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Is it time to boost Medium Rails?

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Kye Kenshin Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.12 17:29:00 - [31] Simple fix is to give the Ferox 2 more turret hardpoints and the moa one more turret hardpoint. If you boost the actual dmg of med rails you are also giving a boost to Gal cruisers/BC and the Eagle same thing if you reduce rail pg too. www.beaglecorp.com \| Join "BEAGLEPUBLIC" channel ingame.
Nafri Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.12 17:44:00 - [32] Its just that 10% range is not very sexy, unless you use tech2 guns 2x +10% is very sexy again, especially with tech2 guns From Dusk till Dawn
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.12 18:18:00 - [33] Originally by: Makaera Ko**o The Eagle is possibly one of the least popular HACs in the game AFAIK- or at least I see them very rarely, even in Caldari space, and I don't think I've seen even once since I moved to 0.0. Maybe if we got some kind of boost, that would change. And that would not be a bad thing. The eagle, like the muninn is selling for over 3 to 4 times build cost. Thta indicates that there is a very high demand. For comparison, look at the logistics ships, which sell for more like 50% over build cost or less depending on how you calculate it. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.12 18:38:00 - [34] If you would boost rail damage you would need to make the damage bonus on gallente ships apply on blasters only. With the 25% damage bonus a 250mm does right now (including the dps reduction from reload) 2% more damage than a heavy beam with a 50% cap bonus and needs less cap/time, too. So from that point of view rails do not really need a boost. The 50% range bonus of caldari ships is not that hot, granted, but it has it's uses. Name any other race which can use t1 cruisers for sniping. The real problem of it is that you cannot keep a target from warping when you snipe at it (you could use a tackler, of cource, but why then using snipers anyway?).
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.12 19:04:00 - [35] Originally by: Mjala except the rokh every caldari ship trade dmg for range. compare thorax with omen/maller/rupture. they make all near the same dmg. If you'd read about the Roc, you'd know it's getting a range bonus just like every.other.caldari.railship. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.12 19:08:00 - [36] Originally by: Ricky Baby a 250mm railrox out DPS's a missile ferox with ease. problem is fitting the thing - on my ferox to get a tank i have 2 RCU's and a PDU on it :\| Railrox vs passive tanked fury missilerox = Railrox dies past 40km or so. And if/when assaults are added? T2 rage assaults? Pwnage on the railrox. When the drake comes out, I really hope the ferox loses 2-3 missile points and gets 2 rail points. Give the moa another railspot too ffs. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.09.12 19:54:00 - [37] Originally by: Hoshi It's not so much medium rails as it's the concept of sniping with medium guns. Even with range bonuses you don't get enough range to an effective sniper. Rails just enhance this problem by trading damage for range. So you end up with ships that neither do enough damage nor has the enough range to make up for it. You mean you end up with ships that track frigates perfectly anywhere from 200 to 10km.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.12 20:38:00 - [38] Originally by: inSpirAcy The Ferox really ought to have 7 turret points - who decided a weird hybrid sniping missile boat was a good idea, anyway? If your ferox gets 7 hardpoints I want 7 on my cyclone as well CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.12 20:53:00 - [39] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: inSpirAcy The Ferox really ought to have 7 turret points - who decided a weird hybrid sniping missile boat was a good idea, anyway? If your ferox gets 7 hardpoints I want 7 on my cyclone as well It'd cost you your rate of fire bonus... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.12 21:16:00 - [40] Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: Sorja Some roleplayer wants to keep Caldari as a range race, forgetting that most combat occurs upon jumping through a gate and thus at short range. So use missiles? The topic is about the usefullness of medium rails. Of course most Caldari use missiles, that's the point of this topic, there is little incentive to use turrets with Caldari ships specialized in range while range is difficult to achieve. Quote: I don't know of any Gallentean ships that do short range work with rails, either. A taranis with rails is a very nice ship, and just compare the damage output of a rail Deimos to a rail Eagle at 0-30km. Gallantean ships have the ability to mount rails aswell as blasters, while Caldari are so sluggish it's always an exercise in frustration to try to fit them with blasters (which won't be effective anyways since they'll lose a great part of the range bonus and won't get a damage bonus in return). Another example: minnie ships. They can mount artillery or autocanons and be effective with both. They have the speed/agility to use blasters effectively and the alpha strike to hit hard at longer range. I've seen Munnins pop interceptors from 70km away before the ceptor pilot could say 'oops', and they were no noobs, they knew how to build transversal and such things. So where the Eagle is supposed to be king, he's not alone, while where other ships are devastating the Eagle is just lolastic. ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.09.12 21:26:00 - [41] Originally by: Sorja Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: Sorja Some roleplayer wants to keep Caldari as a range race, forgetting that most combat occurs upon jumping through a gate and thus at short range. So use missiles? The topic is about the usefullness of medium rails. Of course most Caldari use missiles, that's the point of this topic, there is little incentive to use turrets with Caldari ships specialized in range while range is difficult to achieve. Please don't quote out of context just to support your argument. I clearly stated that Gallente don't use rails as short range weapons, which the OP presumably wanted to. They use their short range weapon (blasters) and Caldari should use theirs (missiles, assault eventually) in the same situation. Rails will always be a mid-long range weapon and nothing's going to change that. Range isn't difficult to achieve. You just choose the 'Warp to xkm' button and off you go. You'll never have the edge at gate ganks with rails, nor should you have with ranged weapons. Quote: A taranis with rails is a very nice ship, and just compare the damage output of a rail Deimos to a rail Eagle at 0-30km. We were discussing medium and large rails. The OP already acknowledged that small rails were useful, hence my quote was (again) in context.
Mjala	Posted - 2006.09.12 21:35:00 - [42] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Mjala except the rokh every caldari ship trade dmg for range. compare thorax with omen/maller/rupture. they make all near the same dmg. If you'd read about the Roc, you'd know it's getting a range bonus just like every.other.caldari.railship. Originally by: Mjala Originally by: Astrum Proeliator I was under the impression the Rokh was getting range bonus not damage? right, but... 8x 425mm is near 7x 425mm + 25%dmg the mega will outdamage a rokh every time, but not that high compared to deimos and eagle. with biggest rails and 3x magstabs: ~30dps difference between mega and rokh ~100dps difference between deimos and eagle
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.12 21:37:00 - [43] Originally by: inSpirAcy Range isn't difficult to achieve. You just choose the 'Warp to xkm' button and off you go. Could you point me at the option where you select at what range you uncloak from the gate you just jumped through? In my EVE career, 90% of the time I'm on the 'jump in' side, do I have to train for another race because my corp fighting style doesn't go along with my race turret ships? Quote: We were discussing medium and large rails. The OP already acknowledged that small rails were useful, hence my quote was (again) in context. The Deimos does use medium hybrids, I'm in context. ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Extregar Qvint Caldari JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.09.12 21:41:00 - [44] Originally by: Sorja So where the Eagle is supposed to be king, he's not alone, while where other ships are devastating the Eagle is just lolastic. You dont think little of the Eagle when you get caught in a dictor bubble and a couple of them is sitting well off and fiering at you.
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.09.12 21:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Sorja Originally by: inSpirAcy Range isn't difficult to achieve. You just choose the 'Warp to xkm' button and off you go. Could you point me at the option where you select at what range you uncloak from the gate you just jumped through? You are so infuriatingly bad at quoting... I'm not even going to repeat myself, go read the part about "rails will never have an edge at gate ganks". Yes, that's you going in and you shouldn't have the edge with long range weapons. Quote: In my EVE career, 90% of the time I'm on the 'jump in' side, do I have to train for another race because my corp fighting style doesn't go along with my race turret ships? Really hate missiles that much? Then fit blasters, the Beagle doesn't have a special name because it's not used. Quote: The Deimos does use medium hybrids, I'm in context. Again with the cutting out mention of the Taranis. Do you do underquoting for a living? I didn't even contest the Deimos quote, because I think a rail Deimos is a silly idea. It has an MWD bonus, I can't see a reason not to fit blasters to it.
Novael	Posted - 2006.09.13 00:35:00 - [46] Well ... I made the swich from Lasers to Hybrids i.e Amarr to Gallente. And I say... Medium Rails are just sick on a Vexor.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.09.13 04:20:00 - [47] It has been brought up that 10% to range does act as a getto damage bonus. This is true, however, the brutix does the same dps at rannge as the ferox. why? the brutix has 2 more guns. heavy missles on the ferox help close the gap, but not much. They are not instant damage, nor do they come close in dps. The ferox needs fitting mods to fit a full rack of rails and a tank, before we even get into trying to put on heavy missle launchers. The problem is not the rails, it's the hard point layout. Fact is, the brutix outdamages the ferox at any range, until it gets out of range. This is before drones are taken into consideration. The moa? well, lets not got there :(
Troubadour Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.09.13 08:31:00 - [48] Edited by: Troubadour on 13/09/2006 08:36:05 I used to have another char that I trained specifically as a long range caldari railsniper. With his eagle he could easily kill frigates, shuttles, pods, indys, destroyers, and even some assault frigs (minmatar) in 1-4 volleys from 200km (lowsec sniping 4tw). one day I racked up 60 kills with him in one system(getting killed and podded in a shuttle afking it through usually un-pirated territory can be annoying, to say the least). Cruisers posed a bit more tough, but loading up javlin or antimatter and warping into like 50km I could easily burn through all but the best tanked ones. I even killed a ferox in this fashion. Since the eagle has a bonus to it's resists, I could also passively tank the gate guns long enough to warp in, kill cruiser, pod pilot, warp out. It really was quite fun. I get what you are saying, rails don't do that much dmg or whatever. Their bonus is range, consistancy of damage, and tracking. A low RoF (compared to other weapons of the same class), very good tracking compared to other long range weapons, and the fact you can reach out and touch someone instantly make them ideal sniper weapons. If you want more damage, slap on more mag stabs. my alt's eagle used 3 on the snipe setup. With skills and implant bonuses it came out to something like a 7 or 8x dmg mod. That's no laughing matter if you are a rifter warping to said gate at 15km. I fear that the Rokh will become the bane of lowsec with it's range ability coupled with LARGE rails. If I had 8 425s instead of 4 250mms, I would of wasted a lot more people when I had my alt.
Makaera Koshito Caldari Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2006.09.13 14:06:00 - [49] Edited by: Makaera Ko**o on 13/09/2006 14:06:09 I was hoping someone else would do this, but here are the stats for each weapon. Legend: Gun Type T1PG/T1CPU- T2PG/T2CPU T1DMG/T1RoF- T2DMG/T2RoF Dual 150mm 80/32- 84/35 1.5/3.9- 1.8/3.9 200mm 180/35- 189/39 2/4.8- 2.4/4.88 250mm 225/40- 236/44 2.75/6.38- 3.3/6.38 Heavy Electron 100/30- 105/33 1.75/3- 2.1/3 Heavy Ion 150/35- 158/39 2.8125/4.5- 3.375/4.5 Heavy Neutron 225/37- 236/41 3.5/5.25- 4.2/5.25 I didn't really know an easier way to put it out there. But, I wanted to compare how these look side by side. My complaint about this is not about how blasters are uber. They should be awesome, since you take the chance of dying before you even get a shot off, because you have to get so close. My complaint is exactly that of what someone said already: most or all of my PvP encounters have been at the "jump in" point of gates. Most fighting in Eve occurs at the gates. No Caldari Railboat is built for that type of fighting, IMO, but we are generally forced to take part in that type of fighting. Looking at the stats, the best and worst guns (Dual 150s/Electrons and 250mm/Neutrons) are reasonably balanced fitting-wise. From what I've seen, Gallente ships generally have more PG and Caldari ships usually have more CPU. When I was looking at the Ions, though, I had to check to make sure I was looking at the right gun, since the fitting requirements are so much less, proportionately, than the 200mm. For splitting damage and tanking, Ions are the way to go, it seems. Going from Dual 150mm to 200mm you have a 125% increase in PG requirements and maybe about 10% CPU. Going from Electrons to Ions, you only have a 50% increase in PG requirements and about 15% increase in CPU. Quite a bit of unbalance between weapon types, since blasters and rails can be interchanged on Gallente, but don't translate very well to Caldari. Additionally, it seems that the Dual 150s/Electrons and the 200/Ions are reasonably balanced as far as DMG and RoF go. They are about what I would expect to see. However, looking at the DMG and RoF on the 250 and Neutrons, it seems to me that the Neutrons are just disproportionately more powerful. Neutrons have nearly a 33% higher damage rate and almost 18% faster RoF. For having about the same fitting requirements, IMO, this is highly unbalanced. So, I don't have a so much of a problem with the damage differences (except on Neuts vs 250mm), but I do have a problem with RoF differences... on all the guns. Gallente get a damage bonus on nearly every ship, so even if it looks like there is a very small difference between blasters' and rails' base stats, that's not counting the Gallente ship bonus, which could be as little as 15-20% for the average player or 25% for a more advanced player. All Blasters have a better RoF than Rails. So, the Gallente player should always have an advantage solo. Any thoughts on this stuff? Sorry for so much. It's just the first time in a couple days I've been able sit down at a computer and type it out.
Ixian001a Caldari Phioniex Lords	Posted - 2006.09.13 15:50:00 - [50] Taking the Moa as an example (just because I fly one ) If you look at the dps it can throw out its pathetic. Its only at the more extreme ranges where you can start experiencing an advantage with medium rails. Its not the medium rails that are broken, but the ships which are supposed to use them.
Makaera Koshito Caldari Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2006.09.13 17:28:00 - [51] Originally by: Ixian001a Taking the Moa as an example (just because I fly one ) If you look at the dps it can throw out its pathetic. Its only at the more extreme ranges where you can start experiencing an advantage with medium rails. Its not the medium rails that are broken, but the ships which are supposed to use them. Yes, we all know that. There have been numerous threads about that, and likely numerous petitions about that. I'm just trying to look at this problem from a different perspective, and hopefully have the devs see it, too. In a way, I guess I'm "settling" with this solution, taking something that I could live with- better Medium Rails- and at least getting something, instead of hoping for a lot more- viable Caldari Railboats- and probably not getting anything.

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