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Amarraion Xze0n	Posted - 2006.09.05 05:23:00 - [1] I know its old news but why is it taking CCP solong to fix sumfin which is very ****ED up, i mean is ECM that complexed that its req MONTHS upon MONTHS to fix it!
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.09.05 05:26:00 - [2] CCP, after years and years, why don't you add a Rants forum section? Rants forum is greatly needed, it'd be almost as popular as General Discussion
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.05 05:57:00 - [3] Originally by: Ephemeron CCP, after years and years, why don't you add a Rants forum section? Rants forum is greatly needed, it'd be almost as popular as General Discussion People generally post rants with the intention to get them read, not ignored. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.05 07:29:00 - [4] Stop ranting, fit ECCMs, dont be a sad panda anymore.
Nyssa Dakalsai Cosmic Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.09.05 09:30:00 - [5] Simply because its not a simple problem. Please resize your signature to the limits specified in the forum rules, thanks. -wystler ([email protected])
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 10:38:00 - [6] What's the problem with ECM, or have I missed something? --------------------------------------------------------------------
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.09.05 10:53:00 - [7] If by something you mean the last 6 months, then yes. You missed something.
Audrea Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.09.05 10:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Stop ranting, fit ECCMs, dont be a sad panda anymore. They dont help.. I tried it once, and still got jammed easily. ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE All posts are my personal opinions.
Callistus Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.05 10:58:00 - [9] Originally by: Audrea Originally by: Chewan Mesa Stop ranting, fit ECCMs, dont be a sad panda anymore. They dont help.. I tried it once, and still got jammed easily. Its a chance based system; you tried it once and decided it doesn't help? -------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainfrane]
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.05 11:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Amarraion I know its old news but why is it taking CCP solong to fix sumfin which is very ****ED up, i mean is ECM that complexed that its req MONTHS upon MONTHS to fix it! Unless you've got a perfect solution that nobody will argue with, don't criticize CCP for not doing something. Yes, ECM IS that complex. It's something which is a necessary part of game play (defensive combat), but is also almost impossible to balance perfectly. CCP is aware that ECM has problems, and that boosting ECCM hasn't solved all of it. But unless you have something to contribute, don't criticize CCP for not "fixing it". Try studying game design and perhaps you'll understand. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.05 11:24:00 - [11] Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Originally by: Amarraion I know its old news but why is it taking CCP solong to fix sumfin which is very ****ED up, i mean is ECM that complexed that its req MONTHS upon MONTHS to fix it! Unless you've got a perfect solution that nobody will argue with, don't criticize CCP for not doing something. Yes, ECM IS that complex. It's something which is a necessary part of game play (defensive combat), but is also almost impossible to balance perfectly. CCP is aware that ECM has problems, and that boosting ECCM hasn't solved all of it. But unless you have something to contribute, don't criticize CCP for not "fixing it". Try studying game design and perhaps you'll understand. Very true. All the people screaming "DO SOMETHING" might want to suggest a good solution that works for everybody instead. "something" is not a solution. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
XGS Crimson	Posted - 2006.09.05 11:33:00 - [12] ecm goes against the laws of this game.... its a calculation based game filled with 1s and 0s and then u throw a 2 in there and its all buggerd. ecm has no way of being blocked its just completly random
tookar Amarr Krookid	Posted - 2006.09.05 11:48:00 - [13] Make ecm cycles 10 secs and use half the cap and affect high slot modules only .
XGS Crimson	Posted - 2006.09.05 11:52:00 - [14] Originally by: tookar Make ecm cycles 10 secs and use half the cap and affect high slot modules only . make ecm a high slot module itself? would make things better although u would need to edit all the caldari ships... they need a nerf... (hehe i just sparked off sumthing bad!)
tookar Amarr Krookid	Posted - 2006.09.05 11:54:00 - [15] IMO the owrst thing about ecm is that an opponent can always run if he starts losing as you cant keep him scrammed i think it should affect high slot modules only but still take a medslot as it is a caldari racial thing . Make each succesfull ecm jam disable 3 turrets for ten or 20 secs instead of getting a free warpout they get a weapon advantage just like any other ewar in the game .
XGS Crimson	Posted - 2006.09.05 11:58:00 - [16] Originally by: tookar IMO the owrst thing about ecm is that an opponent can always run if he starts losing as you cant keep him scrammed i think it should affect high slot modules only but still take a medslot as it is a caldari racial thing . Make each succesfull ecm jam disable 3 turrets for ten or 20 secs instead of getting a free warpout they get a weapon advantage just like any other ewar in the game . hmm ecm is far to powerful, i have one in my thorax pvp setup. I got 6 runs in a row last night against a ferox using multispecteral.... now thats a whole 2 mins of not firing which is longer than most combat lasts and i only used one... for somthing that uses chance its far too powerful. if they made it effect modules rather than the actual ship it would make it more reasonable such as only shutting down 2 modules or so, or maybe even make it a break lock module that breaks the lock but doesnt prevent relock.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:02:00 - [17] Revert to the old system where you needed Blah points to permajam a BS. Hell, if you want, why not make it so that if you dont quite get a permajam, their sensor strength / range is affected? --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. Loot!
Blind Man Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:03:00 - [18] anything chance based in eve = very bad SignatureTemporarily Out Of Order
Audrea Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Callistus Originally by: Audrea Originally by: Chewan Mesa Stop ranting, fit ECCMs, dont be a sad panda anymore. They dont help.. I tried it once, and still got jammed easily. Its a chance based system; you tried it once and decided it doesn't help? Yes. Take a scorp for example with 8 jammers. It activates first one - no jam? second one. still no jam? third one, still not? roll the dice again.. I am not expert to statistical calculations, but the more you roll the dice, the better chance you get jam. Lets say I am in a HAC, with sensor strength of 15. assuming I fit ECCM, it would be 22 or 23. Now, multispec T2 has strength of 4.8 (befor skill is applied). Now lets say you got caldari BS lvl4, which means 20% stronger, equals 5.76, now add in lvl4 at the skill Signal Dispression. Now that would be 6.9 for each multispec! Thats 1/3 chance to jam a HAC even with ECCM module! now multiply it by 8: 8*(1/3)=2.5, which is over 1 and means parmajam :P the high number also means higher strength (BS sized) ships will also be parmajammed. ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE All posts are my personal opinions.
NIkis	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:41:00 - [20] Edited by: NIkis on 05/09/2006 12:46:02 Originally by: Audrea Originally by: Callistus Originally by: Audrea Originally by: Chewan Mesa Stop ranting, fit ECCMs, dont be a sad panda anymore. They dont help.. I tried it once, and still got jammed easily. Its a chance based system; you tried it once and decided it doesn't help? Yes. Take a scorp for example with 8 jammers. It activates first one - no jam? second one. still no jam? third one, still not? roll the dice again.. I am not expert to statistical calculations, but the more you roll the dice, the better chance you get jam. Lets say I am in a HAC, with sensor strength of 15. assuming I fit ECCM, it would be 22 or 23. Now, multispec T2 has strength of 4.8 (befor skill is applied). Now lets say you got caldari BS lvl4, which means 20% stronger, equals 5.76, now add in lvl4 at the skill Signal Dispression. Now that would be 6.9 for each multispec! Thats 1/3 chance to jam a HAC even with ECCM module! now multiply it by 8: 8(1/3)=2.5, which is over 1 and means parmajam :P the high number also means higher strength (BS sized) ships will also be parmajammed. You assume your opponent using multiple ECMs and yet you pretend to be able to counter that with a single ECCM module ? am i the only one seeing the faulty logic in this ? Also your HAC might have a low sensor strength but that is because its a type of cruiser geared towards dealing a punch .. why not run the comparison against a recon cruiser ? And probability laws dont work simple like 81/3. There is always a chance that all 8 attempts will fail. I think the presence of a random element is very welcome in a game (as opposed to fixed spawns and fixed times and whatever else getting abused by campers and such), even though I rarely use ECM. To sum it up.. stop ranting, fit ECCMs if you fear ECM so much. Or use a different ship. Or jam the jammer. Or whatever other course of action there may be. IMO there's nothing 'to fix' about ECM.. it's allright as it is.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:44:00 - [21] i thought it was fixed with eccm. dunno what your ranting on about tbh. i cant see it changing now.
Trev Kachanov Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:51:00 - [22] Originally by: tookar IMO the owrst thing about ecm is that an opponent can always run if he starts losing as you cant keep him scrammed i think it should affect high slot modules only but still take a medslot as it is a caldari racial thing . Make each succesfull ecm jam disable 3 turrets for ten or 20 secs instead of getting a free warpout they get a weapon advantage just like any other ewar in the game . Interdictor.... people dont know how vital these things are
NIkis	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Trev Kachanov Interdictor.... people dont know how vital these things are Some people dont know many things, but would rather rant than learn.
Nahia Senne Fortunis Novum Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:54:00 - [24] Fixing ECM nonsense is easy. Just make it have the same effect as burst ECM module! Simple solution and more in line with how effective other ewar modules are. To all whiners who whine about losing their IWIN button, die you incompetent noobs
Minroct Duprect	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Audrea Originally by: Callistus Originally by: Audrea Originally by: Chewan Mesa Stop ranting, fit ECCMs, dont be a sad panda anymore. They dont help.. I tried it once, and still got jammed easily. Its a chance based system; you tried it once and decided it doesn't help? Yes. Take a scorp for example with 8 jammers. It activates first one - no jam? second one. still no jam? third one, still not? roll the dice again.. I am not expert to statistical calculations, but the more you roll the dice, the better chance you get jam. Lets say I am in a HAC, with sensor strength of 15. assuming I fit ECCM, it would be 22 or 23. Now, multispec T2 has strength of 4.8 (befor skill is applied). Now lets say you got caldari BS lvl4, which means 20% stronger, equals 5.76, now add in lvl4 at the skill Signal Dispression. Now that would be 6.9 for each multispec! Thats 1/3 chance to jam a HAC even with ECCM module! now multiply it by 8: 8*(1/3)=2.5, which is over 1 and means parmajam :P the high number also means higher strength (BS sized) ships will also be parmajammed. I haven't bothered checking the rest of your maths - but the last bit is definately wrong. If you are correct and the hac has a 1/3 chance to be jammed (33%) then with multiple jammers the effects are multiplied i.e. HAC will not be jammed With 1 jammer - 2/3 = 66% With 2 jammers - 4/9 = 44% With 3 jammers - 8/27 = 30% With 4 jammers - 16/81 = 20% So the chances are that your example hac using eccm will be jammed 80% of the time using 4 jammers - there is no such thing as permajam - it will never reach 100%
NIkis	Posted - 2006.09.05 13:01:00 - [26] Originally by: Nahia Senne Fixing ECM nonsense is easy. Just make it have the same effect as burst ECM module! Simple solution and more in line with how effective other ewar modules are. To all whiners who whine about losing their IWIN button, die you incompetent noobs And may i ask who would fit ecm then, when burst doing the same, and with area of effect ? (enough range to counter most warp jammers too) What i see is whiners losing because they cant use their ships properly.
NIkis	Posted - 2006.09.05 13:03:00 - [27] Edited by: NIkis on 05/09/2006 13:04:54 Edited by: NIkis on 05/09/2006 13:03:11 Quote: I haven't bothered checking the rest of your maths - but the last bit is definately wrong. If you are correct and the hac has a 1/3 chance to be jammed (33%) then with multiple jammers the effects are multiplied i.e. HAC will not be jammed With 1 jammer - 2/3 = 66% With 2 jammers - 4/9 = 44% With 3 jammers - 8/27 = 30% With 4 jammers - 16/81 = 20% So the chances are that your example hac using eccm will be jammed 80% of the time using 4 jammers - there is no such thing as permajam - it will never reach 100% thanks for clearing the math part :) that is HAC using ONE ECCM against scorp using FOUR ECM to put things in perspective
Audrea Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.09.05 13:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Minroct Duprect Originally by: Audrea Originally by: Callistus Originally by: Audrea Originally by: Chewan Mesa Stop ranting, fit ECCMs, dont be a sad panda anymore. They dont help.. I tried it once, and still got jammed easily. Its a chance based system; you tried it once and decided it doesn't help? Yes. Take a scorp for example with 8 jammers. It activates first one - no jam? second one. still no jam? third one, still not? roll the dice again.. I am not expert to statistical calculations, but the more you roll the dice, the better chance you get jam. Lets say I am in a HAC, with sensor strength of 15. assuming I fit ECCM, it would be 22 or 23. Now, multispec T2 has strength of 4.8 (befor skill is applied). Now lets say you got caldari BS lvl4, which means 20% stronger, equals 5.76, now add in lvl4 at the skill Signal Dispression. Now that would be 6.9 for each multispec! Thats 1/3 chance to jam a HAC even with ECCM module! now multiply it by 8: 8*(1/3)=2.5, which is over 1 and means parmajam :P the high number also means higher strength (BS sized) ships will also be parmajammed. I haven't bothered checking the rest of your maths - but the last bit is definately wrong. If you are correct and the hac has a 1/3 chance to be jammed (33%) then with multiple jammers the effects are multiplied i.e. HAC will not be jammed With 1 jammer - 2/3 = 66% With 2 jammers - 4/9 = 44% With 3 jammers - 8/27 = 30% With 4 jammers - 16/81 = 20% So the chances are that your example hac using eccm will be jammed 80% of the time using 4 jammers - there is no such thing as permajam - it will never reach 100% I believe you made a common calculation mistake: What you did is multiply 2/3 by 2/3. But this (IIRC) represents the case of throwing cubes, and the chance to get 6/6 is 1/6 mutiplied by 1/6 which emans 1/36 (AND case) This is not the case with jammers. With jammers each jammer gives a chance of its own (OR case), which means we sum the chances of each jammer and dont multiply them. Hence the chances are: 2/3+2/3=4/3= 133% chance for a jam. I might be wrong.. been over year since I studied basic combinatorics... But next year I should have the deep course, so will see ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE All posts are my personal opinions.
Nahia Senne Fortunis Novum Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.05 13:18:00 - [29] Originally by: NIkis And may i ask who would fit ecm then, when burst doing the same, and with area of effect ? (enough range to counter most warp jammers too) What i see is whiners losing because they cant use their ships properly. May i point out that having the same effect on a target does not equate to both modules having AOE effect? ^^
Isabella Inari Caldari Pirates of hORK	Posted - 2006.09.05 13:29:00 - [30] I'm an ECM pilot and I always keep my calculator next to me when I PVP. The formula for chance to escape/fail a jam is: [(target sensor strength-jam strength)/target sensor strength]^(number of ecm modules activated)=chance of target escaping So therefore if one were to try to jam a caracal (strength 15) with 4 gravimetric jammers (T1 spatials, strength 6) the chance of failure is: [(15-6)/15]^4= (9/15)^4= (3/5)^4= 12.96% However to try to jam say a ferox (19) with 4 multispecs (4) the chance of fail would be: [(19-4)/19]^4= (15/19)^4= 0.388 (3dp) OR 38.8% A sizeable chance of failing. Personally I don't feel ECM is overpowered, as there is; 1) usually a chance of failing (unless jam strength>=target strength, in the case of skilled Rook/Falcon pilot), 2) the ECM ship is deliberately weak offensively and defensively and will be called primary, 3) ECCM modules boost chance of failing jam SIGNIFICANTLY and that 4) FoF missiles/Drone carriers will still do damage after being jammed. I say leave it as it is. I'm hot and you know it.

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