| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
1173
   |
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:35:19 -
[1] - Quote
I was somewhat curious about the utilization of these forums since 2011.
Most people have had the vague sense that EVE-O forum usage is down. But I figured it would be more constructive to actually quantify it and did some homework.
(NOTE: I chose 2011 because it represents an EVE-O 'changing of the guard', as the previous Community Manager, CCP Zymurgist, was laid off in late 2011 and replaced with CCP Falcon/ISDs in 2012.)
Here is the results of my research, threadcounts rounded to the nearest 30, of various EVE-O subforums.
Perhaps others will draw conclusions and propose constructive solutions, but I will refrain from doing so, as the the purpose of this post is merely to spread information and illustrate.
General Discussion: (Usage Down 67%, between 2011 and 2014.)
2011: 22,260 unique threads
2012: 13,470 threads
2013: 10,620 threads
2014: 7320 threads
Ships and Mods: (Usage Down, 67%)
2011: 4890 unique threads
2012: 3150 threads
2013: 2820 threads
2014: 1620 threads
Crime and Punishment: (Usage Down, 65%)
2011: 2220 unique threads
2012: 1290 threads
2013: 1080 threads
2014: 780 threads
CAOD: (Usage Down, 91%)
2011: 1410 unique threads
2012: 390 threads
2013: 270 threads
2014: 120 threads |
Noriko Mai
1733
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:37:38 -
[2] - Quote
reddit... |
Paranoid Loyd
3256
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:40:16 -
[3] - Quote
Unique threads is a flawed metric, not that I have one to offer that would not be flawed, just sayin'
That being said, I agree usage is down, mostly because as Noriko mentioned there are other outlets that are not nearly as moderated.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Shelby Dusette
Isogen 5
7069
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:44:16 -
[4] - Quote
Interesting. 
Loyd has a point, although with differences that significant I don't think flawed metrics could substantiate them.
Thanks for sharing.
Don't Mind Us - Isogen 5 (Now Recruiting)
CCP Eterne: "Naked avatars for PLEX." =ƒÆï
Andrew Jester: "my posting brings all the bads to the yard, and they're like, I'm better than you"
|
Buck Futz
New Order Logistics
CODE.
235
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:46:10 -
[5] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:
General Discussion: (Usage Down 67%, between 2011 and 2014.)
2011: 22,260 unique threads
2012: 13,470 threads
2013: 10,620 threads
2014: 7320 threads
Ships and Mods: (Usage Down, 67%)
2011: 4890 unique threads
2012: 3150 threads
2013: 2820 threads
2014: 1620 threads
Crime and Punishment: (Usage Down, 65%)
2011: 2220 unique threads
2012: 1290 threads
2013: 1080 threads
2014: 780 threads
CAOD: (Usage Down, 91%)
2011: 1410 unique threads
2012: 390 threads
2013: 270 threads
2014: 120 threads
Wow.
Thats pretty stunning actually, when the numbers are put like that in black and white. Perhaps Chribba can chime in and verify this. Forums have literally been strangled to death in 3 years - no idea how far usage had plummeted. Extreme mismanagement in evidence here, and CCP Falcon/mods should be held to account. How else can you explain forum usage plummeting at a rate so far out of line with subscriptions?
If fostering a healthy vibrant forum community is the goal - its pretty clear he is not up to the task and perhaps his talents should be applied elsewhere.
|
Sol Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
873
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:48:31 -
[6] - Quote
Some coincidence. The forums were down for me just minutes ago.
Kind of wondering you didn't nominate me ShitPoster of the Year or something ... ^_^
Any how .... "CCP Zymurgist, was laid off in late 2011".
aaahhhh ... Incarna .......
I always felt bad for him, for some reason ... |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
18877
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:48:54 -
[7] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:General Discussion: (Usage Down 67%, between 2011 and 2014.)
2011: 22,260 unique threads
2012: 13,470 threads
2013: 10,620 threads
2014: 7320 threads
Quote:Unsuccessful at Everything
Date of Birth: 2011-08-12 02:28
Connor MacLeod wrote:There can be only one.
Proof of 'The Gathering' happening on the Forums.
Where the immortal forum warriors battle to the last man standing in order to claim the prize.
I hope its a pony.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
|
Sol Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
873
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:50:10 -
[8] - Quote
Merry Christmas, everyone. :) |
Shelby Dusette
Isogen 5
7069
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:52:04 -
[9] - Quote
I don't think it's related to moderation tbh.
In my opinion we really do get it pretty easy here, and there's probably other factors at play as to why community participation is lower.
It's definitely thought provoking though.
Don't Mind Us - Isogen 5 (Now Recruiting)
CCP Eterne: "Naked avatars for PLEX." =ƒÆï
Andrew Jester: "my posting brings all the bads to the yard, and they're like, I'm better than you"
|
Sol Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
873
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:56:23 -
[10] - Quote
Buck Futz wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:
General Discussion: (Usage Down 67%, between 2011 and 2014.)
2011: 22,260 unique threads
2012: 13,470 threads
2013: 10,620 threads
2014: 7320 threads
Ships and Mods: (Usage Down, 67%)
2011: 4890 unique threads
2012: 3150 threads
2013: 2820 threads
2014: 1620 threads
Crime and Punishment: (Usage Down, 65%)
2011: 2220 unique threads
2012: 1290 threads
2013: 1080 threads
2014: 780 threads
CAOD: (Usage Down, 91%)
2011: 1410 unique threads
2012: 390 threads
2013: 270 threads
2014: 120 threads
Wow. Thats pretty stunning actually, when the numbers are put like that in black and white. Perhaps Chribba can chime in and verify this. Forums have literally been strangled to death in 3 years - no idea how far usage had plummeted. Extreme mismanagement in evidence here, and CCP Falcon/mods should be held to account. How else can you explain forum usage plummeting at a rate so far out of line with subscriptions? If fostering a healthy vibrant forum community is the goal - its pretty clear he is not up to the task and perhaps his talents should be applied elsewhere. Why don't you look at this from more sides than just one?
I don't recall the forums back then at all,
but why isn't it equally possible that the amount of shitposters was cut down significantly?
Why wouldn't it be possible that less people simply posted on the forums for *good* reasons?
When I started this game a few years ago, there constantly was at least one whinethread on the frontpage.
It was always a carebear unable to deal with the game. There usually was more than one.
Back then it was common to read complaints about the players and the game.
This dropped significantly over the last years and thus reduced the amount of threads and posts, too.
Nowadays we rarely see anyone whine. Compared to only two years back,
people love this game enough to have no reason to post anymore.
That's a pretty good thing. I'd rather guess it's you having an issue with CCP Falcon. ^_^ |
Paranoid Loyd
3256
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:59:04 -
[11] - Quote
Sol Project wrote: *good* reason Don't start this conversation again. 
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7179
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:00:45 -
[12] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:reddit... There is a witch among us, good people. She has turned citizen Noriko into a frog.
Gather dry wood, my brethren. I can feel a burning coming on.
Mr Epeen 
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Sol Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
874
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:02:02 -
[13] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Sol Project wrote: *good* reason Don't start this conversation again.
I have no idea ... but I wish I knew ... because obviously it's was worth to remember.
Damn!
What am I missing? |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5676
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:06:35 -
[14] - Quote
Reduced thread count is obviously indicative of more efficient forum usage, and the denizens starting far fewer duplicate topics.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
|
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
18881
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:09:38 -
[15] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Noriko Mai wrote:reddit... There is a witch among us, good people. She has turned citizen Noriko into a frog. Gather dry wood, my brethren. I can feel a burning coming on. Mr Epeen
Obligatory.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
|
Hicksimus
Volatile Instability
Resonance.
496
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:12:16 -
[16] - Quote
We just had a lot more to complain about back then.
Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you?
Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
|
Ashlar Maidstone
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
146
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:19:53 -
[17] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:reddit...
Yep, hit it right on the head there! and yes, showing these numbers and we know pretty much some of the reasons why usage is down as it is.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5942
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:22:15 -
[18] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:I was somewhat curious about the utilization of these forums since 2011.
Most people have had the vague sense that EVE-O forum usage is down. But I figured it would be more constructive to actually quantify it and did some homework.
(NOTE: I chose 2011 because it represents an EVE-O 'changing of the guard', as the previous Community Manager, CCP Zymurgist, was laid off in late 2011 and replaced with CCP Falcon/ISDs in 2012.)
Here is the results of my research, threadcounts rounded to the nearest 30, of various EVE-O subforums.
Perhaps others will draw conclusions and propose constructive solutions, but I will refrain from doing so, as the the purpose of this post is merely to spread information and illustrate.
General Discussion: (Usage Down 67%, between 2011 and 2014.)
2011: 22,260 unique threads
2012: 13,470 threads
2013: 10,620 threads
2014: 7320 threads
Ships and Mods: (Usage Down, 67%)
2011: 4890 unique threads
2012: 3150 threads
2013: 2820 threads
2014: 1620 threads
Crime and Punishment: (Usage Down, 65%)
2011: 2220 unique threads
2012: 1290 threads
2013: 1080 threads
2014: 780 threads
CAOD: (Usage Down, 91%)
2011: 1410 unique threads
2012: 390 threads
2013: 270 threads
2014: 120 threads
Ah yes this is what I have observed. At times I cannot get time to play for months but I can still pop into the forums and hence the forums were my only "source" for the games at such time.
C&P forum used to really kick ass and you didn't have to be a pirate, ganker, or merc to enjoy them. You could learn how to survive in the game just from C&P alone. Now it's mainly merc advertisements - still legitimate usage but the "usual crowd" of good poasters you see less of these days; players like Zedrik Cayne and his exploits, Lady Spank's morose yet spot-on observations about PVP and good advice from Death of Virtue.
General discussion: I remember a time when any thread would get "scrolled out" in hours. Meaning if it were not the hottest topic, it was not on page one. Period. Now you can see a thread at the middle of the page in the morning and come back at night and it's still there with the same post count.
Even Intergalactic Summit (yes the RPers, the "nerds of the nerds") was more lively back then.
It's plainly obvious that the game has been in a malaise. Lots of names I used to see, save for the die-hards, are gone. When they do pop in occasionally it's like a family reunion.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
1175
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:25:58 -
[19] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Reduced thread count is obviously indicative of more efficient forum usage, and the denizens starting far fewer duplicate topics.
Not really.
Duplicate threads still show up in this metric, as locked threads are still counted. I do agree, however, that Chribba probably has some data or tools available that would give a far more accurate count of forum activity than 'threads by year'. Posts per day, etc.
Though I highly doubt 'efficient forum usage' or as Sol suggested earlier 'Eve is so damn good nobody posts anymore '.....explains the 65% collapse in forum participation in 3 years.
Reddit could explain it, as moderation may have driven people to other resources not directly under corporate control.
Another possible factor - 'new EVEGate forum' starting sometime in 2012, if I recall correctly.
Their initial rollout, and hasty retreat to the old forum, somehow managed to make Obamacare's heathcare.gov look almost professional by comparison.
Anecdotally, I visit and post far less, simply because I find EVE-O's content sanitized and uninteresting compared to 2007-2012. Hell, back then I would participate in forums even if I was taking an extended break from EVE.
Not anymore! But thats just me and my crank opinion.
These forum usage numbers, however, paint an ugly picture and it warrants looking into.
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5679
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:30:51 -
[20] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:War Kitten wrote:Reduced thread count is obviously indicative of more efficient forum usage, and the denizens starting far fewer duplicate topics.
Not really.
That was a joke son.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
|
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
1179
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:42:08 -
[21] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Ah yes this is what I have observed. At times I cannot get time to play for months but I can still pop into the forums and hence the forums were my only "source" for the games at such time.
C&P forum used to really kick ass and you didn't have to be a pirate, ganker, or merc to enjoy them. You could learn how to survive in the game just from C&P alone. Now it's mainly merc advertisements - still legitimate usage but the "usual crowd" of good poasters you see less of these days; players like Zedrik Cayne and his exploits, Lady Spank's morose yet spot-on observations about PVP and good advice from Death of Virtue.
General discussion: I remember a time when any thread would get "scrolled out" in hours. Meaning if it were not the hottest topic, it was not on page one. Period. Now you can see a thread at the middle of the page in the morning and come back at night and it's still there with the same post count.
Even Intergalactic Summit (yes the RPers, the "nerds of the nerds") was more lively back then.
It's plainly obvious that the game has been in a malaise. Lots of names I used to see, save for the die-hards, are gone. When they do pop in occasionally it's like a family reunion.
Hey, HW! Nice to see you post.
Was initially motivated by reading James 315's excellent blogpost on the current state of the forums. I highly suggest people read it.
He painted a pretty desolate picture, but I wanted to put some numbers to it to fill in some of the gaps.
As such, the point of the thread is to simply share that information.
I have my own theories on the "Why's", and could propose some constructive remedies - however these remedies would likely not be well received by the only people whose opinions seem to matter on these forums these days - so I will not go any further on the topic.
@Warkitten
Haha. Totally missed that. Might need to have my trollDAR array adjusted. |
Marsha Mallow
1802
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:51:12 -
[22] - Quote
You need to go back further than 2011 to get a clearer picture, or take into account how 2011 might be throwing the numbers out. The Eve forums were transferred across and gobbled everyones posts for months, causing people to either flounce off in disgust or post multiple threads complaining. It was also the height of Incarna with a ton of riot threads on GD. OOPE was split off from GD, and since then a couple of new subforums have been created (personally, I think there are too many). I think (?) Scrapheap died around April 2011 as well so a lot of people migrated back to Eve-O or across to Kugu when Failheap was reinstated and was quiet for the first few months.
There was a complaint made about this a few weeks ago in relation to CAOD and the mods pointed out they rarely moderate that forum because there are hardly any topics posted. The drop in acttivity there started when alt posting was banned, which afaik predates the current community team. ISDs did also agree to use the rules applied to C&P (minimal moderation) to try boost activity in there. When you consider how many player run sites have matured since then, I'm not sure CAOD being quiet is really of concern. All of the player sites are moderated - the only difference between them and here is that they permaban people who post contentless drivel a lot faster.
Maybe rather than moaning about ISDs it's worth considering implementing a downvote system like reddit to knock topics up and down. Surely it won't be abused in any way.
Btw according to that minerbumping article loyalon was given an official warning for posting OOC on the IGS forums after his RPing Merry Christmas thread was moved - which is absolutely hilarious. Well done Ezwal GÖÑ
Anyway,
Sol Project wrote:Merry Christmas, everyone. :)
DON'T BE RIDICULOUS!
|
DaReaper
Net 7
1564
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:57:41 -
[23] - Quote
I think using 2011 is a bit of an outliar.
My son was born in 2011 so iw as hardly playing eve, but when I checked the forums I know they were blowing up due to the summer of rage. You are pretty much using the one year where there was most likely a TON on whine threads as yoru base. Where as I think if you removed 2011 and looked at 2010 your data would not have such a huge gap.
But as stated, other means are in use to discuss eve. TMC, Fail-heap, twitter, FB, reddit, the list goes on and on. Also the forums are only used by a very small % of the player base, I think its something like 1-5%. So any losses in that 1-5% will be HUGE on the forms. Its not a good indication of anything except wondering why people are not posting. The reasons could be all over.
But again, I think your data is majorly flawed with your choice to start in 2011. I'd like to see 2010 compared to 12, 13 and 14
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
|
|
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
13701
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 20:44:34 -
[24] - Quote
Ok so here's what I can throw your way - http://eve-files.com/chribba/forumdata2014.html
That's threads and posts for all subforums (bc I was lazy and didn't want to start sorting) from 2003 until right now.
Note that my numbers will not be same as CCP's numbers for a few different reasons.
1. I may have missed both threads and posts from being indexed
2. I may have accidently indexed threads twice or even three times making duplicates, it happens, posts should be way less duplicates due to me actually checking for those
3. CCP moves threads to different subforums, I still treat them in the forum they were first indexed in - resulting in that CCP's number will have it in both forums, one for the thread and one for the "this thread was moved-post"
4. I have both threads and posts indexed that CCP has removed
5. Anything else that could render my numbers invalid lol
Beyond that the numbers should be fairly close and similar to CCP's and fairly accurate representation I believe - but there will be odd stuff showing for sure.
/c
GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà
Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'
Twitter @Chribba
|
|
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
1182
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 20:47:54 -
[25] - Quote
While others are free to do their own homework, my own time is not unlimited, nor do I have the tools necessary for collecting more detailed metrics on forum usage. I picked 2011 because that was the last year CCP Zymurgist ran these forums.
You are welcome to count every post if you like, of course. Of course, CCP could volunteer this information, but as it is likely not flattering I doubt they will. And CCP Diagoras is long gone anyway.
Even if CCP did release this information going back to 2003, I do not think a positive trend would emerge over the last few years, nor are 2011-2007 really comparable due to extreme differences in enforcement of policy between the two periods.
As for the summer of rage - well, not sure if that affected all subforums, and while it may have elevated posting for a time, i'm sure it would flatten out over the course of a calendar year. After all, forum drama wasn't exclusive to 2011.
Ah, I can see Chribba posted as I type this. Interested to read his comment.......
|
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
18901
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 20:55:24 -
[26] - Quote
EVE General Discussion
Year / threads / posts
2003 10404 152671
2004 20602 294654
2005 16167 288824
2006 24949 474280
2007 25528 512397
2008 20554 444657
2009 14792 299454
2010 11846 239542
2011 27780 511625
2012 33262 520918
2013 13280 426078
2014 7206 335329
Now you see, the number of threads may be down, but the number of posts per thread is as high or higher than ever!
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7187
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 20:55:27 -
[27] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Ok so here's what I can throw your way - http://eve-files.com/chribba/forumdata2014.html
That's threads and posts for all subforums (bc I was lazy and didn't want to start sorting) from 2003 until right now. Note that my numbers will not be same as CCP's numbers for a few different reasons. 1. I may have missed both threads and posts from being indexed 2. I may have accidently indexed threads twice or even three times making duplicates, it happens, posts should be way less duplicates due to me actually checking for those 3. CCP moves threads to different subforums, I still treat them in the forum they were first indexed in - resulting in that CCP's number will have it in both forums, one for the thread and one for the "this thread was moved-post" 4. I have both threads and posts indexed that CCP has removed 5. Anything else that could render my numbers invalid lol Beyond that the numbers should be fairly close and similar to CCP's and fairly accurate representation I believe - but there will be odd stuff showing for sure. /c
If there's one guy you can always count on here in the EVE-O forums, it's Chribba.
Thanks for the info, bro.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
1182
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 21:06:59 -
[28] - Quote
Well, have some last minute Xmas shopping to do, so no time to really parse the information Chribba dropped here....
Thanks for that, BTW Chribba. Quite interesting.
Snap assessement, seems to agree that there has been a massive forum contraction.
Yes, posts per thread is up, threads are down - but overall posts are significantly down.
A few things jumped out at me
Features/Ideas subforum is up in the last two years - likely due to the recent practice of ship balancing DEV stickies going there.
But generally, it seems quite bleak, across nearly all subforums.
S&M has collapsed.
Market is way down.
CAOD, also imploded, though that may have been a good thing.
OOPE, one of my former favorites, has also collapsed
GD had a dip during 2009/2010, but overall posting numbers are down significantly.
Will have to look over that table a bit more when I'm not being hurried out the door.... |
Haleuth
The Conference Elite
CODE.
12
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 21:18:27 -
[29] - Quote
It's all down to entertainment, once upon a time these forums were the funiest forums on the internet, lots of funny stories about someone getting scammed, blown up etc.
Now it's full of whine, clothing and star image type threads from a bunch of whitless dullards.
Hal |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5946
|
Posted - 2014.12.25 03:17:25 -
[30] - Quote
One thing I could add. The Live Events of 2010 might have spiked overall game interest. They pretty much came to an end in 2011 and Incursions became "canned" content. But 2010 was a very lively year with epic incidents.
The Live Events were unplanned, never announced, and you never knew what was going to happen. CCP Dropbear is gone though, and he took his notes with him and the tools he used are too outdated for the present system as well. Those epic days are behind us.
From the perspective of IGS (yes the nerd of nerd RPers) there was SYNE, FC0RD and A'J centered on the Sansha threat and incursions generally but since 2011 they have tapered off. The return if Hilen however has some resurgence in A'J since that was his project. Hilen Tukoss was a "NPC" run by an actor, but all of that came to an abrupt end one day. along with all that was the "Dropbear Era" of live events. Again, the staff and tools for that are also of a bygone age.
I think the live events have more to do with "all around" interest in the game than any expansions or content. That would mean more involvement in the forums - for interaction with other players involved and the sharing of clues. Dealing with the Sansha live events was approached almost in the same manner of a military think tank. Losing ships and "not making ISK" because of live event? NOBODY who cared was bothered by that. Anybody who did care was like the stuffed shirt in the room talking about hangovers before the first round of drinks were served.
People loved the live events, and without them, it's just min-maxers and someone else's idea of "emergent" or the term used as cover for some other agenda. Much of the game has fallen to mechanics that enable people whose idea of "playing the game" is to prevent others from playing it. For that most people will shrug and move on.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |