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God has destroyed the Jove. How just is our God!

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Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 276	Posted - 2014.12.09 17:40:08 - [1] - Quote First, they stopped speaking to us, but for a final and not-entirely reassuring report following a Sansha invasion. Their ships GÇö once an occasional sight in New Eden GÇö have vanished; their offices at CONCORD HQ in Yulai, empty. Then, a bright star appeared just outside their space, a star defying all laws of science and somehow visible to all the cluster at once. Now, their entire stargate system ceases reporting. This is the meaning of the bright star, the star that defied all laws of science GÇö God has called the Jove to Judgement. The verdict? Guilty. Guilty of the treachery of Vak'Atioth; guilty of the crimes of transhumanism and apotheosis GÇö trying to become as gods. The sentence? Eternity in hell. Mark well, Empyreans GÇö this shall be your fate and the fate of all who either resist the Chosen of God or seek to become like gods. P. S. Minmatar GÇö you're probably next.
Deitra Vess Scope Works The Blacklist. 125	Posted - 2014.12.09 17:51:17 - [2] - Quote Wouldn't the Caldari be next? They are closest if I'm not mistaken. And how is it treachery if they were attacked by the Amar Empire at Vak'Atioth? Wouldn't that make the Amar empire the treacherous ones?
Xindi Kraid Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 852	Posted - 2014.12.09 17:53:48 - [3] - Quote See, the last non-insane Amarr I talked to said Vok'Aitoth was God's punishment for the Empire's hubris in thinking they could do no wrong.
Deitra Vess Scope Works The Blacklist. 125	Posted - 2014.12.09 17:54:51 - [4] - Quote At least that makes sense for the most part...
Ritual Sacrifice Church of The Crimson Saviour 10	Posted - 2014.12.09 17:56:56 - [5] - Quote It Begins.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 944	Posted - 2014.12.09 18:17:51 - [6] - Quote Deitra Vess wrote: Wouldn't the Caldari be next? They are closest if I'm not mistaken. And how is it treachery if they were attacked by the Amar Empire at Vak'Atioth? Wouldn't that make the Amar empire the treacherous ones? Neither side was treacherous, because neither side had established treaties with the other. It was a declaration of war. We were quite open and honest about our intentions. In fact, the only treachery that happened was from our own fleet commanders during the battle. As far as what happened to the Jove... well, I would not wish to delight in their destruction, if that is what has occurred. If it is, then we can only feel shame for our failure in Reclaiming them into God's light prior to their end.
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 1430	Posted - 2014.12.09 18:22:16 - [7] - Quote Ritual Sacrifice wrote: It Begins. Would that be the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end? Or the beginning of the beginning of the end or the beginning of the end of the beginning, and if so how does it end? Think thats covered everything. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Lunarisse Aspenstar Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 240	Posted - 2014.12.09 18:27:22 - [8] - Quote Nauplius wrote: First, they stopped speaking to us, but for a final and not-entirely reassuring report following a Sansha invasion. Their ships GÇö once an occasional sight in New Eden GÇö have vanished; their offices at CONCORD HQ in Yulai, empty. Then, a bright star appeared just outside their space, a star defying all laws of science and somehow visible to all the cluster at once. Now, their entire stargate system ceases reporting. This is the meaning of the bright star, the star that defied all laws of science GÇö God has called the Jove to Judgement. Well, much as it pains me to say it, even a stopped clock might be right twice a day. God's decision to elect vengeance and judgment is on his time scale not Ours, to those who point out Vak-Atioth was years ago. All the more reason not to be complacent with the saving of souls. Samira Kernher wrote: As far as what happened to the Jove... well, I would not wish to delight in their destruction, if that is what has occurred. If it is, then we can only feel shame for our failure in Reclaiming them into God's light prior to their end. This is the true tragedy, if the Jove are indeed gone.
Evi Polevhia Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 661	Posted - 2014.12.09 18:36:19 - [9] - Quote This is why the Empire must be destroyed!Oh wait, wrong thread.
Eojek Starlight Moly 17	Posted - 2014.12.09 18:37:02 - [10] - Quote Dibs on the derilict Jovian mothership.
Ashlar Vellum 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 128	Posted - 2014.12.09 20:39:26 - [11] - Quote Deitra Vess wrote: Wouldn't the Caldari be next? They are closest if I'm not mistaken. And how is it treachery if they were attacked by the Amar Empire at Vak'Atioth? Wouldn't that make the Amar empire the treacherous ones? The pale ones did start it all in the first place, so no it doesn't. Xindi Kraid wrote: See, the last non-insane Amarr I talked to said Vok'Aitoth was God's punishment for the Empire's hubris in thinking they could do no wrong. It would be interesting to know who are those non-insane Amarr are.
Erica Dusette Isogen 5 22469	Posted - 2014.12.09 20:55:32 - [12] - Quote This whole thing smelled very apocalyptic. I was wondering when you'd chime in, Mr Nauplius. Seems it's made you happy though, and I guess that's a good thing. The girls were telling me you've been busy practicing the noble art of smiling. Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel My Wormhole Pron \| The Endgame \| Wormhole Diary
Deitra Vess Scope Works The Blacklist. 126	Posted - 2014.12.09 21:22:14 - [13] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Deitra Vess wrote: Wouldn't the Caldari be next? They are closest if I'm not mistaken. And how is it treachery if they were attacked by the Amar Empire at Vak'Atioth? Wouldn't that make the Amar empire the treacherous ones? The pale ones did start it all in the first place, so no it doesn't. Who declared war on who?
Tyrel Toov Eplison Enterprises 139	Posted - 2014.12.09 21:25:10 - [14] - Quote Something tells me they're not so much destroyed as keeping quite because so many capsules are sitting on their doorstep. May be the "If we keep quiet, maybe they'll think nobody's home and go away" trick. I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 4296	Posted - 2014.12.09 22:17:34 - [15] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: In fact, the only treachery that happened was from our own fleet commanders during the battle. "Never Reinforce Defeat" - Battlesage #648 "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..."
Luna Hanaya Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2014.12.09 23:00:51 - [16] - Quote Or maybe you are next, Mr. Nauplius? (( If you are a roleplayer, or want to learn about roleplay, please join "*Out of Character" and "Intergalactic Summit*" channels in game, Lets show CCP that there are many roleplayers still here, and we want more Live Events!! ))
DeadRow Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 298	Posted - 2014.12.10 01:11:28 - [17] - Quote I bet it was Revan. ~Hikari
Gwen Ikiryo Alexylva Paradox Low-Class 411	Posted - 2014.12.10 06:22:31 - [18] - Quote If anything, I think the present events should call into question the fact that they ever lived in those regions to begin with.
Taraki Orani BERSA Shipping Trading and Mining Co. 15	Posted - 2014.12.10 06:51:23 - [19] - Quote I can definitaley see that Ignorance is bliss.. Go on kiddo.. you are in the right(!) way
Ashlar Vellum 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 128	Posted - 2014.12.10 11:55:49 - [20] - Quote Deitra Vess wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: Deitra Vess wrote: Wouldn't the Caldari be next? They are closest if I'm not mistaken. And how is it treachery if they were attacked by the Amar Empire at Vak'Atioth? Wouldn't that make the Amar empire the treacherous ones? The pale ones did start it all in the first place, so no it doesn't. Who declared war on who? Whose pale derrieres got caught near the same restricted area where amarr high priests were murdered?
Odelya d'Hanguest ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere 577	Posted - 2014.12.10 13:34:43 - [21] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: In fact, the only treachery that happened was from our own fleet commanders during the battle. The treachery continues to this day. The apathetic accept of loss and defeat is unacceptable.
Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 279	Posted - 2014.12.10 14:26:59 - [22] - Quote I am somewhat surprised that a few people apparently suspect that the Jove ever existed or at least didn't exist in the space that most people thought they lived in. I am not really able to canvas the entire historical record from where I set at this time; however, consider that before the treachery of Vak'Atioth, the Jove stargate system was actually connected to everyone else's and that contacts with Jove ships and Jove personnel in what we now call Empire space was GÇö while not frequent GÇö not a singular cause for shock and amazement, either. When the Amarr Empire launched its mercy fleet for the Reclaiming of the Jove, it wasn't just guessing at their location but knew where they were. Now, after the treachery of Vak'Atioth, the Jove retreated from Geminate and whatever else they held in surrounding regions and severed their publicly reported stargates behind them. Still, Jove contact with the rest of the cluster remained at a non-zero level for some time through CONCORD, Jove-owned corporations, occasional sightings of ships, the odd joint project, and reporting of public station, stargate, and sovereignty data. Their all-but-total silence is a fairly recent phenomena GÇö which supports my assertion that God has destroyed them recently GÇö there is no need to get conspiratorial as to their historical existence and location.
Gwen Ikiryo Alexylva Paradox Low-Class 411	Posted - 2014.12.10 16:35:29 - [23] - Quote I will assume you are addressing my comment, Nauplius. I assure you, I am well aware of the history of the Jovian Empire in terms of it's interactions with the rest of the cluster, and I am certain they maintained at least some amount of infrastructure in and around what we have considered to be the extent of their sovereign space. However, if we consider some long-established facts: - No fleet of remotely appropriate size for an Empire of their size, age and technological development has ever been observed in New Eden. - Almost no one has been permitted access into Jovian Space proper, even during their more active period. - They are the creators of the Capsule, and thus were originally likely able to manipulate it's perceptions in a number of ways (for example, station and Gate data, etc) Along with some fairly new ones: - The generation of wormholes as a means of very long-range transport is seemingly possible, and, indeed, not much more advanced than what we are currently capable of. - There is fair evidence of connection between the Jovians and Sleepers. - Judging by the recent astrological events, there may be Sleeper settlements a mere handful of stars away from the established Jovian regions, and perhaps whole areas of the star cluster we are unaware of, but they surely would have been. We must, though it may indeed be a little conspiratorial, consider the notion that the area of space we have thought to be the Jovian heartland may have been a mere backwater to them, or perhaps something occupied and closed off not out of isolationism, but perhaps a simple desire to prevent us from crossing over to the other side - To the source of the current Bright Star, and, as it seems, what we are now calling Thera.
Deitra Vess Scope Works 128	Posted - 2014.12.10 16:39:21 - [24] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Deitra Vess wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: Deitra Vess wrote: Wouldn't the Caldari be next? They are closest if I'm not mistaken. And how is it treachery if they were attacked by the Amar Empire at Vak'Atioth? Wouldn't that make the Amar empire the treacherous ones? The pale ones did start it all in the first place, so no it doesn't. Who declared war on who? Whose pale derrieres got caught near the same restricted area where amarr high priests were murdered? Who amassed a fleet and flew it out of their own empire to conquer who? And as far as them disappearing, the Jove being in a weakened state and Capsuleers seeming to be encroaching their borders, would it be surprising if they are fearful of another Battle of Val'Atioth happening and thus are trying to avoid it?
VTyx Soul MASS A DEATH Mordus Angels 24	Posted - 2014.12.10 16:40:25 - [25] - Quote They destroyed there gates long ago, ccp have only just removed the links
Tyrel Toov Eplison Enterprises 153	Posted - 2014.12.10 18:00:42 - [26] - Quote VTyx Soul wrote: They destroyed there gates long ago, ccp have only just removed the links Caldari Corn Paste dosen't have that authority.... CONCORD might though. I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Ashlar Vellum 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 128	Posted - 2014.12.11 05:17:46 - [27] - Quote Deitra Vess wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: Deitra Vess wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: Deitra Vess wrote: Wouldn't the Caldari be next? They are closest if I'm not mistaken. And how is it treachery if they were attacked by the Amar Empire at Vak'Atioth? Wouldn't that make the Amar empire the treacherous ones? The pale ones did start it all in the first place, so no it doesn't. Who declared war on who? Whose pale derrieres got caught near the same restricted area where amarr high priests were murdered? Who amassed a fleet and flew it out of their own empire to conquer who? If someone didn't get caught in restricted area near a mass murder there wouldn't be any kind of fleet at all.
Caviar Liberta Moira. Villore Accords 777	Posted - 2014.12.11 13:00:22 - [28] - Quote appears and is seen slapping a display Damn these quarters and this display. Only 1 channel and it has to be the Amarr Comedy Channel.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 4298	Posted - 2014.12.11 17:12:04 - [29] - Quote You get used to the Amarr Comedy Network after awhile. It's the most careful humour in the Cluster. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..."
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5105	Posted - 2014.12.11 17:55:07 - [30] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: If someone didn't get caught in restricted area near a mass murder there wouldn't be any kind of fleet at all. Here's the straight up truth that some Amarrians apparently can't handle. All you have are suspicions - century old suspicions, at this point - that some Jove were in proximity to an area where some HIgh Priests were killed. Over this potentially imagined slight, you decided you were going to enslave their entire race, and so invaded their sovereign territory - territory that did not in any conceivable way belong to you - with a war fleet that had no other intention than to destroy Jovian assets. They responded with a fleet of their own and handed you a crushing, humiliating defeat after which you ran home with your tail between your legs - and then lost the Minmatar Republic in a spate of equally crushing, humiliating defeats. Now, I don't personally believe your god exists, but if he does, by word of your scriptures he's omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. By definition, all things happen according to his will, and contrariwise nothing happens that he does not will. Therefore, if your god does truly exist, he willed Vak'Atioth and the events both leading to and happening as a consequence of it - he willed the death of the High Priests, he willed the crushing defeat at Vak'Atioth and he willed the end of the Minmatar occupation and the birth of the Republic. If that is true, the Jove were just as much his agents in this as anyone else. Unwittingly or otherwise, they delivered a message from your god. I'm not a believer in your god so I can't tell you what it might be, but if I had to guess it'd be something about hubris and pride going before a fall. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 952	Posted - 2014.12.11 18:03:35 - [31] - Quote Quite frankly, we invaded them to fulfill the obligations of Reclaiming. While there were reports of Jovian support of Matari insurgents prior to the Great Rebellion, those would hardly be the reason for our invasion. I have said before, and I will say again, we are not a passive nation that must invent flimsy "justifications" or claims of "simply defending ourselves" for war. We did not invade because of the murder of a few priests or the destruction of the Impervious or anything else like that. The Amarr-Jove War started because it is our duty to Reclaim the universe under God. We failed in that, because we allowed our pride to blind us and traitors to lead us, and this is something we can feel only great shame for as we have failed both God and the Jovian people.
Deitra Vess Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 134	Posted - 2014.12.11 18:18:13 - [32] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: Now, I don't personally believe your god exists, but if he does, by word of your scriptures he's omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. By definition, all things happen according to his will, and contrariwise nothing happens that he does not will. Therefore, if your god does truly exist, he willed Vak'Atioth and the events both leading to and happening as a consequence of it - he willed the death of the High Priests, he willed the crushing defeat at Vak'Atioth and he willed the end of the Minmatar occupation and the birth of the Republic. If that is true, the Jove were just as much his agents in this as anyone else. Unwittingly or otherwise, they delivered a message from your god. I'm not a believer in your god so I can't tell you what it might be, but if I had to guess it'd be something about hubris and pride going before a fall. So under your logic the Republic should be left alone due to their own god willing it so? If I'm thinking what you mean on that, I like the way you think....
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 4299	Posted - 2014.12.11 18:25:33 - [33] - Quote I just wanted to say that I find Samira's directness and honesty refreshing. I am totally behind the idea of a justified war and I hate having to pretend to be uncomfortable about the fact that we Carpe'd the Diem in getting that fleet to Home back in the day. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..."
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5105	Posted - 2014.12.11 18:38:07 - [34] - Quote Deitra Vess wrote: So under your logic the Republic should be left alone due to their own god willing it so? If I'm thinking what you mean on that, I like the way you think.... God is, if you believe the Amarr, all-powerful, all-knowing and present everywhere at all times simultaneously - in every place at every moment. If God had desired the Republic to stay under the rule of the Amarr, it would be so. If God desired the Republic fall back under the rule of the Amarr, this too would be so. That neither happened should speak for itself. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 953	Posted - 2014.12.11 18:51:32 - [35] - Quote God is all-powerful. Man is not. Our failure to do something is not an indication of God's will, it is an indication of our own failure in carrying it out.
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5106	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:13:27 - [36] - Quote God doesn't need ****-all from people. He's all-powerful. He can do whatever he damn well pleases and he sure as hell doesn't need any human's help to do anything. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 953	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:16:27 - [37] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: God doesn't need ***-all from people. He's all-powerful. He can do whatever he damn well pleases and he sure as hell doesn't need any human's help to do anything. No, He doesn't. But just because you can* do your child's homework, does that mean you should do it for them? Children have to be given the opportunity to develop on their own, with your support and guidance but not with you doing everything for them just because you can.
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5106	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:44:10 - [38] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: No, He doesn't. But just because you can do your child's homework, does that mean you should do it for them? Children have to be given the opportunity to develop on their own, with your support and guidance but not with you doing everything for them just because you can. It's funny that you people attach parental metaphors to the Amarr Empire and God when it so pleases you but conveniently forget that children are not beholden to their parents their entire lives, that parents can be and often are cruel, proud, ignorant, blinkered, abusive, more concerned with their own legacy than their child's wellbeing or a combination of all of the above and most importantly that a parent is, ultimately, on the same physical and existential level as their child - just older. By that standard, God's at the very best an absentee father and at worst a child molester. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 4301	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:49:04 - [39] - Quote Andreus, I hear what you're saying, but I have to ask what you think this discussion will achieve? Samira is a believer, she has Faith in God and she isn't going to abandon that faith because you pick holes in a metaphor she used to describe the concept of Free Will in Humans as it applies to what she sees as God's Plan. If this is just about being mean to someone because you don't like their religion, that's different, but let's not pretend you're really having a discussion here. Even if it's about trying to point out that someone's religion causes them to do very harmful and unpleasant things to people in what is nominally 'their own good' you still aren't going to shake Samira's belief in the Reclaiming, because it isn't rooted in something that can be disproven with facts. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..."
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 954	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:50:10 - [40] - Quote Children are beholden to their family their entire lives in the Empire. Maybe that is not the case in the Federation, but it is here. As for your opinion of God, you'll believe what you wish regardless of what I say.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 4301	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:54:03 - [41] - Quote Here's a question for one of the Faithful, though. Why do you believe the fleet commander's at Vak'Aktioth committed treason? Given that they found themselves in a tactical situation that presented them with the choice of withdrawing the fleet, leaving their objectives incomplete or losing the fleet, leaving their objectives incomplete, why do you believe the only sane strategic choice, that of at least preserving some lives and materiel, was treason? "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..."
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 955	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:57:35 - [42] - Quote Because the commander of the fleet, whose name I will not say, had conspired with the Jove. That kind of treason.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 4305	Posted - 2014.12.11 20:06:24 - [43] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Because the commander of the fleet, whose name I will not say, had conspired with the Jove. That kind of treason. Oh! Treasony treason! That kind. Fair enough. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..."
Deitra Vess Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 137	Posted - 2014.12.11 20:32:00 - [44] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Andreus Ixiris wrote: God doesn't need ***-all from people. He's all-powerful. He can do whatever he damn well pleases and he sure as hell doesn't need any human's help to do anything. No, He doesn't. But just because you can* do your child's homework, does that mean you should do it for them? Children have to be given the opportunity to develop on their own, with your support and guidance but not with you doing everything for them just because you can. But If we were considered gods children, wouldn't he step in to help bring us to "the right path" and thus make it so that nothing that did happen happen? Or is it more like testing the faithful?
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 961	Posted - 2014.12.11 20:50:41 - [45] - Quote He is, but he's doing it through his Chosen. His Chosen, just like the Unborn, have need to grow and develop, and they cannot do that if God is doing their work for them. The Unborn must learn to love God again, and the Chosen must learn how to be teachers, guides, and leaders. To put it in a way more understandable for nonbelievers: God delegates. God could just wave a figurative hand and have everyone worship Him again. But that teaches nothing, and it takes away all potential for growth from His creations. This is why Amarr must also avoid falling to the temptation of TCMCs, for they deny that same potential for growth. Like God, we have the capability to easily force all to worship Him. And like God, we should refrain from taking this easy path because it does not truly teach anyone.
Evi Polevhia Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 665	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:15:55 - [46] - Quote Cannot God just also wave a hand and have us all taught exactly what we need to rather than have us do it slowly, imperfectly, and incompletely?
Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 279	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:17:12 - [47] - Quote The interpretation of apparent setbacks or defeats for God and his people that Samira Kernher has provided is a common interpretation and may even be the mainstream interpretation. But it is not the only interpretation. I believe that God does foreordain everything, including the treachery of Vak'Atioth. What people seem to consistently misunderstand is that God may be more glorified by a short term defeat that makes his long term victory all the more magnificent than by a mere immediate victory. A short term defeat for his people may even occur when they have obeyed God's own commandments in every way GÇö that is the difference between the revealed will of God and the hidden will of God. God will be glorified in the end and he has no obligation to advance his Chosen people at every moment of every day; we Chosen can be confident, though, that even the hidden will of God is not at variance with God's divine attributes of perfect justice, perfect goodness, and so on, and thus we can be confident of our ultimate victory. Note that my interpretation does not require humans to have free will and does not require that "potential growth" be a positive moral value.
Jukko Riis State War Academy Caldari State 13	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:20:44 - [48] - Quote Nauplius wrote: Note that my interpretation does not require humans to have free will and does not require that "potential growth" be a positive moral value. If I have no free will, how can I be morally culpable for my actions?
Tyrel Toov Eplison Enterprises 157	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:25:42 - [49] - Quote Nauplius wrote: Note that my interpretation does not require humans to have free will and does not require that "potential growth" be a positive moral value. Not to worry, Naups. We long since stopped expecting positive moral values out of you. You needn't worry about clearing that up. Your evil reputation remains intact. I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 963	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:28:48 - [50] - Quote Evi Polevhia wrote: Cannot God just also wave a hand and have us all taught exactly what we need to rather than have us do it slowly, imperfectly, and incompletely? Read my previous posts. Though I don't expect a Sansha supporter to understand it. You prefer to deny the potential for growth and the wisdom obtained from overcoming hardship.
Deitra Vess Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 137	Posted - 2014.12.11 23:49:51 - [51] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: He is, but he's doing it through his Chosen. His Chosen, just like the Unborn, have need to grow and develop, and they cannot do that if God is doing their work for them. The Unborn must learn to love God again, and the Chosen must learn how to be teachers, guides, and leaders. To put it in a way more understandable for nonbelievers: God delegates. God could just wave a figurative hand and have everyone worship Him again. But that teaches nothing, and it takes away all potential for growth from His creations. This is why Amarr must also avoid falling to the temptation of TCMCs, for they deny that same potential for growth. Like God, we have the capability to easily force all to worship Him. And like God, we should refrain from taking this easy path because it does not truly teach anyone. I guess don't take this the wrong way, but does he not value his creations? I would think something he took pride in he wouldn't subjugate to trials, slavery, mass genocide of a planet? I mean maybe that's just the methods man created but even still..... Isn't that a little much? While yes he could teach whatever lesson without any effort but chooses to have us learn for ourselves, but isn't there some limit to it? Sorry, It just doesn't make that much sense to me.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 969	Posted - 2014.12.12 00:33:09 - [52] - Quote Just because you value something doesn't mean you can or should always be soft to it. Do you not discipline your child if they have done wrong? Do you not make your friend go through rehab if they're an addict? It is better to treat someone as they need, than to treat them as they want. Sometimes hurting someone is the only way to make them become a better person. Trials are good. Servitude is good. We learn from these things, we become stronger and wiser for having endured them. The road to Heaven is paved with tribulation. God values most those who prove that they are worthy of being valued. There are limits, of course. But it is up us to discover those limits, and it is up to us to resist the temptation to cross them when they are found. God will guide us and give us strength, but we have to first choose to take His hand.
Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 279	Posted - 2014.12.12 02:47:51 - [53] - Quote Deitra Vess wrote: I guess don't take this the wrong way, but does he not value his creations? No. God is infinity of every emotion, including cruelty and wrath, and he has created certain beings upon whom he directs those two emotions. I believe that I have made abundantly clear in my preaching just who those beings are.
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5116	Posted - 2014.12.12 02:51:17 - [54] - Quote Nauplius wrote: Normal irrelevant Nauplius things Nobody cares. Get out of the thread. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Gwen Ikiryo Alexylva Paradox Low-Class 412	Posted - 2014.12.12 03:16:10 - [55] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Because the commander of the fleet, whose name I will not say, had conspired with the Jove. That kind of treason. There is frail historical evidence at best to support this claim, miss Kernher.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 232	Posted - 2014.12.12 03:22:11 - [56] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Just because you value something doesn't mean you can or should always be soft to it. Do you not discipline your child if they have done wrong? Do you not make your friend go through rehab if they're an addict? It is better to treat someone as they need, than to treat them as they want. Sometimes hurting someone is the only way to make them become a better person. Trials are good. Servitude is good. We learn from these things, we become stronger and wiser for having endured them. The road to Heaven is paved with tribulation. God values most those who prove that they are worthy of being valued. There are limits, of course. But it is up us to discover those limits, and it is up to us to resist the temptation to cross them when they are found. God will guide us and give us strength, He will help us know right from wrong, but we have to first choose to take His hand. In other words, God embodies tough love. ...Fair enough, I guess. I can agree with His style of parenthood. Us Matari are in the habit of making our children toil, experience hardship and face challenges so that they may grow to be mature adults, able to adapt and survive in whatever situation we find ourselves in, and to always hold an unyielding core of values even in the face of duress (whether it works is another matter altogether). If I disagree with how your God does His work, I would make myself a hypocrite. Andreus Ixiris wrote: Nauplius wrote: Normal irrelevant Nauplius things Nobody cares. Get out of the thread. But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with. Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5117	Posted - 2014.12.12 03:26:25 - [57] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with. You're a very observant fellow! Given that keen insight of yours, would you like to guess how high this factoid rates on my "give a damn" scale? Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Tyrel Toov Eplison Enterprises 160	Posted - 2014.12.12 03:31:15 - [58] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with. not anymore I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 232	Posted - 2014.12.12 04:02:59 - [59] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: Elmund Egivand wrote: But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with. You're a very observant fellow! Given that keen insight of yours, would you like to guess how high this factoid rates on my "give a damn" scale? I say at the 0 mark. Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 972	Posted - 2014.12.12 04:08:42 - [60] - Quote Gwen Ikiryo wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: Because the commander of the fleet, whose name I will not say, had conspired with the Jove. That kind of treason. There is frail historical evidence at best to support this claim, miss Kernher. His Holiness the late Heideran VII, may he be at peace with God in Heaven, speaks rather candidly about the traitor's actions in the Pax Amarria.
Evi Polevhia Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 666	Posted - 2014.12.12 12:20:48 - [61] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Evi Polevhia wrote: Cannot God just also wave a hand and have us all taught exactly what we need to rather than have us do it slowly, imperfectly, and incompletely? Read my previous posts. Though I don't expect a Sansha supporter to understand it. You prefer to deny the potential for growth and the wisdom obtained from overcoming hardship. If you say so, Little Monster. Just one correction. The potential for growth isn't denied in Nation. It is the whole reason for Nation. And I would say Nation has learned much from overcoming hardship. What with your attempted genocide and all.
Ashlar Vellum 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 128	Posted - 2014.12.12 12:44:11 - [62] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: If someone didn't get caught in restricted area near a mass murder there wouldn't be any kind of fleet at all. Here's the straight up truth that some Amarrians apparently can't handle. All you have are suspicions - century old suspicions, at this point - that some Jove were in proximity to an area where some HIgh Priests were killed. Over this potentially imagined slight, you decided you were going to enslave their entire race, and so invaded their sovereign territory - territory that did not in any conceivable way belong to you - with a war fleet that had no other intention than to destroy Jovian assets. They responded with a fleet of their own and handed you a crushing, humiliating defeat after which you ran home with your tail between your legs - and then lost the Minmatar Republic in a spate of equally crushing, humiliating defeats. And? Also every complete and overwhelming victory against technically inferior opponent forces victor to retreat back to his own space, blow up a gate behind and cut off almost all communication with others. So, you know just in case such great victory won't happen again. Yeah right, great victory indeed. Andreus Ixiris wrote: Now, I don't personally believe your god exists, but if he does, by word of your scriptures he's omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. By definition, all things happen according to his will, and contrariwise nothing happens that he does not will. Therefore, if your god does truly exist, he willed Vak'Atioth and the events both leading to and happening as a consequence of it - he willed the death of the High Priests, he willed the crushing defeat at Vak'Atioth and he willed the end of the Minmatar occupation and the birth of the Republic. If that is true, the Jove were just as much his agents in this as anyone else. Unwittingly or otherwise, they delivered a message from your god. I'm not a believer in your god so I can't tell you what it might be, but if I had to guess it'd be something about hubris and pride going before a fall. So ... don't believe, can't tell and have nothing more than guesses. I'm all ears my gallente friend, please continue. Samira Kernher wrote: While there were reports of Jovian support of Matari insurgents prior to the Great Rebellion, those would hardly be the reason for our invasion. I have said before, and I will say again, we are not a passive nation that must invent flimsy justifications or claims of "simply defending ourselves" for war. We did not invade because the Jove may have been involved with the murder of a few priests or the destruction of the Impervious or anything else like that. They might have been factors encouraging it (among many others) but they were hardly the main reason for the attack. The Amarr-Jove War started because it is our duty to Reclaim the universe under God. We sought to conquer the Jove Empire, not to avenge some comparatively minor slight. We failed in that, because we allowed our pride to blind us and traitors to lead us, and this is something we can feel only great shame for as we have failed both God and the Jovian people. "few" and "minor slight", I see. Apostle Taj Rukon was one of those "few" and as you put it yourself "minor slights", lieutenant.
Odelya d'Hanguest ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere 578	Posted - 2014.12.12 13:07:57 - [63] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Andreus, I hear what you're saying, but I have to ask what you think this discussion will achieve? Samira is a believer, she has Faith in God and she isn't going to abandon that faith because you pick holes in a metaphor she used to describe the concept of Free Will in Humans as it applies to what she sees as God's Plan.. Does being a believer entail being immune to harsh criticism? Mr Ixiris has picked up her metaphor and expanded it. The deepest theosophic and theological insights have been achieved by expanding and questioning metaphors that try to entangle our incomplete attempts to grasp His nature and His eternal wisdom and all-encompassing knowledge. It is the end of true faith to refuse dialogue, both inner and outer. Spiritual enlightenment sometimes takes generations to occur. And Samira is far from this. Her journey has just started. Regards Odelya, Begum etc. etc. etc.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 973	Posted - 2014.12.12 15:17:15 - [64] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: While there were reports of Jovian support of Matari insurgents prior to the Great Rebellion, those would hardly be the reason for our invasion. I have said before, and I will say again, we are not a passive nation that must invent flimsy justifications or claims of "simply defending ourselves" for war. We did not invade because the Jove may have been involved with the murder of a few priests or the destruction of the Impervious or anything else like that. They might have been factors encouraging it (among many others) but they were hardly the main reason for the attack. The Amarr-Jove War started because it is our duty to Reclaim the universe under God. We sought to conquer the Jove Empire, not to avenge some comparatively minor slight. We failed in that, because we allowed our pride to blind us and traitors to lead us, and this is something we can feel only great shame for as we have failed both God and the Jovian people. "few" and "minor slight", I see. Apostle Taj Rukon was one of those "few" and as you put it yourself "minor slights", lieutenant. The key word, sir, was "comparatively". I do not deny that the murders were a factor, though most evidence points to the Federation and not the Jove Empire and if the murders were the reason then our fleets should have been turned on the Gallente and not the Jove. But the murders weren't the primary reason for war. We didn't invade the Jove because of the murders. We invaded them because we have an imperative from God to Reclaim His creations and bring this universe back to Him. We are all minor next to that holy directive. It was a war of conquest, not defense.
Jukko Riis State War Academy Caldari State 13	Posted - 2014.12.12 16:56:27 - [65] - Quote Speaking of murders... Anyone notice that the murders and counter-atrocities that everyone was so wrapped up in last week have faded from the news and collective memory? Nice little distraction there, wasn't it? Not pointing fingers mind, but the Sisters sure benefited from that short attention span of ours.

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