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Caanan Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.09.10 18:40:00 - [1] So since theres so many threads about "ZOMG CCP YUR SERVERS SUCK I CANT LOG IN" because of Jita being so laggy why don't we all just discuss this in one thread so that we can have some form of organized discussion about the current problem Eve is facing with Jita. There is no doubt that the immense lag in Jita is the fault of CCP. However people should be less harsh on CCP, and should refrain from making "ZOMG CCP I WANT MY MONEY BACK I CANT LOG IN" threads. Just ask yourself, in what other game can you interract with 30k people on the same server? Eve is the only one. People need to give CCP some credit for pulling this off at this level. Whining is not going to solve the problem. The lag in Jita is something people have to deal with. If you realize how the server works, you'll realize that 700 people in one system is going to crash the node one way or another. CCP may add more servers, or develop some load balancing system or something. But if EVE continues to grow I predict we will see the same trend happening, Jita constantly growing and constantly facing the same problem. So let me describe why Jita is why it is the way I see it. Jita has has a lot of stations with a lot of agents ranging from all levels and types. This attracts a lot of newer players looking to make money by doing missions. These agent runners supply the market with some mods and items, but mostly they demand items that they need for running their missions. This attracts producers to supply the agent runners with ships and mods because they have a market for their products. Now Jita has become a center of commerce. Next, other players come to Jita for shopping since the market is so plentiful and they can get everything they need in one stop. Along with Jita there are Rens and Oursulaert, which are all similar because they have lots of agents and have stable and plentiful markets. However they don't lag nearly as bad as Jita because their populations aren't as large. This leads me to think that people are attracted to Caldari space for a reason. A large amount of the population is newer players running agent missions which is what really makes the system of Jita, Oursulaert, and Rens. But Jita is larger because it is caldari. Caldari are the most favored starting race for new players and alts. Why? Because Caldari ships are the best for running agent missions. Why be Gallente and train for a megathron or dominix when a raven will fulfill your needs? The Caldari race is overpowered, and as a result Jita has a much larger population. Rens and Oursulaert don't have nearly as bad as a problem with lag because they aren't caldari. CCP's mistake was concentrating all the agent missions in Jita, Rens, and Oursulaert. If they weren't there, then we would have a more distributed population, and no huge node crashes and whatnot. Sure you can add more servers, have better hardware, or a load balancing system, but in the end the problem is going to get continually worse. My suggestion is to remove all the agents in Jita, Rens and Oursulaert and spread them out among their race's space. This will help balance the populations of each races space and will balance the lag on the server. So what do you guys think?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.10 18:42:00 - [2] Yes, I feel that newbies and trial accounts should start in one of the new Dragon newbie systems, where they can do their tutorials and lvl 1 missions. Jita should stay the trade & travel hub it is today, but without the mission runners and the newbies. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Savesti Kyrsst	Posted - 2006.09.10 18:45:00 - [3] Kick most of the agents to nearby systems. Then allow people to have the NPC convoys haul items for them - for a small fee, and only to hisec. Then they know they can either enter lag/corpwar hell or wait half an hour and get it to the next system over.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.09.10 18:47:00 - [4] half of my missions in perimeter send me to to Jita. why?? all the area around jita has : the best market, plenty of agents, hundreds of stations why? jita and its closest neighbours have a better place (if you killed everyone) than the entire derelik region lol spread the good spots around! its not queues that will solve anything. its changing the offer and demand... - Tides of Silence recruiting miners and overall fun people
Nanos Nanotechnologists Are Never Out Smarted	Posted - 2006.09.10 18:48:00 - [5] How about a congestion charge, the busier a system gets above a certain point, the higher the fees to dock, jump into the system/etc.
Iyanah Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.10 18:51:00 - [6] I do things in the simple way. Rens is the closest such hub to me, so i run missions there. my base is in abudban - the next system over, where i can mine, manufacture, and store all my items. i only go into rens itself to actually do the missions. i think if people did this rather than sit in space doing a whole load of nothing, then there would be less of an issue. having 300 players doing bugger all asside from occupy space (and bump anyone trying to undock) is more of a cause of problems than the system's NPC occupants ========================================== Iy
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.09.10 19:02:00 - [7] Quote: There is no doubt that the immense lag in Jita is the fault of CCP Yes there is its the fault of the 400 players and alts that CHOOSE to use that system. I DO NOT got to Jita, and i can live just fine in EVE with out it. The ideas of moving all the noob corps and most the agents out of the big hubs is not bad but your going to have people start screaming about having to do missions in low sec or 3 jumps from a hub....
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.10 19:05:00 - [8] Two reasons Jita is too busy: 1) It has a starter system for Caldari (the most popular race in-game) 1 jump out. 2) All ships passing from 'the south' to 'the north', travel through Jita What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.10 19:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Ryas Nia The ideas of moving all the noob corps and most the agents out of the big hubs is not bad but your going to have people start screaming about having to do missions in low sec or 3 jumps from a hub.... I see it as a excellent business opportunity to provide these mission runners with ships and modules they need for their missions, so they dont have to to go Jita. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
RichThugster Gallente Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.10 19:10:00 - [10] or maybe a 30minute timer. if you do nothing for 30mins you get disconnected, im sure that will cut down on a good portion of ppl in peak systems, and also in eve in general. Droping the ppl in general ingame will reduce the lag in peak systems but my opinion is, if you dont like it, dont play. Simple as that. Dont moan *** or cry, cus i dont care, the player base doesnt care, and your what a tiny tiny minority within 100K+ players. CCP would like your money, but is neither going to go broke, or cry themselves to sleep if you quit. Originally by:** KIATolon I just got owned

TorpSpammer ExtraordinR	Posted - 2006.09.10 19:31:00 - [11] make it .4 et voila
Pericles Maranhao Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.10 19:38:00 - [12] All I know is that I gave up on my good standings and etc, packed my stuff, and hauled out of Jita. Now looking for a new agent... Can't take that lag anymore.
MobileBlack Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.09.10 20:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Splagada half of my missions in perimeter send me to to Jita. why?? same question :)
Lala Ru Gallente Quasar Industries	Posted - 2006.09.10 20:08:00 - [14] Also move Jita somewhere out of the way, with only one entrance. This prevents idle travelers from moving through Jita and helps lessen the load. I've been in Jita many times, but in all but one of the times I was just passing through.
Karash Amerius Amarr O.E.C	Posted - 2006.09.10 20:25:00 - [15] All level 3 and 4 mission agents need to be in low security space. period. Merc Blog
Kye Kenshin Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.10 20:25:00 - [16] Jita seems to be the nearest market for nearly one third of 0.0 All the north use jita as their shopping hub and i reckon a good portion of NW regions do as well so you get alot of traffic. Im only speculating here i could be wrong. www.beaglecorp.com \| Join "BEAGLEPUBLIC" channel ingame.
SIlk Predator	Posted - 2006.09.10 20:30:00 - [17] I think we should have some sort of bypass built that allows all us travellers to bypass Jita without adding a silly number of jumps to our routes. Just moving the agents out of Jita and distributing them through the surrounding area will not really cure the problem as there are plenty of people who have set-up businesses there which will continue to draw people in. However, adding a bypass in conjunction with the re-distribution of agents may, over time, help reduce the substantial lag throughout most of the immediate area. Of course, by moving agents and adding a bypass, it would open up the forums for flame and whine threads about CCP killing off peoples business in Jita and the immediate vicinity. So is it time for a hyperspace by-pass in EVE?
Caanan Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.09.10 20:40:00 - [18] Originally by: Ryas Nia Quote: There is no doubt that the immense lag in Jita is the fault of CCP Yes there is its the fault of the 400 players and alts that CHOOSE to use that system. I DO NOT got to Jita, and i can live just fine in EVE with out it. The ideas of moving all the noob corps and most the agents out of the big hubs is not bad but your going to have people start screaming about having to do missions in low sec or 3 jumps from a hub.... First of all it is CCP's fault because they created Jita what it is. The agents in the system cause a chain reaction which attracts more and more people. Thus it is CCP's fault, and I'm sure they're aware of it. People shouldn't worry about getting their agents moved.
ElGuapo Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.09.10 20:57:00 - [19] I started a thread in the ideas forum on solving the jita problem: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=393684
Runt Mcgoire Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.10 21:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Karash Amerius All level 3 and 4 mission agents need to be in low security space. period. Agreed. My main does run his missions out of a .2 system; where 3 level IV agents live. Question tho is why put them all in the same place? Me think that some planned funelling is happening where CCP is trying to foister some player conflict. (/em wraps head in tin...)

3Jane Tessier'Ashpol	Posted - 2006.09.10 22:11:00 - [21] Jita now = Yulai back then It's not exactly a new problem. Anyone been to Yulai recently? Noticed a difference to what it used to be?
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.09.10 23:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Caanan First of all it is CCP's fault because they created Jita what it is. The agents in the system cause a chain reaction which attracts more and more people. . Umm, and how is that CCP's fault exactly? And what could they possibly do to alter it? Move the best agents to Oipo? Okay, now the biggest agent-running system is Oipo, so the people building stuff to sell to mission-runners go to Oipo, and the people selling faction items go to Oipo, and everyone who wants to buy faction items goes to Oipo, and now you've got nobody in Jita and 700 people in Oipo. Change it to Tannolen, you've got 700 people Tannolen. It is NOT CCP's fault that people tend to concentrate into a single market system, and there's no way, short of changing human migratory patterns, to stop it. Since CCP is only CCP and not the almighty ruler of the Universe, that's a little beyond them. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.09.10 23:45:00 - [23] You'd have to make Jita less of a hub in order to cut down a majority of the lag. Have you ever looked at how many instas Jita itself has? A LOT of systems connect to it making it easy to get to no matter where you are almost. Pushing agents out of it. Closing off some routes to it. And opening up routes to other systems would "help" create more hubs in eve so that 500+ don't have to go into Jita to sell their faction loot. I'm just of the opinion jita should be destroyed in the up-coming faction war though. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
StarStryder Wise Guys	Posted - 2006.09.11 00:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr [And what could they possibly do to alter it? Move the best agents to Oipo? This is the key to the problem. "The best agents". What we need is lots of high quality lvl 3 and 4 agents spread around. They need to be of equal quality to stop everyone converging on the best one. An increase in the number of top quality agents is also needed if they are to be moved to low sec. Otherwise all that will happen is that the pirates will work out where the best agent is and camp it 24/7 as many mission runners as possible which will simply irritate a lot of people. Another solution to this problem is to allow agent convos to take place in space. Also, to the OP: Please don't start using the Jita situation to call for a Caldari nerf. The state of the races' ships has nothing to do with the large Caldari population. Newbies don't know anything about that stuff. When they choose a race all they have to go on are the brief generic descriptions. More people choose Caldari because they are described as a warrior race and this is considered to be good by a large number of people looking to play a game. That is the reason Caldari are numerous.
Phrixus Zephyr Singularity.	Posted - 2006.09.11 00:47:00 - [25] Any points made about Jita being a hub and busy are irrelevent. Before Dragon (actually i'd say a week or so before that too) Jita ran fine. As soon as the servers started acting funny just before Dragon went in, suddenly the lag increase's ten fold and now we get this que ****. Something was broke that was working before.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.09.11 00:50:00 - [26] Imho the current Jita problem is more of a Dragon code problem. Before Dragon, Jita was perfectly fine (at least for me) with close to 700 people, which I found amazing seeing how a few months back it would go **** up with just 500. I thought CCP did a really good Job somewhere along the way. But ever since the dragon patch (and it got worse with the followup fix-patch), I even get a lot of lag there with only 400 people. Just glad I do not live there, only trade. Still its unpleasant when you have to wait ages when moving stuff or opening market/escrow, and I think CCP messed up big time somewhere in Dragon. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Trem Sinval	Posted - 2006.09.11 00:59:00 - [27] Originally by: SIlk Predator I think we should have some sort of bypass built that allows all us travellers to bypass Jita without adding a silly number of jumps to our routes. There's a simple way around Jita that only adds 2 jumps if I remember right. You've got to plot it manually, but it's there. 0.7 and 0.6 space, practically deserted (since the autopilot never considers it). But worth it to avoid the jump queue's, suicide squads, and IV M4. shudder. - Trem
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.09.11 06:08:00 - [28] Originally by: StarStryder Originally by: Baldour Ngarr [And what could they possibly do to alter it? Move the best agents to Oipo? This is the key to the problem. "The best agents". What we need is lots of high quality lvl 3 and 4 agents spread around. They need to be of equal quality to stop everyone converging on the best one. Won't help. It's in everyone's interest to have a single, massive market hub; that's why Jita evolved into what it is now. Nerf Jita, and one will develop somewhere else. It already did, after all. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.09.11 07:27:00 - [29] Originally by: SIlk Predator ...So is it time for a hyperspace by-pass in EVE? Bahaha, call in the Vogon Constructor Fleet!! The way I see it there will always be hubs. Get some good agents together and you get mission runners. Mission runers generate loot and need ships / ammo. Instant trade hub. The ice in Jita is on the way out, maybe all the belts should should be removed from hub systems. We are talking 3-4 high sec systems without belts. No miners or ratters, they can just go one system over. After that maybe leave the agents where they are but tweak the code so the mission is never in that system. No missions actually take place there. If it's such a good agent you can stand to make a couple of jumps. Other agents shouldn't send mission runners there from other systems. After that, and this is the controversial bit, make all war decs null in market hub systems. Just call it a change to Concord law. That will cut out all the pilots camping stations day and night waiting to catch a war target on a shopping trip. They will just have to camp the routes in and out of the system instead. The biggest problem I see with the above is that these market hubs grew for a number of reasons. If any of my suggestions were implemented we may just quickly find that one of the key ingredients in the market hub pie has been removed and instead of Jita the new hub is two jumps over. Personally I get around the issue by not going to market hubs. >> RECRUITING <<
Helmut 314 Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.09.11 08:09:00 - [30] The thing that you are all missing is that we NEED trade hubs. Humans always do this, we flock together and set up shop next to each other because more people passing through the same area means more trade and some of that might just come your way. Yulai was exactly as Jita is, but when Yulai was the place to be the servers peaked at 10k people, not 30k. Thats one of the problems. The other is that no matter how you try to twist and turn and manipulate the flow of people they will eventually congregate around one or two systems that will become THE hub. ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson



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