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It is Past Time for the Republic to Sue for Peace

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Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5174	Posted - 2014.12.17 11:25:16 - [61] - Quote Miyamoto Takedi wrote: To call for the handover, apparently for execution, of the current leader of the Republic, for acts performed by a group apparently not under their control is the equivalent of the Federation demanding that Amarr hand over their Empress for the invasion of their space under Karsoth's watch. Well, actually, the ill-fated invasion of Solitude did happen under Sarum's watch. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Eran Mintor Esoteric Philosophy 723	Posted - 2014.12.17 12:17:10 - [62] - Quote Marus Sulla wrote: Midular was at the head of an appeasement Government which achieved nothing and was proven to be riddled with traitors. The Elder fleet however returned the Starmanir and Nefatar to us. A giant step forward in the Long War. Recent events in the Bleak Lands are just a small step backwards. Marus Midular was a rallying cry not too long ago that caused the Republic to attack its only ally, surely you're giving her less credit than she deserves. You say she was the head of an appeasement government--coming from a member of Ushra'khan, you'd probably be kicked if you said otherwise. Midular was a leader who cared deeply for her people and worked at the dawn of the Minmatar Nation to try to stabilize and build a good future for the tribes. She focused on securing borders and creating a respectable image for her people. Her reluctance to strike wasn't a bad thing. Likely she saw the futility of it--though I doubt she predicted we'd be in such the state we are now. Some people, myself included, were too naive, ignorant, or plain stupid to realize the wisdom in her guidance until too late; some were even blind 'till after she died when suddenly her popularity surged. Shakor is an old warlord, a respected one no less. His pride caused him to refuse fixing his sight, and some people seem to pity him for his blindness. The reality is the man is a capsuleer and has no need for sight. He lives to kill Amarr. He returned two tribes which remain almost complete outcasts and have to fight to even be considered equals in the 'Republic'. He betrayed the trust from his only ally, the Gallente, and murdered several thousand Federals, Minmatar-blood included, because he has a bad temper. The only thing he has done that I might argue as a good thing is pushing the government more in line with Minmatar ideals, but even then there is a sizable minority who disagree in some way with these changes. This Pendulum War continues and may never see an end. The war begets more hate which only gives more excuses for young souls to be lost in the void. To say the Minmatar people are in a better place now with Shakor would require even more faith than some zealous Amarr have. You hope that this war will bring about the end of slavery. You hope that the Minmatar people will continue to put their lives into the fray. Eventually the statistics will break through the propaganda. Far more lives are lost in this proxy war than have been freed. And all for what? Some seem to have such a closed mind that this is the only answer. -Eran
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5175	Posted - 2014.12.17 15:16:57 - [63] - Quote If people like Shakor really are a blight on this cluster - an assertion which in itself is largely a matter of opinion - then it is a blight that the Amarr have inflicted upon us. As I have said in this thread and a previous one, it was Amarr that sewed the seeds of the vast majority of the hardships they face today. Shakor is the fruit of Amarr's labours, just as much as the rebellion and the rise of the Republic, and before that, the Starkmanir uprising. Ultimately, were it not for the Amarr, there would be no Shakor. Sometimes, I see people attempt to draw parallels between the slavery of the Minmatar and the cultural subjugation of the Caldari in the early years of the Federation. I'll be the first to admit the Federation made a massive screwup in how we treated the Caldari, but whenever anyone brings this up, it is never without massive disingenuity. There is a fundamental difference which is worth commenting on : no matter what strife lay in their shared future, the first contact the Caldari had with the Gallente was peaceful. The citizens of Caldari Prime were a prosperous industrial age society who were visited by a technologically superior culture who nonetheless contacted them and introduced themselves in peace. The Caldari were not seen as too primitive to understand us. I will not go so far as to say that the Gallente treated them as equals, but the first Gallente who ever came to Caldari Prime came there in peace. Our mistakes - and there were many - were made far later. The first contact any Minmatar had with the Amarr were monsters coming out of the black to literally steal their children. The Amarr never even attempted peaceful first contact with the Minmatar - their first response was military conquest and subjugation. The Minmatar never had a chance to develop any other opinion of the Amarr than of brutual conquerers, come to force them to toil for the Empire. For seven hundred years, depsite very clear indications the Minmatar made to the Amarr at every possibile opportunity they were given that they wanted nothing to do with Amarrian culture or religion and desired only to be free of the Empire, the Empire ignored their desires, murdered their kin, attempted to erase their culture and even perverted their very genetic lineage. From the very moment of first contact, the Minmatar were at war with the Empire. Until a century ago, they knew literally nothing else. A century ago, the Minmatar finally managed to exploit a moment of weakness - much like the Amarr had done seven hundred years previously - to seize back their freedom, but it took a long, bitter war to do so, and even once they were free, all was not well with the Minmatar. They had to deal with the consequences of seven hundred years of abuse, mistreatment and slavery - indellible cultural and psychological scars that cast a shadow on every aspect of the Republic. Their culture was shattered, pieces of it lost to time or the intentional erasure of the Empire. They were forced to build a functioning civilian society, military and economy essentially from scratch, having not been allowed to develop any of these things on their own under the Empire. All of this would have been hard enough had they had the opportunity to do it in isolation - however, the Empire was still there. The Empire that had come out of the black seven hundred years ago to kill, pillage and enslave was still there, still looking down upon them, still refusing to treat them as equals, still refusing to apologise for the endless array of atrocities it had inflicted upon them. And then, and then, the fledgling Minmatar Republic was subjected to perhaps with perhaps the most horrific insult of all. They were that they were being the unreasonable ones, and the Amarr were a dignified, harmonious society desiring only peace and tranquility. For a century, the Minmatar have had to labour not only under the monolithic task of reconstructing their culture and society, but through every step of the process they have been subject to the Empire's level best attempts to hinder and degrade it. The Empire claims moral superiority at every turn while still keeping a third of the Minmatar people in slavery, while still refusing to provide reparations for the seven hundred years of abuse the Minmatar people have suffered, and most importantly, while still failing to adjust their attitude towards the Minmatar. You see, the thing is, the Minmatar know that the Amarr didn't sue for peace a century ago out of the goodness of their hearts. They did it because the geopolitics of the time dictated that continuing to war with the Minmatar after the disaster at Vak'Atioth and a peace agreement looming between the Gallente and the Caldari would leave the Empire in very serious danger of an attack by the Federation. But this didn't represent a change in the attutide of the Amarr - it took years for the Empire to even concede to allowing the Republic delegation a chair at the negotiating table (not to mention that they briefly considered attempting to enslave the Caldari). Everyone was implicitly aware the Amarr were not negotiating peace for peace's sake, but peace for the sake of waiting for a more tactically advantageous state of affairs. Perhaps the Amarr might have some small amount of justification to act upset by Shakor's actions, but they have no justification whatsoever to act surprised that men like him hold sway with the Minmatar. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Erin Savonarola Viziam Amarr Empire 37	Posted - 2014.12.17 15:41:15 - [64] - Quote Anabella Rella wrote: You throw your zombie empress out first then we can talk. Oh, don't like me telling you how to run your affairs? Then how the hell do you think it's ok to dictate to us? Hypocritical, arrogant fools. I don't. Internal affairs of the sovereign Tribal Republic is a purely Minmatar function. That was the agreed upon stance of the CONCORD Treaties and still the official stance of the Imperial government. The issue that concerns the Empire is that we do not wish to be attacked again, which I am sure is understandable. Some of my fellow Amarr have seized upon Shakor's removal as the key to Imperial security. I am sure that if other guarantees of safety for the Empire can be obtained.
Gaven Lok'ri PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 284	Posted - 2014.12.17 16:04:01 - [65] - Quote Miyamoto Takedi wrote: I have yet to finish reading this thread, but simply looking at the historical timeline of events I can see no reason for the OP to call for the handover of a man who only took a position of power after the events he is being blamed for. The one who was in power at the time, is dead. Your understanding of recent history is rather skewed. The events in question were what led to the rise of Shakor to power. Those "disavowed" fleets, the invasion, and a wave of assassinations were his tools for taking over the Republic. The sin of the prior government was being too naive in their dealings with the radical warmongers such as Shakor and allowing them to prepare their dastardly surprise attack, and they paid for that sin with their lives as Shakor's people killed them. Lord Admiral of PIE inc. \| -áRecruitment Information \| Public Forum \| Neocom channel: "PIE Public" \| Amarr Victor!
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5176	Posted - 2014.12.17 16:16:21 - [66] - Quote Erin Savonarola wrote: I don't. Internal affairs of the sovereign Tribal Republic is a purely Minmatar function. That was the agreed upon stance of the CONCORD Treaties and still the official stance of the Imperial government. The issue that concerns the Empire is that we do not wish to be attacked again, which I am sure is understandable. Some of my fellow Amarr have seized upon Shakor's removal as the key to Imperial security. I am sure that if other guarantees of safety for the Empire can be obtained. There are certainly measures that can ensure the Empire's safety. The question remains if the Empire is willing to make the sacrifices in pride neccesary to renounce the Reclaiming and free the rest of the enslaved Minmatar. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Deitra Vess Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 169	Posted - 2014.12.17 16:36:59 - [67] - Quote They'll never give up the Reclaiming, its too far implanted in their culture to ever be removed. Without that gone the fear is still there, and how can there be peace with that looming over our heads. I've said it once and I'll say it again, History repeats itself...
Gwen Ikiryo Alexylva Paradox Low-Class 430	Posted - 2014.12.17 16:54:19 - [68] - Quote I don't see the need for the conceptual abandonment of the Reclaiming, so long as the Empire ceases to be a militantly expansionist state - Most religions have some sort of imperative for them to be spread. If their God does exist and truly favours them as is described in the Scriptures, then evidently, they will eventually convert the whole of the cluster peacefully, as is described in the Pax Amarria. And if they don't, well, I'm sure they'll find a way to reconcile the implications themselves.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1880	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:07:48 - [69] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: Rodj Blake wrote: People seem to be forgetting that Shakor is an oath-breaker and a war criminal. Not according to CONCORD, whose opinion is the only one that matters in the case of "war criminals." CONCORD is also fine with slavery. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Deitra Vess Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 172	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:11:29 - [70] - Quote Gwen Ikiryo wrote: I don't see the need for the conceptual abandonment of the Reclaiming, so long as the Empire renounces military expansionism - Most religions have some sort of imperative for them to be spread. If their God does exist and truly favours them as is described in the Scriptures, then evidently, they will eventually convert the whole of the cluster peacefully, as is described in the Pax Amarria. And if they don't, well, I'm sure they'll find a way to reconcile the implications themselves. Forgive me if I'm mistaken on my understanding of this, but the whole point of it is to conquer. Whether it is on a cultural or military standpoint, conquest is the goal. Yes all religions seek new followers, not all see the world as children in need of a father figure. Not all look to discipline their new followers for not being indoctrinated at birth. We all have our struggles in life, we all have our own path we must follow, Why do they need to create burdens? Why diminish the path set for us at birth, only to give nothing in return?
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5176	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:27:48 - [71] - Quote Rodj Blake wrote: CONCORD is also fine with slavery. So, like everyone else, you're willing to take the bits of CONCORD you like and discard the rest? Glad to see yet another example of how Amarrians really aren't better than anyone else. Gwen Ikiryo wrote: I don't see the need for the conceptual abandonment of the Reclaiming, so long as the Empire renounces military expansionism - Most religions have some sort of imperative for them to be spread. If their God does exist and truly favours them as is described in the Scriptures, then evidently, they will eventually convert the whole of the cluster peacefully, as is described in the Pax Amarria. And if they don't, well, I'm sure they'll find a way to reconcile the implications themselves. The idea of the entirety of humanity sharing one culture is pretty damn horrific regardless of how it's achieved. Talk to Stitcher about his opinion on cultural homogenisation sometime. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Karynn Denton Clan Katanga Caravan 339	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:10:18 - [72] - Quote What's with all the peacenik nonsense? Should I jack in the combat-enhancer trade and start selling flowery garlands instead? Start shooting each other in the face again, ffs! Karynn Denton Caravan Master
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1006	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:18:43 - [73] - Quote Anyone who could seriously ask for Amarr to renounce the Reclaiming has no understanding of Amarr or our faith at all. The Reclaiming does not always need to be conducted by war, but the principle itself is never going away. It governs everything we do and everything we are. The whole point of it is to bring the universe to a state closer to God. To Reclaim those that have fallen, to Reclaim our souls from the sins and temptations that have festered, to Reclaim the knowledge and wisdom that have been lost in dark ages. It is the quest for improvement, both within and without. The Reclaiming isn't going away. Argue against war, argue against slavery, argue against vitoc and TCMCs, argue against so many other things, some that we might even agree to, but to argue against the Reclaiming is a battle that you will not win. Amarr has changed enough to suit the demands of foreigners over the last century. Also, anyone who honestly expects Amarr to make any concessions whatsoever in the face of an illegal invasion in defiance of interstellar treaties has no understanding of diplomacy or politics. To make concessions to such an invasion is to say that breaking treaties is an acceptable way to get what you want. It would only encourage the Republic to do the same at a later date, knowing that they would be able to get further concessions. It encourages the viewing of treaties as disposable. This is an area where it would be absurd on every level for us to offer up anything. For the war to end, the Republic and only the Republic can be the ones to end it. If they are unwilling to own up to their own dishonor, then so be it, the war will continue. Diplomacy achieved change in Amarr. This war does not and will not. That we even have to argue this point is unbelievable. The Republic attacked CONCORD, not just the Empire. Every single CONCORD signatory should have been calling for the Republic's immediate dismissal from the organization for their treachery. CONCORD itself has due cause to consider the Republic a rogue state. At the very least we all should have imposed sanctions. Same thing for the State's invasion of the Federation, by the way.
Erin Savonarola Viziam Amarr Empire 37	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:24:21 - [74] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: Erin Savonarola wrote: I don't. Internal affairs of the sovereign Tribal Republic is a purely Minmatar function. That was the agreed upon stance of the CONCORD Treaties and still the official stance of the Imperial government. The issue that concerns the Empire is that we do not wish to be attacked again, which I am sure is understandable. Some of my fellow Amarr have seized upon Shakor's removal as the key to Imperial security. I am sure that if other guarantees of safety for the Empire can be obtained. The question remains if the Empire is willing to make the sacrifices in pride necessary to renounce the Reclaiming and free the rest of the enslaved Minmatar. The Empire already recognizes the Republic as a sovereign entity. The CONCORD treaties affirm this. We have already renounced the idea of a military Reclamation. As far as the enslaved Minmatar in the Empire, we will govern our people as we see fit.
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5179	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:30:47 - [75] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Amarr has changed enough to suit the demands of foreigners over the last century. No it hasn't, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Erin Savonarola Viziam Amarr Empire 37	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:37:26 - [76] - Quote We're under no obligation to change, at all.
Deitra Vess Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 173	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:46:30 - [77] - Quote Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace...
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1008	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:53:14 - [78] - Quote Deitra Vess wrote: Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace... Aside from the fact that the Republic was better off and safer before the war, as a trade and diplomatic partner with the Empire.
Anslo Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 25154	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:55:11 - [79] - Quote Boy this is going in more circles than an exotic atom in a particle accelerator. Only this circle doesn't end in smashing. It goes forever. [center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Tyrel Toov Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 185	Posted - 2014.12.17 19:01:42 - [80] - Quote Anslo wrote: Boy this is going in more circles than an exotic atom in a particle accelerator. Only this circle doesn't end in smashing. It goes forever. It is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on an on my friends, some people started posting in it not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting forever just because, It is the thread that never ends.... I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Katy Moore J. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm 15	Posted - 2014.12.17 19:02:17 - [81] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: I the Minmatar know that the Amarr didn't sue for peace a century ago out of the goodness of their hearts. The Amarr Empire never sued for peace with the Minmatar Republic. After restoring order, Emperor Heideran declared peace, because he knew the cost to the civilian populations would be unacceptable. Then, when the Federation, the Caldari State, and even the Jove Empire began the project that was to become CONCORD, and hardline Holders objected to the Emperor Heideran's decision to enter these negotiations, which ultimately recognised the Republic as an entity. Then, in a political masterstroke, the Emperor Heideran appointed a Sarumite Holder as the representative to CONCORD, to which the hardliners were unable to object, without insulting themselves. So, it was out of the goodness of the great Emperor Heideran's heart, that peace was achieved. And then Shakor goes and ruins all of that. I have spoken before, on the possibility of peace between the Empire and the Republic. Those arguments remain valid. I would suggest Shakor be placed under house arrest in Yulai, and banned from real time electronic communication with the rest of the cluster. This would end his malignant influence over the Republic, and allow a peace settlement that is not an obvious delaying action.
Mizhara Del'thul T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan 83	Posted - 2014.12.17 19:27:40 - [82] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Deitra Vess wrote: Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace... Aside from the fact that the Republic was better off and safer before the war, as a trade and diplomatic partner with the Empire. At the cost of countless suffering under the Empire yoke. While I do not have high thoughts of the Republic, I think most of its denizens would consider that too high a price to pay.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1880	Posted - 2014.12.17 19:30:51 - [83] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: Rodj Blake wrote: CONCORD is also fine with slavery. So, like everyone else, you're willing to take the bits of CONCORD you like and discard the rest? Glad to see yet another example of how Amarrians really aren't better than anyone else. No, merely pointing out that's what you were doing. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 4351	Posted - 2014.12.17 19:37:36 - [84] - Quote Deitra Vess wrote: Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace... I know you're a combat pilot, so I find it odd that you can't view the constant loss of blood and treasure involved in the wars and not see "any reason to even entertain the idea of peace". As a Minmatar Capsuleer, I know that you are insulated from the masses of starving refugees and the poverty and crime and brutality that is a direct result of focusing so much economic output on war production, but still - you can see it. And seeing it, how can you have no "reason to even entertain the idea of peace"? I understand your need to free your kin but you MUST have somewhere to free them to. Or are you intending to send them all to the Federation while you break the Republic on the rocks of endless war? Since your current approach is achieving very little progress, you would be better served in seeing it as a long term process and prioritising accordingly. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..."
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5179	Posted - 2014.12.17 20:00:40 - [85] - Quote Rodj Blake wrote: No, merely pointing out that's what you were doing. All of the years we've known each other, Blake, all I've ever desired of you is that you get down off your high horse and admit that you're just like the rest of us. One of these days, with words or with force, I will compel you to do so. That is an ironclad promise. That day will come and you should prepare for it. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Havohej Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 123	Posted - 2014.12.17 21:12:02 - [86] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: Rodj Blake wrote: No, merely pointing out that's what you were doing. All of the years we've known each other, Blake, all I've ever desired of you is that you get down off your high horse and admit that you're just like the rest of us. One of these days, with words or with force, I will compel you to do so. That is an ironclad promise. That day will come and you should prepare for it. When I was locked up in an RSS prison, they had these mandatory "Anger Management" classes we had to sit through. In these classes, they warned us of "talking yourself into a corner." That is, stating that you will do a thing and thus, no matter how self-destructive (or simply bloody boring) it may be, because you have said a thing before witnesses, you are cornered into having to do that thing. Of course, deciding later that it isn't worth it, or worse yet, failing in the attempt, leads to a great deal of embarrassment. Sometimes this embarrassment comes in the form of assholes reminding you years after the fact how you lost to this remote-repping Dominix fleet this one time. I'd hate to see this happen to you. Strike us like matches, 'cause everyone deserves the flames. OOC Forums @ Backstage
Rodj Blake PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1881	Posted - 2014.12.17 22:09:57 - [87] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: Rodj Blake wrote: No, merely pointing out that's what you were doing. All of the years we've known each other, Blake, all I've ever desired of you is that you get down off your high horse and admit that you're just like the rest of us. One of these days, with words or with force, I will compel you to do so. That is an ironclad promise. That day will come and you should prepare for it. Only when you admit that deep down you're just like me. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Deitra Vess Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 174	Posted - 2014.12.17 23:02:53 - [88] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Deitra Vess wrote: Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace... I know you're a combat pilot, so I find it odd that you can't view the constant loss of blood and treasure involved in the wars and not see "any reason to even entertain the idea of peace". As a Minmatar Capsuleer, I know that you are insulated from the masses of starving refugees and the poverty and crime and brutality that is a direct result of focusing so much economic output on war production, but still - you can see it. And seeing it, how can you have no "reason to even entertain the idea of peace"? I understand your need to free your kin but you MUST have somewhere to free them to. Or are you intending to send them all to the Federation while you break the Republic on the rocks of endless war? Since your current approach is achieving very little progress, you would be better served in seeing it as a long term process and prioritising accordingly. I was more less responding to Erin. Inflexability should be met with inflexability. If there's no room for compromise there's no reason for striving for peace. Believe me when I say majority of the points you made were clear and on my conscience when I said that, however we shouldn't forget the reasons why we fight to only make peace for ourselves and doom our children. As far as not having any place to bring them when we finally free our brothers, when we were finally free, we built ourselves back up from nothing. If what you said were the case, we would be starting from a much better point then that. Whatever hardship we would face, we would overcome. We have before, we most certainly will again.
Anslo Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 25353	Posted - 2014.12.17 23:10:02 - [89] - Quote Deitra Vess wrote: Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Deitra Vess wrote: Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace... I know you're a combat pilot, so I find it odd that you can't view the constant loss of blood and treasure involved in the wars and not see "any reason to even entertain the idea of peace". As a Minmatar Capsuleer, I know that you are insulated from the masses of starving refugees and the poverty and crime and brutality that is a direct result of focusing so much economic output on war production, but still - you can see it. And seeing it, how can you have no "reason to even entertain the idea of peace"? I understand your need to free your kin but you MUST have somewhere to free them to. Or are you intending to send them all to the Federation while you break the Republic on the rocks of endless war? Since your current approach is achieving very little progress, you would be better served in seeing it as a long term process and prioritising accordingly. I was more less responding to Erin. Inflexability should be met with inflexability. If there's no room for compromise there's no reason for striving for peace. Believe me when I say majority of the points you made were clear and on my conscience when I said that, however we shouldn't forget the reasons why we fight to only make peace for ourselves and doom our children. As far as not having any place to bring them when we finally free our brothers, when we were finally free, we built ourselves back up from nothing. If what you said were the case, we would be starting from a much better point then that. Whatever hardship we would face, we would overcome. We have before, we most certainly will again. PREEEEEEAAAAAACH [center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 279	Posted - 2014.12.18 02:48:13 - [90] - Quote Karynn Denton wrote: What's with all the peacenik nonsense? Should I jack in the combat-enhancer trade and start selling flowery garlands instead? Start shooting each other in the face again, ffs! Agreed. I would trade four-fifths of the population of the Empire in war if it meant the total extermination of the filthy Minmatar Republic.

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