say it was very well done, it could've been better. But I'm satisfied so well, Well done in one sense and poor in another. If I would've bothered I'd most likely been able to grab even more stuff. However, some of all these BPO's were needed by my other main aswell as some extra capital to mass produce it. -
Cherybol Trader's Academy Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 22:48:00 - [24] Nothing to be proud of, or worked up about. This isn't what i classify as a scam. This is what i clasify as a corp theft. She didn't use social engineering. She was just presented with the door to a huge pile of assets, and she took them. Nothing more, nothing less. CEO's, directors, and people of power have this ability to, they don't do it. But angelina did, hence, shes just a corp theif. Nothing to see here folks, lets just let this story die. Signature removed, please resize it to meet the 24000 bytes maxium rule. Yours is currently 58244 bytes. -Ivan K
Devestor	Posted - 2006.09.05 22:49:00 - [25] ^^^ QFT
AceOfSpace Myth...	Posted - 2006.09.05 23:16:00 - [26] It seems to me that lately this kind of thing is becoming... well... trendy. People steal some stuff and that's all well and good (it's their choice to exchange their friends for other assets)... but then they come on the forum and are so SMUG about it It's always the same.. pride to the point of smugness, and the idea that what's been done is in some way very cool. It's not cool, it's just a way to make isk for a very hefty cost to your character's value. Good for you. Go play the game and stop writing about it as if it's some unique and brilliant achievement -where there's an ace, there's a way-
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.06 00:31:00 - [27] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 06/09/2006 00:35:24 Sickening. Just sickening. I didn't give PRIG any of my BPOs, as they would not give collateral. I guess I was right. The fact that CCP refuses to create any contractual system to allow a proper financial market, however, makes this all quite expected. Expect these stupid, pointless scams to continue until CCP realizes that no real market can happen until they end. Scamming should involve careful accounting fraud and sneaking through holes in contracts, not simply deciding one day "hey I'll run away with the money!" and doing so. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2006.09.06 02:10:00 - [28] I lost a small amount (hair over 3 million, figuring in the dividends received), which is not the sad part. The sad part is Angelina ****ing on her reputation, the DTS' reputation, and most of all...Felix, who got screwed with his pants on in a way that is completely out of his control. Of course, there's the issue of Prigogine being more profitable to operate than to steal from. So in addition to all the other stupidity involved, it was a horrible business decision too. Taking advantage of someone with a serious medical condition. I honestly cannot come up with anything more repugnant than that.
Taurequis Waylander 01	Posted - 2006.09.06 02:10:00 - [29] I would guess most of the people hurt by this one are his former alliance mates and "friends" who both put bpo's into the service Felix setup before he got ill and had first tabs on the shares Felix sold. Very sad. Taur
Jits Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.06 02:56:00 - [30] Do you feel proud of this? All you are is a small time corp thief you dont even deserve to be called a scammer , no better than an ore thief. Ohhh big bad Angelina watch out! Wow now all of EVE just thinks your plain pathetic...congrats on being a pathetic thief
Moppeux O'Mara O'Mara Shipyards	Posted - 2006.09.06 04:05:00 - [31] Originally by: Veleena Congratz to joining the few in EVE who actually have brains and use them well. Wrong
Kirex Gallente Vale Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.09.06 04:33:00 - [32] If this was created by you only, then this would have been 'fine', but you basicly turned Felix's dreams into a scam. Does anyone know about felix's health? Last I heard he went to the hospital. :S Click above for my killboard stats.
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.06 04:36:00 - [33] Scams are to be expected I guess the sad thing is to see Angelina brag about stealing from friends shes had for a long time saying "everything has its price". Actually somethings are priceless. Friendship, loyalty, commitment, honesty. Yet for some of less than admirable morality they're tossed aside for a few virtual pennies. I've not posted on the subject of scams before because its a game mechanic thats allowed. You're allowed in Eve to be whatever you want to be. I feel most sorry for the people Angelina ripped off. They put their trust in her and befriended her and she basically flipped them the bird and ran off with the cash. Its pretty pathetic if you ask me. Not the act of stealing itself but the fact that she counted on very real emotions of friendship and trust to do it. It becomes a little less "ingame" when you do that I think. Much moreso than just raiding a hangar without the friendship. Which wasn't friendship to begin with. In some ways the character Angelina was acting just as a real person would. You've seen these people, pretending to be your friend to get something, leeches sucking the life right out of you, we've all seen them. Its a bit easier to see Angelina when you put it in that perspective. Perhaps most of all I feel sorry for the honest businessmen out there who want to start companies with IPO's who are hurt by these scamming losers. They've made people "gun shy" and fearful of investing. People who are honest and have a good plan will be hurt by this and thats perhaps the biggest tragedy of this whole thing. Some of us joined Eve to play the market, to make isk, to buy stocks, to be a "capitalist". I know when I started in Eve as Calladen Nimitz of TTI the market is what drove me to play. I couldve cared less about gate ganking pvp I just wanted a stock market. We have hope that it CAN happen. That decent stocks can be found, that honest players exist and good business plans prevail. We hold out hope because we WANT there to be a real market driven economy and investment. Its fun to watch your stocks grow. Who hasn't cheered for Moppaux O'Mara and his great shipyard or his insane weekly statements? People like him are why some of us continue to invest even when there are scams. We have hope. I myself am starting an IPO in about a month. I've spent weeks researching what I need to do and setting myself up. Since mentioning it on the OOC forum I've had alot of friends contact me and say "when can I invest". I'm not going for 20b or anything I'm more on the O'Mara scale and am doing it for some fun. I'll have plenty of investment and plenty of my own money in it. And if the time comes that I dont want to do it anymore I'll sell everything off or buy it myself and distribute the proceeds to the shareholders. I wont just pocket it and say "thanks friends up yours" and walk away. I'll have friends who will know they can count on me the person to be honest and fair and not rip them off. Some of us have spent a lifetime in Eve making a reputation and we're not just going to toss it out the window. Some of us actually see a problem with stabbing your FRIENDS in the back. Friends...... what a concept....... Archie PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.06 04:39:00 - [34] Quote: If this was created by you only, then this would have been 'fine', but you basicly turned Felix's dreams into a scam. Does anyone know about felix's health? Last I heard he went to the hospital. Good point. This is akin to finding someone collecting for charity hit by a car and stealing the collection box and going door to door yourself claiming to be the charity just to rip them off. I mean theres "pathetic" and theres "PATHETIC". Archie PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Wintermute Ashpool Ashpool Manufacturing Industries Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.06 04:46:00 - [35] clap.....clap.......clap Job well done. Now for the trifecta, get another alt into DTS, in a position of authority, and do it again. [tAMI] Online 400x120 12kb
Ferrosa Gallente Lyonesse Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.06 07:56:00 - [36] Pathetic Official broker at the EvE Galactic Stock Exchange
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.09.06 08:08:00 - [37] Originally by: Veleena ... Congratz to joining the few in EVE who actually have brains and use them well. You are an example of why I don't even bother to login to Eve any more. It's now a game for arse-hats and ****ers. Apparently it's all about Crime and arse-raping each other with scams and ganks. It doesn't take brains to run a scam. The contrary, it takes brains to make a legitimate profit. What it does take is a willingness to abuse other people, mainly on the forums, which to all intents and purposes are RL, not "in character".
Brute Helmet Minmatar J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.09.06 08:41:00 - [38] Originally by: BurnHard It's now a game for arse-hats and ****ers. Apparently it's all about Crime and arse-raping each other with scams and ganks. It doesn't take brains to run a scam. The contrary, it takes brains to make a legitimate profit. What it does take is a willingness to abuse other people, mainly on the forums, which to all intents and purposes are RL, not "in character". For a scam to succeed you need willing victims as well. Basically this is what greed leads to, on both sides. Greed from the scammer and greed from the scammed. Expecting something for nothing is how people lose money. _____________________________ Support the MGRL - uncover your six
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.09.06 08:48:00 - [39] Originally by: Brute Helmet For a scam to succeed you need willing victims as well. Basically this is what greed leads to, on both sides. Greed from the scammer and greed from the scammed. Expecting something for nothing is how people lose money. It's business. It isn't something for nothing. By investing you are providing the company with a resource it can use. It pays you fees for using that resource in the form of a dividend. You can transfer the option to use that resource around by buying/selling your shares.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.06 09:20:00 - [40] Originally by: Angelina Starchild They are good people, but I guess everything has its price. Heh, this made me think of a joke. Man enters a bar, and asks a pretty lady: Hi there, would you sleep with me for a million dollars?. She looks at him and says she'd certainly be willing to. So then the guy asks, ok, what about 50 bucks? Immediately she becomes angry and shouts, What do you think I am, a ***? So the guy replies, we've already established you're a ***, we're just negotiating about the price now. Whatever you think you just did, all you are is a two-bit thief who sold out integrity for a few measly bucks. While I think people are stupid to invest in IPOs in Eve, without any recourse, that doesn't change the fact you're scum.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.06 10:13:00 - [41] The sad thing here is it shows a lot about the character of the person behind Angelina Starchild. There should be some way for potential employers to check on these things, someone that scams in a game, most likely will steal from friends, family and employers if given even the slightest chance. Its is the quick and easy road, taken by some in the corporate world. Inevitably it comes back to haunt them in life. I worry greatly about such people, when they go before that God that created all of us and he asks How was your dealings with your fellow man? Were you honest in all your dealings? To those that perputrate such scams, that claim its only a game, what will their answer be to the Creator. How will they fare at that Judgement Bar we all shall pass after this life. How I would tremble were I in their shoes. Tremble with that great fear and dread, knowing I could not look into the face of the Master and tell him Yes, for in that self same moment he would know I was lying and I would be undone. It is a shame that there are no ways to penalize the perpetrator as they do with poddings and ships. Is it not a greater crime to do these kinds of crimes where oen steals or destroys severals work, rather than just one. But do not think you shall get completely away Angelina. In time we all have to face who we are, and what we have become. Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.06 10:17:00 - [42] Originally by: Mecinia Lua It is a shame that there are no ways to penalize the perpetrator as they do with poddings and ships. Is it not a greater crime to do these kinds of crimes where oen steals or destroys severals work, rather than just one. But do not think you shall get completely away Angelina. In time we all have to face who we are, and what we have become. Its called risk vs reward, or lack thereof. There is zero risk in scamming. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.06 10:26:00 - [43] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Mecinia Lua It is a shame that there are no ways to penalize the perpetrator as they do with poddings and ships. Is it not a greater crime to do these kinds of crimes where oen steals or destroys severals work, rather than just one. But do not think you shall get completely away Angelina. In time we all have to face who we are, and what we have become. Its called risk vs reward, or lack thereof. There is zero risk in scamming. I agree there is no risk. Since the reward in eve is suppose to be comparable to the risk, then scamming should not be rewarded, and should become a bannable offense. They probably lose far more people who get scammed than they gain by allowing scamming to occur. Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.09.06 10:30:00 - [44] Originally by: Mecinia Lua I worry greatly about such people, when they go before that God that created Like I worry for people who give up looking for justice in this world, trusting that all wrongs will be corrected in some other place. Do you worry for the dreadful fate of people who play chess? To be succesful in that game you might have to, gasp, eat a queen. Or how about people who in boxing matches beat the other? In other words, especially considering scam stories used to advertise this game, one could really argue that scamming is part of the rules for this game, the way this is to be played. At least for some sub-profession. After all, who is worse, a murderer (shooting hundreds of capsules and slaying non-capsuleer NPCs, or a financial scammer? Hence, I do not believe any of those random business partners that trusted to the OP has reasons to extend this to out-of-game world. They both played by the rules of the game, and lost. Although I also believe this game can be used as one of those myriads forums available us for bonding with other people; for making friendships and communities. Also I do not believe there is any fundamental difference in betraying your friends in RL than betraying them here in game. Both might be legal in view of RL and game laws, yet both are as immoral. Hence, unless you really were OP's friend, don't be so quick to throw the stones. -Lasse
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.06 10:49:00 - [45] I do agree with you there is nothing fundamentally different about who you are in a game than who you are at the core of your being. In fact that was the point of my earlier post you were partially quoting. Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.09.06 11:13:00 - [46] Originally by: Mecinia Lua I do agree with you there is nothing fundamentally different about who you are in a game than who you are at the core of your being. Doesn't tell much how that should be applied to the games. So, can even if you in your core are non-cannibalist fellows, can you still eat queens in chess? Or, as very equivalent, can a pacifist shoot people in FPS games, or can a honest fellow in RL scam his ingame business partners in Eve? If you think there is some fundamental difference between those questions, I would be like to hear what it is. -Lasse
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.06 11:22:00 - [47] Originally by: Heikki Originally by: Mecinia Lua I do agree with you there is nothing fundamentally different about who you are in a game than who you are at the core of your being. Doesn't tell much how that should be applied to the games. So, can even if you in your core are non-cannibalist fellows, can you still eat queens in chess? Or, as very equivalent, can a pacifist shoot people in FPS games, or can a honest fellow in RL scam his ingame business partners in Eve? If you think there is some fundamental difference between those questions, I would be like to hear what it is. -Lasse I don't think its about the act of scamming that tells a bit about you. Like you said, its part of the game. But the comment about betraying friends, and "everything has its price" was a bit chilling tbh. and might just tell a bit more about the person.
Thecle Vifargent Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.06 11:38:00 - [48] Meanwhile, my friends borrow me billions without any questions... and i always return them back. I definitively put you in another species-box than the mankind. At the same level of the spider and the worm, somewhere around for sure. ______________________________________________________
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.06 12:54:00 - [49] As there is really no risk involved for the scammer in an IPO scam I would entirely agree that they should be banned. Imagine an Eve market economy where people can actually build a corporation and have outside investors and have it be "honest". I think the need for people to be involved in the game and creating such a marketplace far outweigh the need for the "scammer" to "be a scammer". People can sit at gates and pirate, theres risk, people can put scams on escrow. theres a defense when you show merchandise. But these scams have no real defense yet the market economy and the shares system entirely are created to PROMOTE business not harm it. CCP needs to seriously look at banning IPO type scams. They do much greater harm to the entire game and the concept of "corporate business" then removing them as an allowed game mechanic would do. I would much rather lose money on a bad investment where at least I know it was a bad business plan than have some pathetic person just take it all. At least the prior is "honest business" whereas the latter is just "pathetic". Archie PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Zxepa	Posted - 2006.09.06 13:34:00 - [50] What's this?...oh, more people losing ridiculous amounts of assets/isk, again. ...Next topic
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.09.06 14:06:00 - [51] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 06/09/2006 14:08:34 Originally by: Mecinia Lua I worry greatly about such people, when they go before that God that created all of us and he asks How was your dealings with your fellow man? Were you honest in all your dealings? And god sayeth to the scammer: "Lolz d00d, only 10b e-money? roflcopter go back to WoW kiddie, no heaven for j00 lolol. Now lets go gank some n00bs, yarrr!" 1. The final justice may be not something you expect. After all, who has created all that is evil? 2. Banning scamming because there is no risk. Hehe. Even though all the big scammers of late told you their main characters, then (claimed to) fly around low sec in officer kitted battleships. Sorry to disapoint you, but there is no risk whatsoever in almost all (good) ways to make money in eve. If you have not won yet, there is no point to fight. 3. this "scam" seems to be sad. SVE scammed 25b with an rather unknown character without any ties of friendship etc. This one here was a well respected one, and so far, there is less then 10b in loot. You could have easily asked for another 25b like erfnam did - you were just a couple notches behind him in trust value. Are you all that poor that you care about a couple bil? I thought you are traders, not scrubs.
Resetgun Caldari Caldari Space Ammunition	Posted - 2006.09.06 14:11:00 - [52] Originally by: Mecinia Lua Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Mecinia Lua It is a shame that there are no ways to penalize the perpetrator as they do with poddings and ships. Is it not a greater crime to do these kinds of crimes where oen steals or destroys severals work, rather than just one. But do not think you shall get completely away Angelina. In time we all have to face who we are, and what we have become. Its called risk vs reward, or lack thereof. There is zero risk in scamming. I agree there is no risk. Since the reward in eve is suppose to be comparable to the risk, then scamming should not be rewarded, and should become a bannable offense. They probably lose far more people who get scammed than they gain by allowing scamming to occur. I feel sorry that some players are using other players trust this way, however I don't think that it is good idea, if CCP starts banning scammers: It would require lot's of GM resources to investigate all possible scams and initiate proper action. It would be huge step toward WoW style carebear MMORPG, where players freedom to create content and "fun/drama" would be reduced. If CPP would start role-playing and change scammerÆs security status permanently to negative value, it wouldn't really stop scammers, because they could always transfer profit to their alts. This would also need lots of GM resources to investigate possible scam. Best method to stop IPO scammers, would implement game mechanism that limit CEOÆs powers in public listed corporations and give more power for shareholders. For example: CEOs or any other corporation members shouldn't be able to freely take items from corporation hangars. Necessary equipment: like mining equipment would be leasable from corporation with reasonable collateral. CEOs shouldn't have unlimited access to corporation's wallet. CEOs and other officers could place orders and buy items for corporation, but shareholders should be able to limit money used to orders. For larger orders CEOs/officers would need shareholders approval. Generally entire corporation model should be changed from traditional MMORPG guild model to almost real corporation model. CEOs and other officers shouldn't be gods. Shareholders should have more power and more tools to protect and audit their investment. This should be implemented to code, because it is not possible to hunt down all scammers alt and additional accounts. Of course, this wouldn't stop scams like Prig Tech... but everyone should have freedom to give away valuable items without collaterals. "As long as there are greedy people and the devs do nothing, it will work." - Dentara Rast, billionaire
Block Ukx	Posted - 2006.09.06 14:31:00 - [53] I have a few suggestions that might help end corp theft and IPO scamming and require very small changes. (1) CEO has no voting rights (2) All money earned by the CEO goes directly to the corporation wallet and is not transferable (3) CEO is the only one authorized to submit purchase/sell orders for the company (4) All items purchased by the CEO are tagged as company assets and can only be used by the company (5) Company assets can only be sold by the CEO (6) Available list of Company assets and Shareholders. This way the money resides in the company. The only way to distribute money out of the corp wallet is by paying dividends. What do you guys think?
Yggr Gallente Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.06 14:46:00 - [54] Originally by: Resetgun Generally entire corporation model should be changed from traditional MMORPG guild model to almost real corporation model. CEOs and other officers shouldn't be gods. Shareholders should have more power and more tools to protect and audit their investment. This should be implemented to code, because it is not possible to hunt down all scammers alt and additional accounts. To do this, you would need a Board of Directors, who represent the shareholders' interests. The company's officers are in charge of day-to-day management, while the Board oversees them, and has the power to remove officers (including the CEO). I'm not really sure how this could be implemented in-game, at least at the moment. ----- Originally by: Malthros Zenobia [TomB,] Were you true to the name [Tom Bombadil], dancing around the woods singing (and killing anything that moved) without a care in the world?
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.06 14:58:00 - [55] Originally by: Block Ukx I have a few suggestions that might help end corp theft and IPO scamming and require very small changes. (1) CEO has no voting rights (2) All money earned by the CEO goes directly to the corporation wallet and is not transferable (3) CEO is the only one authorized to submit purchase/sell orders for the company (4) All items purchased by the CEO are tagged as company assets and can only be used by the company (5) Company assets can only be sold by the CEO (6) Available list of Company assets and Shareholders. This way the money resides in the company. The only way to distribute money out of the corp wallet is by paying dividends. What do you guys think? Like someone else said before, there is very little that can be done. GM resources needed would be huge. From your example, if I were a scamming CEO, I would just sell the corp hulks for 1 isk to an OOC alt, and buy 1 piece of trit from the same alt with the entire contents of the corp wallet. There is no defense against scamming.
Block Ukx	Posted - 2006.09.06 15:12:00 - [56] Malachon: Then add this to the list: (7) Purchase/Sell orders larger than 100 mil require a vote. (8) Assets worth more than 100 mil cannot be sold without a sell order. (9) Purchases cannot exceed 100 mil/day without a purchase order.
Angelina Starchild Prigogine Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.06 15:55:00 - [57] Edited by: Angelina Starchild on 06/09/2006 15:55:28 Originally by: Block Ukx Malachon: Then add this to the list: (7) Purchase/Sell orders larger than 100 mil require a vote. (8) Assets worth more than 100 mil cannot be sold without a sell order. (9) Purchases cannot exceed 100 mil/day without a purchase order. (10) Make it possible for corpwallet to purchase escrow (so the buyer wont have any hands on access to it and thus able to run away with it). --
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.06 16:07:00 - [58] Originally by: Angelina Starchild Edited by: Angelina Starchild on 06/09/2006 15:55:28 Originally by: Block Ukx Malachon: Then add this to the list: (7) Purchase/Sell orders larger than 100 mil require a vote. (8) Assets worth more than 100 mil cannot be sold without a sell order. (9) Purchases cannot exceed 100 mil/day without a purchase order. (10) Make it possible for corpwallet to purchase escrow (so the buyer wont have any hands on access to it and thus able to run away with it). Best solution: Allow corporations to have their own accounts, which work like a normal character but can only fly in shuttles and have no skills. This would allow all restrictions and the like while allowing the corporation to claim escrow/etc. This account could cost a small fee extra per month, but not as much as a normal account/ --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2006.09.06 16:59:00 - [59] You want to stop scamming? Post real life address and phone number contact information for all players.
Calynus Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.06 17:32:00 - [60] Originally by: Gaius Sejanus You want to stop scamming? Post real life address and phone number contact information for all players. Scammers feel free to use RL drama to perpetuate their in-game scams and CCP lets them get away with no in-game repercussions and no real mechanism for the playerbase to get any justice, so maybe players should be able to use RL to enforce justice on said scammers. Fair's fair right?
Pang Grohl Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.06 17:45:00 - [61] Originally by: Yggr Originally by: Resetgun Generally entire corporation model should be changed from traditional MMORPG guild model to almost real corporation model. CEOs and other officers shouldn't be gods. Shareholders should have more power and more tools to protect and audit their investment. This should be implemented to code, because it is not possible to hunt down all scammers alt and additional accounts. To do this, you would need a Board of Directors, who represent the shareholders' interests. The company's officers are in charge of day-to-day management, while the Board oversees them, and has the power to remove officers (including the CEO). I'm not really sure how this could be implemented in-game, at least at the moment. The problem would be allowing multiple corporate organizations that correspond to real-life. IMO, this is a corporate theft, not a scam. Prig was a fully functional successful business before an immoral CEO got involved. If you want to exact revenge on Angelina, do it. Hunt her down and pod her until you feel better. The only way she can avoid it is to park in a station. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Yggr Gallente Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.06 17:46:00 - [62] Originally by: Gaius Sejanus You want to stop scamming? Post real life address and phone number contact information for all players. You couldn't do this for European players - the privacy laws are pretty strict there. And you'd probably be sued by American players... ----- Originally by: Malthros Zenobia [TomB,] Were you true to the name [Tom Bombadil], dancing around the woods singing (and killing anything that moved) without a care in the world?
Yolinde	Posted - 2006.09.06 18:01:00 - [63] Originally by: Pang Grohl Originally by: Yggr Originally by: Resetgun Generally entire corporation model should be changed from traditional MMORPG guild model to almost real corporation model. CEOs and other officers shouldn't be gods. Shareholders should have more power and more tools to protect and audit their investment. This should be implemented to code, because it is not possible to hunt down all scammers alt and additional accounts. To do this, you would need a Board of Directors, who represent the shareholders' interests. The company's officers are in charge of day-to-day management, while the Board oversees them, and has the power to remove officers (including the CEO). I'm not really sure how this could be implemented in-game, at least at the moment. The problem would be allowing multiple corporate organizations that correspond to real-life. IMO, this is a corporate theft, not a scam. Prig was a fully functional successful business before an immoral CEO got involved. If you want to exact revenge on Angelina, do it. Hunt her down and pod her until you feel better. The only way she can avoid it is to park in a station. Hunting her down won't do anything really. He/she/it will simply transfer some assets to an alt that we don't know about and play them until people calm down a little then be free to operate again. You can kid yourself all you want; there truly is no justice against this sort of behavior in EVE. The shield of anomynimity from real life persecution makes it so completely easy to do and it's all "legal" within the game. I can understand CCP wanting to interfere as little as possible and let players run and shape the events in the game, but at the same time, they need to allow players to have a better means of punishing miscreants within the game framework. Until they take action to give us, the players, such tools, the stock market in this game is a joke.
Taurequis Waylander 01	Posted - 2006.09.06 18:28:00 - [64] I wouldnt mind have CCP roleplay a Concord version of SEc. That any new IPO that wants to run legit posts its self through this concord agency and thereby allows itself to be subject to a no-scam or you will have yours assets seized and redistrubuted and pilots licence revoked rule. Obviously its more complex then that but would provide a solid base and groundwork for this sector to keep growing without infringing on the wider "scamming" world of eve. Taur
Pang Grohl Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.06 18:42:00 - [65] Originally by: Yolinde Originally by: Pang Grohl Originally by: Yggr Originally by: Resetgun Generally entire corporation model should be changed from traditional MMORPG guild model to almost real corporation model. CEOs and other officers shouldn't be gods. Shareholders should have more power and more tools to protect and audit their investment. This should be implemented to code, because it is not possible to hunt down all scammers alt and additional accounts. To do this, you would need a Board of Directors, who represent the shareholders' interests. The company's officers are in charge of day-to-day management, while the Board oversees them, and has the power to remove officers (including the CEO). I'm not really sure how this could be implemented in-game, at least at the moment. The problem would be allowing multiple corporate organizations that correspond to real-life. IMO, this is a corporate theft, not a scam. Prig was a fully functional successful business before an immoral CEO got involved. If you want to exact revenge on Angelina, do it. Hunt her down and pod her until you feel better. The only way she can avoid it is to park in a station. Hunting her down won't do anything really. He/she/it will simply transfer some assets to an alt that we don't know about and play them until people calm down a little then be free to operate again. You can kid yourself all you want; there truly is no justice against this sort of behavior in EVE. The shield of anomynimity from real life persecution makes it so completely easy to do and it's all "legal" within the game. I can understand CCP wanting to interfere as little as possible and let players run and shape the events in the game, but at the same time, they need to allow players to have a better means of punishing miscreants within the game framework. Until they take action to give us, the players, such tools, the stock market in this game is a joke. 1) Why should CCP do something for us that we aren't willing to try to do for ourselves? 2) Learn to seperate the player from the character. If you can do that, punishing Angelina Starchild by forcing her to lay low or flee empire space is enough. Also, leave her alts out of this until they speak up to claim some of the responsibility. 3) All this rabble to involve real life persecution is disgusting. It says some pretty bad things about the kind of person you are. FFS its a GAME. If you can't make the distinction between the game and real life, you need to be doing something else. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Calynus Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.06 18:53:00 - [66] Edited by: Calynus on 06/09/2006 18:53:44 Originally by: Pang Grohl 1) Why should CCP do something for us that we aren't willing to try to do for ourselves? 2) Learn to seperate the player from the character. If you can do that, punishing Angelina Starchild by forcing her to lay low or flee empire space is enough. Also, leave her alts out of this until they speak up to claim some of the responsibility. 3) All this rabble to involve real life persecution is disgusting. It says some pretty bad things about the kind of person you are. FFS its a GAME. If you can't make the distinction between the game and real life, you need to be doing something else. 1+2) You can't effectively punish scammers. You can try to hunt their scammer "character" but it really won't stop them entirely or act as deterent at all. There are no tools to allow the PLAYERS to police their own in this regard. Risk vs reward. That's why 0.0 is dangerous. It's balanced that way. Scamming = no risk, pure reward, thus it's not balanced and a flaw in the game, which is CCP's doing. 3) Oh really? Stealing from me in game is stealing some of my time away. I spend real life time to accumulate stuff in EVE, thus if someone takes those things, they are affecting me in real life. Real life does enter into things to an extent. You can hide behind the "it's just a game" arguement all you want. People aren't so angry about scams for the "1's" and "0's" on some database that aren't attached to their character's ID anymore in EVE, they are angry that these people robbed them of their real life time and effort to get those "1's" and "0's". You can try to sandbox it all you want but the fact remains that real life DOES ENTER INTO IT. And, no, before you ask, I haven't been scammed by this or any other IPO but this I do care about the game and CCP needs to take notice and attempt to change the way the market system works.
Yggr Gallente Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.06 18:57:00 - [67] Originally by: Taurequis I wouldnt mind have CCP roleplay a Concord version of SEc. That any new IPO that wants to run legit posts its self through this concord agency... In a real-life IPO, the investment bank involved basically does 2 things: 1) grants the IPO company access to the capital markets; and, more relevant to EvE, 2) "underwrites" the offering. By underwriting the offering, the bank is effectively telling the capital markets that it considers the company offering the IPO to be worthy of investment. If EvE had a trusted intermediary like a RL investment bank, it would go a long way to the creation of a true EvE capital market. (A side note: by underwriting the offering, the bank is promising the company that it will buy all the IPO shares at the IPO price, even if it can't sell them on the market. But the capital markets consider the bank's underwriting of the IPO an endorsement of the company. Look at the IPO class action lawsuit, which is still going on, 6 years after the dot com bubble burst.) ----- Originally by: Malthros Zenobia [TomB,] Were you true to the name [Tom Bombadil], dancing around the woods singing (and killing anything that moved) without a care in the world?
Pang Grohl Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.06 19:49:00 - [68] Originally by: Calynus Edited by: Calynus on 06/09/2006 18:53:44 Originally by: Pang Grohl 1) Why should CCP do something for us that we aren't willing to try to do for ourselves? 2) Learn to seperate the player from the character. If you can do that, punishing Angelina Starchild by forcing her to lay low or flee empire space is enough. Also, leave her alts out of this until they speak up to claim some of the responsibility. 3) All this rabble to involve real life persecution is disgusting. It says some pretty bad things about the kind of person you are. FFS its a GAME. If you can't make the distinction between the game and real life, you need to be doing something else. 1+2) You can't effectively punish scammers. You can try to hunt their scammer "character" but it really won't stop them entirely or act as deterent at all. There are no tools to allow the PLAYERS to police their own in this regard. Risk vs reward. That's why 0.0 is dangerous. It's balanced that way. Scamming = no risk, pure reward, thus it's not balanced and a flaw in the game, which is CCP's doing. 3) Oh really? Stealing from me in game is stealing some of my time away. I spend real life time to accumulate stuff in EVE, thus if someone takes those things, they are affecting me in real life. Real life does enter into things to an extent. You can hide behind the "it's just a game" arguement all you want. People aren't so angry about scams for the "1's" and "0's" on some database that aren't attached to their character's ID anymore in EVE, they are angry that these people robbed them of their real life time and effort to get those "1's" and "0's". You can try to sandbox it all you want but the fact remains that real life DOES ENTER INTO IT. And, no, before you ask, I haven't been scammed by this or any other IPO but this I do care about the game and CCP needs to take notice and attempt to change the way the market system works. So, I should have access to you in real life to gain an advantage in EVE? Think about that, because that's what you're asking for. Do you think that the bad people playing EVE will hesitate to use that access to screw you in real life, just because you have access to their real life identity. They won't, because a real life identity can be spoofed just like an EVE identity can. Do you ask for a refund because you chose to go see a movie that you ended up not liking? Real life enters in to EVE at the point I decide to spend a few hours of time, that's isn't doing anything else for me, logged on to EVE. Regardless of whether or not you have any bits to show for your time and money spent on EVE, you got something for it. You got the opportunity to entertain yourself in a meaningful way. The EVE stock market is the way it is because the investors in the market for the most part don't make good investment choices. Until that changes scammers will see the EVE investment market as the happy hunting ground that it is. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.09.06 21:12:00 - [69] Originally by: Calynus 1+2) You can't effectively punish scammers. You can try to hunt their scammer "character" but it really won't stop them entirely or act as deterent at all. There are no tools to allow the PLAYERS to police their own in this regard. Risk vs reward. That's why 0.0 is dangerous. It's balanced that way. Scamming = no risk, pure reward, thus it's not balanced and a flaw in the game, which is CCP's doing. 3) Oh really? Stealing from me in game is stealing some of my time away. I spend real life time to accumulate stuff in EVE, thus if someone takes those things, they are affecting me in real life. Real life does enter into things to an extent. You can hide behind the "it's just a game" arguement all you want. People aren't so angry about scams for the "1's" and "0's" on some database that aren't attached to their character's ID anymore in EVE, they are angry that these people robbed them of their real life time and effort to get those "1's" and "0's". You can try to sandbox it all you want but the fact remains that real life DOES ENTER INTO IT. And, no, before you ask, I haven't been scammed by this or any other IPO but this I do care about the game and CCP needs to take notice and attempt to change the way the market system works. 1+2) are a problem with the eve pvp system, and have absolutely nothing to do with the market or IPOs. Its sad how the lamers cry foul every scam, make up lies about lack of consequences, when in fact there is hardly a difference between a gate ganking pirate or a scammer. Noone really risks anything, everyone can hide behind alts. PIE and UK may all happily mine together to fund their rp pvp, Ginger Magician may be playing as Erfnam or O'Mara, and every single one of you can be Oveur on his player account. So what? Its a RPG, no damn dating sim. You can grind down angelina the same way BoB can grind down Goonswarm. Sure, she can log in her alt and play happily ever after, or she can use instas, join a NPC corp and hang around afk at Jita gate in a freighter using a "lolz pwned, i am invincible" macro that goes off every 3 mins in local. Well. So? Its true that the IPO market has problems, but strangely enough, all the recent scams that caused forum whines were not concerned. 3) is a problem with you, and has nothing to do with scams, or even EvE. The desire to punish the PLAYER for the actions of his CHARACTER is disgusting. You can get ripped off by Ms Starchild, and still be friends with the guy playing her. May be strange to you, but i dont go get a gun when a friend beats me in chess.
Calynus Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:20:00 - [70] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 06/09/2006 21:47:37 Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 06/09/2006 21:46:49 Originally by: Calynus 1+2) You can't effectively punish scammers. You can try to hunt their scammer "character" but it really won't stop them entirely or act as deterent at all. There are no tools to allow the PLAYERS to police their own in this regard. Risk vs reward. That's why 0.0 is dangerous. It's balanced that way. Scamming = no risk, pure reward, thus it's not balanced and a flaw in the game, which is CCP's doing. 3) Oh really? Stealing from me in game is stealing some of my time away. I spend real life time to accumulate stuff in EVE, thus if someone takes those things, they are affecting me in real life. Real life does enter into things to an extent. You can hide behind the "it's just a game" arguement all you want. People aren't so angry about scams for the "1's" and "0's" on some database that aren't attached to their character's ID anymore in EVE, they are angry that these people robbed them of their real life time and effort to get those "1's" and "0's". You can try to sandbox it all you want but the fact remains that real life DOES ENTER INTO IT. And, no, before you ask, I haven't been scammed by this or any other IPO but this I do care about the game and CCP needs to take notice and attempt to change the way the market system works. 1+2) are a problem with the eve pvp system, and have absolutely nothing to do with the market or IPOs. I would say there is hardly a difference between a gate ganking pirate or a scammer. Noone really risks anything, everyone can hide behind alts. Aligned for warp + instas + stabs (+ scouts) are no risk, and you can get billions by blowing up a zydrine hauler or a t2 BPO in a shuttle. If someone is that stupid, that is. PIE and UK may all happily mine together to fund their rp pvp, Ginger Magician may be playing as Erfnam or O'Mara, and every single one of you can be Oveur on his player account. So what? Its a RPG, no damn dating platform. You can grind down Angelina the same way BoB can grind down Goonswarm. Sure, she can log in her alt and play happily ever after, or she can use instas, join a NPC corp and hang around afk at Jita gate in a freighter using a "lolz pwned, i am invincible" macro that goes off every 3 mins in local. Well. So? Its true that the IPO market has problems, but strangely enough, all the recent scams that caused forum whines did not highlight them. 3) is a problem with you, and has nothing to do with scams, or even EvE. The desire to punish the PLAYER for the actions of his CHARACTER is disgusting. One can get ripped off by Ms Starchild, and still be friends with the guy playing her. May be strange to you, but i dont go get a gun when a friend beats me in chess. Of course, if he cheats and mumbles about "price of friendship", i may rethink trusting him in the future. You need to learn how to read or you're just being a troll. At no point did I advocate hunting down anyone in real life and exacting justice. I was being sarcastic, but I don't understand how someone can go as far as faking their own real life death and not get in trouble for it, where one would get in serious trouble for bringing real life into getting revenge. CCP needs to look at their policies and lay some ground rules for scamming and ban people that cross the boundaries set. Above, I was pointing out above that pretending that the actions of others in the game don't have some kind of real life impact on the affected parties is a fallacy people use to make excuses for despicable behavior in this game and in others. Griefing is griefing, and scamming is just a form of it.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:45:00 - [71] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 07/09/2006 14:46:56 Originally by: Calynus CCP needs to look at their policies and lay some ground rules for scamming and ban people that cross the boundaries set. Above, I was pointing out above that pretending that the actions of others in the game don't have some kind of real life impact on the affected parties is a fallacy people use to make excuses for despicable behavior in this game and in others. Griefing is griefing, and scamming is just a form of it. I have edited my post to make it more foolproof. As for the guidelines. CCP has done so already. GTC / characters are not allowed, everything else goes providing its not a violation of the EULA. Clear? No, because the EULA is written in lawyer speak (designed to be as broad and unclear as possible to guard against as many legal dangers as possible while at the same time retaining as many options as possible - banning you for having a name starting with C is perfectly within the EULA , for example). But if you ignore the typical legal nonsense, CCPs policy is clear as day. As for your other points: i know that the game has an effect on some people in IRL. And most of us playing eve laugh at people who cry over lost virtual property. Griefing is griefing, and people who make a (OOG / non-roleplaying) fuss about scams or pirates are the griefers. Just like people who sign up to a chess tournament, then start to cry and call you names for "murdering" their pieces. While noone "enjoys" losses any more then anyone enjoys losing in chess (or other games), every sane person accepts it - the really good players learn from their defeats more then they learn from their victories. Eve is a grind MMORPG, and has huge time / money investment - the problem is that some people regard one's time-investment as what it is - grind / work, and your fake possessions as real possessions. If one treats eve as work, yes, the scammer stole "real" assets. "Eve is a game" is a perfecly valid argument to dismiss 100% of all arguments that involve RL effects. One can cry about the fact that the scammer stole hours (or even weeks) of one's time - i dont care, many who play eve dont care either - go find a judge who cares that someone scammed you out of e-money that one could have sold on ebay for 1000$.
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:37:00 - [72] Quote: go find a judge who cares that someone scammed you out of e-money that one could have sold on ebay for 1000$. Trivial. Damage does not need to be easily quantified in US dollars for it to be legally considered damage. That EVE assets can be quantified into US dollars just makes damage and loss that much easier to prove.
Calynus Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.08 04:20:00 - [73] Edited by: Calynus on 08/09/2006 04:24:54 I wrote out a very thoughtful and tactful response to Argenton but the forums bugs ate it. I'm tired of it logging me out everytime I try to post, between posts or even thread reads, and resetting my preferences that I'm not going to bother retyping it. PS - CCP, maybe you need to hire a web developer than can make things like cookies work. They're important, m'kay? Really sloppy job, the code this thing runs on. I don't have problems like this on any other board I frequent.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.08 12:45:00 - [74] Originally by: Gaius Sejanus Quote: go find a judge who cares that someone scammed you out of e-money that one could have sold on ebay for 1000$. Trivial. Damage does not need to be easily quantified in US dollars for it to be legally considered damage. That EVE assets can be quantified into US dollars just makes damage and loss that much easier to prove. Well, if you can prove someone sold that isk on ebay, you might be able ot inform your national version of the IRS and report him for tax evasion. Not sure if the IRS would go through the trouble of demanding RL address and name of characters from CCP, but they could. Even if its not legal to sell isk, I bet that doesn't absolve your obligation to pay taxes over illegally sold isk.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.09.08 13:24:00 - [75] Originally by: Gaius Sejanus Trivial. Damage does not need to be easily quantified in US dollars for it to be legally considered damage. That EVE assets can be quantified into US dollars just makes damage and loss that much easier to prove. Well. Lets say i scam you out of 1000$ er i ment out 10b ISK. Then it turns out im a dev on a player account. I go and delete all your remaining ISK, change the stats of all your ships you board to have 2(1 turret, 1 missile)/1/1 slot layout, and your skill points start to go down, not up. What now? You still going to sue me? Eve assets are like chess assets (board position etc). Or maybe better: monopoly - you have to put time and effort to build possessions. Yet they are virtual and temporal, and only have meaning within the context. And they can easily be modified with a bit of database magic. Every chess position or monopoly situation that may have taken hours to play out can be easily recreated by just putting the pieces on the specific fields, or giving out the money etc to the players. Originally by: Malachon Draco Well, if you can prove someone sold that isk on ebay, you might be able ot inform your national version of the IRS and report him for tax evasion. Not sure if the IRS would go through the trouble of demanding RL address and name of characters from CCP, but they could. Even if its not legal to sell isk, I bet that doesn't absolve your obligation to pay taxes over illegally sold isk. I hear that tax evasion argument brought up every time: 1. Selling ISK is not illegal in every law system i am familiar with. 2. People selling their old books on ebay is no different from them selling ISK on ebay. I dont hear anyone mention tax evasion when it comes to selling stuff like that. Maybe because tax evasion is a totally different topic, and has no inherent connection to selling ISK? Or better said: who says that ISK farmers are not honest citizens who pay their taxes? 3. Its totally off-topic in this discussion. basically an ad-ebayum fallacy ;)
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.09.08 13:28:00 - [76] Originally by: Gaius Sejanus Trivial. Damage does not need to be easily quantified in US dollars for it to be legally considered damage. That EVE assets can be quantified into US dollars just makes damage and loss that much easier to prove. Well. Lets say i scam you out of 1000$ er i ment out 10b ISK. Then it turns out im a dev on a player account. I go and delete all your remaining ISK, change the stats of all your ships you board to have 2(1 turret, 1 missile)/1/1 slot layout, and your skill points start to go down, not up. What now? You still going to sue me? Eve assets are like chess assets (board position etc). Or maybe better: monopoly - you have to put time and effort to build possessions. Yet they are virtual and temporal, and only have meaning within the context. And they can easily be modified with a bit of database magic. Every chess position or monopoly situation that may have taken hours to play out can be easily recreated by just putting the pieces on the specific fields, or giving out the money etc to the players. Originally by: Malachon Draco Well, if you can prove someone sold that isk on ebay, you might be able ot inform your national version of the IRS and report him for tax evasion. Not sure if the IRS would go through the trouble of demanding RL address and name of characters from CCP, but they could. Even if its not legal to sell isk, I bet that doesn't absolve your obligation to pay taxes over illegally sold isk. I hear that tax evasion argument brought up every time: 1. Selling ISK is not illegal in every law system i am familiar with. 2. People selling their old books on ebay is no different from them selling ISK on ebay. I dont hear anyone mention tax evasion when it comes to selling stuff like that. Maybe because tax evasion is a totally different topic, and has no inherent connection to selling ISK? Or better said: who says that ISK farmers are not honest citizens who pay their taxes? 3. Its totally off-topic in this discussion. basically an ad-ebayum fallacy ;) ********* I do agree that the forums are the real criminal here. Whoever coded that mess really is the one who deservers to be sued. Pure griefing ;)
Semblence	Posted - 2006.09.08 23:20:00 - [77] 2) Selling second-hand items is tax-exempt (at least in the UK), since the tax has already been paid. (Value Added Tax in the UK.) VAT applies to goods and services. ISK isn't second-hand, and no tax has been paid on it. So that analogy is no good.
Marodi Alivar	Posted - 2006.09.09 00:26:00 - [78] The internet has no tax in the US. Thus tax evasion isn't a crime if he sold s it on the internet. that's why there isn't any taxes when you get something from ebay, amazon, newegg, for ****, etc.
false persona SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.09.09 02:43:00 - [79] Originally by: Mecinia Lua The sad thing here is it shows a lot about the character of the person behind Angelina Starchild. There should be some way for potential employers to check on these things, someone that scams in a game, most likely will steal from friends, family and employers if given even the slightest chance. Its is the quick and easy road, taken by some in the corporate world. Inevitably it comes back to haunt them in life. I worry greatly about such people, when they go before that God that created all of us and he asks How was your dealings with your fellow man? Were you honest in all your dealings? To those that perputrate such scams, that claim its only a game, what will their answer be to the Creator. How will they fare at that Judgement Bar we all shall pass after this life. How I would tremble were I in their shoes. Tremble with that great fear and dread, knowing I could not look into the face of the Master and tell him Yes, for in that self same moment he would know I was lying and I would be undone. It is a shame that there are no ways to penalize the perpetrator as they do with poddings and ships. Is it not a greater crime to do these kinds of crimes where oen steals or destroys severals work, rather than just one. But do not think you shall get completely away Angelina. In time we all have to face who we are, and what we have become. I use stabs, have been known to gate snipe from 230km and occasionally glare at kittens. I hope my employer never finds out what a cad I am and I fully expect to spend eternity with the rough end of a pineapple stuffed up my rectum. ************************** Last in, First out. **************************
JP Moregain Gallente EVE Reserve Bank	Posted - 2006.09.25 23:51:00 - [80] Originally by: Marodi Alivar The internet has no tax in the US. Thus tax evasion isn't a crime if he sold s it on the internet. that's why there isn't any taxes when you get something from ebay, amazon, newegg, for ****, etc. Wrong... Most people chose not to pay, but the interenet sales are actually subject to state sales taxes. And of course there is no national sales tax in the US. JP JP "In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..."
Marodi Julita	Posted - 2006.09.26 01:35:00 - [81] Well then it is state specific. PA dosen't tax i do believe...

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