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target painter - cruise missile relations on bs+ ship size

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Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2052	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:37:36 - [31] - Quote I think there are still issues with how long it can take cruise missiles to reach their target when used for long range sniping, but the cruise missiles themselves are great at shorter ranges, too. The single damage type bonus is an extra strong bonus so that it puts the net DPS more similar to a normal weapon system, you know, those things that don't have selectable damage. Soldarius wrote: Real Solution: Bring a friend in a Vigil. A ship shouldn't need a friend in a Vigil to do normal damage to appropriately-sized targets. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Shivanthar Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 139	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:45:15 - [32] - Quote Wow, crazy! I just came home and tons of discussion ^.^ I'll read all. BTW, I'm sniping in pve environment with mjd. 2 sebos with targeting range script. 1 mjd, 2 TP (one being republic fleet) This setup has a lot of range with TFI, but TP has another story. It is same with all platforms as ewars, but the downside is, it is actually not scaling with the ship size since it is a little bit more mandatory for missiles. _Half _the lies they tell about me aren't true.
Firestorm Delta Aphotic Machina 44	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:49:45 - [33] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: TPs are also the weakest form of ewar their is, even on a dedicated ship. my Golem gets a 10% bonus, and I still need 2 in order for fury to do more damage to battleships than precision, even against a target sitting still and with a t2 exp rad rig. . The Golem gets a decent bonus to TPs, your problem here with damage application isn't because of explosion radius, its the explosion velocity that is making you lose damage. I do agree that TPs might need some work, and missiles definitely need some work, but knowing how the missile damage formula functions can at least mitigate some issues until such a time comes. If you hit an angel BS with two tps and fire fury cruise at it while its moving at 200 m/s+ you will lose a lot of damage. Stacking every explosion radius bonus you can onto the ship will not help that. Explosion velocity on cruise missiles is terrible, especially on Furies. If the enemy is moving 50% faster than your explosion velocity you need your sig radius to be 50% smaller than the targets. It sounds easy, but when you're firing cruise missiles with a base sig of 567, that's not easy to do, and Angels can go almost 300 m/s in some cases, and strip 25% of your dps at random intervals with defenders. Just as an example, if you fired missiles with a sig of 400 and a exp velocity of 100 (Not that much different from max skilled Furies on a Golem) and your target was moving at 250m/s (Easy for Angels) you'd need to make their sig 1000m to still fully apply damage. This is part of the reason I still use Torps on my Golem, because a single republic painter nets a 50% bonus without even having full TP skills or marauder V, sig radius is great on cruise, but torps have a better base explosion velocity over everything except precision. If you can't get TPs to hit then use rigor rigs instead, or use a Navy Issue Raven. There are solutions to application issues, just gotta look at everything at your disposal.
Shivanthar Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 141	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:58:37 - [34] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Problem: TP optimal+falloff is less than large weapon optimal+falloff. Proposed solution: Buff all the things. Real Solution: Bring a friend in a Vigil. Don't exaggerate. The proposed solution is to give missile battleships and bigger hulls +7,5% per level bonus. _Half _the lies they tell about me aren't true.
Shivanthar Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 141	Posted - 2014.12.11 22:03:45 - [35] - Quote Aran Hotchkiss wrote: The two areas I want to chime in on are A) I'm interpreting 45000+90000 as 45km optimal, 90km falloff, which should translate into 45km: full effect 135km: 50% effect 225km: approaching 0% nvm, click this link to see a much better repesentation http://i.imgur.com/aAiEGQI.png On a side note... some modules when you mouse over them have a "max range" and an "optimal range" - outside the max range I don't think the module can even be activated, whilst other modules have an optimal + a falloff, which can be activate as long as you have a lock iirc. TL;DR - you're still getting some oomf out of your target painter at 170km. Not much though. B) Missiles seems to have atrocious application in general, as far as I know a target painter is almost mandatory on missile boats compared to non-missile boats. A counterpoint to this is missiles have a higher dps which a poorer application scales down to equivalent applied dps with turrets... but I'd much rather have the application increased and the dps toned down so it's much easier to compare them. Assuming the raw dps is good in the first place. TL;DR - I'd rather have missile application in general fixxed as opposed to this unique situation I agree with all the aspects, except that my TP really misses some cycles! I can see it missing! I swear! :P _Half _the lies they tell about me aren't true.
Shivanthar Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 141	Posted - 2014.12.11 22:06:23 - [36] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Everything has a tradeoff, and most trade offs have a method of mitigation for another trade off. Missiles already have it good comparatively at ranges 100km+ as turrets have to deal with the same falloff mechanics as the TPs, and have much shorter engagement envelopes in general. It sets up turrets being unable to compete at range, because of the now much increased application of missiles at extreme range. As for adding free bonuses to ships, -1. While I can't see any use for it other than MJD sniping, it is a bad precedent. I agree that extreme ranges should be tradeoff. Let me tell you this, fire a set of cruise missiles to 170km. Go get a water fast enough and you'll notice they're still on flight I call that "a tradeoff". Dam'n, if there would be, my target would be picking fitting services to get a mwd and boost its speed until missiles arrive _Half _the lies they tell about me aren't true.
Shivanthar Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 141	Posted - 2014.12.11 22:17:26 - [37] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: TheMercenaryKing wrote: Down vote. There is no "huge problem" just a care bear problem. There are Rigs to increase range: Particle Dispersion Projector There are implants to boost range: Centurion implant set There are ships that boost range: Hyena, Vigil, and others too (probably) Here is an all level 5 Hyena with a lowgrade centurion set and particle dispersion rig: 114 optimal + 90 fall off. For the hell of it, i added a boosting Damnation: 143+90 it's funny you should say it's a carebear problem, considering this proves the point of missiles not being used for long range engagements, outside of PVE. Adressing what am I doing, doesn't improve the situation. You wouldn't put target painter rigs on a pve missle bs hull, because when you're bored with the setup, you may want to just replace cruise missile launchers with torpedo launchers or HAMLs. Flight time, velocity and (explosion velocity rig or explosion radius rig) is mandatory for everyday fit-changes. Yet, "huge problem" I describe is about missiles, and yes, their problem is huge. There is an easy fix though: Increasing max cruise missile flight speed to much more than current and greatly slowing down acceleration, while increasing explosion velocity and decreasing explosion radius proportionally as missiles go faster and farther. This way, at max range, target you hit would receive more damage than same target you hit close. This will ensure that outside of TP ranges, cruise missiles will start to compansate. Tradeoff is travel time at extreme ranges, but hey, if your target is smart enough they'll just warp off if possible! If it is pve environment, then tp problem solved with fixing missiles already ^.^ _Half _the lies they tell about me aren't true.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 377	Posted - 2014.12.12 00:20:21 - [38] - Quote Shivanthar wrote: James Baboli wrote: Everything has a tradeoff, and most trade offs have a method of mitigation for another trade off. Missiles already have it good comparatively at ranges 100km+ as turrets have to deal with the same falloff mechanics as the TPs, and have much shorter engagement envelopes in general. It sets up turrets being unable to compete at range, because of the now much increased application of missiles at extreme range. As for adding free bonuses to ships, -1. While I can't see any use for it other than MJD sniping, it is a bad precedent. I agree that extreme ranges should have a tradeoff. Let me tell you this, fire a set of cruise missiles to 170km. Go get a water fast enough and you'll notice they're still on flight I call that "a tradeoff". Dam'n, if there would be, my target would be picking fitting services to get a mwd and boost its speed until missiles arrive Then engage the enemy more closely. You are using range as part of your tank and creating this problem through your own actions. Adding a stong long application bonus to several hulls, without any further balance considerations, is not the right solution. The right solution is to stop using an MJD to negate the majority of the damage or develop the patience to effectively use the tactic you have chosen. Making battleships worth the warp Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 707	Posted - 2014.12.12 00:26:06 - [39] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: A few things to keep in mind here: 1. A target painter increases damage application of everything that is shooting at the painted target. Not just your missiles, not just your turrets, but every single missile and turret being fired at the painted target. In a fleet environment, this is what qualifies as "a big deal". Being able to increase the damage application of potentially hundreds of ships with one module at current target painter ranges is already pretty powerful. Increasing that range only makes them more powerful. Would one ship being able to increase the damage application of a hundred fleetmates with 100% reliability while sitting 100km off the painted target seem overpowered to anyone else? It would to me. Yes, TPs do increase damage for everyone.... So do webs and at a greater extent... Most fleets prefer close range combat, for the use of webs and scrams. This is within 50km... Rarely are entire fleets built around long range dps, unless they're trying to alpha snip. Sure, a TP would help them, but odds are they've brought so much damage, the target ship likely won't last more than one volley, even without TPs. Quote: 2. Cruise missiles already have decent (albeit not great) damage application against battleship-class targets without target painter support. Yes, cruise missiles can't blap cruisers at 150km (eve if they don't warp off first), but should they really be able to? Can single sniper battleships blap them at the same range? Not reliably. Precision missiles don't reach nearly as far as fury, so you're limited to fury in long range engagements. As i mentioned, it takes at least two TPs for fury to do more damage against BS's at all ranges, even with the BS sitting still. For years players have been coming on missile threads saying that they have the same applied damage at all ranges. Now that TP threads are coming out, players are saying, why should missiles have the same applied damage at all ranges? Seems like these particular ppl just don't want missiles in pvp combat.... Quote: 3. Missile flight time mechanics probably could use some tweaking. I think CCP introduced the Mordu's ships with the bonuses they have in order to explore just that. Increasing missile velocity and decreasing flight time (such that range is the same, not doubled like on Mordu ships) would be beneficial to all missile systems. Agreed.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 707	Posted - 2014.12.12 00:30:41 - [40] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Then engage the enemy more closely. You are using range as part of your tank and creating this problem through your own actions. Adding a stong long application bonus to several hulls, without any further balance considerations, is not the right solution. The right solution is to stop using an MJD to negate the majority of the damage or develop the patience to effectively use the tactic you have chosen. Sooo, you're suggesting to NOT use a long range weapon system at long range? ..... Hey everyone... You know those rail guns, artillery, and beams you're using? Yeah, well, they work better at short range.. Now doesn't that just sound silly?
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 377	Posted - 2014.12.12 00:32:13 - [41] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: Precision missiles don't reach nearly as far as fury, so you're limited to fury in long range engagements. As i mentioned, it takes at least two TPs for fury to do more damage against BS's at all ranges, even with the BS sitting still. For years players have been coming on missile threads saying that they have the same applied damage at all ranges. Now that TP threads are coming out, players are saying, why should missiles have the same applied damage at all ranges? Seems like these particular ppl just don't want missiles in pvp combat.... Okay. So run faction ammo if you are outside the range you can reliably dual-paint things. Wow. Thats the thread everyone, it was all a case of using the wrong ammo for the application, you can go back to spinning. If there exist ships specifically to bring painter support at extreme range, then you need to find a balanced niche for them before removing their role by giving a free bonus to one type of sniper battleships. Making battleships worth the warp Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 377	Posted - 2014.12.12 00:36:33 - [42] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: James Baboli wrote: Then engage the enemy more closely. You are using range as part of your tank and creating this problem through your own actions. Adding a stong long application bonus to several hulls, without any further balance considerations, is not the right solution. The right solution is to stop using an MJD to negate the majority of the damage or develop the patience to effectively use the tactic you have chosen. Sooo, you're suggesting to NOT use a long range weapon system at long range? ..... Hey everyone... You know those rail guns, artillery, and beams you're using? Yeah, well, they work better at short range.. Now doesn't that just sound silly? They work best in their optimal range basket, which is generally under 100km with the high damage ammo. shocker. They lose DPS at long range through having to switch ammo types to increase optimal range, or they lose application through falloff. Missiles don't have to, and lose application (if you run TPs) via their Ewar starting to miss. The trade off for this range independent DPS and application is travel time. There are ways to reduce this trade off, just like everything else. Or you can count volleys and switch targets and wait. Making battleships worth the warp Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2052	Posted - 2014.12.12 00:39:04 - [43] - Quote i Would not balance a target painter under the assumption that the target painter is only being used by the one and only dps ship. (i.e. mission environment) If TP's get longer range it does mean you can have an e-war ship far out of harms way while dps ships are still ontop of the target reaping all the benefits. I admit, this didnt even cross my mind in the previous TP thread. If you want to use a long range weapon system with a TP you can still have a frig, vigil, hyena, bellicose, rapier or huginn flying 50-70km away from the target whilst you with 'those railguns' sitting as far away as you like and still getting the full benefits pretty much 100% of the time. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Rino00 Madeveda Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2014.12.12 05:44:42 - [44] - Quote The assumption is that missiles themselves are never really used and the reason is that they have a hard time applying damage. They need the target painter to assist them in applying damage, unlike other weapon platforms.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 378	Posted - 2014.12.12 06:31:05 - [45] - Quote Rino00 Madeveda wrote: The assumption is that missiles themselves are never really used and the reason is that they have a hard time applying damage. They need the target painter to assist them in applying damage, unlike other weapon platforms. So, lets fit some turrets with no tracking enhancers or tracking computers and see the damage output at 135km. 5 gets you 10 that anything but a paladin is at less than half its damage with short range ammo. Making battleships worth the warp Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2052	Posted - 2014.12.12 08:09:00 - [46] - Quote James Baboli wrote: So, lets fit some turrets with no tracking enhancers or tracking computers and see the damage output at 135km. 5 gets you 10 that anything but a paladin is at less than half its damage with short range ammo. It's a good point guys: cruise missile ships start to lose DPS at the end of target painter range. Long range turret sniper battleships start losing damage at the end of short range T2 ammo range. Yes, turret boats have a lot more DPS close up, and yes, they can track frigates at very long range, but they slip underneath cruise DPS even before the end of target painter range. Even the Naga can't hit out to 135km with bigger ammo than uranium, and that's with max skills and 3 tracking computers. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 14156	Posted - 2014.12.12 08:44:25 - [47] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: it's funny you should say it's a carebear problem, considering this proves the point of missiles not being used for long range engagements, outside of PVE. That's because at long range by the time the missiles have hit gunboats will have caused more damage and the missiles can be countered by fire walls. Missiles are more of a mid range small gang/solo weapon. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Janeway84 Def Squadron Pride Before Fall 119	Posted - 2014.12.12 10:16:22 - [48] - Quote The reason FOF exist is probably due to ecm. turret armor battleships can easily use up a modslot to fit eccm to counter the ecm to a certain extent. But for shield bs you havet to sacrifice tank / Ewar to fit counter ewar. I guess its all down to preference and tactics. Best way to counter ecm in my experience is usually more pilots in fleet and good flying sometimes Only useful missiles for pvp are close range ones due to the trade offs between all long range and short range weapons Imo maybe ccp could do something to help the target painters and how they affect missiles & long range weapons.
Shivanthar Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 142	Posted - 2014.12.12 13:23:06 - [49] - Quote Thank you guys. I appreciate your answers, both supportive and negative ones. I can't help myself but smile, in front of whole community who puts tons of edge ideas and cases I couldn't even imagine. Unless ccp decides to do something, I think I will be in htfu mode and just thankful to my cruise missiles that they can even hit that far ^.^ Just wanted my 2500isk salvo counts more, you know. We all have been there sometimes ;) _Half _the lies they tell about me aren't true.
Rino00 Madeveda Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2014.12.12 13:44:29 - [50] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Rino00 Madeveda wrote: The assumption is that missiles themselves are never really used and the reason is that they have a hard time applying damage. They need the target painter to assist them in applying damage, unlike other weapon platforms. So, lets fit some turrets with no tracking enhancers or tracking computers and see the damage output at 135km. 5 gets you 10 that anything but a paladin is at less than half its damage with short range ammo. The catch is that tracking enhancers and tracking computers always help your ship, target painters don't always help. With long range Railgun ammo a hybrid (with spike) has it's optimal set at 130 km before any tracking mods enter the equation. Tracking enhancers and tracking computers increase their range and tracking. Nevermind vs a Golem a Megathron can do extremely close to full dps at that range, even at worst case situation. Missiles still don't do instant damage and they can be destroyed. That affords them perfect damage selection if damage weakness is known (requires effort in pvp since it is obvious to plug your tanks resist hole) and capless firing. Those are a serious drawback in pvp. Why is it that people hardly use missiles in pvp? Well, because they are easy to counter. Besides a buff to target painters range (using harder to fit modules) would help small long range fleets. It would allow turrets to get closer to their paper dps at long range. And still I'll stand by turrets don't have to worry about if a target is going to fly off when shooting from long range.
MukkBarovian Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion 26	Posted - 2014.12.12 13:53:30 - [51] - Quote My pipe dream s a Minmatar BS with decent speed that can be fit armor or shield and has a bonus to target painting.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2052	Posted - 2014.12.12 13:59:02 - [52] - Quote MukkBarovian wrote: My pipe dream s a Minmatar BS with decent speed that can be fit armor or shield and has a bonus to target painting. I vote the Typhoon goes the route of the Armageddon and becomes a "disruption" battleship specializing in target painters with both a turret and missile damage bonus. Even with three skill bonuses, it can only use two at once, as any given high slot can either have a turret or launcher, not both. 7 high slots, 6 mid slots, 6 low slots, 7 launcher hardpoints, 7 turret hardpoints Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk

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