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Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.03.01 04:58:19 -
[1] - Quote
so how about we all compromise?
what if you only show up in local if you get into the system though a gate due to some eve related automatic autoconnect from the gate at moment of jump, but if you jump in though a WH no such thing happens unless you get within say 1AU of a gate while uncloaked or within 100,000km no matter what. (also if you log well you ship only warps 1,000,000km so if you went in to the system via gate logging off shouldn't count cause thats a very quick workaround)
make cloackers scanable. (just not easily) say t2 probes and time plus involve the whole afk thing too. (like scanning the down becomes easier so long as they stay within a certain radius say 1000km or maybe time the cloak has been active or ignore that as the whole AFK thing is dumb)
give recons a role bonus that allows them to find cloacks on dscan so long as its within 10km (or any ship of choice maybe make the ability for a module i dont really care)
this way we
1.) justify why hi lo and null have local that works
2.) take away the 100% certainty of local everywhere (gankers rejoice)
3.) introduce some new mechanics to the game
4.) finally have a reason to think of recons as recons
5.) have something to do while our favorite cloacker is insystem
6.) make the scan go up really slowly and say make it go though 16 stages (arbitrary number use whatever feels appropriate)
7.) hmm maybe make the ship scannable at say stage 9 for cloak skill lvl 1 10 for 2 and so on +1 for faction,deadspace or officer
make the scan last say 2 minutes (again arbitrary use whatever feel appropriate) and make it take 1 less scan for every hour that cloak has been in the 1000km radius or maybe for every hour its been active making you want to recycle it or move. heck this might also make more varieties of cloaks possible like shorter lock delay for say fewer scan levels just some idea for meta cloaks
besides how is afk cloaking an intel tool the person aint there to report anything at all.
i dont know about 6 and 7 just an idea.
and no i am not impartial
my favorite system has been regularly camped by a cloaker for the past half a year. its rather ridiculous (no i have not died as a result of this, there have been no tears involved) 5 out of 7 days that guy has been there on weekends he roams for a bit looking to hotdrop
no i dont have a problem with cloacking
do not give me this **** that moving is the counter that is not a counter that is giving the **** up
also do not give me the **** about afk cloaker is harmless because they aint there. mine is a hotdropper. so icant play in my favorite system ever. keep reading for my justification
but point is there is no defense other than have my friends waiting to counter. I will not make my friends wait for god knows how long for someone who will eventually come back and maybe decide that today will hotdrop day or just go to sleep i wont make my friends wait for who knows how long for a maybe that is about as boring as it can possibly get, hell it sounds worse than actually mining.
in the meantime i am just elsewhere i have been playing long enough to have carriers to move my **** anyways, but i think that takes away content and i am not willing to playing Russian roulette.
EDIT: on another consideration this would make black ops god damned terrifying as cynos dont count as gate jumps either. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.03.03 01:24:41 -
[2] - Quote
i dont agree with the spool up cause any PVE ship packs a truckload of DPS, for instance my tengu almost a 1000DPS my Bharg 1200 DPS, golem 1400DPS, Vindi can be pushed further still not to mention carriers, 30 seconds with that kind of DPS on field when the cyno locks you in place you are literally a sitting duck nothing short of a BC will survive long enough for the spool up of 30 seconds and lets face it thats not gona work.
you just made all ratters immune to being hot dropped. anything smaller in 30 seconds like say Ishtar will either kill the cyno frig or even cruiser or get far enough away to be out of engagement envelope. (maybe except the golem cause if its got torps it cant kill a frigate in time, then again 30 seconds against a flight of light drones is a loosing proposition for a frig) |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.03.04 15:59:15 -
[3] - Quote
because then noone would pvp roam in anything else |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 05:25:32 -
[4] - Quote
without local all industrial activity goes to high sec as hulk is literally falling apart when you just look at it. mac is just about the same and skiff still pack little punch and has no chance on it own with anything bigger than a cruiser, tho it is the only that might survive lon enough for help to arrive if it up against an individual or maybe 2.
but then lets say you took away local this makes BLOPS way the hell overpowered. no notice no defence short of being in the middle of a fleet defending you. you just made people sit in belts with miners and do nothing else.
you just made sure MY JF, F, RORQ, never leave the pos or warp anywhere other than POS/STATION, they have becomes too easy to catch.
in WH you might get some chance to warp something out before everything lands on grid.
you remove local you just forced people to camp and watch gates to make sure nothing has come though
you made the game boring for a large number of individuals. who now have to sit there permanently. or on shifts. just watching the screen. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.03.06 00:07:38 -
[5] - Quote
"These hostiles are cloaking, because they determined the effort to bypass your defenses required it, and they wanted to hunt something of economic value."
again how exactly? afk cloaki camping a system for weeks on end just forces people to move, as trying to defend against a hotdropper takes drastic measures, especially when your defending a mining fleet thats about as fragile as a paper baloon.
this is not hunting this is being a troll
like its been stated AFK cloak camping hasn't hurt anyone because all activity in system dies or moves elsewhere as doing otherwise is suicide. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 16:29:30 -
[6] - Quote
removing local wont work
the rewards for ratting in null is not going to allow it to work.
have you ever tried to rat as a group in null? well if you get say 10 players doing the same very profitable site you will end up getting something like 4 -5 mil a tick, at this point id be better of with high sec mission running.
why would the above be necessary?
1.) to make it like the WH space you would need to concentrate your group into a tight space, that way they can defend one another while this would work with mining seeing as increasing the number doesnt affect the profit per time base it hurts it very quickly and significantly with ratting activities. forcing those ratters to disperse and be vulnerable and practically solo.
2.) HOT DROP, not a problem for WH sure you might still have a group come though the WH and uncloak next to you but that takes a bit of work, getting up against a player and lighting the i win button cyno takes however significantly less and instantly brings overwhelming force. if it were to happen in WH space you might still have some hope of survival seeing as all the ratters are right there they may still come to your aid and maybe save your ass, but in null those same ratters would be dispersed over a constellation at least but probably over a region, there is no way they can ever make it to you to save you.
3.) you are also looking at populations hunting you, in NULL there is constantly someone out there looking for targets alot of those people dont bother going into WH specifically because the HOTDROP doesn't work there but all the pilots looking for a kill do look for it in null while only a small portion venture in WH. if you made cloaks remove you from local or remove local entirely you are looking at a rise in loses that might be even higher than an order or magnitude, you will drive ratting out of null as profits will plummet and it wont be worth it, especially with the security and profits afforded to high sec with incursions.
4.) if you remove local you will have to scale rewards for null way up that way those same people will still be able to make a profit while constantly loosing their 500mil + ratting ships.
5.) or just all start ratting in carriers within jump range of one another all fitted with a cyno that might work instead too. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 00:33:37 -
[7] - Quote
how is it going to affect hot droppers let me think
1.) get in system
2.) Dscan
3.) check ships
a.) if mining barges warp to ore anoms repeat till ship found light cyno
b.) if ratting ship wap to forskaen hub or sanctum/haven repeat till ship found light cyno
so you just check dscan instead of local big deal. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 03:10:12 -
[8] - Quote
GordonO wrote:Chatles wrote:----------. "so you just check dscan instead of local big deal." You may want to review the changes to recon ships.. and of course lots of course rumor has it some ships can warp cloaked.. wh and null are different, they should be treated differently.. making everything the same just because.. is not good for the game
"You may want to review the changes to recon ships"
lets see
1.) these can be seen they cant stay cloaked and warp cloaked
2.) these can be probed down
i am ok with those
3.) who here rats or mines in recons? i think they are a non issue for the attacker.
4.) hot drop i have no chance against (which becomes a walk in a park without local)
5.) hostile tackle/warp in i have some chance against
point is this will raise the cost of living in null sec while taking away all null sources of revenue as hot drops will become the number 1 way to do any pvp. it will force all ratters nd miners out of null back to high and will leave null populated by those who make their isk on the market in jita with an alt.
we really want to play that? or do we all just create alts in jita seeing as we wont be making isk with any of our sov space.
i have 4 accounts
that means i can leave surprise hot-dropper toons across 12 systems i am just a single individual.
this means that i alone em capable of locking down 2 entire constellations if i coordinate with my corp or well just 2 others like me in my corp we are capable of having waiting hot droppers across an entire region.
all we need to do is rotate which toon is on and check the said systems, finding someone to kill this way becomes too easy.
its a hot droppers wet dream. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 04:21:39 -
[9] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Grasor wrote:Alundil wrote:Grasor wrote:
...local chat is not the problem with being immune to hunting while cloaked, the cloaking mechanics that allow it are the cause of that problem.
CCP Fozzie clearly disagrees with you. Well then I guess I disagree with Fozzie!  Frankly, I'm disappointed that a representative of CCP would advocate that anything "AFK" is part of their game design. Sounds like a cop out to me. Think about it for a second. If local stops showing my avatar and that I'm there and I go AFK then you'll be perfectly 100% safe doing whatever you want to do. However, with the current mechanic you see that "I am in local" irrespective of whether or not I am AFK or not, and most players will err on the side of caution and assume I am not AFK and stay docked. So while AFK I can keep you from doing anything outside the station. Removing the current local system actually renders AFK cloaking impotent. Christ...how may farking times has this been explained?
you are correct afk cloaking becomes impotent
but then hot dropping becomes OMNIPOTENT |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 12:16:49 -
[10] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Not reading all these pages so this may have been mentioned before, but what if the denial of intel caused by cloaking worked both ways?
If I'm cloaked in your system, you don't see me on your overview or on your D-Scan, so why should I be able to see anyone else on my overview or D-Scan?
you can still warp and can then visually check the sites a little more work yes but you still maintain all the advantage in this system
while your target remains completely oblivious. wecome back to there is no defence |
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Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 17:19:14 -
[11] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Chatles wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Think about it for a second. If local stops showing my avatar and that I'm there and I go AFK then you'll be perfectly 100% safe doing whatever you want to do.
However, with the current mechanic you see that "I am in local" irrespective of whether or not I am AFK or not, and most players will err on the side of caution and assume I am not AFK and stay docked. So while AFK I can keep you from doing anything outside the station.
Removing the current local system actually renders AFK cloaking impotent.
Christ...how may farking times has this been explained? yes we get that but it seems you have a hard time grasping the following you are correct afk cloaking becomes impotent but then hot dropping becomes OMNIPOTENT how is that a solution? Now you're simply being obtuse.
how exactly without local and without a way to find said cloakers how is it not. anti local people here just go remove local.
which alone will make hot dropping cloakers damn near omipotent.
remove local but give me a way to survive too otherwise this wont work. how is me saying this being obtuse?
or if you think i still em give me an example of how em i going to defend myself then. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 23:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
hey go with that guy remove hot drops problem solved.
i think is a much better way to deal with this than removing local
all that dread over that instantaneous overwhelming force goes away cloaky campers still affect the system as they are still able to scram you and provide a warp in so you are now also vulnerable but able to maybe survive, many will still leave system as a result but cant please everyone.
so that fozzy line about there needing to be a way to affect us making isk is still there
i can now consider this risk acceptable as having a cloaky decloak on me is not an instantaneous death sentence.
everybody wins. well except that blops guy, he is stuck with a useless ship.
but that looks like it solves far more of the problems than removing local, at least is doesnt make any of em worse. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 04:10:46 -
[13] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:- I think null is the wrong place for you.  Yes, I know that is trite and cliche, but in this case true. Yes, you could be dropped if you undock and start doing stuffGäó, but at the same time that is part of null. And to be honest, I'd also favor removing information from places like dotlan such as gate jumps and rats killed. I'm opposed, in general, to free intel...whether that works for me or against me. And frankly, I'd be fine with removing the notion of True Sec in that if players occupy space and do stuff in it that space should get better the more they do over time, so even that would help you out. If I don't know you are doing stuff in system xyz-123 and making it "better" I probably wont be lurking around to drop Bad ThingsGäó you.
not for me?
i have lived in null for the past 5 years i love it out here. i have lost more tengus than i care to mention, i have lost nothing to afk cloaky campers.
yes i can be hot dropped, and i have been, yes i can be gate camped and i have been, yes i have had my attention slip and missed that red in local that got me killed, yes i have been awoxed, hell i have even passed out at the keyboard with my ship in space.
i am not ignorant or oblivious of the risks of living in null.
but thus far i have made significantly more than i have lost
i have multiple sources of revenue so i am not dependent upon that one choice system thats perma camped the **** out of.
as for true sec hell yes take that **** away, all it does it says good ratting space here please camp.
dotlan i dont use it. so indifferent to the free intel you mentioned
my argument essentially boils down to hot droppers will become overpowered without local, even if you have someone on gate all it takes is for some guy to log into the system, the gate never flashes and there is never any warning, so guarding gates becomes moot, and its not like they possibly stop SBs from coming in anyways catching one of those is rather challenging.
and that overpowering of hot dropping is what i am arguing against.
my fear is that all pve activity will become so vulnerable that ratters/miners will be unable to afford to continue living in null.
and all it will take is to get 1 toon in the system
i know people have been quoting fozzy that there needs to be a way to disrupt activity in null, i am just saying taking local away might just exterminate it instead. which becomes far more problematic when sov defense becomes tied to activity. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 13:24:08 -
[14] - Quote
removing local wont kill afk camping, it will change how it works let me describe it:
that same afk camper will simply be then in system just logged of
he will come from work or whatever and login
he will immediately cloak no one will notice this as there wont be time
he wont show up in local (no more local)
he will warp cite to cite find someone get close uncloak scram web and cyno
new group bridges in one will warp away providing a new camper for system in case original dies
repeat. the system activity will be wiped out no one will be able to defend against this.
there will never be any intel no mater the effort you put into it.
all pvp will become guard / hotdrop with vast advantage going to hotdroppers as their range is rather vast.
and as we have stated before pigeonholing a large group of ratters into a system kills profit.
removing local will make hotdropping effortless.
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Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 14:39:56 -
[15] - Quote
have you heard of dscan?
you got tonpress 2 buttons and it will tell if there is any ships unless theu are cloacked
those tengus and rattlesnakes will show up there and there is very few places they would be.
yes i believe this will be what will happen its just too easy
and i believe this beacause thats exactly what i will do if local gets removed. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 15:11:32 -
[16] - Quote
yeah because all those 4 dscan immune ships are gone be such a big problem.
the hell do those have to do with anything?
so they dont show up on dscan its not like i would have had much of an opportunity to
hotdrop em when they did either.
they are not hotdropper targets anyway
they are not ships viable for pve either
they do not matter in this. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 15:48:33 -
[17] - Quote
afk camping works because of local yes, take away local they will still be caping exept now it will cost those who use they system
being logged in wont have the same effect your right, my point is those camper will now become supereffective hotdroppers. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 00:37:13 -
[18] - Quote
well i have read, and been active here for the past dozen or so pages. (somewhat vehemently against dropping local. well mostly as that being the solution)
but ill play your game lets look at it from your point
you can catch me at a gatecamp, my ship doesnt cloak and i do like my escalations.
you can catch me if my attention slips from local
you can catch me if i happen to get scramed by npc frigate and you get in system
you can catch me if i get unlucky and stuck on something (least likely to happen)
you can catch me with good intel just be getting an interdictor between me and my safe point
all you need to do to win is press the i win button (cyno)
i on the other hand might be able to catch you if you are passing though a massive gate camp and you get too close to something
thats it
tell me about balance again?
describe to me the difficulty you face getting to the system.
i am rather certain alot more ratters die to hot droppers than hot droppers get cought entering systems or roaming
i see vindicators and tengus die all the time, lost a few tengus myself, most on gate camps, one because i didnt notice that red in local (it does happen especially in a combat site if you are in a tuff spot), once i got scrammed by 2 frigates moments before a red got into system and my site was the one he landed in, didnt kill em fast enough to be able to warp out. once a rather clever and skilled gang got a savepoint between me and my pos that was clever and the fleet of interceptors tore my tengu apart.
the only thing local unfailingly saves me from is that afk hotdropper because i wont use the system, there are many like it, i dont need to risk my ship as the risk outweighs the reward.
tell me about balance again?
convince me you must be completely undetectable to get more kills and how that is balance.
for the moment i stand by my argument that taking away local will mean the death of null sec pve, for no amount of vigilance will ever again matter, and the cost of living will outweigh the profit for all those who depend on pve for it. |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 02:10:12 -
[19] - Quote
Delegate wrote:
There are two reasons why people want perfect early-warning from local.
- Some players simply don't accept any possibility that the game mechanics may let them be ganked. They want local to be their safe heaven. I believe their arguments can mostly be ignored. If you want safe heaven you are welcome to stay in 1.0
- Some players are concerned with potentially unlimited threat posed by covert cyno. And I think this is a valid concern.
So...
Any one-sided GÇ£fixGÇ¥ here would be bad for the game.
/snip/
Delayed local should be accompanied with balances to covert cynos. Necessary tools are already there - CCP can monitor black ops use, and balance jump range/fatigue for these ships so that the risk they pose is GÇ£rightGÇ¥ (whatever risk level they consider right).
again with this ****?
i have read the damn thread from the beginning rereading the same thing every few pages does get tiresome tho.
first off i agree that any one sided solution will be devastating. my favorite one being REMOVE LOCAL
I also see delayed local as the solution failing because it will make the logoski traps broken.
so i agree there maybe a way to tweak the system, and it will have to be a combination of things. as changing any one thing will shift the balance so quickly it would give people whiplash.
but lets stop arguing the same thing over and over lets propose a damned solution like civilized people.
we agree there must be a number of them, i think we can agree that vigilance should matter,
so first off delayed local, lets start with that.
what would you have to give up as the aggressor for this not to break the game?
i think there should be a time delay of some sort,
so what sort of delays we thinking now?
delay before the said cyno becomes active and can be jumped to? which would allow the vigilant ratter some chance at maybe getting out of range and getting out, or possibly blaping the said cyno ship?
or maybe jump duration could be extended fro the blops and bridged frigs from blops that way the ratter might be able to survive lighting of the cyno but is still in a bit of a pickle? would make for some more interesting gameplay than i press cyno so i win.
i would also give the defenders a little of an advantage there say if your jumping in to system in which your alliance holds sov the delay doesn't take effect or at least reduce the delay per sov level? would make holding sov mean something.
so we have tackled local and the instant i win. sounds more balanced now?
so now we have ratter at increased risk, more of them will die but more of them will also survive getting tackled
this still unbalances the risk vs reward
i cant honetly propose increasing bounties with a red in system cause we will all just park one of our alts to increase the bounties.
so increase bounties across board for all null? seems like a bit much.
increase bounty based on the number of ships lost in system over the past 24 hours? we come back to us bringing alts and shooting them so that wont fly.
he lets go by increase bounties in system based on isk destroyed in system, this will bring incentive to both groups. it will bring make ratters want to stay more as there will be incentive to continue in a riski situation.
though it does beg the question of what would happen to incomes in systems that had something like B-R happen.
this would also give added incentive to conflict as systems at war will be quite considerably more profitable than those "Safe Heavens" |
Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 04:40:51 -
[20] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Or to put it differently if you died to a cloaking ship, that player was absolutely 100% not AFK when you died. This is a complete and total fact. It is indisputable...well assuming you are not as dumb as a stump.
your pulling my leg id have never though of that |
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Chatles
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 22:51:16 -
[21] - Quote
actually
AFK Clacker does not have to have a fleet 24/7
the problem is that to defend against him I must
and I will not subject my friends to wait for who knows k\how long for some whop might do something.
its boring and worse for the game than AFK cloaking |
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