Our real problem, in regard to getting those underpriced intermediates off the market, is that we are not allowed to reprocess PI products, intermediate or otherwise.
If we were, we would be buying up the underpriced products, "melting them" and relisting as correctly prices raws or precessing into what has demand, as long as there is a sufficient arbitration gap.
However, even if that was allowed, the taxes now provide a significant arbitration barrier, even if we could smelt in station for free.
Taxed in the import of the smelted raws, and taxed on the output P1/P2/P3/P4.
I wont tire you with my numbers (and my new sheet is incomplete), but you know the basics.
5% on the input, and 10% on the output (of which there considerably less).

If we didnt have to deal with that taxbarrier and if we could melt those intermediates, then "we" (the hisec industry and markets) would soon see to it that they were priced correctly and act like "the invisible hand" of Smith fame.

It wouldnt deal with overproduction of some P1/P0, but it would see to it that all p2-P4 products get balanced around the correct prices as per raw material cost.

Seriously.

Some of you are UNSUBBING because your almost worthless highsec activity is now even more worthless?

Risk : Reward, retards. If you won't risk doing PI where it is valuable ... you don't get to reap the rewards.

Working as intended, finally.

Oh, and the PI in low sec isn't that great.

I've got fifteen worlds on a couple alts and I make about 300k average profit (not net, profit) per world per day, in low sec.

I mentioned this in another thread that got locked:

Most MMO developers have learned from other MMO mistakes to not mess with their core carebear playerbase. CCP is not playing it safe with this change. CCP is known for making tough decisions, however. Balance changes to rigs negatively impacting salvaging profits comes to mind.

Changing a popular playstyle (granted, PI is slightly more advanced than small ship PvE and mining) can shell shock their largest playerbase and drive them away.

The fallout of the tax rate change will take a while to settle, as far as market price readjustments and the shock to PI participation. Until the general fallout subsides, my advice is to wait and closely watch what the market does, while producing in PI and adjusting to that market.

Risk versus reward? It was already there, with increased resources from PI in lower security systems. BTW- Carebears do not care about risk, as long as they are having fun. A large population of the game does not care about PvP and are focused on profits and enjoying the other game systems (market, mining, sites, industry, science, etc).

The playstyle of having fun: Not having your gaming experience interrupted/changed after you've become accustomed to doing something fun. Introduce new systems with new sinks to get to your balance goals. It's something I learned early on as a systems designer on Ultima Online (even though management sometimes ignored my cries for sanity).

There is so much wrong with what you've written there that I don't know where to start.

Carebears of course care about risk - that it the entire point of the definition. Their tolerance for risk is so much lower that they simply stop being able to have fun when is gets above a very low threshold.

CCP should not care too deeply about carebears who decide to quit over a change to PI. They simple do not drive the sandbox storylines of the game which keep the majority of people playing.

Whilst a large population of the game may not involve themselves in PVP - it is PVP that drives the market. Without PVP you gut market demand. Who is going to buy minerals or stuff from the LP store or anything else for that matter is it isn't to replace ships and assets lost in PVP.

That's about as far as I can be bothered to write..

You fail to factor ship loss, clone costs, and any import taxes. Those are also losses that count against your profits.

Carebears of course care about risk - that it the entire point of the definition. Their tolerance for risk is so much lower that they simply stop being able to have fun when is gets above a very low threshold.

CCP should not care too deeply about carebears who decide to quit over a change to PI.

Whilst a large population of the game may not involve themselves in PVP - it is PVP that drives the market.

If you are losing clones in lowsec, you are doing it very wrong. I have only lost one pod in empire in the last 2 years, despite nearly 200 ship losses.

And with proper ships and scouting, losing haulers should be extremely rare.

PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP.

Oh, and the PI in low sec isn't that great.

I've got fifteen worlds on a couple alts and I make about 300k average profit (not net, profit) per world per day, in low sec.

To recoup one POCO, it would have to run uninterrupted for two years to make back the initial investment.

Let me point that out again: it would take TWO YEARS to make the isk back.

Now, granted, this is at current prices, which are guaranteed to climb rapidly, and this is assuming that nothing ever happens to it.

But just think about that. Two Years.

Risk vs reward indeed.

You are think about it the wrong way. If you replaced the POCO, which I question you could by yourself, sure it would take years to reap the profits. On the other hand if you set the tax rate at a reasonable level you'd be making money off all the folks using your POCO. Now honestly I don't see a single player doing that but there will be low sec and null sec corps that set reasonable tax rates. To profit from the taxes and/or provide a people for them to gank.

I once had a boss tell us at the beginning of the meeting we were going to have a 2% pay cut in the coming year. We were paid on commission and our rate was being cut from 8% to 6%. Needless to say, my paycheck went down more than 2%.

The issue with the changes to PI are they did two things at once. The reindexed prices and they changed the rate.

So yes the Tax Rate went up, and the index went up. Now people are trying to attribute both increases to one factor. You have to seperate the two.

Jack, I fly a blockade runner cloaked.

And, if you're not getting podded, than whoever is the tackler is for your local PvP corp, sucks.

Marsan, I have about three planets that I even have a single other player using.

How much you think I'm gonna get at 10%?

^^ This, Im done. Yeah, yeah I know I can simply offset this by raising my own prices and raping customers, but thats OK, ill pass.

Done.

That's the root of the problem right there....

CCP didn't say a WORD about the base price of the goods being the average of Nov 2011 trade price index now for this release as compared to the 2009 average for the index of the good.

If they would have said the index price was also going up, we would have heard a lot more pre-whining but people wouldn't be as bitchy as they are now.

Katowen

You are think about it the wrong way. If you replaced the POCO, which I question you could by yourself, sure it would take years to reap the profits. On the other hand if you set the tax rate at a reasonable level you'd be making money off all the folks using your POCO. Now honestly I don't see a single player doing that but there will be low sec and null sec corps that set reasonable tax rates. To profit from the taxes and/or provide a people for them to gank.

Only reason POCO replacement isn't happening yet is because the price of POCO hardware is still over-inflated. Only people buying POCO structures are math-deficient WH dwellers that just want that magical 0% tax rate for their private hole.

Give it a few weeks.

Now the taxes actually reflect reality. If POCO taxes at 10%, it will be 10% of a rate that is at least close to market prices. Personally I'd wish the "prices for taxation purposes" would automatically be recalculated monthly or quarterly, based on average real market prices, but that involves :code: and :effort: from CCP, so until then this last minute hack job works as a placeholder.

PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP.

It's fun to see a goonswarm alt like Regneir try and troll.

Mostly because if they, say, nerfed rats, moons, and arknor into the ground like PI, they'd be one of hte first groups to line up and scream.

Arkonor? Really? Really?

You think we mine?