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Ghan Tylous
Caldari
Infinite Dreams Inc
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.09.08 08:12:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Eilie
Yes, I heard that it is an exploit to recylce alts like this...
but I still LOL at you for allowing them to kill you by not using instas or a t2 indy! 
Jita is high sec system. In theory you should be safe from any hostilities.
Its an exploit and should be petioned. People should feel safe in high sec systems, so see no reason to use instas there, only if you want to short down your traveltime.
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Friznit
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Posted - 2006.09.08 09:20:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Rina Shanu
I ask you this:
are suicide bombers a bad thing ?
Yes of course they are. Difference being suicide bombers rarely get to play again 
Incidentally, I've not petitioned this myself although I'm still tempted to just for the sake of tying up a loose end (it's clearly not uncommon and the devs are already aware so I'd be achieving little). For the record, I agree entirely that ganking haulers in high sec is a legitimate and profitable business, however abhorrent I may find it myself, and should I be inexperienced or idle enough not to use instas or provide proper protection then it is a risk that I take.
However, I think we all agree that recycling alts in such a way as to exploit the game mechanics is a bad thing, simply because it evades the very rules put in place to deter repeat offenders. Very very difficult to prevent without hurting the game for many other people though.
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Jazz Bo
Caldari
Plan 9 from Outer Space
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Posted - 2006.09.08 09:40:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Friznit
The hauler pilot who bimbled in to collect the loot was one cvbnjsd564. All in npc corps, and all nor more than 4 days old. Quite possibly all the same person using trial accounts.
You can't train the Industrial skill on a Trial Account.
Then again, the hauler pilot doesn't get a sec hit anyway, so there's no need to recycle him.
Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew.... squisssh! |
RichThugster
Gallente
Revelations Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.08 10:00:00 -
[34]
probably already been said, but back when you could fit cruise missiles on a kestrel, and create an alt and within 2 days, be able to spam 4 cruise missiles into a target and loose 500K isk, whilst gaining lots more it was even more often done. (/me speaks from experience) Because it was so quick and profitable, ppl recycled alts. CCP deemed this an exploit, since sec status is designed to punish ppl who kill unlawfully. By recycling alts there is no punishment
Originally by: KIATolon
I just got owned
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Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.08 10:58:00 -
[35]
For me, suicide high-sec ganking is metagaming, exactly like instas which are consdered a defence against it. It's not an exploit, but it's going very close to being one. This scenario is totally based on the extensive use of alts and loopholes in the criminal flagging.
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Arkanor
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:04:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 08/09/2006 04:41:17
Originally by: xlop
 just make it impossible to attack someone in empire unless its a war target or a corp mate, or a can flg] for until you have 3mil sp or more!
And then you'd see the appearance of 1-2mil SP indy alts hauling billions worth of goods, unkillable.
He's saying the character performing the action would need >3m SP, not the victim.
Which IMO, would be more along the lines of an anti-recycling solution, not very exploitable, but it limits player options early on and that is not what CCP wants to encourage.
Originally by: Ghosthowl
WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face.
Originally by: HippoKing
I just cried, you know that? |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:08:00 -
[37]
Suicide ganking is fine in my book.
The use of disposable pilots is not.
--*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:14:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Moghydin on 08/09/2006 11:14:35
Originally by: Arkanor
He's saying the character performing the action would need >3m SP, not the victim.
Which IMO, would be more along the lines of an anti-recycling solution, not very exploitable, but it limits player options early on and that is not what CCP wants to encourage.
I doubt it will limit the options of genuine new players. How many real noobs would consider suicide ganking as a real opportunity. It requires a decent knowledge of game mechanics and organization that the vast majority of new players simply don't posess. The only thing it would limit is the use of disposable or unused alts of experienced players, and that is not such a bad idea.
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Pestillence
Revelations Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:31:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ghan Tylous
Jita is high sec system. In theory you should be safe from any hostilities.
Common misconception yet you are completely incorrect
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:32:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ghan Tylous
Jita is high sec system. In theory you should be safe from any hostilities.
Jita is high security because it needs the extra policing since it is a hive of scum and villany.
If I have to afk haul to jita I always set my destination to a random system 1-2 jumps from jita instead. It is an order of magnitude safer than idling beside a gate in jita with a cargo worth good money. For things that are small enough I tend to use either a fitted-for-speed condor (no need to afk there, be there in just a moment) or something with a decent tank to outlast any suiciders.
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Russell T Davies is my master now. |
Ghan Tylous
Caldari
Infinite Dreams Inc
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:36:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Pestillence
Common misconception yet you are completely incorrect
Yeah well. Learn some new every day 
But thats how I see it.
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nahtoh
Caldari
Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:54:00 -
[42]
Originally by: DropZone 187
Out of curiousity, has CCP deemed this an exploit? I highly doubt the second poster has the authority to determine this all on their own.
If you got taken down by 4 days old alts, you must have been hauling afk and quite frankly, even in empire, that would be your own fault.
Its been concidered a explot by CCP for at lest 1.5 years...recyling sucide alts that is...
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"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
nahtoh
Caldari
Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.08 11:58:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ghan Tylous
Originally by: Pestillence
Common misconception yet you are completely incorrect
Yeah well. Learn some new every day
But thats how I see it.
Change your glasses then 
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"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Lucio
Gallente
Incorporated Holdings
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Posted - 2006.09.08 12:02:00 -
[44]
I'm curious as to when exactly AFK hauling inside the Empire became such a reviled idea? Every thread that comes up always includes the same message "it's your fault you should have used instas/should have used T2 haulers/should have paid more attention" etc etc
I mean, hauling is a boring part of the game, who really wants to sit infront of the screen for 2 hours watching a slow as hell ship warping through 20 jumps? After all, insta copying has been seriously nerfed meaning that those of us who don't have sets for every region are now denied that as an option and T2 haulers are quite skills intensive to use properly.
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Yes, I know I have a negative sec. status but I'm not a pirate damnit! |
nahtoh
Caldari
Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.08 12:49:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Lucio
I'm curious as to when exactly AFK hauling inside the Empire became such a reviled idea? Every thread that comes up always includes the same message "it's your fault you should have used instas/should have used T2 haulers/should have paid more attention" etc etc
I mean, hauling is a boring part of the game, who really wants to sit infront of the screen for 2 hours watching a slow as hell ship warping through 20 jumps? After all, insta copying has been seriously nerfed meaning that those of us who don't have sets for every region are now denied that as an option and T2 haulers are quite skills intensive to use properly.
Its more of a case of "APing your way though empire in T1 ship with all of your worldy goods then *****ing on the forums when it gets popped" thats disliked.
Don't forget the hauler that gets popped must be carrying enuff gear to make it worth wihle for the suicide ganker to kill it (well unless they just bored and feel like doing it).
=========
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Worms Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.08 14:23:00 -
[46]
Jita is high sec and should be safe, but Times Square in NYC is also fairly high sec and people still get mugged and sometimes shot. but unlike a back alley the cops responce time is much faster.
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Pookie McPook
Nova Synergy PLC
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Posted - 2006.09.08 14:36:00 -
[47]
I have to say that it disappoints me the way someone can ask a perfectly reasonable question and get flamed by a high proportion of responses.
Maybe you "big boys" should have the balls to start a thread yourself instead of just rubbishing others?
This is NOT WoW.....maybe you just got confused what game you're playing here?
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DaemonBarber
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Posted - 2006.09.08 18:42:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
Edited by: Viktor Fyretracker on 08/09/2006 14:26:47
Jita is high sec and should be safe, but Times Square in NYC is also fairly high sec and people still get mugged and sometimes shot. but unlike a back alley the cops responce time is much faster.
My point being is just as in new york you wouldnt go around waving wads of cash, dont go around jita waving wads of Megacyte or other high value items.
I fly exclusively in 0.0 and have only ever been to Jita looking for war targets that hunt our industrialists, so while this doesn't directly affect me, I still think it's lame.
For the record - they're not waving wads of cash, they've got it stashed in their pocket. If they wanted to drop it all in a can and then ***** when someone picked it up your argument would be valid; the haulers are just going about their business, it's the gankers that are taking advantage of the system.
Everyone keeps comparing Jita to NYC, which I personally don't understand. Jita is more dangerous then most 0.0 systems... The intention of 1.0 systems was not 'somewhat' safe - it's supposed to be safe. The argument that you should be hauling in T2 ships is foolish, most of the players that get hit doing this are NEW players that are getting turned off from the game because the 'safe' systems (according to the game - not what the players think) are dangerous to haulers.
There are two camps at odds here - along with everything else in EVE. Carebears and PVPers. EVE is very much a PVP game - but high sec empire PVP should be limited to the market and war targets. There are lots of places a PVPer can go to PVP, but they don't want that, they want easy ganks. There is no where a player can go that is safe from PVP (and they pay the same $15 you do).
Saying that it's the haulers fault is a load of bull. It's the gankers fault first, it's the games fault second and it's the haulers fault last. If the gankers didn't pull this crap, it wouldn't be an issue. If the game didn't let them get away with it (paying out insurance, letting the hauler pick up the loot, trial alts, etc) it wouldn't be an issue. Since this is the way it works today, yeah it's the haulers fault for getting killed, but there's a lot of other places that should changed before you start telling noobs they can't go to 1.0 systems (which by definition should be the most lawful) unless they're in a t2 hauler.
I'd be happy to see insurance revoked on these attacks, haulers being targeted by concord for looting the can, and trial accounts being prevented from attacking in high sec.
Removing the insurance would reduce the number of BS suicides, haulers being targeted would probably not work on it's own (as a second ship could suicide to flip the can), and trial accounts should not be used as a shelter for ganking in high sec (we limit their other uses - no reason not to do the same here).
PS- if you want to argue over how 'safe' 1.0 is SUPPOSED to be - show me a dev post saying that it shouldn't be safe and you'll find a lot critics of empire ganking drop the argument. Personal opinions wont sway anyone away from that belief though.
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Gretchen Dawntreader
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.09.08 18:43:00 -
[49]
naming a character a random sequence of letters and numbers should be grounds for a presumptive ban.
Such people are *never* up to any good. Macro-miners, Isk farmers and suicide alts, almost exclusively.
Not talking about "le3t n4|\/|Z0rz" but stuff like the OP mentioned. Randomly generated junk names.
(If we could apply the same logic to the registering of URLs and email addresses on the web, 90% of all spam would vanish. It's always sent by erktvddlkfd from eifvherlrj.ru)
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Caletha
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Posted - 2006.09.08 20:37:00 -
[50]
Although in some ways I find it completely amusing when I watched the "Jihad 2: Rens Assault" movie (see Video forum). It does strike me as odd that its a 'valid' tactic.
The only way to stop trial accounts from being used in this manner (or new-alts) is by stopping the ability to suicide gank. Or make it less profitable. Because how are you to know if its a new alt or not. And I doubt CCP will look into each case as they can hardly spare the time to look into my 2 ship-losses due to lag.
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Gort
Rampage Eternal
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Posted - 2006.09.08 21:50:00 -
[51]
Nullify insurance in high sec systems?
Low-tech sig:
"When in doubt, empty the magazine." |
Cmdr Sy
EUROPEANS
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Posted - 2006.09.08 22:14:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ghan Tylous
Jita is high sec system. In theory you should be safe from any hostilities.
Its an exploit and should be petioned. People should feel safe in high sec systems, so see no reason to use instas there, only if you want to short down your traveltime.
Not really.
Security =/= Safety. Absolutely anyone can attack and maybe kill absolutely anyone - all that is required is opportunity and means. Security invariably comes into play after the event. By then it may be too late - or if things are not in the attacker's favour - maybe not.
This holds true in real life. The presence of armed security personnel speaks only of consequences.
It may be lame, but as always, assume nothing.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.08 22:17:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ghan Tylous
Originally by: Eilie
Yes, I heard that it is an exploit to recylce alts like this...
but I still LOL at you for allowing them to kill you by not using instas or a t2 indy!
Jita is high sec system. In theory you should be safe from any hostilities.
Its an exploit and should be petioned. People should feel safe in high sec systems, so see no reason to use instas there, only if you want to short down your traveltime.
The only exploit was the using of alts to do the suicide gank. But sucide ganking is NOT an exploit and the devs have stated that high sec isn't meant to be completly safe! If you get blown up in high sec than it's your own fault for carrying around 50mil+ in a cheap 500k indy! 
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.08 22:31:00 -
[54]
Originally by: DaemonBarber
I am a complete n00b. Please flame me. Thank you.
1) Based on your carebear post, I doubt you live in 0.0 space.
2) New players arn't killed by suicide gankers because they don't have anything worth it. By the time you have expensive stuff to carry around, than you can afford to protect it. People are just lazy so they get what they deserve!
3) By paying the $15 a month, you are agreeing to play a PvP game where you are not safe anywhere!
4) If the gankers didn't do this, then the economy would be ruined. EVE's economy works so great because stuff is destroyed all the time! Also, without the gankers, EVE would become full of idiots like WoW and most other PvE games... 
5) Concord attacking the hauler who takes the can is just stupid. At most, they should just be flagged for normal can theft. No insurance does make sense, but it wouldn't stop the gankers anyway and CCP has more important things to code.
The thing I do agree with is:
Trial accounts need more restrictions to stop all the exploits with alts. Stop them from attacking people in hi-sec. Stop them from going into low sec and 0.0 as scouts. Stop them from jettsioning ore so they can't macro mine well.
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