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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
268
   |
Posted - 2014.12.16 21:27:47 -
[1] - Quote
For the last eleven years Amarr has been under constant attack from Matari elements bent on bringing destruction and devastation to peaceful populations. First it was merely rogue pod pilot terrorists groups. Then, after his successful coup d'etat, Shakor launched the largest surprise attack in recent memory in violation of a century of peace between the Republic and Empire.
After many years of war and much destruction we have reached a breathing point in which Amarrian capsuleers have attained total victory in the warzone. As things stand, this will not last. The tides will change since this engagement has been tied to the fortunes of capsuleers. And then more people in installations across the region will start dying.
But in this moment of defeat for those capsuleer forces loyal to the Republican, it is worth asking whether the Republic can afford this cycle to continue?
For the Empire, this war is affordable. We are fighting in regions that have been called Devoid and the Bleak Lands for a very good reason. The Bleak Lands themselves are only a recent addition to the Empire. Together, the threatened portion of the Amarr Empire is only about 5% of the total territory of the Amarrian Empire.
By contrast, the threatened systems in Matari space include some extremely high value real estate such as Amamake with its 19 Stations. The territory under threat, and currently entirely under Amarrian Control, is something around 15% of the Republic's total territory.
When you add in the rather imbalanced population math, even if the Republic were able to consistently win this strange CONCORD treaty defined war it is not clear that they would actually be winning the war in the long term. The drain on resources is simply a higher percentage of their resources than the drain on the Empire.
And the Republic has not been able to consistently win this treaty defined war. This should be obvious from the current victory that the 24th Imperial Crusade has attained.
It is time for the Republic's leadership to realize this and end this war before they end their own existence. It is time that they accept that they have thrown away a century of peace for a failed surprise attack and a war that they cannot hope to win.
It is time that they consider seriously offering concessions to Amarr to end this war that they started. It is time that they give up on Shakor and allow him to be tried and convicted for his many crimes.
Amarr has proven repeatedly over the last century that we are willing to work for peace in our time, and even now I pray that the Matari can take this opportunity to see reason and end their path of warmongering destruction before it is too late.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1001
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 21:29:52 -
[2] - Quote
Well said, your lordship. |
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
395
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 21:33:27 -
[3] - Quote
Do you Think that Concessions Must be made ?
Or do you Think that a White Peace would be Acceptable ? |
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
24818
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 21:34:06 -
[4] - Quote
Try to invade their high sec. What happens? You die. You're not ending anyone.
Give it a few months and another nul or power bloc will just come and sway the tide, as it's always been like.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
269
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 21:37:46 -
[5] - Quote
Synthetic Cultist wrote:Do you Think that Concessions Must be made ?
Or do you Think that a White Peace would be Acceptable ?
I see no reason that Amarr would accept a White Peace that included the survival of the Shakor regime. We can afford this war far more than we can afford giving that madman breathing space for another all or nothing surprise attack gamble.
Should the Shakorite regime be removed, then I personally might be in favor of a less punitive end to the war.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
70
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 21:49:16 -
[6] - Quote
Sure. End slavery and we'll talk. Until then, not so much. |
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
396
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 21:59:34 -
[7] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Sure. End slavery and we'll talk. Until then, not so much.
Would You accept handing Shakor over for Trial, in Return for the accelerated End of Generational Slavery ? |
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
24818
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:00:26 -
[8] - Quote
Oooooh now it gets good.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
273
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:07:23 -
[9] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Sure. End slavery and we'll talk. Until then, not so much.
These sorts of demands miss the point entirely. The Republic cannot win this war. You have nothing to enforce your demands with.
We can talk in circles all day about the morality of slavery and accomplish exactly nothing. But that is not the issue here. The issue here is the simple fact that the Republic is hurt far more by this war than we are.
The road towards peace is the only road that ends in the survival of the Republic. But that road involves giving up on the idea that our culture of slave-holding somehow invalidates any treaty the Republic might sign with us.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
24823
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:10:48 -
[10] - Quote
You can't win either.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
71
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:14:10 -
[11] - Quote
Then there is nothing to talk about. While my people are held in slavery, I will fight. If this ends tomorrow or a hundred years from now, with the end of slavery or the end of all who fight against it doesn't really matter. If you seek peace, end slavery or end us. I suspect ending slavery will be easier than ending immortals. |
Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
719
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:16:52 -
[12] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I suspect ending slavery will be easier than ending immortals.
Actually that's where you're wrong. The end of slavery, should it ever come about, won't be an easy feat. Destroying capsuleer soft clones is far easier.
-Eran
|
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
24835
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:18:43 -
[13] - Quote
Cause accessing those is simple am I right?
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
274
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:20:32 -
[14] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Then there is nothing to talk about. While my people are held in slavery, I will fight. If this ends tomorrow or a hundred years from now, with the end of slavery or the end of all who fight against it doesn't really matter. If you seek peace, end slavery or end us. I suspect ending slavery will be easier than ending immortals.
How quickly you condemn the trillions of non-immortal Republic citizens whose lives are risked by the continuation of this losing war!
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
24835
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:22:51 -
[15] - Quote
How quickly you ignore an inconvenient truth. It's like that one holo where the female lead gets thrown basic facts that kinda mess up the standard fairy tale. 'You can't just marry a man you just met!'
You can't just end a war, or kill soft clones, etc, etc.
Oh well.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
72
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:23:17 -
[16] - Quote
I don't negotiate with hostage takers and terrorists, Lok'ri. |
Erin Savonarola
Viziam
Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:23:35 -
[17] - Quote
While the exact terms will be left up to the Empress, I can safely say that peace will be an improvement. The CEMWPA needs to be rescinded, immediately; it was a huge overstep of their authority. Just that would be a mighty step to a peaceful and prosperous cluster. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1001
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:25:22 -
[18] - Quote
Anslo wrote:You can't win either.
Not without definitive victory conditions.
But a stalemate hurts the Republic more than it hurts us, which is Lord Admiral Lok'ri's whole point.
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Then there is nothing to talk about. While my people are held in slavery, I will fight. If this ends tomorrow or a hundred years from now, with the end of slavery or the end of all who fight against it doesn't really matter. If you seek peace, end slavery or end us. I suspect ending slavery will be easier than ending immortals. How quickly you condemn the trillions of non-immortal Republic citizens whose lives are risked by the continuation of this losing war!
Based on Del'thul's history, she'd slit their throats herself.
Better dead than on your knes, right, Del'thul? |
Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
720
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:26:12 -
[19] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Cause accessing those is simple am I right?
It's been done more often than slavery has been ended.
-Eran |
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
24848
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:27:38 -
[20] - Quote
Eran Mintor wrote:Anslo wrote:Cause accessing those is simple am I right? It's been done more often than slavery has been ended. -Eran
Ayyyy
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
72
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:43:26 -
[21] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:
Based on Del'thul's history, she'd slit their throats herself.
Better dead than on your knees, right Del'thul?
To die on your feet rather than live on your knees? Certainly, but that's a personal choice of mine. You still seem to have bought into the hyperbole and myth of past events rather than the truth of what happened, little kin. If you are ever interested in finding out what really happened back then, feel free to contact me. If it is easier for you to make up something that fits your view of how the world should be and how The Big Bad Enemies should behave, that is of course your choice.
Either way, it matters little. The conditions for peace are known. Work towards them or not. I have done more than enough to mark me a villain that it doesn't really matter if I am saddled with the propaganda of the past as well. |
Tyrel Toov
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
182
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 22:53:26 -
[22] - Quote
**** waving, again? seriously, arn't there more pressing issues then who controls a small region of space that CONCORD and the empires don't even care about?
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4340
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 23:13:28 -
[23] - Quote
With respect, Lord Lok'ri, the State and the Federation were able to find a measure of peace from their own iteration of the attacks you mentioned because both sides were happy to talk peace and make concessions.
What you are talking about is a surrender. It's very unlikely to happen - especially when you do nothing to assuage their feelings about those slaves they see as kin and the price is FURTHER economic damage to those Minmatar outside the Empire. Frankly, demanding economic concessions is petty. Don't you understand that the more onerous you make the peace, the more acceptable you make the war?
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
24869
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 23:22:25 -
[24] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:With respect, Lord Lok'ri, the State and the Federation were able to find a measure of peace from their own iteration of the attacks you mentioned because both sides were happy to talk peace and make concessions.
What you are talking about is a surrender. It's very unlikely to happen - especially when you do nothing to assuage their feelings about those slaves they see as kin and the price is FURTHER economic damage to those Minmatar outside the Empire. Frankly, demanding economic concessions is petty. Don't you understand that the more onerous you make the peace, the more acceptable you make the war?
Tuulinen for President.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Evi Polevhia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
684
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 23:46:08 -
[25] - Quote
Tuulinen for Empress. |
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
24874
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 23:47:27 -
[26] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Tuulinen for Empress.
Tuulinen for Presempress.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
165
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 23:50:00 -
[27] - Quote
A few months ago wasn't the 24th crusade on the verge of being over run? You've had control for a total of what? Three days? Maybe 4? Are you dangling this "easy way out" to hide the fact you know the Tribal Liberation Front will be back once again to put you slavers back in your place? I don't recall the TLF having to gloat this much about their victories, why do you?
To sum it up, Your false bravado is showing, might want to cover up... |
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
24874
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 23:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
SHOTS FIRED DEITRA WHY SO FIERCE
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
165
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 23:53:16 -
[29] - Quote
I have my reasons.... |
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
24874
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 23:53:54 -
[30] - Quote
I LIKE
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Erin Savonarola
Viziam
Amarr Empire
34
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 00:05:23 -
[31] - Quote
End the CEMWPA, return to the pre-YC110 borders, and once the shooting has stopped, we can work on a long term solution. |
Alexa de'Crux
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
26
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 00:14:48 -
[32] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
If it is easier for you to make up something that fits your view of how the world should be and how The Big Bad Enemies should behave, that is of course your choice.
I am not the most...adept person, when it comes to language, but I believe that this qualifies as 'irony'... |
Kyoko Sakoda
Sakoda Security Services
184
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 00:27:03 -
[33] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:With respect, Lord Lok'ri, the State and the Federation were able to find a measure of peace from their own iteration of the attacks you mentioned because both sides were happy to talk peace and make concessions.
What you are talking about is a surrender. It's very unlikely to happen - especially when you do nothing to assuage their feelings about those slaves they see as kin and the price is FURTHER economic damage to those Minmatar outside the Empire. Frankly, demanding economic concessions is petty. Don't you understand that the more onerous you make the peace, the more acceptable you make the war?
I would be honored to fly alongside you any day, Tuulinen. Just for making this reply. |
Ayallah
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
312
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 01:00:02 -
[34] - Quote
I do not think anyone would object to the ending of this war by proxy. It would be already if not for mercenary coalitions, PMC's, privateers, and arms dealers lobbying CONCORD.
The war Amarr started on the Day of Darkness however, will live far longer.
-áFear The Tribes
|
Erin Savonarola
Viziam
Amarr Empire
35
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 01:28:44 -
[35] - Quote
With regards to the temporary domination of the Amarr/Minmatar warzone. It is just that, temporary. Tomorrow, or the next day the Minmatar will take a system back and then another. The war will never end; it's designed to never end. That is the great tragedy of this conflict and why I call for an end to it. There is no chance for victory, just an endless slaughter of lives.
I do not speak for the Empress or her Privy Council. I do not know what conditions they will set for peace. I will, however, accept and support whatever conditions they decide upon. I do urge them to recognize that this Forever War is pointless and should be ended as soon as possible.
Similarly, I would hope that the new Tribal government recognizes that this conflict will not actually 'free the slaves.' It's been going strong now for over half a decade. Warzone control has shifted back and forth more times than can really be counted. And still, nothing has changed. It could go for another century, and still, nothing will change. All that is happening is the Tribes are wasting treasure that could be used to improve the lives of their people. Worse, the Tribes are wasting lives.
Every day this war drags on is a tragedy. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
282
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 01:30:20 -
[36] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:With respect, Lord Lok'ri, the State and the Federation were able to find a measure of peace from their own iteration of the attacks you mentioned because both sides were happy to talk peace and make concessions.
What you are talking about is a surrender. It's very unlikely to happen - especially when you do nothing to assuage their feelings about those slaves they see as kin and the price is FURTHER economic damage to those Minmatar outside the Empire. Frankly, demanding economic concessions is petty. Don't you understand that the more onerous you make the peace, the more acceptable you make the war?
Removing Shakor from power is the only concession I have specifically mentioned. As far as I personally am concerned everything else is negotiable. This is hardly a surrender.
But we cannot talk peace while the Republic maintains its claim to be able to ignore treaties and launch surprise attacks. There is no value in treaties with people like Shakor, who consider said treaties to be effectively meaningless.
And make no mistake. We are winning this war. For the CEWPA to benefit the Republic they would need to be consistently winning the war. Breaking even is not enough for a relatively weak state like the Republic. They need to be outright winning for month after month. As is, for the last year, they have been losing more often than they have been winning. They cannot afford this.
And I am not talking about a surrender. I am talking about the steps that the Republic needs to take to avoid having to surrender. Rebuking their current leadership for getting them into this stupid war in the first place is a vital step for any peaceful end.
But if they maintain their unwavering hostility to Amarr, then they may very well end up facing conditions where an actual surrender is the only option.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
83
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 02:40:06 -
[37] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Sure. End slavery and we'll talk. Until then, not so much. These sorts of demands miss the point entirely. The Republic cannot win this war. You have nothing to enforce your demands with. We can talk in circles all day about the morality of slavery and accomplish exactly nothing. But that is not the issue here. The issue here is the simple fact that the Republic is hurt far more by this war than we are. The road towards peace is the only road that ends in the survival of the Republic. But that road involves giving up on the idea that our culture of slave-holding somehow invalidates any treaty the Republic might sign with us.
What makes you think the Republic stands alone? As Del'Thul states: there can only be peace when the Empire releases its prisoners and accepts basic human rights. As to being able to afford this war... the Federation can. |
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
427
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 02:48:16 -
[38] - Quote
While the Republics share of the warzone might comprise 15% of it's territory, it likely comprises 1% or less of it's total population. On both sides, all that's at stake are half-developed backwater colonies that were already in likely terrible economic conditions before the war tore apart what little prosperity they were able to make for themselves. They are the only ones who truly suffer in this affair.
It is a mistake to think this war is strangling the Republic, or it's government. In fact, all reports suggest that it's economy on their worlds is soaring on the wave of resurgent nationalism and patriotism. The Republic is not a frail entity on the verge of collapse as you seem to be painting it - The conflict barely truly touches it, just as it barely truly touches the Empire. Shakor is in power because he realizes this, and is able to profit from it both literally and politically. He knows what the people want, and gives it to them in such a way that does not endanger himself, with only a small price in blood.
Men like Shakor are a symptom, not a cause, lord Lok'ri. A moss in ichor, an infection that is begotten by a wound. Asking the Matari to throw him from his throne is pointless, because so long as the Republic is bordered by a power that holds it's citizens relatives and kinsmen in bondage and makes threatening overtures with regularity, another one will simply appear in his place, and start everything again.
If the war is to end, both the Empire and the Republic will need to change, not simply one or the other. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1006
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 02:58:31 -
[39] - Quote
We changed quite a bit over the last century. Those changes were met with the breaking of treaties and invasions.
That doesn't give much incentive to continue to change, particularly when this war the Republic started doesn't actually threaten the Empire in any way.
If the Republic had wanted change to continue in the Empire, they were more likely to get it through Midular's diplomacy, not Shakor's belligerence. By Shakor carrying a hardline stance, he will only be encouraging the Empire to respond with a hardline stance. |
Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
83
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 03:08:07 -
[40] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:We changed quite a bit over the last century. Those changes were met with the breaking of treaties and invasions.
That doesn't give much incentive to continue to change, particularly when this war the Republic started doesn't actually threaten the Empire in any way.
If the Republic had wanted change to continue in the Empire, they were more likely to get it through Midular, not Shakor. By Shakor carrying a hardline stance, he will only be encouraging the Empire to respond with a hardline stance.
How many more prisoners would have to die under Amarrian rule? the war liberated tens of millions of slaves, Jamyl's move was a political gesture, and one she can always simply repeal.
|
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
427
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 03:09:41 -
[41] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:We changed quite a bit over the last century. Those changes were met with the breaking of treaties and invasions.
That doesn't give much incentive to continue to change, particularly when this war the Republic started doesn't actually threaten the Empire in any way.
If the Republic had wanted change to continue in the Empire, they were more likely to get it through Midular, not Shakor. By Shakor carrying a hardline stance, he will only be encouraging the Empire to respond with a hardline stance.
The point Lord Lok'ri has made here is that this war does not actually accomplish anything for the Republic. It's a waste of time, lives, and resources. And as Mr. Toov pointed out, it prevents the involved parties from focusing on more pressing issues. As a method of trying to enforce demands on the Empire, it's an awfully poor one. The Republic stands to benefit more by ending it than continuing it.
I'm aware of all this, miss Kernher. It doesn't change anything, though - The simple fact is that the Empire did not change fast enough to prevent enough anger swelling under the surface of the Republic to give birth to the current government. Pointing fingers it's worthless; It is what it is.
At this point, there are only three options. The first is that this conflict simply continues, leading to the death of endless innocents and no real inconvenience to the socities and individuals actually perpetuating it. The second is escalation to total war, which in the modern day of navies of not thousands, but hundreds of thousands, would wear a different, far more horrifying face than it did in the last great wars, and would leave even the victor in utter ruin.
Obviously, neither of these are truly viable options. So the only thing to be done is for compromise on both sides, whether it is fair or not.
And I'd say it's questionable as to if the war is bad for the Republic or not. It is certainly conferring benefit at the moment, economically speaking, even if it's ultimate endgame is unviable. Despite being illogical, militant nationalism is like Vampirism for nations; It is usually very good for you, if you can ignore the fact that it's transformed you into a monster. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
72
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 03:22:21 -
[42] - Quote
The Empire stands to gain more by ending the war and ending slavery than by continuing down the path condemned by New Eden at large, shared only by the most horrendous criminal organizations. I say again, the path to peace is through the end of slavery. It is the one single linchpin that must be handled if you actually want peace. Otherwise, we simply have to accept that the Empire have no interest in peace and act accordingly.
It really is as simple as that. The rest of the discussions around the morality, the practicalities, the ethics, the bloodthirst, the religion and vengeance... it is all simply beating around the bush. While even one of my people remain in slavery, there will be war, official or not. |
Erin Savonarola
Viziam
Amarr Empire
36
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 03:36:18 -
[43] - Quote
The hubris of the other powers of New Eden to think it's their place to dictate Imperial internal policy. Demanding the 'release' of Amarr slaves is a nonstarter. Like every other population, they will be granted Imperial citizenship in due course, when they are ready. It is no more appropriate for the Tribes to tell the Empress how to rule than it would be for the Empire to demand, say, the Minmatar stop exiling those with a bad voluval or the Gallente to pass obscenity laws. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
233
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 03:37:39 -
[44] - Quote
You have to take into account on how the Amarr Empire's economy works however. The Amarr Empire is built on the back of slaves. Slavery is highly ingrained into Amarrian economics. Amarr depends on slaves to do all the hard labour, be it in the agricultural sectors to the manufacturing sectors and etc. If they emancipate all the slaves today, they need to make sweeping, costly changes to how their economy is run, something that probably contributed to their current reluctance (the other reason being religion).
Simply asking the Amarr Empire to end slavery isn't going to change much. Deals had to be sweetened, millenia's worth of indoctrination had to be expunged.
- Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4344
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 06:05:59 -
[45] - Quote
I think I speak for the State when I say that we would be willing to work with our allies if they sought to modernise and improve the efficiency of their infrastructure in order to create better manufacturing, agricultural and industrial processes.
The Empire is an amazing place. During my tour of duty here I have witnessed whole planets so rich in life and gentle that they are wholly dedicated to the laborious hand raising of some of the most inefficient crops. When I think what my ancestors might have become, if they had been lucky enough to be birthed in so gentle a cradle... Well... perhaps it's not entirely a good thing to have it so easy, but to be spared the harsh winters?
I believe the Empire could aspire to more than match the economic and industrial output of the Federations finest forge worlds and farm worlds. The golden fleet could be modernised into a force terrible beyond the dreams of modern Amarrian Admirals. With proper automation, space efficient infrastructure and modern methods the Empire could rise like a phoenix in a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power, and attain heights for the Empress that would make her dwarf her forebears.
Then again, I'm not sure that's what you all want, either, is it?
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
153
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 06:15:35 -
[46] - Quote
The Empress has already said that the Age of Slavery is coming to an end.
Generational slavery that is. I think she might have said something about judicial slavery still being a thing, you know, putting convicted murderers and thieves and such into productive purposes and rehabilitating them, instead of what other places do and just locking them up.
But I think Shakor might have painted himself into a corner, where any kind of concession would completely undermine the image he wants to portray to the people of the Republic and so on.
Maybe those "Elders" can change his mind.
Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/
|
Ayallah
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
314
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 07:04:01 -
[47] - Quote
Louella Dougans wrote:
But I think Shakor might have painted himself into a corner, where any kind of concession would completely undermine the image he wants to portray to the people of the Republic and so on.
He had not done so in any way.
And people seem to forget that he no longer has power in the Republic.
-áFear The Tribes
|
Xindi Kraid
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
881
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 07:08:16 -
[48] - Quote
I find it laughable that people actually think these "Wars" actually mean that much.
The empires aren't fighting them, the capsuleers are, so they aren't suffering the losses and attrition that a real war brings. Yes they do devote some assets to the capsuleer's efforts, but it is very minor, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if more naval assets are destroyed by capsuleers not associated with the militias, but instead working for agents.
There is no reason for the Republic to surrender since they aren't the ones fighting and losing, and even if they were surrendering, the Amarr Empire wouldn't be the one beating them that they'd surrender to. Aside from that, the warzones are cyclical, or has the Amarr milita already forgotten the times the Minmatar aligned capsuleers had THEM beaten back or the fact this situation has reoccurred several times. |
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1804
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 07:10:22 -
[49] - Quote
Yawn. You slavers are so tedious and arrogant. Where do I begin...?
You throw your zombie empress out first then we can talk. Oh, don't like me telling you how to run your affairs? Then how the hell do you think it's ok to dictate to us? Hypocritical, arrogant fools.
The war will continue in this back and forth manner as long as CONCORD sanctions it. You have control now but that will change within a couple months time, trust me.
We can afford to fund the war as long as necessary, make no mistake about that. We can and will fight to the last person so long as you persist in your so-called reclaiming campaign.
Finally, when we had total control of the warzone a few months ago we were smart enough to know it wouldn't last. We didn't come onto the IGS proclaiming victory or demanding your peoples' capitulation. Show a little class and common sense, slavers.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
|
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1879
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 07:20:33 -
[50] - Quote
People seem to be forgetting that Shakor is an oath-breaker and a war criminal. I would have thought that the Minmatars would be glad to get rid of him so they can begin to earn the respect of the other races.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
234
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 07:28:50 -
[51] - Quote
Louella Dougans wrote:The Empress has already said that the Age of Slavery is coming to an end.
Generational slavery that is. I think she might have said something about judicial slavery still being a thing, you know, putting convicted murderers and thieves and such into productive purposes and rehabilitating them, instead of what other places do and just locking them up.
But I think Shakor might have painted himself into a corner, where any kind of concession would completely undermine the image he wants to portray to the people of the Republic and so on.
Maybe those "Elders" can change his mind.
What 'Elders'?
- Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
|
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
282
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 07:31:51 -
[52] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:
Finally, when we had total control of the warzone a few months ago we were smart enough to know it wouldn't last. We didn't come onto the IGS proclaiming victory or demanding your peoples' capitulation. Show a little class and common sense, slavers.
This is a minor point, barely relating to the overall issue, but you have never had *total* control of the warzone.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Ridha Shakir
Gradient
7
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 07:42:07 -
[53] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:People seem to be forgetting that Shakor is an oath-breaker and a war criminal. I would have thought that the Minmatars would be glad to get rid of him so they can begin to earn the respect of the other races.
What makes you think that we actually care whether or not the Amarrians respect us? |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5174
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 07:44:29 -
[54] - Quote
Gaven, your speeches are as empty as Jade Constantine's - using far too many words to say far too little, and convincing no-one outside the dupes and dolts that follow you. Get this through your head, and accept it as truth - the Minmatar will not be surrendering to you. You will not be dictating terms to them, you will not be receiving concessions from them and you will most certainly not be dictating any staff changes within their government. Accept this, or stay silent - the IGS is full of enough delusions as it is. And just so you know - PIE as an alliance can barely keep its combat efficiency above 65% so you're hardly in a position to represent the supposed military strength of the Empire.
The Federation lost all of our contested territory for six months and the economic and political impact was at worst an impediment, not a culture-threatening cataclysm - and we actually lost one of our founding nation's homeworlds. The humanitarian impact of the Caldari occupation was famine warnings on some of our planets because Heth's forces were intentionally destroying essential supply convoys.
You know where the real economic impact was? On the State, once they lost control of Federation territory when we liberated it from their control and restored its rightful sovereignty. They'd invested so much money in "development rights" to our systems - which no-one involved in this matter ever had a right to sell, as those rights belong exclusively to the Federal citizens who live there, under the auspices of Federal Administration - that when we took them back, which no-one among the Caldari leadership at the time had ever, in their monumental hubris, imagined that we might do, the Caldari economy almost flatlined. It took a massive injection of raw capital from the Empire to stop the State from bankrupting itself. Between this massive economic crisis and the aftermath of Heth's malfesence and inept mismanagement of State resources, the Caldari still haven't returned their economy to pre-war levels of prosperity as of yet.
Who'll bail the Empire out if it ruins its own economy trying to exploit Minmatar systems?
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5174
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 07:46:43 -
[55] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:People seem to be forgetting that Shakor is an oath-breaker and a war criminal.
Not according to CONCORD, whose opinion is the only one that matters in the case of "war criminals."
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
234
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 08:18:47 -
[56] - Quote
It did kind of help that the Republic had, basically, abandoned the warzone systems in all but name. Remember Pike's Landing? Only reason why there's even Matari presence there until that time the Amarr somehow managed to take it temporarily was because of one stubborn general. He wasn't even supported by the greater Republic.
Goes to show just how much the Republic cares about the warzone. In fact, the warzone was, has, and always will be a farce. At least on the Amarr-Minmatar front. It's just there to keep us capsuleers occupied and, technically, under the thumbs of the Empires.
The warzone is nothing more than a playground for mercenaries and privateers. Nothing more than that.
- Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
|
Kalaratiri
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
427
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 08:36:29 -
[57] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:
The warzone is nothing more than a playground for mercenaries and privateers. Nothing more than that.
And a very profitable one it is too.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. -á- CCP Falcon
|
Marus Sulla
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
34
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 09:54:38 -
[58] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote: [SNIP]
If the Republic had wanted change to continue in the Empire, they were more likely to get it through Midular's diplomacy, not Shakor's belligerence. By Shakor carrying a hardline stance, he will only be encouraging the Empire to respond with a hardline stance.
[SNIP]
Midular was at the head of an appeasement Government which achieved nothing and was proven to be riddled with traitors. The Elder fleet however returned the Starmanir and Nefatar to us. A giant step forward in the Long War. Recent events in the Bleak Lands are just a small step backwards.
Marus
MM Recruitment is open.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=386561
http://masuataa.org/
|
Kalaratiri
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
427
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 10:30:43 -
[59] - Quote
Marus Sulla wrote: Recent events in the Bleak Lands are just a small step backwards.
Don't forget Metropolis.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. -á- CCP Falcon
|
Miyamoto Takedi
State Protectorate
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 10:38:35 -
[60] - Quote
I have yet to finish reading this thread, but simply looking at the historical timeline of events I can see no reason for the OP to call for the handover of a man who only took a position of power after the events he is being blamed for.
The one who was in power at the time, is dead.
The fleets in question were disavowed by both the Republic navy and Republic government.
To call for the handover, apparently for execution, of the current leader of the Republic, for acts performed by a group apparently not under their control is the equivalent of the Federation demanding that Amarr hand over their Empress for the invasion of their space under Karsoth's watch.
Complete nonsense. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5174
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 11:25:16 -
[61] - Quote
Miyamoto Takedi wrote:To call for the handover, apparently for execution, of the current leader of the Republic, for acts performed by a group apparently not under their control is the equivalent of the Federation demanding that Amarr hand over their Empress for the invasion of their space under Karsoth's watch.
Well, actually, the ill-fated invasion of Solitude did happen under Sarum's watch.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
723
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 12:17:10 -
[62] - Quote
Marus Sulla wrote:
Midular was at the head of an appeasement Government which achieved nothing and was proven to be riddled with traitors. The Elder fleet however returned the Starmanir and Nefatar to us. A giant step forward in the Long War. Recent events in the Bleak Lands are just a small step backwards.
Marus
Midular was a rallying cry not too long ago that caused the Republic to attack its only ally, surely you're giving her less credit than she deserves. You say she was the head of an appeasement government--coming from a member of Ushra'khan, you'd probably be kicked if you said otherwise. Midular was a leader who cared deeply for her people and worked at the dawn of the Minmatar Nation to try to stabilize and build a good future for the tribes. She focused on securing borders and creating a respectable image for her people. Her reluctance to strike wasn't a bad thing. Likely she saw the futility of it--though I doubt she predicted we'd be in such the state we are now. Some people, myself included, were too naive, ignorant, or plain stupid to realize the wisdom in her guidance until too late; some were even blind 'till after she died when suddenly her popularity surged.
Shakor is an old warlord, a respected one no less. His pride caused him to refuse fixing his sight, and some people seem to pity him for his blindness. The reality is the man is a capsuleer and has no need for sight. He lives to kill Amarr. He returned two tribes which remain almost complete outcasts and have to fight to even be considered equals in the 'Republic'. He betrayed the trust from his only ally, the Gallente, and murdered several thousand Federals, Minmatar-blood included, because he has a bad temper. The only thing he has done that I might argue as a good thing is pushing the government more in line with Minmatar ideals, but even then there is a sizable minority who disagree in some way with these changes.
This Pendulum War continues and may never see an end. The war begets more hate which only gives more excuses for young souls to be lost in the void. To say the Minmatar people are in a better place now with Shakor would require even more faith than some zealous Amarr have. You hope that this war will bring about the end of slavery. You hope that the Minmatar people will continue to put their lives into the fray. Eventually the statistics will break through the propaganda. Far more lives are lost in this proxy war than have been freed. And all for what? Some seem to have such a closed mind that this is the only answer.
-Eran |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5175
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 15:16:57 -
[63] - Quote
If people like Shakor really are a blight on this cluster - an assertion which in itself is largely a matter of opinion - then it is a blight that the Amarr have inflicted upon us. As I have said in this thread and a previous one, it was Amarr that sewed the seeds of the vast majority of the hardships they face today. Shakor is the fruit of Amarr's labours, just as much as the rebellion and the rise of the Republic, and before that, the Starkmanir uprising. Ultimately, were it not for the Amarr, there would be no Shakor.
Sometimes, I see people attempt to draw parallels between the slavery of the Minmatar and the cultural subjugation of the Caldari in the early years of the Federation. I'll be the first to admit the Federation made a massive screwup in how we treated the Caldari, but whenever anyone brings this up, it is never without massive disingenuity. There is a fundamental difference which is worth commenting on : no matter what strife lay in their shared future, the first contact the Caldari had with the Gallente was peaceful. The citizens of Caldari Prime were a prosperous industrial age society who were visited by a technologically superior culture who nonetheless contacted them and introduced themselves in peace. The Caldari were not seen as too primitive to understand us. I will not go so far as to say that the Gallente treated them as equals, but the first Gallente who ever came to Caldari Prime came there in peace. Our mistakes - and there were many - were made far later.
The first contact any Minmatar had with the Amarr were monsters coming out of the black to literally steal their children. The Amarr never even attempted peaceful first contact with the Minmatar - their first response was military conquest and subjugation. The Minmatar never had a chance to develop any other opinion of the Amarr than of brutual conquerers, come to force them to toil for the Empire. For seven hundred years, depsite very clear indications the Minmatar made to the Amarr at every possibile opportunity they were given that they wanted nothing to do with Amarrian culture or religion and desired only to be free of the Empire, the Empire ignored their desires, murdered their kin, attempted to erase their culture and even perverted their very genetic lineage.
From the very moment of first contact, the Minmatar were at war with the Empire. Until a century ago, they knew literally nothing else.
A century ago, the Minmatar finally managed to exploit a moment of weakness - much like the Amarr had done seven hundred years previously - to seize back their freedom, but it took a long, bitter war to do so, and even once they were free, all was not well with the Minmatar. They had to deal with the consequences of seven hundred years of abuse, mistreatment and slavery - indellible cultural and psychological scars that cast a shadow on every aspect of the Republic. Their culture was shattered, pieces of it lost to time or the intentional erasure of the Empire. They were forced to build a functioning civilian society, military and economy essentially from scratch, having not been allowed to develop any of these things on their own under the Empire.
All of this would have been hard enough had they had the opportunity to do it in isolation - however, the Empire was still there. The Empire that had come out of the black seven hundred years ago to kill, pillage and enslave was still there, still looking down upon them, still refusing to treat them as equals, still refusing to apologise for the endless array of atrocities it had inflicted upon them. And then, and then, the fledgling Minmatar Republic was subjected to perhaps with perhaps the most horrific insult of all.
They were that they were being the unreasonable ones, and the Amarr were a dignified, harmonious society desiring only peace and tranquility.
For a century, the Minmatar have had to labour not only under the monolithic task of reconstructing their culture and society, but through every step of the process they have been subject to the Empire's level best attempts to hinder and degrade it. The Empire claims moral superiority at every turn while still keeping a third of the Minmatar people in slavery, while still refusing to provide reparations for the seven hundred years of abuse the Minmatar people have suffered, and most importantly, while still failing to adjust their attitude towards the Minmatar.
You see, the thing is, the Minmatar know that the Amarr didn't sue for peace a century ago out of the goodness of their hearts. They did it because the geopolitics of the time dictated that continuing to war with the Minmatar after the disaster at Vak'Atioth and a peace agreement looming between the Gallente and the Caldari would leave the Empire in very serious danger of an attack by the Federation. But this didn't represent a change in the attutide of the Amarr - it took years for the Empire to even concede to allowing the Republic delegation a chair at the negotiating table (not to mention that they briefly considered attempting to enslave the Caldari). Everyone was implicitly aware the Amarr were not negotiating peace for peace's sake, but peace for the sake of waiting for a more tactically advantageous state of affairs.
Perhaps the Amarr might have some small amount of justification to act upset by Shakor's actions, but they have no justification whatsoever to act surprised that men like him hold sway with the Minmatar.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Erin Savonarola
Viziam
Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 15:41:15 -
[64] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:
You throw your zombie empress out first then we can talk. Oh, don't like me telling you how to run your affairs? Then how the hell do you think it's ok to dictate to us? Hypocritical, arrogant fools.
I don't. Internal affairs of the sovereign Tribal Republic is a purely Minmatar function. That was the agreed upon stance of the CONCORD Treaties and still the official stance of the Imperial government.
The issue that concerns the Empire is that we do not wish to be attacked again, which I am sure is understandable. Some of my fellow Amarr have seized upon Shakor's removal as the key to Imperial security. I am sure that if other guarantees of safety for the Empire can be obtained.
|
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
284
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 16:04:01 -
[65] - Quote
Miyamoto Takedi wrote:I have yet to finish reading this thread, but simply looking at the historical timeline of events I can see no reason for the OP to call for the handover of a man who only took a position of power after the events he is being blamed for.
The one who was in power at the time, is dead.
Your understanding of recent history is rather skewed.
The events in question were what led to the rise of Shakor to power. Those "disavowed" fleets, the invasion, and a wave of assassinations were his tools for taking over the Republic.
The sin of the prior government was being too naive in their dealings with the radical warmongers such as Shakor and allowing them to prepare their dastardly surprise attack, and they paid for that sin with their lives as Shakor's people killed them.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5176
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 16:16:21 -
[66] - Quote
Erin Savonarola wrote:I don't. Internal affairs of the sovereign Tribal Republic is a purely Minmatar function. That was the agreed upon stance of the CONCORD Treaties and still the official stance of the Imperial government.
The issue that concerns the Empire is that we do not wish to be attacked again, which I am sure is understandable. Some of my fellow Amarr have seized upon Shakor's removal as the key to Imperial security. I am sure that if other guarantees of safety for the Empire can be obtained.
There are certainly measures that can ensure the Empire's safety.
The question remains if the Empire is willing to make the sacrifices in pride neccesary to renounce the Reclaiming and free the rest of the enslaved Minmatar.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
169
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 16:36:59 -
[67] - Quote
They'll never give up the Reclaiming, its too far implanted in their culture to ever be removed. Without that gone the fear is still there, and how can there be peace with that looming over our heads. I've said it once and I'll say it again, History repeats itself... |
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
430
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 16:54:19 -
[68] - Quote
I don't see the need for the conceptual abandonment of the Reclaiming, so long as the Empire ceases to be a militantly expansionist state - Most religions have some sort of imperative for them to be spread. If their God does exist and truly favours them as is described in the Scriptures, then evidently, they will eventually convert the whole of the cluster peacefully, as is described in the Pax Amarria.
And if they don't, well, I'm sure they'll find a way to reconcile the implications themselves. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1880
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 17:07:48 -
[69] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:People seem to be forgetting that Shakor is an oath-breaker and a war criminal. Not according to CONCORD, whose opinion is the only one that matters in the case of "war criminals."
CONCORD is also fine with slavery.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
172
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 17:11:29 -
[70] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:I don't see the need for the conceptual abandonment of the Reclaiming, so long as the Empire renounces military expansionism - Most religions have some sort of imperative for them to be spread. If their God does exist and truly favours them as is described in the Scriptures, then evidently, they will eventually convert the whole of the cluster peacefully, as is described in the Pax Amarria.
And if they don't, well, I'm sure they'll find a way to reconcile the implications themselves.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken on my understanding of this, but the whole point of it is to conquer. Whether it is on a cultural or military standpoint, conquest is the goal. Yes all religions seek new followers, not all see the world as children in need of a father figure. Not all look to discipline their new followers for not being indoctrinated at birth. We all have our struggles in life, we all have our own path we must follow, Why do they need to create burdens? Why diminish the path set for us at birth, only to give nothing in return? |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5176
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 17:27:48 -
[71] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:CONCORD is also fine with slavery.
So, like everyone else, you're willing to take the bits of CONCORD you like and discard the rest? Glad to see yet another example of how Amarrians really aren't better than anyone else.
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:I don't see the need for the conceptual abandonment of the Reclaiming, so long as the Empire renounces military expansionism - Most religions have some sort of imperative for them to be spread. If their God does exist and truly favours them as is described in the Scriptures, then evidently, they will eventually convert the whole of the cluster peacefully, as is described in the Pax Amarria.
And if they don't, well, I'm sure they'll find a way to reconcile the implications themselves.
The idea of the entirety of humanity sharing one culture is pretty damn horrific regardless of how it's achieved. Talk to Stitcher about his opinion on cultural homogenisation sometime.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Karynn Denton
Clan Katanga Caravan
339
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 18:10:18 -
[72] - Quote
What's with all the peacenik nonsense?
Should I jack in the combat-enhancer trade and start selling flowery garlands instead?
Start shooting each other in the face again, ffs!
Karynn Denton
Caravan Master
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1006
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 18:18:43 -
[73] - Quote
Anyone who could seriously ask for Amarr to renounce the Reclaiming has no understanding of Amarr or our faith at all. The Reclaiming does not always need to be conducted by war, but the principle itself is never going away. It governs everything we do and everything we are.
The whole point of it is to bring the universe to a state closer to God. To Reclaim those that have fallen, to Reclaim our souls from the sins and temptations that have festered, to Reclaim the knowledge and wisdom that have been lost in dark ages.
It is the quest for improvement, both within and without.
The Reclaiming isn't going away. Argue against war, argue against slavery, argue against vitoc and TCMCs, argue against so many other things, some that we might even agree to, but to argue against the Reclaiming is a battle that you will not win. Amarr has changed enough to suit the demands of foreigners over the last century.
Also, anyone who honestly expects Amarr to make any concessions whatsoever in the face of an illegal invasion in defiance of interstellar treaties has no understanding of diplomacy or politics. To make concessions to such an invasion is to say that breaking treaties is an acceptable way to get what you want. It would only encourage the Republic to do the same at a later date, knowing that they would be able to get further concessions. It encourages the viewing of treaties as disposable. This is an area where it would be absurd on every level for us to offer up anything. For the war to end, the Republic and only the Republic can be the ones to end it. If they are unwilling to own up to their own dishonor, then so be it, the war will continue.
Diplomacy achieved change in Amarr. This war does not and will not.
That we even have to argue this point is unbelievable. The Republic attacked CONCORD, not just the Empire. Every single CONCORD signatory should have been calling for the Republic's immediate dismissal from the organization for their treachery. CONCORD itself has due cause to consider the Republic a rogue state. At the very least we all should have imposed sanctions. Same thing for the State's invasion of the Federation, by the way. |
Erin Savonarola
Viziam
Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 18:24:21 -
[74] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Erin Savonarola wrote:I don't. Internal affairs of the sovereign Tribal Republic is a purely Minmatar function. That was the agreed upon stance of the CONCORD Treaties and still the official stance of the Imperial government.
The issue that concerns the Empire is that we do not wish to be attacked again, which I am sure is understandable. Some of my fellow Amarr have seized upon Shakor's removal as the key to Imperial security. I am sure that if other guarantees of safety for the Empire can be obtained. The question remains if the Empire is willing to make the sacrifices in pride necessary to renounce the Reclaiming and free the rest of the enslaved Minmatar.
The Empire already recognizes the Republic as a sovereign entity. The CONCORD treaties affirm this. We have already renounced the idea of a military Reclamation.
As far as the enslaved Minmatar in the Empire, we will govern our people as we see fit. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5179
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 18:30:47 -
[75] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Amarr has changed enough to suit the demands of foreigners over the last century.
No it hasn't, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Erin Savonarola
Viziam
Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 18:37:26 -
[76] - Quote
We're under no obligation to change, at all. |
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
173
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 18:46:30 -
[77] - Quote
Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace... |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1008
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 18:53:14 -
[78] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace...
Aside from the fact that the Republic was better off and safer before the war, as a trade and diplomatic partner with the Empire. |
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
25154
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 18:55:11 -
[79] - Quote
Boy this is going in more circles than an exotic atom in a particle accelerator. Only this circle doesn't end in smashing. It goes forever.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Tyrel Toov
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
185
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 19:01:42 -
[80] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Boy this is going in more circles than an exotic atom in a particle accelerator. Only this circle doesn't end in smashing. It goes forever.
It is the thread that never ends,
yes it goes on an on my friends,
some people started posting in it not knowing what it was,
and they'll continue posting forever just because,
It is the thread that never ends....
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Katy Moore
J. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
15
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 19:02:17 -
[81] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:I
the Minmatar know that the Amarr didn't sue for peace a century ago out of the goodness of their hearts.
The Amarr Empire never sued for peace with the Minmatar Republic.
After restoring order, Emperor Heideran declared peace, because he knew the cost to the civilian populations would be unacceptable.
Then, when the Federation, the Caldari State, and even the Jove Empire began the project that was to become CONCORD, and hardline Holders objected to the Emperor Heideran's decision to enter these negotiations, which ultimately recognised the Republic as an entity.
Then, in a political masterstroke, the Emperor Heideran appointed a Sarumite Holder as the representative to CONCORD, to which the hardliners were unable to object, without insulting themselves.
So, it was out of the goodness of the great Emperor Heideran's heart, that peace was achieved.
And then Shakor goes and ruins all of that.
I have spoken before, on the possibility of peace between the Empire and the Republic.
Those arguments remain valid.
I would suggest Shakor be placed under house arrest in Yulai, and banned from real time electronic communication with the rest of the cluster.
This would end his malignant influence over the Republic, and allow a peace settlement that is not an obvious delaying action. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
83
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 19:27:40 -
[82] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Deitra Vess wrote:Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace... Aside from the fact that the Republic was better off and safer before the war, as a trade and diplomatic partner with the Empire.
At the cost of countless suffering under the Empire yoke. While I do not have high thoughts of the Republic, I think most of its denizens would consider that too high a price to pay. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1880
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 19:30:51 -
[83] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:CONCORD is also fine with slavery. So, like everyone else, you're willing to take the bits of CONCORD you like and discard the rest? Glad to see yet another example of how Amarrians really aren't better than anyone else.
No, merely pointing out that's what you were doing.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4351
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 19:37:36 -
[84] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace...
I know you're a combat pilot, so I find it odd that you can't view the constant loss of blood and treasure involved in the wars and not see "any reason to even entertain the idea of peace". As a Minmatar Capsuleer, I know that you are insulated from the masses of starving refugees and the poverty and crime and brutality that is a direct result of focusing so much economic output on war production, but still - you can see it. And seeing it, how can you have no "reason to even entertain the idea of peace"?
I understand your need to free your kin but you MUST have somewhere to free them to. Or are you intending to send them all to the Federation while you break the Republic on the rocks of endless war? Since your current approach is achieving very little progress, you would be better served in seeing it as a long term process and prioritising accordingly.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5179
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 20:00:40 -
[85] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:No, merely pointing out that's what you were doing.
All of the years we've known each other, Blake, all I've ever desired of you is that you get down off your high horse and admit that you're just like the rest of us.
One of these days, with words or with force, I will compel you to do so. That is an ironclad promise. That day will come and you should prepare for it.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Havohej
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
123
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 21:12:02 -
[86] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:No, merely pointing out that's what you were doing. All of the years we've known each other, Blake, all I've ever desired of you is that you get down off your high horse and admit that you're just like the rest of us. One of these days, with words or with force, I will compel you to do so. That is an ironclad promise. That day will come and you should prepare for it.
When I was locked up in an RSS prison, they had these mandatory "Anger Management" classes we had to sit through.
In these classes, they warned us of "talking yourself into a corner." That is, stating that you will do a thing and thus, no matter how self-destructive (or simply bloody boring) it may be, because you have said a thing before witnesses, you are cornered into having to do that thing.
Of course, deciding later that it isn't worth it, or worse yet, failing in the attempt, leads to a great deal of embarrassment.
Sometimes this embarrassment comes in the form of assholes reminding you years after the fact how you lost to this remote-repping Dominix fleet this one time.
I'd hate to see this happen to you.
Strike us like matches, 'cause everyone deserves the flames.
OOC Forums @ Backstage
|
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1881
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 22:09:57 -
[87] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:No, merely pointing out that's what you were doing. All of the years we've known each other, Blake, all I've ever desired of you is that you get down off your high horse and admit that you're just like the rest of us. One of these days, with words or with force, I will compel you to do so. That is an ironclad promise. That day will come and you should prepare for it.
Only when you admit that deep down you're just like me.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
174
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 23:02:53 -
[88] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Deitra Vess wrote:Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace... I know you're a combat pilot, so I find it odd that you can't view the constant loss of blood and treasure involved in the wars and not see "any reason to even entertain the idea of peace". As a Minmatar Capsuleer, I know that you are insulated from the masses of starving refugees and the poverty and crime and brutality that is a direct result of focusing so much economic output on war production, but still - you can see it. And seeing it, how can you have no "reason to even entertain the idea of peace"? I understand your need to free your kin but you MUST have somewhere to free them to. Or are you intending to send them all to the Federation while you break the Republic on the rocks of endless war? Since your current approach is achieving very little progress, you would be better served in seeing it as a long term process and prioritising accordingly.
I was more less responding to Erin. Inflexability should be met with inflexability. If there's no room for compromise there's no reason for striving for peace. Believe me when I say majority of the points you made were clear and on my conscience when I said that, however we shouldn't forget the reasons why we fight to only make peace for ourselves and doom our children.
As far as not having any place to bring them when we finally free our brothers, when we were finally free, we built ourselves back up from nothing. If what you said were the case, we would be starting from a much better point then that. Whatever hardship we would face, we would overcome. We have before, we most certainly will again. |
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
25353
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 23:10:02 -
[89] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Deitra Vess wrote:Nor do we have any reason to even entertain the idea of peace... I know you're a combat pilot, so I find it odd that you can't view the constant loss of blood and treasure involved in the wars and not see "any reason to even entertain the idea of peace". As a Minmatar Capsuleer, I know that you are insulated from the masses of starving refugees and the poverty and crime and brutality that is a direct result of focusing so much economic output on war production, but still - you can see it. And seeing it, how can you have no "reason to even entertain the idea of peace"? I understand your need to free your kin but you MUST have somewhere to free them to. Or are you intending to send them all to the Federation while you break the Republic on the rocks of endless war? Since your current approach is achieving very little progress, you would be better served in seeing it as a long term process and prioritising accordingly. I was more less responding to Erin. Inflexability should be met with inflexability. If there's no room for compromise there's no reason for striving for peace. Believe me when I say majority of the points you made were clear and on my conscience when I said that, however we shouldn't forget the reasons why we fight to only make peace for ourselves and doom our children. As far as not having any place to bring them when we finally free our brothers, when we were finally free, we built ourselves back up from nothing. If what you said were the case, we would be starting from a much better point then that. Whatever hardship we would face, we would overcome. We have before, we most certainly will again.
PREEEEEEAAAAAACH
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
279
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 02:48:13 -
[90] - Quote
Karynn Denton wrote:What's with all the peacenik nonsense?
Should I jack in the combat-enhancer trade and start selling flowery garlands instead?
Start shooting each other in the face again, ffs!
Agreed. I would trade four-fifths of the population of the Empire in war if it meant the total extermination of the filthy Minmatar Republic. |
Tyrel Toov
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
199
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 03:29:51 -
[91] - Quote
hush, Naups. The adults are bickering like children just fine. No need for you to get involved too.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Kellie Dusette
Nighthawk Exploration
Anoikis Ronin
4350
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 03:49:53 -
[92] - Quote
Kellie pings Nauplius's neocom repeatedly.
Pleeeeeeeease Mista Nauplyous.
Noob Alt | Special Dusette | Silly Robot Arm
Collect all 4 Dusette Action Figures (Now available in Thukker Tribe Edition)
Generic Edition | *NEW Fruit Salad Pleasure Hub Edition
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4358
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 04:14:06 -
[93] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:I was more less responding to Erin. Inflexability should be met with inflexability. If there's no room for compromise there's no reason for striving for peace. Believe me when I say majority of the points you made were clear and on my conscience when I said that, however we shouldn't forget the reasons why we fight to only make peace for ourselves and doom our children.
As far as not having any place to bring them when we finally free our brothers, when we were finally free, we built ourselves back up from nothing. If what you said were the case, we would be starting from a much better point then that. Whatever hardship we would face, we would overcome. We have before, we most certainly will again.
Inflexibility should be met with inflexibility. That sounds like a recipe for no progress to me. Besides which, you can say a lot about Sarum's administration but you can't say she's inflexible. She released slaves. Nobody seems terribly interested in WHY or in how she could be persuaded to do so again.
I'll say that again. She released, without negotiation or pretext, millions of slaves to the Republic. Nobody seems terribly interested, however. Most of the Matari I've discussed it with have claimed that the Republic's poor handling of this release of slaves proves that it was, in fact, a cunning ruse to bring down the Republic by giving it a taste of what it wants. Okay, then.
Also, you did not 'build yourselves back up from nothing'. Much of the territory that you took was formerly Amarrian. You seized those systems intact. You were also heavily funded by the Gallente Federation. There is no certainty that you could manage a huge influx of former-slaves who don't necessarily share your culture or religion.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
237
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 05:15:46 -
[94] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Deitra Vess wrote:I was more less responding to Erin. Inflexability should be met with inflexability. If there's no room for compromise there's no reason for striving for peace. Believe me when I say majority of the points you made were clear and on my conscience when I said that, however we shouldn't forget the reasons why we fight to only make peace for ourselves and doom our children.
As far as not having any place to bring them when we finally free our brothers, when we were finally free, we built ourselves back up from nothing. If what you said were the case, we would be starting from a much better point then that. Whatever hardship we would face, we would overcome. We have before, we most certainly will again. Inflexibility should be met with inflexibility. That sounds like a recipe for no progress to me. Besides which, you can say a lot about Sarum's administration but you can't say she's inflexible. She released slaves. Nobody seems terribly interested in WHY or in how she could be persuaded to do so again. I'll say that again. She released, without negotiation or pretext, millions of slaves to the Republic. Nobody seems terribly interested, however. Most of the Matari I've discussed it with have claimed that the Republic's poor handling of this release of slaves proves that it was, in fact, a cunning ruse to bring down the Republic by giving it a taste of what it wants. Okay, then. Also, you did not 'build yourselves back up from nothing'. Much of the territory that you took was formerly Amarrian. You seized those systems intact. You were also heavily funded by the Gallente Federation. There is no certainty that you could manage a huge influx of former-slaves who don't necessarily share your culture or religion.
I will argue that the Empress didn't do this without any pretext. These were indoctrinated slaves, still wracked with Vitoxin afflictions! We had to deal with Scripture-thumping door-to-door missionaries in the crack of dawn who wouldn't leave the clan commons even after five hours of heckling! Worse, they had this problem where they will suddenly seize up, flop about and spill the communal coffee all over the carpet out of the blue! They are also utterly rubbish at fixing or doing anything useful other than preaching semi-coherently and seizing up once a week!
Can't even train them to do anything useful either! They are pretty resistant to it! Something about 'Pagan rubbish'.
- Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5182
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 06:15:11 -
[95] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Only when you admit that deep down you're just like me.
I already know it, Rodj. I know I'm just like you. And I know that the only thing that makes me better than you is my ability to admit to myself that I'm just like you.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
431
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 12:07:41 -
[96] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:The idea of the entirety of humanity sharing one culture is pretty damn horrific regardless of how it's achieved. Talk to Stitcher about his opinion on cultural homogenisation sometime.
Andreus,
Honestly, though I admit I'm irresponsibly playing devils advocate to a certain extent, a part of me is almost inclined to disagree with you there. If you think about it from a purely pragmatic standpoint (or perhaps even a somewhat deific one), the idea of a truly homogenized human culture is at least as wonderful as it is horrifying - Most of the clusters civilizations that achieved spaceflight on their own terms got a taste of it in the years before the illusion was shattered by first contact with other races, and there's a reason they're usually called golden ages. The idea of a world where people not only don't fight, but have no reason to ever fight again, is a concept so wonderful that in the modern day it almost seems fanastical.
The problem is less the idea itself, and more the horrible sacrifices, both willing and unwilling, one would have to make to realize it - since each culture is obviously a unique and precious thing to all of it's followers, with it's own objectively compelling advantages. I fully admit I'm no exception. Unless humanity decides to draw straws on it, any means to reach it is going to be insidious at best, and absolutely nightmarish at worst.
I digress, though. I see what you're trying to say, but I still don't really think it would be a terrible thing. Speaking realistically, it's obvious to anyone who doesn't believe in a literal divine mandate of fate that the idea of the Amarr converting the cluster by velvet is a non-starter; It's had a hundred years to do it already, and the only place it's caught on notably is in pockets in the Federation, and I very much doubt the Theology Council has a high opinion of how it's metamorphosed to be compelling in that environment. Even in the State, the Empires closest ally, when you hear "Amarr Missionary" it's usually as a punchline, or failing that, an angry complaint.
So what's the harm in them trying? Most religions have practically unfulfillable mandates, and still manage to function in wider society just fine, so long as they don't have a sword in their hand to go with it. |
Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
913
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 12:10:14 -
[97] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Tuulinen for Empress.
That would be pretentious. I vote we call him Duchess.
Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4359
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 14:29:56 -
[98] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Tuulinen for Empress. That would be pretentious. I vote we call him Duchess.
Now look what you've done.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Darc Kaahar
The Gaping Maw
The Periphery
62
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 15:09:06 -
[99] - Quote
Wood -- the strongest substance known to man. |
Claudia Osyn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
990
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 16:55:47 -
[100] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Desiderya wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Tuulinen for Empress. That would be pretentious. I vote we call him Duchess. Now look what you've done.
Now you just need a proper dress and you'll be all set. I'm thinking something in green....
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4359
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 17:17:55 -
[101] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Desiderya wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Tuulinen for Empress. That would be pretentious. I vote we call him Duchess. Now look what you've done. Now you just need a proper dress and you'll be all set. I'm thinking something in green....
Whoa, will that work with my pale complexion?
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Claudia Osyn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
990
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 17:24:42 -
[102] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Desiderya wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Tuulinen for Empress. That would be pretentious. I vote we call him Duchess. Now look what you've done. Now you just need a proper dress and you'll be all set. I'm thinking something in green.... Whoa, will that work with my pale complexion?
I think a nice pastel green would suit you just fine, with the proper application of cosmetics you would be turning heads in no time...
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4359
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 19:03:07 -
[103] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:
I think a nice pastel green would suit you just fine, with the proper application of cosmetics you would be turning heads in no time...
Wow. I'm amazed you know precisely the right dress colour for a stocky Civire male in his mid-twenties to wear for social occasions. I would have thought this was a fairly niche subject.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
25682
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 19:32:00 -
[104] - Quote
She's good at what she does.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5183
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 19:45:27 -
[105] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:
I think a nice pastel green would suit you just fine, with the proper application of cosmetics you would be turning heads in no time...
Wow. I'm amazed you know precisely the right dress colour for a stocky Civire male in his mid-twenties to wear for social occasions. I would have thought this was a fairly niche subject.
This certainly explains the vast swathes of fanfiction I've been pulling off the surface web of Guristas information networks lately...
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Claudia Osyn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
992
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 20:11:08 -
[106] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:
I think a nice pastel green would suit you just fine, with the proper application of cosmetics you would be turning heads in no time...
Wow. I'm amazed you know precisely the right dress colour for a stocky Civire male in his mid-twenties to wear for social occasions. I would have thought this was a fairly niche subject.
What can I say, all Gallente are born with a supurb sense of fashion. Now, what kind of shoes to put you in.....?
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|
Tyrel Toov
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
209
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 21:29:07 -
[107] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:
I think a nice pastel green would suit you just fine, with the proper application of cosmetics you would be turning heads in no time...
Wow. I'm amazed you know precisely the right dress colour for a stocky Civire male in his mid-twenties to wear for social occasions. I would have thought this was a fairly niche subject. What can I say, all Gallente are born with a supurb sense of fashion. Now, what kind of shoes to put you in.....?
Six inch stilettos, red.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Zanzibar Heroshima
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
44
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 21:34:50 -
[108] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:
I think a nice pastel green would suit you just fine, with the proper application of cosmetics you would be turning heads in no time...
Wow. I'm amazed you know precisely the right dress colour for a stocky Civire male in his mid-twenties to wear for social occasions. I would have thought this was a fairly niche subject. What can I say, all Gallente are born with a supurb sense of fashion. Now, what kind of shoes to put you in.....? Six inch stilettos, red.
With the green dress? Surely some high gloss black would be in order. |
Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
50
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 21:38:01 -
[109] - Quote
Zanzibar Heroshima wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:
I think a nice pastel green would suit you just fine, with the proper application of cosmetics you would be turning heads in no time...
Wow. I'm amazed you know precisely the right dress colour for a stocky Civire male in his mid-twenties to wear for social occasions. I would have thought this was a fairly niche subject. What can I say, all Gallente are born with a supurb sense of fashion. Now, what kind of shoes to put you in.....? Six inch stilettos, red. With the green dress? Surely some high gloss black would be in order.
Oh God forgive these people their fashion faux pas...... I can't bear to watch.
|
Claudia Osyn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
995
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 21:38:06 -
[110] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:
I think a nice pastel green would suit you just fine, with the proper application of cosmetics you would be turning heads in no time...
Wow. I'm amazed you know precisely the right dress colour for a stocky Civire male in his mid-twenties to wear for social occasions. I would have thought this was a fairly niche subject. What can I say, all Gallente are born with a supurb sense of fashion. Now, what kind of shoes to put you in.....? Six inch stilettos, red.
No, I don't think his butt needs the help, besides, they're hard to move in. I'm thinking a cute pair of slippers in green and silver..
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4364
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 21:51:00 -
[111] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:No, I don't think his butt needs the help, besides, they're hard to move in. I'm thinking a cute pair of slippers in green and silver..
That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me today, also my ankles thank you.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Claudia Osyn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
995
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 22:10:39 -
[112] - Quote
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:
Oh God forgive these people their fashion faux pas...... I can't bear to watch.
I think I could find an outfit for you too....
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|
Claudia Osyn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
995
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 22:14:51 -
[113] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:No, I don't think his butt needs the help, besides, they're hard to move in. I'm thinking a cute pair of slippers in green and silver.. That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me today, also my ankles thank you.
The truth doesn't always have to hurt. Also, your ankles are very welcome.
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|
N'maro Makari
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
478
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 20:50:53 -
[114] - Quote
This thread is in a good place. Carry on.
**Vherokior-á**
|
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1810
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 08:19:46 -
[115] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
...So what's the harm in them trying? Most religions have practically unfulfillable mandates, and still manage to function in wider society just fine, so long as they don't have a sword in their hand to go with it.
But Pilot Ikiryo that's precisely the problem with the Amarr; the DO have a sword in their hand (the Imperial Navy, 24th Imperial Crusade, navies of the various heir families) and are quite willing to use it to further their mandate. Remember a few years back when one of the heirs sent an invasion fleet into Gallente territory? Need I remind you of the empire's naked aggression against the Jove?
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1023
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 08:46:27 -
[116] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
...So what's the harm in them trying? Most religions have practically unfulfillable mandates, and still manage to function in wider society just fine, so long as they don't have a sword in their hand to go with it.
But Pilot Ikiryo that's precisely the problem with the Amarr; the DO have a sword in their hand (the Imperial Navy, 24th Imperial Crusade, navies of the various heir families) and are quite willing to use it to further their mandate. Remember a few years back when one of the heirs sent an invasion fleet into Gallente territory? Need I remind you of the empire's naked aggression against the Jove?
His Highness was punished, by us, for that. The Republic didn't do the same for the Elder Fleet. Even when ordered to by CONCORD.
And the attack on the Jove was over a century ago, before we established CONCORD and formal diplomatic relations. There seems to be a regular failure in people to understand that an attack on a nation to which you have no diplomatic relations is not in any way the same as breaking treaties to attack someone you do have diplomatic relations with. When you establish formal diplomatic relations and policies with other nations, when you have given your word, you are obligated to conduct yourself accordingly. Ergo, while the Jove were threatened by Amarr before CONCORD, they are not at risk now so long as they remain a CONCORD signatory. The same was the case with the Republic. |
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
431
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 08:56:00 -
[117] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:But Pilot Ikiryo that's precisely the problem with the Amarr; the DO have a sword in their hand (the Imperial Navy, 24th Imperial Crusade, navies of the various heir families) and are quite willing to use it to further their mandate. Remember a few years back when one of the heirs sent an invasion fleet into Gallente territory? Need I remind you of the empire's naked aggression against the Jove?
Miss Rella,
I mean no disrespect, but if you had taken a look at the conversational context in which I made that post, you would have observed that I was arguing with Andreus in the context of a hypothetical scenario where the Empire ceased any attempts at military expansion. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
87
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 10:12:39 -
[118] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:. Ergo, while the Jove were threatened by Amarr before CONCORD, they are not at risk now so long as they remain a CONCORD signatory. The same was the case with the Republic.
I have combat records against invading Imperial fleets that says otherwise. Pretending that the state of war was anything but finally making it official doesn't do you nor us any favors. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5199
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 10:43:43 -
[119] - Quote
I have never been of any illusion that the Amarr have renounced the idea of military conquest of the cluster - a brief glance at the rhetoric from the vast majority of their highest figures of authority attests to that. What I willingly concede that they are is unwilling to attempt that military conquest right now. To them peace has always been, essentially, a means to an end - an opportunity to wait for a more favourable state of affairs. No matter what House Sarum said, at the dawn of CONCORD, the Empire was in no position to fight a war of conquest, even against the nascent Republic. Vak'Atioth and the Minmatar rebellion had so damaged Imperial morale and military power that a war ran the risk of ruining them. Peace wasn't just common sense, it was essentially a neccessity. The Empire needed to rebuild its strength and pride.
But their attitude to the rest of the cluster hadn't changed - the presumption of innate, divinely-mandated racial superiority never disappeared. Samira said it herself - the Empire is a nation founded upon conquest.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
1512
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 10:43:47 -
[120] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Sure. End slavery and we'll talk. Until then, not so much.
Some minmatars are indeed so stupid to tell Imperials what to do within their Empire, while it is Republic and Empire relations and systems in warzone are under the threat.
I have said somewhere, that asking Amarr to end slavery is the same as asking us all to remove public school education system. It is simply absurd, and I can't believe how ridiculously blind and ignorant these minmatars, who call to end slavery in the Empire.
Such minmatars should never be allowed to be in power, and I hope that the Empire will continue defending systems from TLF to not let TLF to control any of people's lives or assets. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1025
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 11:45:37 -
[121] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:I have never been of any illusion that the Amarr have renounced the idea of military conquest of the cluster - a brief glance at the rhetoric from the vast majority of their highest figures of authority attests to that. What I willingly concede that they are is unwilling to attempt that military conquest right now.
Correct. We haven't renounced it, but we are under obligation to uphold our treaties. We have no such obligation to towards nations that are not signatories of CONCORD, and there is always the future possibility of allowing current treaties to expire and to withdraw from CONCORD, but while we are a signatory of CONCORD we must keep to the policies we have signed.
I don't think there is anything dishonest with this state of affairs, and I would be surprised if other nations do not maintain similar stances. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
88
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 11:51:40 -
[122] - Quote
The dishonesty comes when you pretend you're not invading and conducting slave raids. The evidence is rather overwhelming. |
Blue spy
Black Serpent Technologies
Black Legion.
15
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 15:41:59 -
[123] - Quote
To my dearest Lord Admiral, Gaven Lok'ri of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris.
On behalf of all the criminal elements benefiting from this current state of affairs, I humbly thank you for this rousing speech, and your consistent efforts to inspire the next generation of Matari resistance fighters.
To be frank with you; myself and many associates aligned with the Angel Cartel have been concerned about the very real possibility for peace in New Eden. But then, the incident on Luminaire, and then you. It warms the cockles of my heart that at this pivotal juncture in history you choose to sing the uncompromising song of war.
I look forward to etching your words into the weapons I distribute, and the caches of drugs I ply so that I may inspire my customers, and look forward to their repeat custom.
Yours faithfully,
Theodore |
Evi Polevhia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
687
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 15:45:19 -
[124] - Quote
Or maybe the subcockles. |
Miyamoto Takedi
State Protectorate
Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 16:33:42 -
[125] - Quote
Maybe the kidneys?
Maybe even the colon? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4366
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 19:34:00 -
[126] - Quote
Miyamoto Takedi wrote:Maybe the kidneys?
Maybe even the colon?
That guy appears to be roughly 90% colon.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 09:17:21 -
[127] - Quote
Confess, and the God will forgive.
((
If you are a roleplayer, or want to learn about roleplay, please join "Out of Character" and "Intergalactic Summit" channels in game,
Lets show CCP that there are many roleplayers still here, and we want more Live Events!!
))
|
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
291
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 18:00:48 -
[128] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:The dishonesty comes when you pretend you're not invading and conducting slave raids. The evidence is rather overwhelming.
It remains official Imperial Policy that slave raids on CONCORD signatories are in fact illegal. If you have clear evidence of such raids, please notify the proper Amarrian authorities so that the perpetrators can be punished.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
194
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 18:12:25 -
[129] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:The dishonesty comes when you pretend you're not invading and conducting slave raids. The evidence is rather overwhelming. It remains official Imperial Policy that slave raids on CONCORD signatories are in fact illegal. If you have clear evidence of such raids, please notify the proper Amarrian authorities so that the perpetrators can be punished. Of course, given the current state of war with the Republic, I don't know that the Empire would consider it protected by said treaties since the Republic actively chose to break them.
I don't expect you to have a detailed answer on this question. Your obviously not one of the authorities you speak of, but maybe you have some light to shed on this. Is there any info on any of these groups actually being punished? What said punishment is? How many actually get brought to justice? |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
291
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 18:33:12 -
[130] - Quote
I have only been involved in the capture of a few illegal slavers as my activities have been primarily aimed at counter-terrorist and counter-heretic activity over the years.
However, my understanding is that Illegal Slavers caught red handed should expect to become slaves themselves in short order. Within Amarrian borders the conviction rates are quite high on this issue. Amarrian society does not approve of such scum.
For foreign raids the problem is usually one of reporting. As you can see in this thread, the people making the claims of slave raids by Amarrians against their nation tend to be the sorts who have grudges already against Amarr. In many cases those people have *already* committed terrorist attacks upon the Empire. If a legitimate group found real evidence of Amarrian slavetaking in CONCORD space and brought that to the attention of the Amarrian Authorities, then the slavers in question would not have bright futures ahead of them.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
194
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 18:40:10 -
[131] - Quote
Thanks for a much more detailed answer than I was expecting. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5214
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 19:14:39 -
[132] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:As you can see in this thread, the people making the claims of slave raids by Amarrians against their nation tend to be the sorts who have grudges already against Amarr. In many cases those people have *already* committed terrorist attacks upon the Empire. If a legitimate group found real evidence of Amarrian slavetaking in CONCORD space and brought that to the attention of the Amarrian Authorities, then the slavers in question would not have bright futures ahead of them.
So, of course, any group finding "real evidence" of Amarrian slavetaking in CONCORD space wouldn't be considered a legitimate group. Thanks for demonstrating that you haven't changed a bit for the three-year sabatical you took.
Shut up, Lok'ri. Your words are still as empty as your soul.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
92
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 19:22:54 -
[133] - Quote
I've already provided the combat records. They're quite irrefutable as these records are generated far beyond the control of the pilot, in this case me. If you claim they're not sanctioned, you have a significant problem on your hands where it'd seem a significant number of fairly large fleets are entirely ignoring rules of engagement, borders, treaties and what have you.
If this is the case, I'd be more ashamed of the complete lack of discipline and the significant amount of corruption and criminal intent in your navies than anything else. It would probably be a better strategy to simply admit to the fact that these are sanctioned fleets following orders, as it'd at least portray a minimum amount of control over your own forces.
I respect an honest enemy more than one that keeps up facades and lies to cover their barbaric practices, even to the point of portraying their very military as incompetent and criminal. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
291
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 22:44:26 -
[134] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:As you can see in this thread, the people making the claims of slave raids by Amarrians against their nation tend to be the sorts who have grudges already against Amarr. In many cases those people have *already* committed terrorist attacks upon the Empire. If a legitimate group found real evidence of Amarrian slavetaking in CONCORD space and brought that to the attention of the Amarrian Authorities, then the slavers in question would not have bright futures ahead of them. So, of course, any group finding "real evidence" of Amarrian slavetaking in CONCORD space wouldn't be considered a legitimate group. .
This is baseless nonsense, as usual from this source.
Amarr values order and obedience and deals with people who break that order extremely harshly. If an anti-Caldari slave raid were to occur and the guilty were caught, I am absolutely sure that those guilty would find themselves wishing they had never been born. I doubt we would even bother to extradite the wretches.
The same would have held true with the Gallente and Matari in the period before Shakor's War.
Quote:I've already provided the combat records. They're quite irrefutable as these records are generated far beyond the control of the pilot, in this case me. If you claim they're not sanctioned, you have a significant problem on your hands where it'd seem a significant number of fairly large fleets are entirely ignoring rules of engagement, borders, treaties and what have you
These reports have been appearing for years and the numbers do not match anything even remotely possible. I mean, a small dreadnought battle makes interstellar news, but yet we are supposed to believe that hundreds of battleships a day are invading into Matari space to their doom and nothing is being mentioned about it other than Pod pilot reports?
We are at war, anyways. Why would we bother hiding our attacks on the Matari? Any protection that we offered them was thrown away with Shakor's surprise. The better question is why would we throw away thousands of lives and ships for no purpose whatsoever?
Either someone has duped you for their own agenda or you are forging your data for personal reasons. Either way, It is quite certain that you were destroying targets that were not actually part of the Amarrian Navy.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
95
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 00:30:05 -
[135] - Quote
The official records from CONCORD and your own Empire's standings towards me tends to disagree with that. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4370
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 01:04:56 -
[136] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:The official records from CONCORD and your own Empire's standings towards me tends to disagree with that.
I disagree. Small incursions are published as breaking news with cluster-shattering importance. I remember following Octopus Squadron to my demise in Gallente space - with a small fleet of ships compared to the numbers that these highsec warriors regularly bandy about.
Yet you ask us to believe that incursions a hundred times larger and more serious go on every day? Silent and unremarked?
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
95
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 01:11:29 -
[137] - Quote
I have no records of "every day", nor do I see news reports being made over a lot of things. I do have records of rather significantly sized invasion fleets. Believe what you will, it matters little to me. I know what I have personally fought and I know the reaction the Empire had to it. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4370
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 01:24:45 -
[138] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I have no records of "every day", nor do I see news reports being made over a lot of things. I do have records of rather significantly sized invasion fleets. Believe what you will, it matters little to me. I know what I have personally fought and I know the reaction the Empire had to it.
Well you go off in your corner and be incandescently furious about imaginary fleets, Mizhara. I'll be over with the rest of the cluster when you feel like growing up.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
95
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 01:52:31 -
[139] - Quote
I'm actually more amused than anything else. The combat records are far beyond my capacity to forge, so I wonder what kind of conspiracy you guys think is happening in both CONCORD and the Empire to forge these things?
Besides, in the end it doesn't really matter. There is no contesting that the Empire holds my people. I have never needed any justification beyond that and the dishonesty and games of pretend from the Empire is merely a side-attraction that reinforces their place as enemies of the cluster. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1887
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 06:12:22 -
[140] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote: There is no contesting that the Empire holds my people.
Except that they're not your people. Unless you have the paperwork to prove otherwise?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1821
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 07:23:45 -
[141] - Quote
You're very good at playing the pedant aren't you Blake?
They were Minmatar citizens before your ancestors so brutally invaded our space and enslaved them.
Culturally they're more akin to you slavers now but, let's not forget where they hailed from originally. Biologically they're Matari and therefore, our people.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
|
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
299
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 07:56:53 -
[142] - Quote
Originally all forms of humanity came from the same Old World and biologically are from the same origin point, no?
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5215
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 07:59:18 -
[143] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Originally all forms of humanity came from the same Old World and biologically are from the same origin point, no?
You have another member of your corporation in a thread at this very moment attempting to deny that fact.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
299
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 08:23:36 -
[144] - Quote
If you are referring to Adml. Blake's comment the Earth Hypothesis thread, I think you should look up the concept of reductio ad absurdum.
The scriptures are very clear on this issue:
"In the beginning all things were as one.
God parted them and breathed life into his creation
Divided the parts and gave each its place
And unto each, bestowed purpose" Book 1 1:4
"The Amarr people came into the world and the world came into being.
Our illustrious ancestors freed their souls from the evils of the old
world and created a new one." Book 1 1:14
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1888
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 08:23:46 -
[145] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Originally all forms of humanity came from the same Old World and biologically are from the same origin point, no? You have another member of your corporation in a thread at this very moment attempting to deny that fact.
If you're referring to this, no I'm not.
Saying that something could be hypothesized is not necessarily the same as arguing in favour of that hypothesis.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5215
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 08:24:58 -
[146] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:If you're referring to this, no I'm not. Saying that something could be hypothesized is not necessarily the same as arguing in favour of that hypothesis.
Don't tell me what you said as if I don't know what you meant to imply.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
299
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 08:31:33 -
[147] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Don't tell me what you said as if I don't know what you meant to imply.
The irony in this statement is lovely.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5215
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 08:33:17 -
[148] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:The irony in this statement is lovely.
What would a zealot know of irony? The entire Empire chokes under the weight of ironies they cannot even perceive.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
299
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 08:38:01 -
[149] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:The irony in this statement is lovely. What would a zealot know of irony? The entire Empire chokes under the weight of ironies they cannot even perceive.
The fact that you think I am a zealot is another amusement. You would really make a quite decent court jester.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Circle-Of-Two
5215
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 09:15:20 -
[150] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:The fact that you think I am a zealot is another amusement. You would really make a quite decent court jester.
You advocate the integration of the entire cluster into the Empire in spite of the fact that the rest of the cluster has absolutely no interest in it whatsoever being painfully obvious to you. That some advocate for the same integration to be done with more immediacy or more violence doesn't magically absolve you of being a zealot - it just means you're a slightly less objectionable one.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
434
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 12:00:02 -
[151] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:The irony in this statement is lovely. What would a zealot know of irony? The entire Empire chokes under the weight of ironies they cannot even perceive. The fact that you think I am a zealot is another amusement. You would really make a quite decent court jester.
...Does the Empire still have literal court jesters? That seems a bit of a bizzare anachronism, even for such a conservative society, with FTL entertainment available to everyone. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
99
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 13:11:00 -
[152] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote: There is no contesting that the Empire holds my people. Except that they're not your people. Unless you have the paperwork to prove otherwise?
The Empire still holds records somewhere of my birth and upbringing among them. That is why they are my people. They are quite simply kin. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
299
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Posted - 2014.12.22 14:33:25 -
[153] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:The irony in this statement is lovely. What would a zealot know of irony? The entire Empire chokes under the weight of ironies they cannot even perceive. The fact that you think I am a zealot is another amusement. You would really make a quite decent court jester. ...Does the Empire still have literal court jesters? That seems a bit of a bizzare anachronism, even for such a conservative society, with FTL entertainment available to everyone.
Not normally. I know of a holder or two that has a fondness for bizarre anachronism, but it is not normal. Still, Andreus would make a good one.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
240
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Posted - 2014.12.22 16:00:27 -
[154] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:The irony in this statement is lovely. What would a zealot know of irony? The entire Empire chokes under the weight of ironies they cannot even perceive. The fact that you think I am a zealot is another amusement. You would really make a quite decent court jester. ...Does the Empire still have literal court jesters? That seems a bit of a bizzare anachronism, even for such a conservative society, with FTL entertainment available to everyone.
You want anachronism? Just walk on the streets of any city on Pator. Among the smoke-belching spires you will literally trip over tribal talisman of all sorts. Not to mention the totems in the neon-lit plazas. There's also those synthesizers that look like wind instruments and drums too. We are also running on non-maglev rails in some of the smaller cities. And books! Books that literally crumble in your hands! Shelved together with info-disks!
Let's not even start on the odd Ibrik among the more advance steam-driven coffee-brewing apparatus. With accompanying mini-stoves.
- Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
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Claudia Osyn
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
1003
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Posted - 2014.12.22 16:30:22 -
[155] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:The irony in this statement is lovely. What would a zealot know of irony? The entire Empire chokes under the weight of ironies they cannot even perceive. The fact that you think I am a zealot is another amusement. You would really make a quite decent court jester. ...Does the Empire still have literal court jesters? That seems a bit of a bizzare anachronism, even for such a conservative society, with FTL entertainment available to everyone. You want anachronism? Just walk on the streets of any city on Pator. Among the smoke-belching spires you will literally trip over tribal talisman of all sorts. Not to mention the totems in the neon-lit plazas. There's also those synthesizers that look like wind instruments and drums too. We are also running on non-maglev rails in some of the smaller cities. And books! Books that literally crumble in your hands! Shelved together with info-disks! Let's not even start on the odd Ibrik among the more advance steam-driven coffee-brewing apparatus. With accompanying mini-stoves.
Do you also use petrol engines instead of electric to power your autos?
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
240
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Posted - 2014.12.23 01:55:20 -
[156] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:[
Do you also use petrol engines instead of electric to power your autos?
Some of the vehicles do. They share the roads with the electrically-powered hover autos. In fact, some of the hover autos run on hydrocarbons.
- Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
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Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
19
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Posted - 2014.12.25 17:44:35 -
[157] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:The irony in this statement is lovely. What would a zealot know of irony? The entire Empire chokes under the weight of ironies they cannot even perceive. The fact that you think I am a zealot is another amusement. You would really make a quite decent court jester. ...Does the Empire still have literal court jesters? That seems a bit of a bizzare anachronism, even for such a conservative society, with FTL entertainment available to everyone. Not normally. I know of a holder or two that has a fondness for bizarre anachronism, but it is not normal. Still, Andreus would make a good one.
I wouldn't buy him. He isn't pleasant.
((
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