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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
952
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Posted - 2014.12.11 18:03:35 -
[31] - Quote
Quite frankly, we invaded them to fulfill the obligations of Reclaiming.
While there were reports of Jovian support of Matari insurgents prior to the Great Rebellion, those would hardly be the reason for our invasion. I have said before, and I will say again, we are not a passive nation that must invent flimsy "justifications" or claims of "simply defending ourselves" for war. We did not invade because of the murder of a few priests or the destruction of the Impervious or anything else like that.
The Amarr-Jove War started because it is our duty to Reclaim the universe under God. We failed in that, because we allowed our pride to blind us and traitors to lead us, and this is something we can feel only great shame for as we have failed both God and the Jovian people. |
Deitra Vess
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
134
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Posted - 2014.12.11 18:18:13 -
[32] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote: Now, I don't personally believe your god exists, but if he does, by word of your scriptures he's omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. By definition, all things happen according to his will, and contrariwise nothing happens that he does not will. Therefore, if your god does truly exist, he willed Vak'Atioth and the events both leading to and happening as a consequence of it - he willed the death of the High Priests, he willed the crushing defeat at Vak'Atioth and he willed the end of the Minmatar occupation and the birth of the Republic. If that is true, the Jove were just as much his agents in this as anyone else. Unwittingly or otherwise, they delivered a message from your god. I'm not a believer in your god so I can't tell you what it might be, but if I had to guess it'd be something about hubris and pride going before a fall.
So under your logic the Republic should be left alone due to their own god willing it so? If I'm thinking what you mean on that, I like the way you think.... |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4299
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 18:25:33 -
[33] - Quote
I just wanted to say that I find Samira's directness and honesty refreshing. I am totally behind the idea of a justified war and I hate having to pretend to be uncomfortable about the fact that we Carpe'd the Diem in getting that fleet to Home back in the day.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5105
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Posted - 2014.12.11 18:38:07 -
[34] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:So under your logic the Republic should be left alone due to their own god willing it so? If I'm thinking what you mean on that, I like the way you think.... God is, if you believe the Amarr, all-powerful, all-knowing and present everywhere at all times simultaneously - in every place at every moment.
If God had desired the Republic to stay under the rule of the Amarr, it would be so. If God desired the Republic fall back under the rule of the Amarr, this too would be so. That neither happened should speak for itself.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
953
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 18:51:32 -
[35] - Quote
God is all-powerful.
Man is not.
Our failure to do something is not an indication of God's will, it is an indication of our own failure in carrying it out. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5106
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Posted - 2014.12.11 19:13:27 -
[36] - Quote
God doesn't need ****-all from people. He's all-powerful. He can do whatever he damn well pleases and he sure as hell doesn't need any human's help to do anything.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
953
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 19:16:27 -
[37] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:God doesn't need ****-all from people. He's all-powerful. He can do whatever he damn well pleases and he sure as hell doesn't need any human's help to do anything.
No, He doesn't.
But just because you can do your child's homework, does that mean you should do it for them? Children have to be given the opportunity to develop on their own, with your support and guidance but not with you doing everything for them just because you can. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5106
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Posted - 2014.12.11 19:44:10 -
[38] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:No, He doesn't.
But just because you can do your child's homework, does that mean you should do it for them? Children have to be given the opportunity to develop on their own, with your support and guidance but not with you doing everything for them just because you can. It's funny that you people attach parental metaphors to the Amarr Empire and God when it so pleases you but conveniently forget that children are not beholden to their parents their entire lives, that parents can be and often are cruel, proud, ignorant, blinkered, abusive, more concerned with their own legacy than their child's wellbeing or a combination of all of the above and most importantly that a parent is, ultimately, on the same physical and existential level as their child - just older.
By that standard, God's at the very best an absentee father and at worst a child molester.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4301
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 19:49:04 -
[39] - Quote
Andreus, I hear what you're saying, but I have to ask what you think this discussion will achieve? Samira is a believer, she has Faith in God and she isn't going to abandon that faith because you pick holes in a metaphor she used to describe the concept of Free Will in Humans as it applies to what she sees as God's Plan.
If this is just about being mean to someone because you don't like their religion, that's different, but let's not pretend you're really having a discussion here. Even if it's about trying to point out that someone's religion causes them to do very harmful and unpleasant things to people in what is nominally 'their own good' you still aren't going to shake Samira's belief in the Reclaiming, because it isn't rooted in something that can be disproven with facts.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
954
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 19:50:10 -
[40] - Quote
Children are beholden to their family their entire lives in the Empire.
Maybe that is not the case in the Federation, but it is here.
As for your opinion of God, you'll believe what you wish regardless of what I say. |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4301
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 19:54:03 -
[41] - Quote
Here's a question for one of the Faithful, though. Why do you believe the fleet commander's at Vak'Aktioth committed treason? Given that they found themselves in a tactical situation that presented them with the choice of withdrawing the fleet, leaving their objectives incomplete or losing the fleet, leaving their objectives incomplete, why do you believe the only sane strategic choice, that of at least preserving some lives and materiel, was treason?
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
955
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 19:57:35 -
[42] - Quote
Because the commander of the fleet, whose name I will not say, had conspired with the Jove. That kind of treason. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4305
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 20:06:24 -
[43] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Because the commander of the fleet, whose name I will not say, had conspired with the Jove. That kind of treason.
Oh! Treasony treason! That kind. Fair enough.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Deitra Vess
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
137
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 20:32:00 -
[44] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:God doesn't need ****-all from people. He's all-powerful. He can do whatever he damn well pleases and he sure as hell doesn't need any human's help to do anything. No, He doesn't. But just because you can do your child's homework, does that mean you should do it for them? Children have to be given the opportunity to develop on their own, with your support and guidance but not with you doing everything for them just because you can.
But If we were considered gods children, wouldn't he step in to help bring us to "the right path" and thus make it so that nothing that did happen happen? Or is it more like testing the faithful? |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
961
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 20:50:41 -
[45] - Quote
He is, but he's doing it through his Chosen. His Chosen, just like the Unborn, have need to grow and develop, and they cannot do that if God is doing their work for them. The Unborn must learn to love God again, and the Chosen must learn how to be teachers, guides, and leaders.
To put it in a way more understandable for nonbelievers: God delegates.
God could just wave a figurative hand and have everyone worship Him again. But that teaches nothing, and it takes away all potential for growth from His creations. This is why Amarr must also avoid falling to the temptation of TCMCs, for they deny that same potential for growth. Like God, we have the capability to easily force all to worship Him. And like God, we should refrain from taking this easy path because it does not truly teach anyone. |
Evi Polevhia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
665
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 21:15:55 -
[46] - Quote
Cannot God just also wave a hand and have us all taught exactly what we need to rather than have us do it slowly, imperfectly, and incompletely? |
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
279
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Posted - 2014.12.11 21:17:12 -
[47] - Quote
The interpretation of apparent setbacks or defeats for God and his people that Samira Kernher has provided is a common interpretation and may even be the mainstream interpretation. But it is not the only interpretation.
I believe that God does foreordain everything, including the treachery of Vak'Atioth. What people seem to consistently misunderstand is that God may be more glorified by a short term defeat that makes his long term victory all the more magnificent than by a mere immediate victory. A short term defeat for his people may even occur when they have obeyed God's own commandments in every way GÇö that is the difference between the revealed will of God and the hidden will of God. God will be glorified in the end and he has no obligation to advance his Chosen people at every moment of every day; we Chosen can be confident, though, that even the hidden will of God is not at variance with God's divine attributes of perfect justice, perfect goodness, and so on, and thus we can be confident of our ultimate victory.
Note that my interpretation does not require humans to have free will and does not require that "potential growth" be a positive moral value. |
Jukko Riis
State War Academy Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2014.12.11 21:20:44 -
[48] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:
Note that my interpretation does not require humans to have free will and does not require that "potential growth" be a positive moral value.
If I have no free will, how can I be morally culpable for my actions? |
Tyrel Toov
Eplison Enterprises
157
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 21:25:42 -
[49] - Quote
Nauplius wrote: Note that my interpretation does not require humans to have free will and does not require that "potential growth" be a positive moral value.
Not to worry, Naups. We long since stopped expecting positive moral values out of you. You needn't worry about clearing that up. Your evil reputation remains intact.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
963
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 21:28:48 -
[50] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Cannot God just also wave a hand and have us all taught exactly what we need to rather than have us do it slowly, imperfectly, and incompletely?
Read my previous posts.
Though I don't expect a Sansha supporter to understand it. You prefer to deny the potential for growth and the wisdom obtained from overcoming hardship. |
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Deitra Vess
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
137
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 23:49:51 -
[51] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:He is, but he's doing it through his Chosen. His Chosen, just like the Unborn, have need to grow and develop, and they cannot do that if God is doing their work for them. The Unborn must learn to love God again, and the Chosen must learn how to be teachers, guides, and leaders.
To put it in a way more understandable for nonbelievers: God delegates.
God could just wave a figurative hand and have everyone worship Him again. But that teaches nothing, and it takes away all potential for growth from His creations. This is why Amarr must also avoid falling to the temptation of TCMCs, for they deny that same potential for growth. Like God, we have the capability to easily force all to worship Him. And like God, we should refrain from taking this easy path because it does not truly teach anyone.
I guess don't take this the wrong way, but does he not value his creations? I would think something he took pride in he wouldn't subjugate to trials, slavery, mass genocide of a planet? I mean maybe that's just the methods man created but even still..... Isn't that a little much? While yes he could teach whatever lesson without any effort but chooses to have us learn for ourselves, but isn't there some limit to it? Sorry, It just doesn't make that much sense to me. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
969
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 00:33:09 -
[52] - Quote
Just because you value something doesn't mean you can or should always be soft to it. Do you not discipline your child if they have done wrong? Do you not make your friend go through rehab if they're an addict? It is better to treat someone as they need, than to treat them as they want. Sometimes hurting someone is the only way to make them become a better person.
Trials are good. Servitude is good. We learn from these things, we become stronger and wiser for having endured them. The road to Heaven is paved with tribulation. God values most those who prove that they are worthy of being valued.
There are limits, of course. But it is up us to discover those limits, and it is up to us to resist the temptation to cross them when they are found. God will guide us and give us strength, but we have to first choose to take His hand. |
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
279
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 02:47:51 -
[53] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote: I guess don't take this the wrong way, but does he not value his creations?
No. God is infinity of every emotion, including cruelty and wrath, and he has created certain beings upon whom he directs those two emotions. I believe that I have made abundantly clear in my preaching just who those beings are.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5116
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Posted - 2014.12.12 02:51:17 -
[54] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Normal irrelevant Nauplius things Nobody cares. Get out of the thread.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
412
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 03:16:10 -
[55] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Because the commander of the fleet, whose name I will not say, had conspired with the Jove. That kind of treason.
There is frail historical evidence at best to support this claim, miss Kernher. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
232
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Posted - 2014.12.12 03:22:11 -
[56] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Just because you value something doesn't mean you can or should always be soft to it. Do you not discipline your child if they have done wrong? Do you not make your friend go through rehab if they're an addict? It is better to treat someone as they need, than to treat them as they want. Sometimes hurting someone is the only way to make them become a better person.
Trials are good. Servitude is good. We learn from these things, we become stronger and wiser for having endured them. The road to Heaven is paved with tribulation. God values most those who prove that they are worthy of being valued.
There are limits, of course. But it is up us to discover those limits, and it is up to us to resist the temptation to cross them when they are found. God will guide us and give us strength, He will help us know right from wrong, but we have to first choose to take His hand.
In other words, God embodies tough love.
...Fair enough, I guess. I can agree with His style of parenthood. Us Matari are in the habit of making our children toil, experience hardship and face challenges so that they may grow to be mature adults, able to adapt and survive in whatever situation we find ourselves in, and to always hold an unyielding core of values even in the face of duress (whether it works is another matter altogether). If I disagree with how your God does His work, I would make myself a hypocrite.
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Nauplius wrote:Normal irrelevant Nauplius things Nobody cares. Get out of the thread.
But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with.
- Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5117
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Posted - 2014.12.12 03:26:25 -
[57] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with. You're a very observant fellow! Given that keen insight of yours, would you like to guess how high this factoid rates on my "give a damn" scale?
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Tyrel Toov
Eplison Enterprises
160
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 03:31:15 -
[58] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote: But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with.
not anymore
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
232
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Posted - 2014.12.12 04:02:59 -
[59] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with. You're a very observant fellow! Given that keen insight of yours, would you like to guess how high this factoid rates on my "give a damn" scale?
I say at the 0 mark.
- Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
972
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 04:08:42 -
[60] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Because the commander of the fleet, whose name I will not say, had conspired with the Jove. That kind of treason. There is frail historical evidence at best to support this claim, miss Kernher.
His Holiness the late Heideran VII, may he be at peace with God in Heaven, speaks rather candidly about the traitor's actions in the Pax Amarria. |
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