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Is it time to boost Medium Rails?

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Makaera Koshito Caldari Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2006.09.12 05:50:00 - [1] Some corp-mates and I were talking about the utter shame that Medium Rails are in this game. I've been trying to figure out why the Moa and Railox just don't measure up to their Missile counterparts and I think it is because Medium Rails just don't do enough damage. I can two-three shot Inties and Frigs with Small Rails, and we all know that Large Rails can one shot Inties and Frigs, but I can't even kill a Pod before they warp away when I use Medium Rails. I use Small Rails on my Harpy and they perform brilliantly. I don't use Large Rails yet- though I am trained for them- because I'm waiting for the Rokh, but I know from being on the wrong end of them, that they are rather effective killers. What do y'all think about this? Is is the guns? The Ships? Or, dare I say it, the pilot?
Dread Phantom Caldari Project-Chaos	Posted - 2006.09.12 05:51:00 - [2] its the lack of damage bonus on those ships
Mjala	Posted - 2006.09.12 06:30:00 - [3] except the rokh every caldari ship trade dmg for range. compare thorax with omen/maller/rupture. they make all near the same dmg.
Astrum Proeliator Caldari eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.12 08:36:00 - [4] I was under the impression the Rokh was getting range bonus not damage?
Lorette Gallente Grandma's WIth Guns	Posted - 2006.09.12 08:40:00 - [5] Why does it have to be medium rails that are bad when you compare them against missles, maybe the missles are just overpowered ^^. Anyway in all seriousness i use med rails pretty much exclusively, they are perfect for killing cruisers while drones can take anything smaller. (If you get inties/frigs on approach the rails still work fine aswell).
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.12 09:06:00 - [6] It's not so much medium rails as it's the concept of sniping with medium guns. Even with range bonuses you don't get enough range to an effective sniper. Rails just enhance this problem by trading damage for range. So you end up with ships that neither do enough damage nor has the enough range to make up for it.
Mjala	Posted - 2006.09.12 09:24:00 - [7] Originally by: Astrum Proeliator I was under the impression the Rokh was getting range bonus not damage? right, but... 8x 425mm is near 7x 425mm + 25%dmg the mega will outdamage a rokh every time, but not that high compared to deimos and eagle. with biggest rails and 3x magstabs: ~30dps difference between mega and rokh ~100dps difference between deimos and eagle
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.12 09:25:00 - [8] The Rokh is getting a range bonus, yes. Medium rails' problem is that they are so darned hard to fit on a decent setup. Especially if you are Gallente (200mm Rails is the highest tier rail... right? RIGHT!?). "But this doesn't aply to the Caldari ships, they can fit a full rack of 250mms", well they can't. Their full rack isn't as full as it is supposed to be. The Moa is missing a hard point and the Ferox is quite possibly missing two. - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Makaera Koshito Caldari Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2006.09.12 10:26:00 - [9] Originally by: Ithildin The Rokh is getting a range bonus, yes. Medium rails' problem is that they are so darned hard to fit on a decent setup. Especially if you are Gallente (200mm Rails is the highest tier rail... right? RIGHT!?). "But this doesn't aply to the Caldari ships, they can fit a full rack of 250mms", well they can't. Their full rack isn't as full as it is supposed to be. The Moa is missing a hard point and the Ferox is quite possibly missing two. I'm glad someone at least sees part of what I'm trying to say. My OP was badly argued, and I wanted to invite other races to chip in to compare their equivalent to Medium Rails. Yes, part of my post compared a T2 ship with a T1 ship, which is an inherently flawed argument. But, that doesn't change the fact that Caldari rail ships have simply gotten the shaft. The problem is, Caldari rail ships are just gimpy, really. The Ferox has the least PG of any BC. There's no way you can fit 5x 250s on there and have a decent tank, even if they are the only thing in the highs. The Moa's main weapon is supposed to be rails, but it only gets 4 of them, vs. the Thorax which gets 5 blasters and a damage bonus and an MWD penalty-bonus to make it that much more effective. The Moa and Ferox both have two bonuses that don't complement each other at all. A long range gun bonus, but a short range shield resistance bonus? All these cries for "OMG Nerf Caldari" are from people who have been ECMed or Missiled one too many times. Those of us who have our skills in Gunnery and basically have 1 good railboat (Harpy) just shake our heads at the hand we've been dealt with the shame that are rails. I don't want to have to go Gallente, but at the end of this week, I will be flying a 'rax for the first time, and honestly, I'm kinda scared that I might never go back to Caldari.
Carmen Estiete Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.12 10:41:00 - [10] You know, it's no wonder I feel so uncomfortable piloting larger ships within the Caldari tier the way this thread talks about them. I've been shy of the Moa for a while, and in the end it just doesn't seem worth it to be able to shoot things from very far away when I just can't seem to be as effective as I am in my Omen. There are just some disheatening problems with the Caldari mid-level railboats... ::sigh:: if I can do more dmg within ten seconds with my Cormorant than my Ferox, there just seems to be a problem. ________________________________________________ "This is my sig. There is one almost exactly like it, but the slight distinction that explains thus, makes this sig mine."
Dread Phantom Caldari Project-Chaos	Posted - 2006.09.12 10:46:00 - [11] I have caldari frig/cruiser/battleship 5 and i still better off flying gallent
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.12 10:47:00 - [12] Boost medium rails and make the eagle kill interceptors even more easily at 200km? Maybe not. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.09.12 10:55:00 - [13] I don't see much wrong with rails, just the ships they're fitted on. The Ferox really ought to have 7 turret points - who decided a weird hybrid sniping missile boat was a good idea, anyway? Likewise the Moa, it's trying to be two things and failing at both. My Brutix performs great with 200mm / 250mm because it can mount seven of them (with a bit of tweaking for 250mm) and gets a damage bonus on top. But I wouldn't dream of fitting medium / large rails to any Caldari ships bar the Rokh and the Eagle.
Ricky Baby Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.12 11:25:00 - [14] a 250mm railrox out DPS's a missile ferox with ease. problem is fitting the thing - on my ferox to get a tank i have 2 RCU's and a PDU on it :\|
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.12 11:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Dread Phantom its the lack of damage bonus on those ships QFT The Caldari rail platforms suck. Only the Harpy is rather ok. Some roleplayer wants to keep Caldari as a range race, forgetting that most combat occurs upon jumping through a gate and thus at short range. If you could uncloak 100km away from a gate, I'd fly my Eagle though. ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Ishmael Hansen	Posted - 2006.09.12 12:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Dark Shikari Boost medium rails and make the eagle kill interceptors even more easily at 200km? Maybe not. Eagle won't kill interceptors at 200km unless they stuck or something, they will warp away when they see the eagle tickling.
Makaera Koshito Caldari Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2006.09.12 12:00:00 - [17] Edited by: Makaera Ko**o on 12/09/2006 12:03:09 Originally by: Dark Shikari Boost medium rails and make the eagle kill interceptors even more easily at 200km? Maybe not. And... so? Do one thing and do it well, right? The Eagle is possibly one of the least popular HACs in the game AFAIK- or at least I see them very rarely, even in Caldari space, and I don't think I've seen even once since I moved to 0.0. Maybe if we got some kind of boost, that would change. And that would not be a bad thing.
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.09.12 12:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Sorja Some roleplayer wants to keep Caldari as a range race, forgetting that most combat occurs upon jumping through a gate and thus at short range. So use missiles? I don't know of any Gallentean ships that do short range work with rails, either.
VeNT Minmatar Freelancer Union	Posted - 2006.09.12 12:03:00 - [19] sure boost med rails but give projectiles a artillery between 650 and 720, and make them have the same damage and range and tracking, infact, lets make ALL the weapons EXACTLY the same so no-one has anything to moan about! -------------------- Selena 001 > has VeNT left system? its gone really quiet!
Laythun Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.12 12:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: Dark Shikari Boost medium rails and make the eagle kill interceptors even more easily at 200km? Maybe not. Eagle won't kill interceptors at 200km unless they stuck or something, they will warp away when they see the eagle tickling. you know nothing. The arguement is flawed as rails are fine with gallente, what you actually need to ask for is a look at caldari rail ships. Sig Removed. Some contents are not appropriate for Eve. -ReverendM ([email protected]) Remember to include a copy of your image.See You In Space Cowboy[/url]
Scordite	Posted - 2006.09.12 12:21:00 - [21] Edited by: Scordite on 12/09/2006 12:22:13 I'm really curious as to why very few people seem to understand that a range bonus also means more damage. Place a ship with range bonus and a ship with damage bonus right next to each other and have them shoot the same target. The ship with the damage bonus will hit harder with the ammo he uses to keep the target just inside optimal, while the ship with range bonus will do less damage if he uses the same ammo. But, the same ammo puts the target well into his optimal, and there's absolutely no reason not to move down a couple ammo types, which brings your optimal down to the same as the damage bonus ship, but using ammo which does more damage. At extreme ranges, the damage bonus ship won't even be able to hit, so advantage goes to range bonus. At very short ranges, both ships will be using shortest range ammo, and this is where the damage bonus ships shine. Edit: Oh, and make small lasers easier to fit ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Freyda Gallente Celestial Industries	Posted - 2006.09.12 12:25:00 - [22] I can't really be asked to fish out the charts that someone made for damage against range.. I may do after a few more coffees.... But anyways, the range bonus causes caldari ships to out damage ships with a damage bonus at high the extreme range of their guns. So a gallente ship may do more damage at say.. 30 km, but the caldari ship with the range bonus will do more damage than the gallente ship at 50 km. The Damage bonus from to rails makes gallente ships better at medium to short range, but at longer ranges Caldari ships like the Ferox dps becomes higher because of that hefty optimal range bonus. You guys really need to factor that in.. the range of an engagement effects your dps a LOT, It effects your dps more than even your SP in gunnery does. At the extreme max range of railguns ranges, a ferox with equal gunnery skills to a ship like the brutix using the same rails and some number of damage mods will out damage it. But at closer ranges of engagement then the Brutix's damage bonus will overtake the advantage that the extra optimal range gave the ferox. With the new Caldari battleship coming in with all those railguns, the caldari side will be able to snipe, at large, medium and small railgun levels, and have missle boats for more medium - short range.. though if they do go short range I'm gonna start putting nos's onto everything I fly :). Medium rails don't suck, if you have the skills and have someone else tackle for you then you can happily snipe far far away, outside of that pour Gal Brutix's effective railgun range, and laugh. Of course you have to hope that they're not a blasterix with a mwd.. or else without a tackler you're space dust.
X37 Z450 Amarr Sigma-Defect	Posted - 2006.09.12 12:33:00 - [23] Edited by: X37 Z450 on 12/09/2006 12:33:37 Originally by: Scordite Edited by: Scordite on 12/09/2006 12:22:13 I'm really curious as to why very few people seem to understand that a range bonus also means more damage. Place a ship with range bonus and a ship with damage bonus right next to each other and have them shoot the same target. The ship with the damage bonus will hit harder with the ammo he uses to keep the target just inside optimal, while the ship with range bonus will do less damage if he uses the same ammo. But, the same ammo puts the target well into his optimal, and there's absolutely no reason not to move down a couple ammo types, which brings your optimal down to the same as the damage bonus ship, but using ammo which does more damage. At extreme ranges, the damage bonus ship won't even be able to hit, so advantage goes to range bonus. At very short ranges, both ships will be using shortest range ammo, and this is where the damage bonus ships shine. Edit: Oh, and make small lasers easier to fit accept optimal is always antimatter or spike range
Galen Silas Gallente Digital assassins	Posted - 2006.09.12 12:53:00 - [24] I agree with this, rails donot doenough damage in my opinion, unless there fitted on a T2 sniping mega. Rails are good for NPC hunting thats about it, at leats thats what i have figured out, if your going PVP and your Gallente your better off using blasters, sure you have to get in close but thats not all that hard, and once you do you rip people new a**holes. I think the guns need a boost to damage either that or a higher ROF to compensate for it.
Blue Rider Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.09.12 13:46:00 - [25] When I looked at a few killboards I found one ship that was constantly part of the kills: the Eagle. The ship may be gimped for solo fighting but for groups, it is always able to get a shot in and stay out of range of tacklers. Now, on the medium rails, especially the 250mm... it seems to me that if you have no tank, except for a MAR in the case of gallentee, you should be able to fit a full rack of them but, alas... even with fitting mods, no tank, a MAR I can only squeeze on 6 250mm rails on my Brute. (I do not have AWU trained up on this character)
Slevin Kalebra	Posted - 2006.09.12 14:26:00 - [26] Originally by: Freyda <snip>But anyways, the range bonus causes caldari ships to out damage ships with a damage bonus at high the extreme range of their guns... at the extreme max range of railguns ranges, a ferox with equal gunnery skills to a ship like the brutix using the same rails and some number of damage mods will out damage it. This is true, but Caldari ships are also so damn slow and cumbersome that they seldom get to dictate the range. At least not for long.
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.09.12 15:52:00 - [27] Range bonus gives better damage?? Sure, in a perfect world perhaps - and we have plenty time to change ammo everytime the enemy comes a little bit closer, because keeping the distance sure is kind of difficult with the slowest race in the game...
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.12 16:21:00 - [28] ??? Ferox with 5x 250mm IIs is good out to 150km - 155km. Not like a tank is really needed when takeing shots at those ranges. Hell, add BC level 5 and you get to push it out to 160km+ with the exact same damage output as a eagle with HAC 5 trained off of hybrids only. The eagle only has the advantage of longer range. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
Freyda Gallente Celestial Industries	Posted - 2006.09.12 16:21:00 - [29] Then don't solo in a rail ferox.. geez.. Simple as that. I don't whine in a blaster ship when I can't get to them before they break my tank if I know it's not gonna work for me. Just go in a group.. sit back in your rail ferox while a tackler keeps them webbed, and when the rohk comes out, do the same. Simple as. If the set up you have doesn't work for solo then don't use the set up solo, don't be so fast to jump on the 'this game needs a rebalance' wagon. In my opinion amarr lasers need a fix WAAAAY before rails on Caldari do.
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.12 16:51:00 - [30] as was stated, it's not really the lack of a damage bonus, but more the lack of being a specialized ship. Ships like the Moa/Ferox loose damage because their highs are split too much between missiles/rails, so the ship really only gets half of it's bonus

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