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Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:19:00 - [1] Ok. Hearing people whine about how these missles can hit at all distances is getting annoying. If you die to a long range Torp Raven you need to watch Austin powers. Specifically the scene where the guy gets rolled over by the Steamroller.
xlop Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:31:00 - [2] i got a spare brain, pretty cheap, good working order, only used 1ce before
xlop Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:32:00 - [3] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 17/09/2006 02:27:17 Ok. Hearing people whine about how these missles can hit at all distances is getting annoying. If you die to a long range Torp Raven you need to watch Austin powers. Specifically the scene where the guy gets rolled over by the Steamroller. by that logic, lets give all turrent ships double their dmg mods, since at that range a raven can warp out WTF i fell stupid just posting that, cant u see how dumb what u posted is?
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:35:00 - [4] Quote: by that logic, lets give all turrent ships double their dmg mods, since at that range a raven can warp out Instant damage Vs reallly delayed damage. If you get hit at more than 100km up to 180km then you are either afk, dazzled by the bulbs of light slowly making their way to you, or just like the guy in austin powers who got rolled
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:38:00 - [5] Quote: sniper raven Problem right there. No one will fight in a raven at more than 60km. You end up firing scores of missles that gently drift off into space after your target warped away.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Quote: by that logic, lets give all turrent ships double their dmg mods, since at that range a raven can warp out Instant damage Vs reallly delayed damage. If you get hit at more than 100km up to 180km then you are either afk, dazzled by the bulbs of light slowly making their way to you, or just like the guy in austin powers who got rolled Torps are a high damage weapon. Long-range turrets are low damage. They both hit at the same range. Torps shouldnt even have the ability to hit that far at all, they should be 30km or so MAXIMUM. Javelins are sickly overpowered.
xlop Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:41:00 - [7] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Quote: by that logic, lets give all turrent ships double their dmg mods, since at that range a raven can warp out Instant damage Vs reallly delayed damage. If you get hit at more than 100km up to 180km then you are either afk, dazzled by the bulbs of light slowly making their way to you, or just like the guy in austin powers who got rolled i cant tell if ur joking, cos what u saying is so wrong. just because the mega can warp out the raven should do twice the damage? the raven should use no cap on launchers? the raven should get to chose dmg? the raven should get to then warp in at 5km and the sniper will miss it all the time yet the raven will do full dmg? the raven gets to defend itself vs anything that warps in close to it? the raven gets a TANK? if thats fair, give me turrets that fire on the end of a cycle, up my damage by 2x, lower my cap by 100%, give me ability to chose dmg, up my volley dmg by 200%, and improve my tracking so i can hit a BC for full dmg although its orbiting at 1km! please tell me now u understand whats wrong! if not, well, what can i say
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:52:00 - [8] Quote: the raven should use no cap on launchers? the raven should get to chose dmg? Yup. I fly Turret ships in PvP and Raven in PvE. I've been hit with huge alphas from some ships, or have rapid rof. Each weapon type has it's advantage. Atm Torps arn't used in fleet Vs Fleet ops. In gate camps yes, T2 Cruise and T2 torps are used, but that's under 30km.
xlop Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:54:00 - [9] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Quote: the raven should use no cap on launchers? the raven should get to chose dmg? Yup. I fly Turret ships in PvP and Raven in PvE. I've been hit with huge alphas from some ships, or have rapid rof. Each weapon type has it's advantage. Atm Torps arn't used in fleet Vs Fleet ops. In gate camps yes, T2 Cruise and T2 torps are used, but that's under 30km. u think its fine for you to do max dmg to a BC that is orbiting u at 1km while a turret ship cant even hit it once? if you see nothing else, at lest look at that one and say yeh missiles >> turrets atm by a good marjin
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:54:00 - [10] Quote: Torps are a high damage weapon. Long-range turrets are low damage I've been insta poped by a handful of sniping Turret BS. That doesn't happen with missles. The most powerful tactic fleets have is insta-poping. It eliminates Primary targets... well instantly.
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:56:00 - [11] I have a very reasonable solution for this. Torps do 5 dmg at 0Km, 100dmg at 5KM, 200 dmg at 10KM, 400dmg at 20Km and max dmg at 30K+ Now stfu and stop whining about the whiners. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:58:00 - [12] If torp range is so useless, you wouldn't mind if we capped torp range with skills at 30km?
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 02:59:00 - [13] Quote: u think its fine for you to do max dmg to a BC that is orbiting u at 1km while a turret ship cant even hit it once? if you see nothing else, at lest look at that one and say yeh missiles >> turrets atm by a good marjin at least come up with a practical example. Under 1km only missles on both sides hit. I'm going to argue that turrets are overpowered, cause they do instant damage. I mean wow turret users can fire off 10 rounds before my missles get there, take me to armour, and I don't have a rep and then warp away. Nerf T2 long range ammo! I was hit instantly at 200km by a BS for each shot at 200 damage even with resistances. 8 turrets *10 volleys, that isn't fair. the enemy ship just took 1 round of torps then ran.
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:00:00 - [14] Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 17/09/2006 03:00:43 Quote: If torp range is so useless, you wouldn't mind if we capped torp range with skills at 30km? Nerf it by all means to 50km for T1 and 80km for T2 Javs. that's where any Torp user will use Torps, any further You'r wasting ammo on the stars and space dust I also never said I was against not changing the range. read more carefully
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:01:00 - [15] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Quote: u think its fine for you to do max dmg to a BC that is orbiting u at 1km while a turret ship cant even hit it once? if you see nothing else, at lest look at that one and say yeh missiles >> turrets atm by a good marjin at least come up with a practical example. Under 1km only missles on both sides hit. I'm going to argue that turrets are overpowered, cause they do instant damage. I mean wow turret users can fire off 10 rounds before my missles get there, take me to armour, and I don't have a rep and then warp away. Nerf T2 long range ammo! I was hit instantly at 200km by a BS for each shot at 200 damage even with resistances. 8 turrets *10 volleys, that isn't fair. the enemy ship just took 1 round of torps then ran. So the torps hit at 200K and the uberoverpowered turret BS ran. Nice story.. doesn't quite help further your point though ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:02:00 - [16] Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 17/09/2006 03:04:35 Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 17/09/2006 03:03:12 Quote: So the torps hit at 200K Turrets hit, not torps. I've been hit by T2 turrets for 200+ damage at long ranges all the time while running tanks, T2 ammo does that, and if 2 large fleets meet you'll notice that it's all turret users. I've been playing for longer than most, and Yes missles used to be overpowered. I also use turrets. I have = skill points in both 4 mil and 4 mil. I'm interchangeable. Fleet I'd be a dumb ass to use torps at range. I'd waste ammo, not hit my targets. and miss every primary target announcement cause the turret users have poped him in 10 seconds.
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 17/09/2006 03:03:12 Quote: So the torps hit at 200K Turrets hit, not torps. I've been hit by T2 turrets for 200+ damage at long ranges all the time while running tanks, T2 ammo does that, and if 2 large fleets meet you'll notice that it's all turret users. I've been playing for longer than most, and Yes missles used to be overpowered. I also use turrets. I have = skill points in both 4 mil and 4 mil. I'm interchangeable. Fleet I'd be a dumb ass to use torps at range. Ok, thanks for stating the obvious. Years spent in game doesn't mean jack in this game. There are plenty of 3 yr old NOOBS in this game. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:06:00 - [18] Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 17/09/2006 03:07:00 and from your statments about how missles are great at range I'd say you are one of them. I choose every day between torps or turrets for PvP. An FC calls a primary the turrets pop the primary LONG before missles make it half way. This is the case eery time. We even get asked to bring turret ships and not missle boats so we can increase the chances of Insta-poping using turrets. Insta-popping is the most overpowered tactic by far and it's a turret exclusive club.
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Kelgen Thann I choose every day between torps or turrets for PvP. An FC calls a primary the turrets pop the primary LONG before missles make it half way. Y O U A R E R E P E A T I N G T H E O B V I O U S. BTW 4mil in gunnery... ROFL ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:16:00 - [20] Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 17/09/2006 03:16:13 Quote: BTW 4mil in gunnery... ROFL It lets me use one turret type at Tech 2. Turrets is not a weapon type, Hybrids are one, Projectile are one, lasers 1 and Missles 1. and yes I repet myself. Cause you are too, and to a larger extent. Turrets are overpowered cause of Insta-poping (strongest strategy for fleets in the game). I gladly take part in insta-poping as a turret user. Missles can hit at all ranges, and I take part in that too. Two overpowered stratagies using opposite weapon categories. That my little friend sounds balanced. Two Gigantic swords in two very different hands.
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:18:00 - [21] Only thing is there is no counter to insta-poping at all. Zero. Impossible to defend agaisnt. Missles at sniper ranges... Log off or warp away. Hence why Insta-poping is the ultimate fleet weapon. HELL you can insta pop a capital ship with turret users. I've seen it.
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:20:00 - [22] Quote: BTW 4mil in gunnery... ROFL And seriously that is your argument? I feel that this debate is a little mature for you after that comment. I probably outskill point you at 45 million skill points anyway.
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Only thing is there is no counter to insta-poping at all. Zero. Impossible to defend agaisnt. Missles at sniper ranges... Log off or warp away. Hence why Insta-poping is the ultimate fleet weapon. HELL you can insta pop a capital ship with turret users. I've seen it. I take it the only style of PvP in Eve is a giant BS fleet with turrets then? Because the last time my Tempest instapopped something at 200K.... LOL If your definition of PvP is a fleet fight where you just lock and shoot what your FC calls... then maybe missiles suck. However, if you like the majority of Eve players dont do fleet pvp on an hourly basis.. you might reconsider your blinded opinion. There is no way a missile should do max dmg at a sniping BS range, and then do the same dmg at 0K. Either force the missiles to do 50% of there dmg up close, or force them to have a max range of some 40-50K. This in reference to Torps.. and tech II included. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:26:00 - [24] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Quote: BTW 4mil in gunnery... ROFL And seriously that is your argument? I feel that this debate is a little mature for you after that comment. I probably outskill point you at 45 million skill points anyway. Yes, most defnitely you do. I'm sure that in relevance to this topic your 11mil in industry plays a majorly important role. I bow to your impressive ability to right click and train skill. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:28:00 - [25] Quote: 40-50K. This in reference to Torps.. and tech II included. cut that too close and you shut down PvE. Sansha Tyrants operate at 49km, and some other angels are pretty high too. 80km for both and that's ok. Enough for all cases. Since I'd never use torps at range I lose nothing, cause to be hit by a torp at 150km would make me even get embarrased that I got hit by it. If I say to someone I fired a bullet at your position. It will arrive as you can see in about 10 seconds... Don't move please..
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:30:00 - [26] Quote: time my Tempest instapopped something at 200K.... LOL The only time a solo player will engage at 200km is a pirate with a tackler at scram range. Get 5 turret users at sniping distance doing 200-400 damage per turret and you get yourself an insta pop of targets caught in a bubble/dictor shpere. Get 5 torp ravens and the guy gets to speed off and then warp away.
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:31:00 - [27] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Quote: 40-50K. This in reference to Torps.. and tech II included. cut that too close and you shut down PvE. Sansha Tyrants operate at 49km, and some other angels are pretty high too. 80km for both and that's ok. Enough for all cases. Since I'd never use torps at range I lose nothing, cause to be hit by a torp at 150km would make me even get embarrased that I got hit by it. If I say to someone I fired a bullet at your position. It will arrive as you can see in about 10 seconds... Don't move please.. You seem to have enough numbers to instapop everything smaller than the Sun. I'm sure you can muster enough numbers to bring out 2 interceptors to tackle? Sanshas operate at 49K, has no relevance to this discussion. Blasters only shoot upto 20K with tech II ammo. I dont see ppl complaining about there inability to kill the 49K range sansha. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:32:00 - [28] Quote: Yes, most defnitely you do. I'm sure that in relevance to this topic your 11mil in industry plays a majorly important role. I bow to your impressive ability to right click and train skill. Check the sell forums I'm doing a price check on my character. and for the record and I can post a screenie to this I have 500k in industry.
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:34:00 - [29] Quote: Blasters only shoot upto 20K with tech II ammo. I dont see ppl complaining about there inability to kill the 49K range sansha. Because they use rails, or switch to an apoc. You can muster enough to insta-pop. It's the most powerful tactic in the game, and that's impossible to argue. It is the death of a player who can't do anything at all using any kind of game mechanic or strategy to prevent this. Lock fast and fire. Target goes poof before the target could select what to warp to or mash the keyboard to fire back.
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:36:00 - [30] Edited by: Krulla on 17/09/2006 03:38:26 Both sides of this argument are pretty silly tbh. At short to medium range combat, torps are god. They can do good damage to just about everything, while using no cap, and leaving the midslots for a tank and the lows for damage mods. For large group large combat, however, the balance swings to turrets - instant damage is here way more important than the versatility missiles offer. Like said, a missile ship is a waste in large group long range combat. A missile user will simply watch his missiles drift off into the void, wasted, after the target has either warped out or been destroyed. At extreme short ranges, blasters and autocannons, however, rule the field. Here, the torps do not do enough damage to outdamage the DPS of the blasterships, and are outclassed, most of the time. Both have their uses, both are equally powerful in their own right. The only problem I see is that torpedoes (specificially javelin torps, which are a bit silly) offer by far the greatest bang for the buck at medium ranges (20km-50km) - Here, ranges are short enough that travel times aren't a huge factor, but long enough so that the short range turret BS aren't effective. Wether this is broken or not is in fact arguable, and this really isn't such a huge factor (Javelin rail megas, for instance, are also quite formidable at this range, although the penalities for Javelin charges are a lot worse than for Javelin Torpedoes). The only problem with BS sized missiles atm are Javelin torps - It's quite silly to have Torpedoes with the speed and precision of cruise missiles, while the penality (speed) is in most cases rather negliable. This is the one and only problem with missiles as I see it. Torpedoes are fine, Javelin torpedoes are not.
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:39:00 - [31] Quote: How often do you find instapop BS fleets in Eve? Fleets of 15-20 are beginning the insta-pop range, and if I partake in my alliance affairs that's all we are. 15-20 or more. Unless we are on af attack squads, or disposable cruiser/frig raids.
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:40:00 - [32] Originally by: Krulla Both sides of this argument are pretty silly tbh. At short to medium range combat, torps are god. They can do good damage to just about everything, while using no cap, and leaving the midslots for a tank and the lows for damage mods. For large group large combat, however, the balance swings to turrets - instant damage is here way more important than the versatility missiles offer. Like said, a missile ship is a waste in large group long range combat. A missile user will simply watch his missiles drift off into the void, wasted, after the target has either warped out or been destroyed. At extreme short ranges, blasters and autocannons, however, rule the field. Here, the torps do not do enough damage to outdamage the DPS of the blasterships, and are outclassed, most of the time. Both have their uses, both are equally powerful in their own right. The only problem I see is that torpedoes (specificially javelin torps, which are a bit silly) offer by far the greatest bang for the buck at medium ranges (20km-50km) - Here, ranges are short enough that travel times aren't a huge factor, but long enough so that the short range turret BS aren't effective. The only problem with BS sized missiles atm are Javelin torps - It's quite silly to have Torpedoes with the speed and precision of cruise missiles, while the penality (speed) is in most cases rather negliable. This is the one and only problem with missiles as I see it. Torpedoes are fine, Javelin torpedoes are not. KRulla, you are wrong about blasterships being king at extreme close range. Unless what you mean is a fight starting at 2K. Which happens just about 2% of the time. A Torp Raven fitted with a heavy tank, cap injector and a warp disruptor will almost NEVER lose a to a blasterthron The issue is definitely with Javelin torps. They go too fast and too far and do too much dmg for them to be considered torps. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:42:00 - [33] Quote: Here, ranges are short enough that travel times aren't a huge factor, but long enough so that the short range turret BS aren't effective I agree on all aspects of what you said as well as being silly. Allthough I'd say Jav torps fullfill their purpose perfectly, as Caldari ships also have the highest mass and sig radius, and slow speed makes perfect hits even more likely by having an impossible time to slip to the fringes of their opponents optimal. Should jav torps travel 150Km PLus. No I don't think they should. Maximum here should be 90km. No more.
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:44:00 - [34] Originally by: Wizie KRulla, you are wrong about blasterships being king at extreme close range. Unless what you mean is a fight starting at 2K. Which happens just about 2% of the time. A Torp Raven fitted with a heavy tank, cap injector and a warp disruptor will almost NEVER lose a to a blasterthron The issue is definitely with Javelin torps. They go too fast and too far and do too much dmg for them to be considered torps. Yes, like I said, Javelins are the biggest issue here. The only other real issue is the fact that it is too hard for blasterships to get into range - Most fights start at 20-30km, and at those ranges, the Raven will already have gotten a good few volleys in. Javelins are quite simply, broken. They need to be fixed.
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:47:00 - [35] Quote: Javelins are quite simply, broken. They need to be fixed. The only thing with Javs I would change would be their explosion radius and explosion velocity. I would make those two statistics the same as regular torps keeping all else as is.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.09.17 03:58:00 - [36] all T2 ammo needs to be removed and reviewed. it really is rather overpowered in general.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.17 04:44:00 - [37] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Quote: Blasters only shoot upto 20K with tech II ammo. I dont see ppl complaining about there inability to kill the 49K range sansha. Because they use rails, or switch to an apoc. Or they use a speed mod, like all short range ships. The Raven is the most versatile short range ship. Where the domi is useless at 30km, the Raven still shines, where the Armageddon stops being useful at 40km, the Raven still deals damage. This is why you saw a ton of ravens in the PvP tournament... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
DaveJ777	Posted - 2006.09.17 05:08:00 - [38] Originally by: Krulla It's quite silly to have Torpedoes with the speed and precision of cruise missiles Incorrect. Torps are not affected by Guided Missile Precision, while cruise are. Cruise are still more effective against small targets. ___________________________________________ I win eve! EVE server status:
Father Weebles The Royal Guard	Posted - 2006.09.17 05:22:00 - [39] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 17/09/2006 02:27:17 Ok. Hearing people whine about how these missles can hit at all distances is getting annoying. If you die to a long range Torp Raven you need to watch Austin powers. Specifically the scene where the guy gets rolled over by the Steamroller. great scene "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.09.17 05:25:00 - [40] Edited by: Tasty Burger on 17/09/2006 05:26:29 Originally by: DaveJ777 Originally by: Krulla It's quite silly to have Torpedoes with the speed and precision of cruise missiles Incorrect. Torps are not affected by Guided Missile Precision, while cruise are. Cruise are still more effective against small targets. No, sry, precision torps do more damage against small targets than regular cruise. I love how the OP talks about fleet combat and instapop as if thats extremely common. Its not. I'll hazard a guess and say that 90% of all pvp is at medium to small gang combat or solo, all three of which the raven pwns any other battleship because it does close range damage at long range without needing a MWD. Think of this: A torpedo, a tech 1 one, moves faster than a megathron or tempest with MWD. Whining about torpedos taking time to hit is stupid because a close range ship cant even start shooting until it gets at point blank, meanwhile a raven has already shot 5 volleys and ughsmashed the enemies armor. AND THE RAVEN DIDNT BURN ONE CAP UNIT TO GET THERE. The MWD users need to empty their capacitors just to get in range. Torpedos are like the old megapulse except they work at extreme short range and hit at ridiculous ranges. Overpowered. kplzlockthread.
DaveJ777	Posted - 2006.09.17 06:01:00 - [41] @#$% why do I have to re-select character every time I preview post?? ___________________________________________ I win eve! EVE server status:
DaveJ7	Posted - 2006.09.17 06:01:00 - [42] Originally by: Tasty Burger No, sry, precision torps do more damage against small targets than regular cruise. I said more effective, not more damage. The cruise will have a significantly faster RoF. Originally by: Tasty Burger AND THE RAVEN DIDNT BURN ONE CAP UNIT TO GET THERE. The MWD users need to empty their capacitors just to get in range. Cap boosters. Originally by: Tasty Burger Torpedos are like the old megapulse except they work at extreme short range and hit at ridiculous ranges. Overpowered. kplzlockthread. T2 torps do have a little too much range. But torps are supposed to be a very good medium range weapon. And while they can change damage types, if the types they have initially fitted dont work well against the target (eg. they were ratting and the enemy is hardened specifically to that type), by the time they have noticed this and start changing types, the enemy ship will be within range and wtfpwning them with their overpowered T2 guns. ___________________________________________ I win eve! EVE server status:

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